India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

RayC
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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby RayC » 20 Feb 2009 14:56

Because, if we defeat them and leave them alone, they will regroup after 30 years and cause pain in our ass again. Until we exert control over provinces of Kashmir, Punjab, Sindh and Baloochistan we cannot eliminate the problem. Indian army needs to be deployed there for about 2-3 generations. At least 3 generations of children should be brought up under Indian nationalist educational system and religious values of completely Indianized version of Islam. These provinces, particularly Punjab should be kemalized, this can't be done without presence of Indian military. If this is done for 3-4 generations under vigilant Indian leadership which is not shy of expressing their Hindu identity, problems will start decreasing.

Furthermore, why should a western OR oriental power have presence in South asia in long term? It is better that we control that region.


If India takes them over, will they sit still?

Think that over.

Do you think the Indian Muslims will sit back and watch the show?

Add the population!

And if they start an insurrection in India, think of what you have bought for yourselves! What is happening in SWAT and FATA will be happening in India!

The Muslim mentality has to be understood. They are not sheep as some are here in this country. Give them their due. Even though they are a minority in India, they have ensured that their rights are not trampled and their separate identity maintained and respected by the others! Not a mean task, I would say.

Each one in Pakistan thinks he is a Khalifa and his sect or tribe is superior to all others! And since there are many faultlines in Pakistan, this could be nurtured and Pakistan will self destruct.

If I may remind, India is not a Hindu country! And currently, a Sikh and a Roman Catholic call the shots and so I daresay there is no vigilant Indian leadership which is not shy of expressing their Hindu identity as they are not Hindus!

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 20 Feb 2009 18:47

The US is falling into its deep nidra - again. They talk of regional solutions, but when it comes to their own involvement they have a very singular, egocentric, solution/s.

At times super powers too must have a broader mindset. Else they repeat mistakes.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 20 Feb 2009 18:55

WRT Iran as an alternative route, FT is reporting that Iran has enough uranium to build a single nuke (details in "International nuclear watch & discussion" thread), more Ur than was previously they thought Iran may have.

Bye bye alternative.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby John Snow » 20 Feb 2009 22:33

"Earlier it was TSP Bum and Indian retalliation thereby world power intervention"

New Rule

"What will Indian Muslims think do if India does the right thing" A new Bogey Man is born

In between we had this still born Bogey Man called
"War is expensive, make wine which is exotic" :mrgreen:

As in hyderabadi "Chele ne do Balkishen" or as they say all over India and in Nai delli chalta hai

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ShauryaT » 20 Feb 2009 22:41

RayC Sir: I think in the previous page, you may have inadvertently changed my post. So, your reply to my post is now my post :-?

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2009 22:43

RameshVarma wrote:http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/afghanistan/090128/spurned-us-karzai-eyes-russia

I am sorry if this link is already posted or discussed....
I think Karzai is being pictured as corrupt because of increasing affinity towards Russia and Russia is also showing considerable interest in this part of the region. Of late Russia is also sending strong signals that it is back into the game (Soviet Era...).Which makes Afghanistan all the more important to US to maintain its sphere of influence in the Central Asia to contour the increasing threat of Russia and China.

The way I look at things the US is there to stay in Afghanistan for at least another decade.


Welcome RameshVarma. Thanks for the link.

May you contribute to the collective knowledge of the Forum!

ramana

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2009 22:45

One thing to mull over is the relationship of Democratic chatterati and Karzai?

I wonder if there is lack of atmospherics between them. Can someone go thru the web and see what Reidel etc have said about Karzai in the past?

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 20 Feb 2009 23:54

IF Karzai cleans up, Obama should not have any issues.

It is interesting how the US is making decisions within A'sthan to a great extent by herself.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ramana » 21 Feb 2009 00:11

NRao wrote:IF Karzai cleans up, Obama should not have any issues.

It is interesting how the US is making decisions within A'sthan to a great extent by herself.



