Strategic leadership for the future of India

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 30 Oct 2009 08:13

Brihaspati,

The 5-10 year timeline seems about right, though it is more likely to happen at the lower end of that timeline. I think that major system shocks are neccesary to wake up complacent people, and the indian government/babu/system setup is literally asking for it. We required 1962 to crack JN's facade of lies.

I do not think that anything short of the real thing will wake indians.

But if any of these hits come to pass, it will come down to chaos or a strong leader. Considering our history, the strong leader type is the better option.

There is the issue of 'black swan' type factors, but also many 'gray swans'.

1. China has serious problems- both demographically and economically. Their model of development was based on mercantilism and now their big customers are broke. Can they keep up the charade for long? Will they use war to distract their population, especially tens of millions of single men? (something will happen in under five years)

2. TSP is closer to the brink.. are all of their nukes secured? I am not so sure.. fundamentalist sympathizers are legion in their armed forces. Will one or two nukes find their way to an indian port city? (if it happens, maybe under 3 years)

3. We really do not know what the economic dislocations in the west will eventually cause. Their population is older and the current economic system is unworkable at 10 years, but more likely in 2-5 years from now. How will they try to reflate the system? They cannot use their old models- though the majority have not accepted that idea.

The third grey swan offers a great opportunity if we had a better leadership/ administration/ legal setup.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 30 Oct 2009 18:10

I may be wrong but given the high inertia of India, the major transition will take at least 15-16 years more.. 2025-2026 is the time when oil-money's importance will begin its fast decline.. What is agreed however that after 25 years, India will be drastically different in terms of economics, society, technology and geography.

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 30 Oct 2009 18:35

Chiron,

At the rate and direction we are all going, indians will have to change within a few years.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 30 Oct 2009 19:18

ss_roy wrote:Chiron,

At the rate and direction we are all going, indians will have to change within a few years.

Indians will have to change in few years yes.. But there are strong forces which are making their last firm stand to maintain status-quo (INC is one of them, so is BJP). Add to that the foreign funding which is constantly being pumped in in order to maintain status quo in Indic society.

Without disruption in the flow of that money, the change will not occur. To disrupt the flow of that money, there are certain pre-requisites. One of them is decrease in dependence on middle-east for oil. The decrease in oil-money's importance is linked with development of novel technologies in west which can supplant the existing infrastructure and other stuff.

All this require at least 10 years to mature. plus 5 years for effects to percolate in India... so 2025 onwards..

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 30 Oct 2009 19:58

Chiron,

The old order will never give up willingly, humans are not rational as a group. The 'infrastructure' needed to maintain status quo will not survive the next 5-10 years. Linearizing historical trends works only if the system is near steady state conditions, and the world has left the steady state about 6 years ago.. the changes are now accelerating and changing direction. Events with an extremely low probability even a few years ago are now either real or have a significant non-zero probability.

It is these previously low probability events (and their secondary, tertiary effects) that are both unpredictable and interesting.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 31 Oct 2009 01:48

Brihaspati ji: Don't you think we would need a commission like 'Creel Commission' to influence the people of India?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Nov 2009 03:23

SwamyG ji,
"alternative ideas" need to be placed in the rapidly expanding "marketplace of ideas". If they are attractive and serve their purpose, they will be accepted and multiplied beyond our imagination. Ideas once found to be effective are almost impossible to destroy - and can only be fought on in the realm of ideas to keep them at bay if they are really destructive. I think each and every avenue for the people to face such ideas should be taken up. Change truly is in the air. I am probably the one with a longer term perspective of almost 25-30 years. Most here, and maybe more realistically, be thinking of much shorter ranges than the 2035-40 culmination of our aspirations that I see.

For me the shorter range periods are periods of overt retreat for us - while we consolidate and lose "fat" and cancerous tissue through attrition. These are the next 10 years. The second decade will be a period of regrouping and realignments - where many now appearing to be enemy will join ranks with us and some now "friends" will turn enemies. The third decade is the culmination of the struggle, which I see ourselves as winning. But probably also at a huge human cost and destruction. But the entire lesson of the Mahabharatam teaches us not to despair of destruction and human cost - but to face it for a higher purpose and come out of it with a new and fresh reconstruction of our society.

