Let us Understand the Chinese

GuruPrabhu
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby GuruPrabhu » 20 Apr 2009 03:10

PLAlovee Aiyar notwithstanding here is the latest from the People's Loving Army of China

China develops nuclear powered cookers, frying pans, Sauce Pans, Woks and other assorted kitchen equipment and distributes them free to the ungrateful Uighurs and Tibetians

New research suggests the Chinese nuclear tests from 1964 to 1996 claimed more lives than those of any other nation. Jun Takada, a Japanese physicist, has calculated that up to 1.4 million people were exposed to fallout and 190,000 of them may have died from diseases linked to radiation. The victims included Chinese, Uighur Muslims and Tibetans, who lived in these remote regions


It must be the evil Japanese capitalist imperialist Takada trying to discredit the great revolution, now there is talk of Chinese mongrel Prakash Karat ending up as PM. Gawd save us!

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby rundstedt » 20 Apr 2009 03:34

China through Indian eyes

PALLAVI AIYAR

http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2008/ ... ar-mirrors
Last edited by Gerard on 20 Apr 2009 03:46, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: include url

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 20 Apr 2009 05:29

Xpost
'1.9 lakh killed in China's nuclear tests'
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Worl ... 422249.cms

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Bade » 20 Apr 2009 06:06

Jackie Chan's China comments prompt backlash
Chan told a business forum in the southern Chinese province of Hainan that a free society may not be beneficial for China's authoritarian mainland.

"I'm not sure if it's good to have freedom or not," Chan said Saturday. "I'm gradually beginning to feel that we Chinese need to be controlled. If we're not being controlled, we'll just do what we want."

:)

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Omar » 05 May 2009 00:46

An interesting view of India from China...

China's PR Problem

The reader writes:

I'm an overseas Chinese and had great hope of free press in the West when I left China several years ago. But most of time I'm disappointed at how condescending and naïve are the Western medias when it comes to China, and I think many overseas Chinese have the same experience...

You've argued the better way Chinese authority may follow to improve their PR campaign to the outside world. But I think the communication has never been a one way traffic. There are also much work to do for the Western medias.

The attitude of arrogance and superiority aside, here are some interesting and apparent steps for the Western media to take to smooth the hostility between them and China.
1. Accept China's uniqueness (if not exceptionalism)
2. Recognize the legitimacy of the communist regime (at least partially in terms of the progresses they have made)
3. Tolerate the minor human rights problems and individual sufferings which are common in any developing country (not to mention China's hugeness and complexity)
4. Commend and encourage steps China made toward openness, cooperation and transparency (with less grudge and suspicion)

These may sound imposable or impractical for some in the West, but consider this: Are these applicable to India? I think these are exactly how the Western media treats India. They see India as a unique place with some nostalgia; they see Indian government as one of their own; they see India's human rights problem with great tolerance and understanding; they seem never hesitate to acclaim India as one of biggest power in the world in spite of its economy is far lagging behind that of China.

I don't want to complain about the mistreatment China has been receiving. My point is China is not the biggest threat, the mistrust and misunderstanding are. If you deep-down don't see the other side as equal, you'll never get the respect you hoped.

Because all these misunderstanding and hostility, the Western media and Chinese authority are both misleading their own audience to some degree, therefore further fuel the mistrust between the East and the West; and give more ammunition to communist regime to fan nationalism flame.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby svinayak » 05 May 2009 00:55

Omar wrote:
These may sound imposable or impractical for some in the West, but consider this: Are these applicable to India? I think these are exactly how the Western media treats India. They see India as a unique place with some nostalgia; they see Indian government as one of their own; they see India's human rights problem with great tolerance and understanding; they seem never hesitate to acclaim India as one of biggest power in the world in spite of its economy is far lagging behind that of China.

Because all these misunderstanding and hostility, the Western media and Chinese authority are both misleading their own audience to some degree, therefore further fuel the mistrust between the East and the West; and give more ammunition to communist regime to fan nationalism flame.


Great info.
This kind of image building in the eyes of the Chinese is the brilliant work of the western media. They can make anybody believe anything. Look how he compares Indian image in the western media.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby VinodTK » 05 May 2009 05:30


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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby RamaY » 05 May 2009 05:59



good riddence... GOI needs this thappad.

An intelligent leadership would expect this before hand and used the right strategy.