What does that entail or mean? IOW whats expected behavior of Karzai by the US?

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ShauryaT » 21 Feb 2009 04:38

Seems like Riedel has spent many years with the ISI folks. Expect no great changes. TSP is going to milk it again.

Tougher policy toward Pakistan?
Pakistan looms as the next big crisis, doesn ' t it?
Pakistan is crucial. It was a base for Al Qaeda or its adherents even before 9/11. Now Pakistan itself is under attack. It finds itself both patron and victim. But there is hope. Pakistan now has a democratically elected civilian government. The new government is on a learning curve. But its leaders clearly recognize the dimensions of the problem they face. We have to work with them, and give them all the help we can. That will need very sophisticated handling. Personally, I'd like to see us mount a Marshall Plan for Pakistan and Afghanistan. Not just economic support, but a real effort to bring education and the other basics of a modern society that they desperately need.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 21 Feb 2009 04:46

ramana wrote:What does that entail or mean? IOW whats expected behavior of Karzai by the US?


The major issue has been corruption and drugs.

The Bush "doctrine" to establish a democratic entity seems to have been abandoned by US thinkers in general. They should be OK with a system that does not rock the boat in any way - socially, economically or religiously.

Karzai, as it stands today, cannot deliver on that even IF the US pours billion for "reconstruction". A'stan cannot be expected to change her jirga, etc, the decentralised model is there to stay.

The corruption and drug deals essentially are a black hole and to make matters worse buys nothing for the US. Such things have to go.

I think the US will allow any form of government in A'stan provided that G does not cause problems anywhere.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ShauryaT » 21 Feb 2009 10:45

NRao wrote:The major issue has been corruption and drugs.
Afghanistan has always been drug prone. The difference in money in a war ravaged economy to the farmer is significant enough that when all governance has broken down and no one cares then growing dugs is the easier option.

To address the issue, the US forces in Afghanistan wanted to apply the Columbian solution, spray from the air. Although effective, it would have destroyed other crops and would have destroyed the farmer's income only without disturbing anyone else in the value chain. The ISAF refused to go from farm to farm to destroy the Opium. The reliance on war lords to govern meant that they were part of the problem. First, one ties the hands of the only government they have and then blame that leader, when your own policies are a big part of the problem. Strange are the ways of the mighty and powerful.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ASPuar » 21 Feb 2009 12:51

My response to this idea, is a cautious 'Yes'. Conditionally. Provided that we are able to provide the right logistical support, and we have an overall gameplan.

The underpinning focal point of any deployment should be hearts and minds. We want to be able to come there to stay. Thus, the IA should deploy in a certain number of regions, and bring along the GREF/Construction Coys to rebuild infrastructure to make the lives of the local people better. Work with them to achieve what we need to.

In that sense, the IA can generate the public space, the security required, for society to get up off its feet, and start working again.

We should be ready to provide medical colleges, hospitals, schools, colleges, engineering institutes, and training to Afghan levies which will take over from us.

Institution building would have to be the order of the day. Thats mt idealistic side speaking.

My realistic side says that every operation we undertake, no matter how nobly our troops act, and no matter how many casualties we incur, we will be painted as babykillers, civilian killers, and anti-muslim crusaders.

It will cause rumblings in our own interior.
Last edited by ASPuar on 21 Feb 2009 13:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ramana » 21 Feb 2009 12:53

Humayun was called 'posto'. Means opium eater. Thats how he died by falling from the staircase. So drug cultivation is age old there.

If it isnt a Mohmadzai it wont cut ice with the Pashtuns.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ASPuar » 21 Feb 2009 13:09

IMO, Afghanistan doesnt need, and cant sustain a democracy. What it needs is a Kemam Ataturk, or other such figure. If not something like that, then direct rule from somewhere. The Afghan understands force. He does not respect a whisy washy democrat with his hands tied behind his back. Afghanistan needs to be ruled.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 21 Feb 2009 21:58

Afghanistan has always been drug prone. The difference in money in a war ravaged economy to the farmer is significant enough that when all governance has broken down and no one cares then growing dugs is the easier option.