I personally may only experience the destruction, but not the reconstruction. But I have a deep conviction that our next generations will be more than adequate for the task.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 01 Nov 2009 04:46

There is a line in "Enter the Dragon" movie

Enter the Dragon movie wrote:The enemy has only images and illusions behind which he hides his true motives. Destroy the image and you will break the enemy.

Putting a spin on it, one should be able to create positive image and illusion, don't you think? The true motive could be altruistic.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 01 Nov 2009 04:48

Rahul Mehta wrote:1. Frustrated poor will go towards Maoists type elements
2. Frustrated middle class men, rich will say "lets us make some Modi-like a dictator"

How is this different from what exists today? In the absence of democratic system like Right To Recall, the Prime Minister and other politicians are the equivalent of dictators at all times other than the election. I think we saw people expressing preference for this in the 2009 election where many people voted for MMS over Advani.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Nov 2009 04:13

PM's speech at the HT leadership Summit, 10/30/09

http://pmindia.nic.in/lspeech.asp?id=838

First, that our challenges in nation building are primarily at home. And that these are best addressed by ensuring sustained and inclusive economic growth and development. We do face external and global challenges. The global slowdown is a reality, rise of terrorism is also a reality and we have to face these challenges. But I sincerely believe that they are nowhere as daunting as the ones we face at home. If we get our house in order, if we can liberate each and every citizen of this free nation from the tyranny of poverty, ignorance and disease, there is no external challenge that we cannot overcome.

Secondly, I have said here before that our composite culture is based on our rejection of the notion of an inevitable clash of civilizations. Our philosophy of “vasudhaiva kutumbakam” has encouraged us to accept pluralism as the natural order of all civilized existence. Freedom, democracy, pluralism and secularism go together. You cannot have one without the other.

My third submission to you has been that we seek to live in peace with our own neighbourhood and with the world at large. We have always been and wish to remain good neighbours and good global citizens. I do believe our destiny is intrinsically linked with that of all our neighbours. We seek good relations with each one of them. I have repeatedly said that we see our security and prosperity in their progress and stability. We sincerely wish to resolve all outstanding issues with our neighbours through dialogue and in the spirit of partnership and friendship that should rightly characterize our relations.

As responsible global citizens we wish to be partners of all nations in humanity’s struggle for the preservation and protection of the environment and in giving meaning and substance to the notion of sustainable development. We will approach the international negotiations on global warming, climate change and carbon emissions as responsible global citizens. We will fulfill our obligations to nature and to humanity consistent with our commitment to the welfare and well-being of our people, and the poor of the world. Equally, we expect the developed nations, and those who have so far drawn unduly on nature’s bounty to bear their due share of the burdens as well. Ours is not an unreasonable stance. It is based on our worldview that the “whole world is one family” and on our commitment to the principles of inclusive growth and development.

These three messages are relevant to the theme of this year’s Summit as well. They will remain the three pillars on which the India of 2020 is built. 2020 is not far away. Our primary challenge in the next decade will be to sustain high rates of economic growth, to ensure that the growth process remains equitable, to invest in the education and health of every child and adult, to generate gainful employment, to build modern, efficient and environment-friendly infrastructure and to ensure that government and public services are efficient and responsive to our people’s needs and function transparently. We should aim to sustain annual growth rates of 9 to 10% per annum. We have to increase investments in physical and social infrastructure, paying particular attention to the needs of our agriculture and the transformation of our rural economy. The fact that our savings rate is as high as 35% of our GDP suggests that what I am saying, is a realizable goal. The challenge for political leadership, at the national, at the state and local levels, will lie in ensuring the realization of this outcome.

and

Sitting here in Delhi we can endlessly debate the qualities of national leadership. But real change in India will come when we get the right kind of state level and local leadership – a forward-looking, modern and compassionate leadership that strengthens the foundations of our great Republic. The focus of the debate on leadership for building a new India should, therefore, shift to the States.

While such domestic regional and local leadership will build the new India we aspire for, we also need in our region, in South Asia, an equally forward looking leadership. Each of our neighbours faces similar developmental challenges. Some of them face bigger existential challenges.