Even a dumb person like me know that I can take ADB loans for other projects across India and use internal resources to develop AP. If this UPA govt uses this reason to keep NE undeveloped, this leadership should be taken to court.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby harbans » 06 May 2009 09:17

These may sound imposable or impractical for some in the West, but consider this: Are these applicable to India? I think these are exactly how the Western media treats India. They see India as a unique place with some nostalgia; they see Indian government as one of their own; they see India's human rights problem with great tolerance and understanding; they seem never hesitate to acclaim India as one of biggest power in the world in spite of its economy is far lagging behind that of China.

I don't want to complain about the mistreatment China has been receiving. My point is China is not the biggest threat, the mistrust and misunderstanding are. If you deep-down don't see the other side as equal, you'll never get the respect you hoped.


Nice appropriate find! This exactly shows that the Chinese don't understand a free mindset that we have grown up in. India may not complain at every turn of the step with either China or Pakistan, these nations are proactive in their whines and aggressiveness. Witness it in the last 60 years. Tibet, Spratly's, Arunachal, Aksai Chin the list is long and does'nt reflect well on the Chinese govt as opposed to the Chinese people. Most of us realize that when the Chinese people have a govt that is truly representative of them, many of these issues will fade away. But China has never allowed that to happen. If Aksai Chin and Arunachal is so sensitive to the Chinese, i guess India should whine too at Kailash and Mansarover. These are 2 of the most holiest places for Hindu's and Shiv Bhakts in particular. They have been the centre of pilgrimages for the last 7000 years and more. Did the Indians ever whine that we want that place? That it's an affront that the Han who's got zilch to do with both these immensely holy places has control over them? With Tibet it was never a problem as they are co-culturists. With the Han CCP there is indeed a problem.

But then maybe we should start marking these places in our talks with Chinese leaders as sensitive and disputed. Why not start with Kailash and Mansarover. (For those who have'nt identified it's geographical location, i'd suggest google and find out where these lie..worth the effort really). Maybe when we start being proactive in our whines and sensitivity then the Chinese people will understand our position as obviously opposed to the CCP?

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby harbans » 06 May 2009 09:31

Just to prop what i said above, this 'disputed' is just a strategy for totalitarian regimes to keep softer nations on the backfoot. The Chinese claim on Tibet itself is so extremely fragile as to be laughable. It's claim on "South Tibet' again so. Why not raise the ante up and start claiming heritage land on sensitivity grounds. Make them disputed. Why not make seemingly outrageous demands on land and resources in these nations? If they laugh then we laugh at their claims. At least get them to have foreign undersecretary level talks on the disputed region of Kailash and Mansarover for starters..CCP strategy evidently on display in article below..and you'll notice the GOI is always always caught offguard.


Although China gave no explanation for its move at the ADB meeting, ADB sources in Delhi say that India's inclusion of a project in "disputed territory" prompted the Chinese decision.

China maintains that Arunachal Pradesh, which lies in India's northeast, is "southern Tibet". It lays claim to around 90,000 square kilometers of territory in India's northeast, roughly approximating the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh. During the 1962 border war, China advanced into and briefly occupied territory here before announcing a unilateral ceasefire and pulling back to the McMahon Line that India recognizes as its border with China. In 1987, there were serious skirmishes at Sumdorong Chu in Arunachal Pradesh.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KE05Df01.html

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby SSridhar » 14 May 2009 07:32

And the GoI blithely short-lists a Chinese telecom major for BSNL project. Look below for BSNL's stupid reasons

Don't award BSNL project to Huawei: IB
In fact, during the meet, both BSNL and the Department of Telecom (DoT) suggested that Huawei could be awarded the contract in south India since the region did not share sensitive borders with countries such as Pakistan, China and Bangladesh. Besides, DoT further argued, Huawei was already working with BSNL in south India.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby ramana » 15 May 2009 01:39

Book Review thread x-post by Acharya....

China between Empires: The Northern and Southern Dynasties (History of Imperial China)
by Mark Edward Lewis (Author), Timothy Brook (Editor)



# Hardcover: 352 pages
# Publisher: Belknap Press (February 15, 2009)
# Language: English
# ISBN-10: 0674026055
# ISBN-13: 978-0674026056

An original, useful, and very timely book, China between Empires is arguably the first single-volume comprehensive treatment for general readers of Chinese history between AD 220 and 589. Lewis writes clearly and with conviction and marshals an impressive array of evidence--historical, religious, technological, literary, and archaeological. It is a remarkable achievement, especially considering the extreme complexity of the period.
--Lothar von Falkenhausen, University of California, Los Angeles

Product Description

After the collapse of the Han dynasty in the third century CE, China divided along a north-south line. Mark Lewis traces the changes that both underlay and resulted from this split in a period that saw the geographic redefinition of China, more engagement with the outside world, significant changes to family life, developments in the literary and social arenas, and the introduction of new religions.