There are two factors: first the Karzai problem and the Afghani problem. Like in a Venn diagram, there is overlap.

The prior refers to Karzai's relatives in drug deals and by extension throwing their weight around on political matters (thus the corruption). Addressing this problem is to get rid of Karzai (per US).

Then there is the more common and well understood Afghani issues of decentralised governance, war lords and corruption. This is more a generic problem than a Karzai related problem. Although the Karzai problem is an offshoot, or more perhaps a instance, of this.

On Colombian solution: I am not familiar about it in A'stan. I know that the US proposed alternative crops as a solution (and they have proposed a crop or two, although I forget which one it is as I post, with pretty much guaranteed returns - better than opium).

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Feb 2009 03:48

NRao wrote:There are two factors: first the Karzai problem and the Afghani problem. Like in a Venn diagram, there is overlap.

The prior refers to Karzai's relatives in drug deals and by extension throwing their weight around on political matters (thus the corruption). Addressing this problem is to get rid of Karzai (per US).
Yes, per US. The jokers are covering their a*s. Karzai's brother is involved in drugs is the best, these jokers can come up with and all of us are supposed to believe it and ignore all US actions and inactions. We really do not need to give these turds any break on the issue.

Quite frankly, looking at their record and also looking at the contours of their forward plan, I simply have no hopes of any good coming out of the US plan in Afghanistan. They simply do not get it. The Taliban exists, only because of the machinations of the TSPA and the ideological premise of the existence of TSP. You cannot give these turds more money and hope to control the problem. They already have tried that and it has gone nowhere.

Most likely.

- They will give TSP more money to control the Taliban problem
- They will remove Karzai to protect their own inactions
- The only good they do is they know how to fight and hence will pump in more troops in the region, killing more Americans and innocent Afghans, instead of killing the turds across the border
- India will eventually pay the price for a TSP controlled Afghan government

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby kasthuri » 22 Feb 2009 07:52

The US has the money to throw at TSP and thinks that it will keep them safe...and as long as TSP is getting money it will try to keep the US happy. There is no end to this nonsense as I see it.

‘Washington talks’ to influence future US strategy

Besides the United States, which is hosting the talks, both Afghanistan and Pakistan are sending senior civil and military officials to participate in the talks.

The United States had also invited India but India has declined the offer. Although New Delhi said it was not coming because it did not want to interfere in Afghanistan’s internal affairs, media reports from the Indian capital said India was unhappy because it was only offered a ringside seat.

An Indian official told reporters in New Delhi that India will watch the proceedings as an ‘interested bystander.’

India, however, has sought and received assurance from the United States that there will be no talks on Kashmir during the policy review.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 22 Feb 2009 20:44

India will be given a ringside seat until India agrees to include Kashmir.

This IMHO is a very dangerous game that Holbrooke is playing.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 22 Feb 2009 20:48

Most likely.

- They will give TSP more money to control the Taliban problem
- They will remove Karzai to protect their own inactions
- The only good they do is they know how to fight and hence will pump in more troops in the region, killing more Americans and innocent Afghans, instead of killing the turds across the border
- India will eventually pay the price for a TSP controlled Afghan government


That in short history repeating itself. At some point in time there will another shoe bombar, etc and the US will pay the greatest amount.

WRT, I think it will have to got to the old NA model. When the US walks out Russia, Iran, etc cannot stand by.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby kasthuri » 22 Feb 2009 20:53

NRao wrote:WRT, I think it will have to got to the old NA model. When the US walks out Russia, Iran, etc cannot stand by.


NRao Ji: Which country do you think will have a maximum repercussion if US exits, India, Iran or Russia?