India seeks a neighbourhood of peace and progress. We wish our neighbours well. We would like to see them develop and wipe out poverty and overcome the burden of history and we would like to work with them to achieve these goals. India is always happy to extend a helpful and supportive hand to all our neighbours. We wish to see democracy take deep roots in all these countries so that the people of South Asia are truly empowered to take their destiny into their own hands.

We need a leadership in our region that can take a long term view and which has the courage to take bold decisions. We must not allow our past to limit our future. To paraphrase Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore, we must not allow ‘narrow domestic walls’ to confine us to ‘the dreary desert sand of dead habit’. Instead we should dip into the ‘clear stream of reason’ and walk forward ‘into ever-widening thought and action’ so that we can build not just a new India by 2020 but a new South Asia.”

And always hedge for adverse consequences.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 02 Nov 2009 04:41

AWMTA - is that the only "Tagore poem" approved in Delhi? Sorry! Couldn't help it!

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 02 Nov 2009 09:46

.

18 years of MMS-ABV misrule has weakened the Military. The soldiers are underpaid, frustrated and live in shabby conditions. Plus Military hardware is also in bad shape, and everything is imported. So China may attack India to damage Indian economy and also bite away AP. If that happens, frustration in whole India and also Military will erupt like 1000 volcanoes and some "strong Purush" like person will get wide open field and chance of becoming a dictator.

If anyone of you want to save Indian democracy, IMO, you all should act fast in creating a pro-Military regime, so that China deters from attacking India. And by pro-Military regime, I mean "real pro-Military" regime, not some pseudos like ABV/LKA. Otherwise --- weak Military -> China attacks and defeats India -> takes away AP -> frustration rises -> someone becomes dictator ----- is going to happen in next 5 years.

---

Chiron,

Yes, Indians will have to change. But what would be those changes? And you already see them changing. But in what direction? And in what direction should they change? Should they become more pro-Democracy or more pro-oligarchy or pro-dictatorship? Should they become pro-Military or anti-Military? Should they become pro-corruption or anti-corruption?

As of now, I see everyone moving towards more extreme position. The pro-democracy people are more extreme pro-Democracy then they were 5 years ago, and anti-Democracy people are more anti-democracy than they were 5 years ago. The pro-naxals are more pro-naxals than decade ago and anti-naxals are more extreme anti-naxals 5 years ago. And pro-corruption are more pro-corruption and anti-corruption have become more stringent anti-corruption. A good thing is that number of "close to fence" is decreasing, but as number of extremist on both sides increase the tinderbox is likely to explode big time.

----

Rahul Mehta: 1. Frustrated poor will go towards Maoists type elements
2. Frustrated middle class men, rich will say "lets us make some Modi-like a dictator"

vera_k: How is this different from what exists today? In the absence of democratic system like Right To Recall, the Prime Minister and other politicians are the equivalent of dictators at all times other than the election. I think we saw people expressing preference for this in the 2009 election where many people voted for MMS over Advani.

aaahhh vera_k, your pro-recall post is music to my ears ... and that too "right to recall PM" raaga ... my most favorite of all the 251 RTR-raagas... .

1. When India becomes a dictatorship, the elections will disappear.

2. The procedure of election takes energy out of activists and thus promotes stability, though not necessarily democracy. So when elections go away, activists will have no place to spend their energy. Their restlessness will keep piling up.

3. Now MNC own TV channels and Indian Govt can control them these days. The TV channels urge these highly restless activists to create a strife against him. The restless activists will fall prey to this.

4. This will force the dictator to bow before the West and so slavery of MNC will increase.

--------

So yes, existing recall-less democracy is hardly a democracy. But when it becomes a dictatorship of Left or Right, things will worsen.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 03 Nov 2009 01:09

RM,
the different vocal and pressure groups or opinion mobilizers may not have "democracy" as their first target - they vouch for democracy now because they think it serves as an effective tool for their objectives. What if they are offered a higher price to quietly drop "democracy"?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 03 Nov 2009 12:38

brihaspati wrote:RM,
the different vocal and pressure groups or opinion mobilizers may not have "democracy" as their first target - they vouch for democracy now because they think it serves as an effective tool for their objectives. What if they are offered a higher price to quietly drop "democracy"?