The Yangzi River valley arose as the rice-producing center of the country. Literature moved beyond the court and capital to depict local culture, and newly emerging social spaces included the garden, temple, salon, and country villa. The growth of self-defined genteel families expanded the notion of the elite, moving it away from the traditional great Han families identified mostly by material wealth. Trailing the rebel movements that toppled the Han, the new faiths of Daoism and Buddhism altered every aspect of life, including the state, kinship structures, and the economy.

By the time China was reunited by the Sui dynasty in 589 ce, the elite had been drawn into the state order, and imperial power had assumed a more transcendent nature. The Chinese were incorporated into a new world system in which they exchanged goods and ideas with states that shared a common Buddhist religion. The centuries between the Han and the Tang thus had a profound and permanent impact on the Chinese world.



This is the famous war of the three kingdoms period. What it created was the elite consolidation.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby NRao » 15 May 2009 19:07

SSridhar wrote:And the GoI blithely short-lists a Chinese telecom major for BSNL project. Look below for BSNL's stupid reasons

Don't award BSNL project to Huawei: IB
In fact, during the meet, both BSNL and the Department of Telecom (DoT) suggested that Huawei could be awarded the contract in south India since the region did not share sensitive borders with countries such as Pakistan, China and Bangladesh. Besides, DoT further argued, Huawei was already working with BSNL in south India.



India has to learn the hard way I guess:

India-China face-off worsens over ADB loan for Arunachal

Perhaps the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing - lack of policy as usual.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Suraj » 18 May 2009 10:05

Amidst the talk about 'my favourite party lost, boohoo' and 'my favourite party won, yay!', something else strikes me as not having risen in consciousness enough yet. The Chinese were big losers in these elections. Their ability to influence GoI has been wrecked. Their proxies have suffered significant, if not historic (in WB), setbacks on their home turf, with even greater losses possible in future. There is no noisy coalition with a powerful regional satraps calling the shots; the last time there was a larger mandate for a single party, the Chinese were just starting their first SEZs.

Imagine you are leader sitting inside Zhongnanhai. Your primary influence conduit in your large neighbour next door has been electorally decimated. The convenient cats paw next to it is busy scratching itself furiously. You are acutely aware that there's social unrest brewing under the surface of your own country. You have a mass of single young men in their 20s or older, thanks to the one-child policy and cultural preference for men.

Think like this person sitting in Beijing, not like an Indian. What would you do ?

I expect that we will be tested very soon. It doesn't have to be a big war, but rather, incursions or any sort of action that allow them to determine:
* determine how capable is the resolve of this government.
* get the external parties who favour this government to show their face, if not, their hand

The Chinese have negligible institutional memory dealing with a dispensation like the present. The last time a GoI had a large mandate was in Deng's early years, and they'll at least recall how we acted in Sumdurong Chu then.

Emotionally responding with 'OMG, the Chinese are going to attack and GoI will sit on its behind and suck their thumb! wail!' would defeat the purpose of this post, and be pointless nonsense. The purpose is to decipher their take, and their line of thinking. In several ways, their responses are predictable, e.g. they test each new US president with some action, like the spyplane incident in 2001, and the submarines tailing the USN carrier groups recently.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Pranav » 18 May 2009 17:34

I don't think it would make any sense from the Chinese POV to create trouble.

However Congress govt should resist any American advice to needle the Chinese. Americans are totally in debt to the Chinese, so they wouldn't do anything overt themselves, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind poking the dragon through others.

Suraj wrote:I expect that we will be tested very soon. It doesn't have to be a big war, but rather, incursions or any sort of action that allow them to determine:
* determine how capable is the resolve of this government.
* get the external parties who favour this government to show their face, if not, their hand


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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Lalmohan » 18 May 2009 19:04

suraj - the chinese need for land, resources, space, etc., will be better met from central asia or siberia rather than the himalayas no?