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby brihaspati » 22 Feb 2009 21:09

Forced or otherwise, India taking a ringside seat now is actually good for several reasons :
(1) when Unkil exits, its inevitable mess will not have to be borne on Indian shoulders
(2) current GOI does not have the political will, vision and military preparations to undertake required responsibilities in AFG
(3) if at all any gutsy GOI or rather LOI turns up in the immediate future, then they have tactical freedom to plan and forge alliances towards a much more comprehensive plan with Indian interests firmly in mind.

US exit, immediately impacts in decreasing order - India, Russia and Iran. The Talebs are not going to touch Iran now. Russia has a greater problem in that it may feel forced to backup Karazai which would be bad calculation for Tajiks closer to border. They may also be milked by the Tajiks to stabilize their sub-frontier within AFG. India is affected the most, since the next target for expansion by the Talebs is the remainder of TSP and thence onwards to India.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 22 Feb 2009 22:11

Which country do you think will have a maximum repercussion if US exits, India, Iran or Russia?


The UK.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 22 Feb 2009 22:26

The Talebs are not going to touch Iran now.


JMTs.

A US exit does not mean Talibs come to power, but, more like sharing power. The twist is in the US pipe dream of a combo government: Good Talibs + non-Karzai gov of A'stan!!

Yo, this gov can be far better than the one Mush, et al ran or the one right now in Pak.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby ShauryaT » 23 Feb 2009 05:07

NRao wrote:That in short history repeating itself. At some point in time there will another shoe bombar, etc and the US will pay the greatest amount.

WRT, I think it will have to got to the old NA model. When the US walks out Russia, Iran, etc cannot stand by.
No, no, they are not that st*pid, are they? This time they will do it with a civilian Pakistani government!

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 23 Feb 2009 07:14

Well, ................Mumbai terrorists 'had 320 targets around world'

According to Western intelligence sources cited in the report, only 20 of the 320 targets were in India.


Ouch. Wonder who is more concerned.

The point being why would an LeT mind even think about India when they can corner a UK? You know, the Islamic flag dream.

India is a two bitter, which can be taken whenever they want.

A US leaving A'stan would be (correctly?) interpreted as a defeat of the US. Then which ego will let such a big fish go?

TSPA has even a bigger ego sitting on the sidelines who wants to ascend the throne - even if a proxy is installed (free consulting in the name of Islam).

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 23 Feb 2009 07:18

Mumbai just 1 among 320 global locations on LeT hit-list

While jihadists are drawn from locales like Chechnya and Iraq, the organisation raises its funds from the Gulf, Europe, Australia and the US. Intelligence agencies here estimate that LeT maintains terrorist presence in 21 countries worldwide with the intention of either supporting or participating in what ideologue Hafiz Saeed has called the perpetual “jihad against the infidels.”

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby Bhaskar » 23 Feb 2009 08:07

Last edited by Gerard on 23 Feb 2009 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: copyright

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby RayC » 23 Feb 2009 15:32

ShauryaT wrote:RayC Sir: I think in the previous page, you may have inadvertently changed my post. So, your reply to my post is now my post :-?


My apologies!

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Feb 2009 15:38

i think that most people (at a state level) are missing a trick here, the old TSPA game of riding the jehadi tiger is over. the tiger is well on its way to crunching down on the neck of the TSPA and will soon suffocate it. the bigger game is khilafat and that is gaining strength even as the rest of us are stuck in our old mindset of borders and states and rational operators. this thing is borderless, stateless and is driven by ideology with little rationality that we understand. 'radicalised' muslims all over the world are drawn to it, its the new comintern, the new spanish civil war, its the great shining ideological war that these guys are intent on fighting. they will devour their own old order in the process, but they will come after all of us.

we should give more thought to fencing in afpakia and letting them stew. the iranians and russians will not mind that solution i think.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 23 Feb 2009 20:25

The solution is THE problem.