Most of the NGO-men I came across are anti-democracy and the word "democracy" is used only as fashion. But democratic ideals do appeal the bottom rung of activists as well as hapless commons . So if the leader in India is undemocratic and can be portrayed so, then West can pay bribes to these NGO men, and so strip up a venom campaign in ToI, IE, Hindu, HT, Star New, Aaj Tak, Zee News etc against leader portraying him as anti-democracy. So a large number of bottom rung activists and common men will agitate against this leader. And so the leader will have to bow before the West.

So yes, NGO-sartaps will give up demand of democracy, but only if their aakaa in West ask them to do so.

.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 03 Nov 2009 18:45

So our home minister has graced a religious gathering of Ulema who started their session with a resolution to declare "Vande mataram" un-Islamic. Combined with Islam being declared an integral part of India by the home minister - this implies that "Vande matarm" is un-Indian. Being a representative of the secualr GOI, has PC endorsed that parts of what others think of as being sourced from Indian background is now allowed to be declared un-Indian? If one part of India is allowed to declare other elements from India as un-Indian, is it allowed to non-Muslims too? Or it is only Islam that is being put forward as India - and what the Ulema declares has the approval of the GOI?

I am happy though that PC expresses clearly where his heart truly lies. And the reasons why India's efforts at rooting out Jihad will always remain hamstrung, confused and self-defeating under such regimes. This is good for the long term - even people like famous Yogi teaching yogic postures to an Islamic gathering. All those who are confused or self-deluded about the true motivations and strategy of Islamic theologians - should clump and converge together as quickly as possible. Their access to rashtryia power is even better - for that hastens the exposure of the true nature and aims of the Ulema.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Nov 2009 19:07

brihaspati wrote:So our home minister has graced a religious gathering of Ulema who started their session with a resolution to declare "Vande mataram" un-Islamic. Combined with Islam being declared an integral part of India by the home minister - this implies that "Vande matarm" is un-Indian.

B-ji,

The otherday I was reading the english translation of Anandmath novel. I do not remember the translator's name but he is from Bengal and the translation was done before 1947. Nowhere in that book I could find anything against Islam or Indian Muslims. And whatever translation there is of "Vande Mataram" poem, I didn't find anything objectionable. Then how and by whom all this propaganda was created against "vande mataram" in independent India?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Nov 2009 19:27

RamaY wrote:
brihaspati wrote:So our home minister has graced a religious gathering of Ulema who started their session with a resolution to declare "Vande mataram" un-Islamic. Combined with Islam being declared an integral part of India by the home minister - this implies that "Vande matarm" is un-Indian.
B-ji,

The otherday I was reading the english translation of Anandmath novel. I do not remember the translator's name but he is from Bengal and the translation was done before 1947. Nowhere in that book I could find anything against Islam or Indian Muslims. And whatever translation there is of "Vande Mataram" poem, I didn't find anything objectionable. Then how and by whom all this propaganda was created against "vande mataram" in independent India?

The book is staunchly anti muslim in its tenor when first written (I have read two translations) most of the charges against Anand Math in my opinion are correct.

That however does not mean it is not suitable for use by new India

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 03 Nov 2009 19:28

As regards Vande Mataram - what is the precise meaning of "Vandana"? Does it mean worship or does it mean reverence? In any case, is there a clear distinction between worship and reverence?

Christians call themselves monotheists but have no problem with using the term "Reverend"

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Nov 2009 19:32

Pranav wrote:As regards Vande Mataram - what is the precise meaning of "Vandana"? Does it mean worship or does it mean reverence? In any case, is there a clear distinction between worship and reverence?

Christians call themselves monotheists but have no problem with using the term "Reverend"

Twami Durga Dash Praharan Dharani
Kamala Kamal Dal Viharni
Vaani Vidyadayani
Namai Twam.....

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 03 Nov 2009 19:38

Sanku wrote: Twami Durga Dash Praharan Dharani
Kamala Kamal Dal Viharni
Vaani Vidyadayani
Namai Twam.....

Is this from the book? Well the song that is usually sung does not have these lines. I was thinking a quick fix can be found by employing an appropriate translation of "Vandana".

That does not address the issue raised by B ji, though. My approach is somewhat different. Maybe we can start a thread on another forum.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Nov 2009 19:42

Pranav wrote:
Sanku wrote: Twami Durga Dash Praharan Dharani
Kamala Kamal Dal Viharni
Vaani Vidyadayani
Namai Twam.....
Is this from the book? Well the song that is usually sung does not have these lines. I was thinking a quick fix can be found by employing an appropriate translation.