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Suraj » 18 May 2009 21:16

Lalmohan: This is not a matter of land and resources. It is a matter of 'keeping one in their place'. As I said, stop thinking from an Indian perspective, or even from 'need based' perspectives. They have always had a certain view of themselves, and of us; to grasp this you should not 'think like an Indian'. From 1949-62, despite the earnest warnings of the likes of Sardar Patel, GoI chose to follow a naive policy then.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Rahul M » 17 Jun 2009 08:36

I've no idea why this thread was trashed. I'm re-starting it.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby kancha » 17 Jun 2009 09:30

^^ It got trashed because the discussion generally veered off into the PRC political news thread.
If you remember, sometime back there was another thread titled "Paranoid Republic of China". That too got sidelined after an initial start.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2009 21:28


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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2009 21:39

We need a pristine "Indo-China" thread.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby ramana » 18 Jun 2009 21:40

Then start it and take ownership of it. Like report non sequitor psots and trolls. Even if by reputed members.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby ramana » 18 Jun 2009 23:40


Gerard
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Gerard » 19 Jun 2009 00:08

NRao wrote:We need a pristine "Indo-China" thread.


Why not create an "India-China News and Discussions" thread?

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Gerard » 20 Jun 2009 06:19


kancha
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby kancha » 20 Jun 2009 10:12

Dams in China on Brink of Collapse

More examples of Chinese Quality.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby NRao » 09 Jul 2009 20:47

Chinese steel executive held as Rio spy probe widens

Beijing on Thursday detained an executive of Shougang Group, a large Chinese steel group, in a widening probe that has already led to espionage allegations against four employees of Rio Tinto, the Anglo-Australian miner.

The Chinese government on Thursday defended its decision to detain the four Rio employees, one of them an Australian national, in a case that highlights the risks of doing business in China – especially for ethnically Chinese staff of foreign multinationals.

”Chinese authorities have in fact obtained evidence which proves they stole – for a foreign country – Chinese state secrets, which hurt China’s economic interests and economic security,” Qin Gang, a spokesman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, told a Beijing news briefing.

Australian foreign minister Stephen Smith said that Chinese authorities had agreed to allow Australian consular officials to visit Australian Stern Hu Friday.

Mr Hu and three Chinese staff of Rio’s iron ore trading team have been detained since the weekend. Mr Qin said it would not be in Australia’s interest to allow the matter to be “exaggerated or politicised”.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby NRao » 10 Jul 2009 06:13


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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Paul » 27 Sep 2009 02:30

Has anyone read Mehra's works....he is our own China scholar. It is a shame that we hear about China through pop analysis from the likes of Pallavi Aiyar than these scholars.

Mao: ‘the Lord of Misrule’
Review by Parshotam Mehra

Mao by Jonathan Spence. Phoenix paperback, London. Pages xviii plus 205. £ 6.99.

IN his lifetime and since his passing away almost a quarter century ago Mao, the "great helmsman" as he came to be called, attracted no end of attention. His achievements were prodigious: unifying with an iron hand a vast country torn apart by decades of bankrupt political leadership, foreign imperialism and war. And a virtually unending civil strife.

In the event, the birth of the People’s Republic of China which Mao proclaimed on October 1, 1949, was in itself no mean feat. What was more remarkable was that China soon emerged as a powerful state both at home and abroad. The Soviets courted and spurned him by turn. And yet dared not ignore him.

And after all the fire and bile it spewed for two decades and more, the mighty Uncle Sam eventually knocked at his door (1972) to seek a rapprochement. By then, Mao’s China had already taken its place as a great power and a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

In the bargain though, the price Mao exacted from his land and his people had few equals. The famine and the privations of the Great Leap Forward (1958-60) were unprecedented; millions more were to perish in the mighty cataclysm of the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution (1968-74). In the process, China’s polity and economy, and its traditional hierarchies, were turned upside down. Both in their nature and scope, and the havoc they wrought, these were titanic upheavals whose impact still reverberates in China. Nor has the last word been said on what elemental forces — for good or evil — they represented.

Some biographical details help to put Mao in perspective. He was born (1893) in a small farm village, Shaoshan, almost 30 miles south and slightly west of Changsha, the capital of the province of Hunan. It was a large peasant household of seven children, of whom only three survived, all boys and; Mao being the eldest. Despite his father’s lack of support, he managed some schooling and graduated to reading not only the traditional Confucian canon but a wide range of books, especially historical novels about his country’s past.

By the first decade of the 20th century, China’s ruling Qing dynasty was teetering on the edge of collapse. And when the massive military mutiny at Wuhan (October 10, 1911) toppled it, Mao briefly enrolled himself in the republican army. This was an aberration, for presently he joind a normal school, with its free tuition, cheap room and board. A five-year stint at the school gave Mao support and focus through his language and social science teachers he both admired and respected. And helped him to a clerical job in the Beijing University library. Not that it lasted. Mao was soon back in Changsha teaching history in a primary and middle school and was part of the "May Fourth (1919) Movement", keeping his students and the people up to date on developments. He campaigned hard too for the ouster of Hunan’s ruling militarist General Zhang Jingyao, organised a students’ association and turned into a small businessman, book-seller and school principal.