The memo that the Pak government has already made a deal with those the Pak Army is fighting has obviously not reached Secret US unit training commandos in Pak: Report. Who is there to fight?

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 23 Feb 2009 20:42

NYTimes :: U.S. Unit Secretly in Pakistan Lends Ally Support

BARA, Pakistan — More than 70 United States military advisers and technical specialists are secretly working in Pakistan to help its armed forces battle Al Qaeda and the Taliban in the country’s lawless tribal areas, American military officials said.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2009 21:08

Image
The Deputy Defence Minister of Afghanistan at the BR Stall

^Any plans of increasing the troop count?

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby vsudhir » 23 Feb 2009 22:35

Lalmohan wrote:i think that most people (at a state level) are missing a trick here, the old TSPA game of riding the jehadi tiger is over. the tiger is well on its way to crunching down on the neck of the TSPA and will soon suffocate it. the bigger game is khilafat and that is gaining strength even as the rest of us are stuck in our old mindset of borders and states and rational operators. this thing is borderless, stateless and is driven by ideology with little rationality that we understand. 'radicalised' muslims all over the world are drawn to it, its the new comintern, the new spanish civil war, its the great shining ideological war that these guys are intent on fighting. they will devour their own old order in the process, but they will come after all of us.


Very well put. Agree 100%

we should give more thought to fencing in afpakia and letting them stew. the iranians and russians will not mind that solution i think.


Onlee TSP and its sponsors (USA, KSA and PRC) would mind. And so far they're the ones calling the shots, no?

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby svinayak » 24 Feb 2009 02:41

Lalmohan wrote:i think that most people (at a state level) are missing a trick here, the old TSPA game of riding the jehadi tiger is over. the tiger is well on its way to crunching down on the neck of the TSPA and will soon suffocate it.

Dont write it off soon.
Uncle is also riding the tiger in the shadow zone pretending to clean up the jihadi tiger.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 24 Feb 2009 22:05

Germany Appoints Special Envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan

Flavour of the month .................

Germany on Monday followed the lead of US and Britain in announcing the appointment of Bernd Mützelberg as a special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Mützelburg, 65, who is the current German ambassador to India, will be taking leave from his embassy duties to focus on his new role.

Mützelburg's appointment will "further intensify Germany's diplomatic engagement in Afghanistan and Pakistan," the foreign ministry in Berlin said in a statement.


I think BR should appoint one too.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 24 Feb 2009 22:07


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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 24 Feb 2009 22:12

Top Pakistani, Afghan Diplomats Visit Washington

Top diplomats for Pakistan and Afghanistan are in Washington for talks with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

The discussions are expected to focus on U.S. policy in the Pakistan-Afghanistan border regions, where the United States believes terrorists linked to the Taliban and al-Qaida are based.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby NRao » 24 Feb 2009 22:13

US to elicit Pak, Afghanistan views before adopting new policy for the region

Washington, Feb.24 (ANI): The US would take into account the viewpoints of Pakistan and Afghanistan before deciding on a new strategy for the region.

The US State Department spokesperson, Robert Wood has said that Washington would certainly want Pakistan and Afghanistan to have their say, before the Obama administrations review of policy towards the region.

We think it is important that Pakistan and Afghanistan, their governments, feed into that review, The Daily Times quoted Wood, as saying.

He said it was necessary to have a wide variety of views because the issue is very intricate, and cannot be worked out without involving all the sides.

The US officials will present their position and listen to the views of the visiting foreign ministers of the two neighbouring countries, Wood said, while referring to the scheduled visit of the delegates from Pakistan and Afghanistan.

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Re: India to consider sending 120,000 troops to Afghanistan

Postby Bhaskar » 24 Feb 2009 22:25

India not to attend conference on Afghanistan with Pakistan, US
http://www.aaj.tv/news/World/129854_detail.html

I don't think india would be sending troops to Afghanistan...


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