Yes Sir

http://www.hindujagruti.org/activities/ ... demataram/

All jingos should do themselves a favor and listen to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Os_8BN2 ... re=related

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Nov 2009 19:46

Thanks Sanku-ji. That clarifies.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 03 Nov 2009 19:47

Pranav wrote:
Sanku wrote: Twami Durga Dash Praharan Dharani
Kamala Kamal Dal Viharni
Vaani Vidyadayani
Namai Twam.....
Is this from the book? Well the song that is usually sung does not have these lines. I was thinking a quick fix can be found by employing an appropriate translation.

OT, but INC ensured post 1947 or maybe even before that none of the lines after the first two paragraphs are there in the official rendition. The Bengali book from Samsad that contains the novel along with others from Bankim contains an "apologetic" message from the editor at the beginning, so that "sentiments" are not hurt.

Also this part of the poem is resented:

Sapta koti kantha kalakala ninad karale
Dwisapta koti bhujai dhrita kharga karabale
Abala keno Ma eto bale....

does not reflect the pacifist version of India as projected by Congress.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Nov 2009 20:02

To paraphrase Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore, we must not allow ‘narrow domestic walls’ to confine us to ‘the dreary desert sand of dead habit’. Instead we should dip into the ‘clear stream of reason’ and walk forward ‘into ever-widening thought and action'.

It seems to be a popular and ringing thought for many!

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 03 Nov 2009 20:09

What B was talking about.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/213215/J-e- ... taram.html

Islamic group Jamiat-e-Ulema has issued a fatwa against India's national song Vande Mataram. The fatwa dissuades Muslims from singing the national song as some of the verses of the song, they allege, "are against the tenets of Islam."

The fatwa was not in the written agenda of the Ulema convention. Media reports says that the Muslim Law Board justified this decision saying that the Muslims cannot worship anyone other than God.

Union Home Minister P Chidambaram addressed the Muslim convention at Deoband on Tuesday, where he said that their invitation to him was a significant gesture for him. He added that he saw it as an oppurtunity to reach out to every section of the society.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Nov 2009 21:05

Pranav wrote:As regards Vande Mataram - what is the precise meaning of "Vandana"? Does it mean worship or does it mean reverence? In any case, is there a clear distinction between worship and reverence?

Christians call themselves monotheists but have no problem with using the term "Reverend"

The connection?

I can't find my Bengali dictionary but I think Vandana means Worship/prayer.

Technically, Allah is supreme and without being unfair, it is correct that it is immensely difficult for a Muslim to pray or revere or love or be loyal to anyone but Allah.

Even their festival of Shab e Barat (praying at their ancestors graves) is unIslamic as per Wahabi ideals!

Having said that, it is quite odd that a non issue which has been thrashed adequately in the past is once again being resurrected to no avail.

Why?

Some political agenda and something in the pipeline?

The Dawoodi Bohra's Syedna says that the first loyalty is to the Nation or so I learn from Dawoodi friends. They are furious that such an unnecessary issue has been raised and it will whip up unnecessary frenzy!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 03 Nov 2009 22:02

Yes Delhi seems to approve and know of only two poems by "Tagore" nowadays.

Just to make it clear : the issue I raised here was not about the validity/possible anti-islam bias of the novel where it appears/ etc. Its about a certain position being taken official stance wise - which can be interpreted as political statement of future action - which brings it under context of strategic leadership.

The question would not have arisen if PC did not attend this gathering. It is unthinkable that someone who is obviously as careful as PC and withs uch a high rank in GOI, has been allowed or prodded to do this without thinking of consequences. It is perhaps not strange that someone not from the Gangetic heartland has been sent to do this. A more appropriate person would have been RG or SG - then it would have been more "political" and could have been passed off as such. But now it has an image of entanglement with the GOI which is supposed to maintain its distance from such overtly religious-political gathering - given that earlier in the year the latter indeed declared their future political intentions.