By the end of 1920, Mao was part of the Changsha Communist "small group" which had emerged in four other cities — Beijing, Wuhan, Jinan (in the province of Shandong) and Canton. And at a public meeting he violently contested Bertrand Russell’s formulation that while communism was alright, he was against "war and bloody revolutions". Mao’s dictum: "This is all very well in theory; in reality, it can’t be done". In July, 1921, he was to attend the first Communist Party congress in Shanghai which laid stress on the overthrow of the capitalist class and the establishment of a classless society with all means of production under "social ownership".

The Comintern-enforced "united front" between the Communist Party and the Guomindang did not carry much conviction with Mao and for a while he withdrew from all party work. By the spring of 1927, however, Chiang struck back — and hard. And with the help of a local secret society and criminal organisations, and the connivance of western powers, he swooped down on Communists and labour leaders. Thousands were killed in Shanghai alone and the Communist movement in the city was nearly wiped out.

Mao’s one lesson from this excruciating experience: the importance of adequate military force to back one’s political goals. Another, to develop the new base area, the Jiangxi Soviet, on the Fujian border where he was to spend the next five years (1930-34). Sadly, it was the subject of repeated assaults by Chiang who was determined to obliterate this main symbol of communist survival.

The decision to abandon it — to which Mao was not a party — was the first step in what later came to be called the Long March.

The March itself, hailed as a great achievement in Communist history was "a nightmare of death and pain" while it was in progress. The huge column of some 86,000 fleeing Communist troops was bogged down with equipment, party files and weapons. And exposed to devastating attacks by the Guomindang artillery and air force which carried away nearly half their number in casualties.

At the end of it all, a bare 7000-8,000 of the column survived to reach the village of Wayahao, in Shagnxi just south of the Great Wall (October, 1935). By the fall of 1936, the Communists had made their headquarters at Yan’an; Mao’s major preoccupation now was to preserve what was left of the Communist organisation and deepen his own hold over the party power.

Meanwhile, the Japanese onslaught in the wake of the notorious Marco Polo Bridge incident, near Beijing, persuaded Chiang to suggest a unified national resistance in which the Communists would also join. And Mao did, with a modicum of "enthusiasm" partly because his base area was insulated from the most desperate zones of fighting — the north China plain, Shanghai, along the Yangtse river.

Chiang and his men suffered the most; the "rape of Nanjing" (December 7) was a mortal blow as were the retreat to Wuhan and later deeper inland to Chongqing.

In a short breathing spell, Mao began to grapple with the adjustment of Marxist philosophy to the ground realities of the Chinese situation even as Lenin had earlier to Russian realities. And here he had the good fortune to avail of the inestimable services of a master theoretician, Chen Boda. The long years of war were indeed a triumph for the Communist Party which emerged stronger and more numerous with powerfully effective techniques of mass mobilisation in China’s rural settings. And genuine skill at the manipulation of belief through well-conceptualised propaganda.

By 1943, there was emerging in Yan’an what may best be called a "cult" of Mao; he was now chairman of the Communist Central Committee and of the Politburo at the same time. The men who had opposed him earlier now hailed him as "the helmsman of the Chinese revolution". An inner core of Mao’s senior colleagues now began to rewrite Chinese party history so that the chairman would forever be at the centre.

One by one, the other rivals of the present and the past were denigrated, their "incorrect lines" exposed and Mao’s wisdom pushed ever further back in time. The party constitution now stated without much ado that it took Mao’s "thought" as the guide for all its work and opposed all "dogmatic or empiricist deviations". As Spence puts it, Marxism was now "signified; the leader was the sage".

The end of the war and the Japanese surrender gave Mao the chance he had been long waiting for. From their Yan’an base and guerrilla units based in Shandong, the Communists moved troops into Manchuria, much faster than the KMT could. And with active Soviet help made deep inroads. In September, 1947, Mao issued what came to be seen as one of his most important pronouncements on military strategy and announced a nationwide counter-offensive to seize the initiative by moving from "interior lines" of warfare to "exterior lines".

His strategy was astonishingly successful; by 1948 Communist troops had totally routed Guomindang armies in Manchuria and were ready to move south. Before long, their military morale collapsed, dogged by civilian revulsion with the financial chaos brought about by rampant corruption. Beijing fell in January, 1949, Nanjing in April, Shanghai in May and Changsha in August. On October 1, 1949, climbing to a reviewing stand on the Tiananmen Gate, Mao proclaimed the birth of the PRC.

His visit to the Soviet Union (December, 1949-January, 1950) was a landmark of sorts. Spence reveals that Mao’s "most frank" exchange with Stalin was over Tibet when he confided that Chinese troops were "currently preparing" for an assault and asked to continue the loan of Soviet aircraft to ferry them. Stalin’s response that Tibetans "need to be subdued" pleased Mao.

It is "almost inconceivable", Spence argues, that Mao wanted the Korean war but once it had come, he followed the campaigns with "meticulous attention" and intervened "countless times" with his orders and tactical suggestions. As "instigator and manipulator" of the war in Korea, Mao slowly began to assume the same total roles in his "supervision" of the Chinese people. For by late 1953 he was not only chairman of the five million-strong CCP but of the Military Commission that controlled the armed forces as well as chairman of the PRC. Presently, the end of the Korean war and Stalin’s death (1953) left Mao in a virtually unchallenged position in the world communist pantheon.

The long text of Mao’s four-hour speech on "Contradictions" (February, 1957) was the harbinger of the Great Leap Forward campaign launched towards the end of the year. In the chairman’s mind, the GLF was to combine the imperatives of large-scale agriculture with a close utopian vision of the ending of distinctions between occupations, sexes, ages and levels of education. The end-result though was catastrophic; the 1960-61 famine alone claimed 20 million lives.

Sadly, as Spence underlines, Mao was now "more and more" divorced from the ground reality and seemed to care "less and less" about the consequences that might spring from his own "erratic" utterances. He had never visited any foreign land apart from the Soviet Union (1949 and 1957). And at home, he was increasingly intolerant of all opposition to his views. Deng was dismissed as editor of the party mouthpiece, the People’s Daily (June, 1957) and Marshal Peng Dehui consigned to the doghouse in the wake of the Lushan plenum (summer of 1959). The crisis deepened as the party continued to enforce its laws on grain procurement from fields "where almost no crops grew". The Maoist vision had "finally tumbled into a nightmare".

In the 1960s as he grew older, Mao had apparently further increased his isolation from his own people even as he "claimed to speak in their name". Later while he "did not precisely orchestrate" the Cultural Revolution, he "created an environment" that made it possible. The violence of the revolution was manifested at two levels. From the political centre controlled by a small group totally loyal to Mao; and unorchestrated revolutionary violence in a vaguely designated direction in search of rightists or "feudal remnants", "snakes and monsters" and "people in authority taking the rightist road". The number of victims from this uncoordinated violence was "incalculable". But "there were many millions", some killed; some committed suicide; some crippled or scarred emotionally for life.

Shortly before his death, the chairman rated his two achievements; battling Chiang for years and finally chasing him off to that "little island" of Taiwan. And making the Japanese return to their ancestral home. As for the cultural revolution it seemed unfinished, the task must pass to the next generation — peacefully if possible; in turmoil if necessary.

What will happen to the next generation if all fails? he asked. There may be a foul wind and a rain of blood. How will you cope? Heaven only knows?

A slim volume with less than 200 pages of text, it offers an excellent sum-up of Mao, his "thought" and all that it stood for. Based on the most up to date research, the objective is to show how Mao was able to rise so high and sustain his eccentric flight for so long. Mao’s "terrible accomplishment", it argues, was to seize "insights" from earlier Chinese philosophers and combine them with "elements" from western socialist thought. And to use both in tandem to prolong a long drawn-out adventure in upheaval.

Recalling a well-worn European tradition of the Middle Ages about a Lord of Misrule in great households who presided over the revels that briefly reversed and parodied the conventional social and economic hierarchies, Spence underlines that in sharp contrast to that tradition, Mao was to prolong his misadventure for far too long. More, this Lord of Misrule could not be "deflected" by criticisms based on conventional premises, his own sense of omniscience being too strong.

Refraining from any overall assessment, Spence furnishes a balanced and reliable array of facts and makes them speak for themselves. He offers an illuminating insight into Mao’s development through a close and careful examination of all that he read and wrote during his early formative years. One of the toughest and strongest in China’s long tradition of formidable rulers, Mao possessed "a relentless energy and a ruthless self-confidence"; his rhetoric and inflexible lead to the mobilisation of millions of his people.

Jonathan Spence, rated "one of the greatest historians" of China, has written extensively and authoritatively, both on the old and new China; among his better-known works two stand out: ‘’The Gate of Heavenly Peace" and "The Death of Woman Wang". Spence teaches Chinese history at Yale University and in 1994 was appointed honorary professor at the University of Nanjing.
Last edited by Rahul M on 27 Sep 2009 18:18, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited quote tags.

Atri
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Atri » 27 Sep 2009 17:52


ramana
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby ramana » 21 Oct 2009 23:05

Seminar India's May 2007 issue on Envisoning Asia:

http://www.india-seminar.com/2007/573.htm

ramana
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby ramana » 21 Oct 2009 23:08

Beijing Review:

http://www.bjreview.com.cn/



Check Expert's View for synopsis.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby ramana » 28 Oct 2009 04:52

X-postd....

RaviBg wrote:LOOK FOR THE METHOD - India is partly to blame for the dip in its relations with China - KP Nayar

...
It is perhaps not widely known in Delhi that at any given point, a political counsellor at the Chinese embassy on Shanti Path is constantly going through every item in the Indian press that is of interest to Beijing, line by line, even on weekends, putting individual commentators and analysts into ideological pigeon-holes. So when an Indian tells his Chinese interlocutor that India’s press is free, he accepts it without hesitation. But he does not accept that everyone who writes for the Indian press is free.

When the Olympic torch was travelling around the globe preparatory to the 2008 Beijing Olympics and was seized in Paris by a Frenchman, Beijing put on the internet a Google map of the exact location of the residence of the French citizen who vandalized the torch for the sake of Tibetans. If the Chinese can do this, would they not know the affiliations of those who mobilized an Indian media frenzy against China?

What is needed now, as the government tries to create a semblance of normalcy in Sino-Indian relations, is an acknowledgement that there is a method to what China is doing and that India needs to learn from this.
...



Assuming KPN is correct who are these Indian experts who are poisoning the well? Is he hinting at the English foreign owned media?

KLNMurthy
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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby KLNMurthy » 28 Oct 2009 05:05

ramana wrote:X-postd....

LOOK FOR THE METHOD - India is partly to blame for the dip in its relations with China - KP Nayar

...
It is perhaps not widely known in Delhi that at any given point, a political counsellor at the Chinese embassy on Shanti Path is constantly going through every item in the Indian press that is of interest to Beijing, line by line, even on weekends, putting individual commentators and analysts into ideological pigeon-holes. So when an Indian tells his Chinese interlocutor that India’s press is free, he accepts it without hesitation. But he does not accept that everyone who writes for the Indian press is free.

When the Olympic torch was travelling around the globe preparatory to the 2008 Beijing Olympics and was seized in Paris by a Frenchman, Beijing put on the internet a Google map of the exact location of the residence of the French citizen who vandalized the torch for the sake of Tibetans. If the Chinese can do this, would they not know the affiliations of those who mobilized an Indian media frenzy against China?

What is needed now, as the government tries to create a semblance of normalcy in Sino-Indian relations, is an acknowledgement that there is a method to what China is doing and that India needs to learn from this.
...





That last para sounds really mysterious, elliptical and enigmatic. What on earth does Nayar mean? That China knows the name and address of everyone in India who is writing against them, and that GOI should learn from it? Learn what, exactly?

Is it just a case of bad writing by this Nayar or is there some sort of code here?

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby ramana » 28 Oct 2009 05:10

He is saying there is a big lifafa brigade that is souring the realtions by polemic articles and should be negated. When GOI says press is free, the Chinese know how free as they track the reports. Only people who dont know are the mango people in India.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Kanson » 28 Oct 2009 06:00

Sadly, there has been a pattern to such lies in sections of the New Delhi media about Sino-Indian relations and such deliberate distortions have been building up for some years now, slowly poisoning the atmosphere between the two countries in public opinion, less so in bilateral engagement.


I dont know whether KP Nayar knows that the recent ruckus in Indian media is preceded by Chinese official/semi official magazine talking about balkanizing India. There are several articles that poured venom. If the CT that KP elucidates to be followed who was to be blamed for the Chinese Media digression. Is KP thinks India should always wag their tails when Chinese rapid dogs bark ? Offence if the best defence.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby svinayak » 28 Oct 2009 06:05

Kanson wrote:
I dont know whether KP Nayar knows that the recent ruckus in Indian media is preceded by Chinese official/semi official magazine talking about balkanizing India. There are several articles that poured venom. If the CT that KP elucidates to be followed who was to be blamed for the Chinese Media digression. Is KP thinks India should always wag their tails when Chinese rapid dogs bark ? Offence if the best defence.


He must also write a piece that Chinese media is also under some agenda that they have published bad news about India.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby ramana » 28 Oct 2009 10:42

X-posted...
Rony wrote:Singha Ji,


The Satavahanas and later the Cholas transplanted their genes and culture in South East Asia long before Zheng He even learned how to navigate.If you want to make comparision, its more like the Zheng He reading the materials left over by the Satavahanas and Cholas.


But reading your comments on Tamil-Chinese comparisions, I remember a real life comment. I have a chinese friend, a phd in international relations from a canadian Uni and well versed in India-China relations.During a friendly chat after 2-3 pegs , we were talking about usual India-China comparisions.He told me that there are lot of stereotypes between Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese.Northen chinese - more fair, more beautiful.Southern chinese - more intelligent, more educated, more developed. Reminded me of our own North/South stereotypes.He also said that once the northen china was over run by mongols and later by manchus, the chinese civilizational core slowely shifted to southern china.Again quite similar to what happened to India in the past-the Indian civilizational core shifting to the south during the muslim rule.


I then asked him what are his general impressions on Indians.He was already in his 5th peg but looked steady and this what he said exactly .


"North Indians are easy to handle.They are emotional but no brain like Northern Chinese.Look at Nehru.He was no match for Mao (born in Hunan, southern china).But South Indians are tough nuts to crack.They look calm and innocent but they are very calculative and intelligent and can be ruthless at times.You know.. that guy who bought reforms... Raaao .." ( Me to him : Narshimha Rao ? ) ." Yes.. Yes.. He is from South India right ? which state ? ( Me to him : Andhra ) .
Isnt he the one who crushed the rebellions in Kashmeerr and Puuuunjab ?. People like him are the real danger. Jiang (Zemin) (born in Jingsu, Northen china) was no match for Raoo ".


I was about to change the topic and he again burst open .


"You know , the only time the chinese lost to Indians in battle happened in 1967 nathu la clash ? Then your army was lead by a South Indian general ? ( Me to him : General Kumaramangalam ? ) . "May be . I dont remember his exact name ". "Is it again a coincidence that the only time the Indians went on a offensive againt the chinese, then also it was led by a south Indian general.General Sunderji is a south Indian right ? "


By this time i had enough and i chnaged the topic back to Northen Chinese Vs Southern Chinese.



I wanted to take this just as another drink talk , but what really worried me more than his attempt to pit everything in North Vs South was his observations and knowledge about India. How many of us can name the chinese generals during the 1962 , 1967 and 1986 clashes with India ?


The chinese may shout from the rooftops that they dont care about India and resent about India-China comparisions, but its all only for show and propoganda purposes. They are keenly studying India and its impact on them. It is time for us to study about the chinese people and their impact on us and see if there are any divisions we can exploit.

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby Jarita » 12 Nov 2009 09:08

Worked with dozens of Chinese people from China and this is my experience of them

- Hyper nationalistic: Believe that China can do no wrong; genuinely believe that PRC has never attacked any nation in the world and has only defended the country; gong li type of mass tears after the earthquake; females developed big crushes on the soldiers :)
- Universally despise the Japanese: Believe that the Japanese are innately sadistic and have human emotions lacking (due to the Nanking affair)
- Are usually shocked when they read/learn abt Chinese atrocities in Tibet, cultural revolution, Tianaman sq
- Can truly develop multiple personalities i.e., cannot be trusted. Youll think that they really like and respect you while they are stabbing you behind the back. You have to connect all dots with them
- Very insular - Very rarely can they be "friends" with non chinese (I am talking abt Chinese from china); like their food, language etc
- Truely brainwashed through the education system in China i.e., believe the shite that the CPC dishes out
- Groupthink i.e., one person stays late for work, the rest of the gang will stay with that person
- I believe that as a people they have an inferiority complex because they lap up the China spurt (don't know how to explain it better)
- Completely adopted western culture i.e., clothes, white wedding dresses etc
- The gals universally love western guys :)
- In Shanghai very common for middle class women to hook up with a western man (almost a status symbol) and be kept by that man

I'll put up some slides later

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Re: Let us Understand the Chinese

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 Nov 2009 09:48

The gals universally love western guys :)


The stated preference for Westerners in Oriental lonely hearts ads is significantly down.

Of course it cannot be just due to a perceived drop in affluence-it does not take much greenback moneyto keep a rural Chinese happy, I imagine.

It is that this economic collapse of the West presages the passing of the era of white privilege-even the Chinese sense that.


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