Umrao Das · Post by **Umrao Das** » 03 Nov 2009 22:12

Vandana means salutations or paying respect or showing deference
Deference is different from Reverence. Reverence could be out of blind faith or unquestioned obedience.
Deference is respect with understanding and reasoning.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 03 Nov 2009 22:50

brihaspati wrote:Yes Delhi seems to approve and know of only two poems by "Tagore" nowadays.

The question would not have arisen if PC did not attend this gathering. It is unthinkable that someone who is obviously as careful as PC and withs uch a high rank in GOI, has been allowed or prodded to do this without thinking of consequences. It is perhaps not strange that someone not from the Gangetic heartland has been sent to do this. A more appropriate person would have been RG or SG - then it would have been more "political" and could have been passed off as such. But now it has an image of entanglement with the GOI which is supposed to maintain its distance from such overtly religious-political gathering - given that earlier in the year the latter indeed declared their future political intentions.

That is precisely the point. Why are the ulemas not thrashed to inconsequence? Why does GoI stick to this particular "dead habit"?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Nov 2009 01:50

Abhi_G ji,
why should a secular country and rashtra allow a third party of self-proclaimed religious authority to stand between itself and its citizens. Fatwas in Islam have a legal and binding or enforceable character. Allowing fatwas to be freely given in a secular society is dangerpus. For the moment the Ulema will bypass the issue saying it is legally binding and enforceable if the state was Islamic. Since the state is not yet Islamic - fatwas should not be taken as an assault on the secular character of the state - etc.

But the very fact that a group of theologians stand up to issue such instructions is the beginnings of asserting separate political and rashtryia authority for Islam on India. What the common Muslim on Indian soil chooses to sing or not should be his/her personal choice - and not mediated or ordered by the Ulema.

Why is the GOI getting involved in this?

At one stroke the GOI is proving itself non-secular - by allowing one of its senior cabinet ministers to share the podium with an avowedly politically oriented religious gathering. A grouping that has boldly started its political career by deliberately choosing an icon of a particular swathe of political thinking in India - to lambast. This icon of "vandemataram" is associated with particular grouping that is dubbed "Hindu". Thus the Ulemas fromal fatwa and denunciation is a religious act enshrined in politics. Just because the lambasting is likely to prick the "Hindu" - the GOI finds it okay?

In another stroke the Ulema is proving that their ultimate intention is establishing an Islamic state - where the citizens behaviour is controlled by the theologian leadership.

As for leadership - there are only two paths to choose from. Either do not allow any third party to come between the rashtra and its nagariks. Or if you cannot be so strictly neutral - let the people choose one religious or faith authority to define that relationship for all. The rashtra cannot pretend to be secular while it effectively does the second method.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 04 Nov 2009 02:09

Brihaspati-ji check the election pamphlet from Aurangabad in the following post.

http://www.offstumped.in/2009/10/19/ind ... m-is-sick/

http://zoomindianmedia.files.wordpress. ... =450&h=610

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 04 Nov 2009 05:56

JMG should be banned -- i.e. private people may sing it at private place, no GoI employee can sing it and no one can sing it at GoI premise.

VM should me made National Anthem. And a person should be free not to sing it. He need to only stand up when it is sung, but should not be forced to sing it.

.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Nov 2009 08:11

In a free society you can't stop Fatwas. The main issue is credibility. How is it that Fatwas are regarded as legitimate. Perhaps you have not as yet been successful in creating and communicating an alternate paradigm that has much greater credibility. Perhaps censorship laws will not allow people to speak frankly about various doctrines. This is a battle that must be waged on the mental plane. Need to identify the real obstructions that should be worked upon.

Also, you must not fail to notice other nuances. Nobody forced them to invite and listen to Baba Ramdev, Sri Sri and others. So there is also a process of reaching out that is going on.

brihaspati wrote:Abhi_G ji,
why should a secular country and rashtra allow a third party of self-proclaimed religious authority to stand between itself and its citizens. Fatwas in Islam have a legal and binding or enforceable character. Allowing fatwas to be freely given in a secular society is dangerpus. For the moment the Ulema will bypass the issue saying it is legally binding and enforceable if the state was Islamic. Since the state is not yet Islamic - fatwas should not be taken as an assault on the secular character of the state - etc.

But the very fact that a group of theologians stand up to issue such instructions is the beginnings of asserting separate political and rashtryia authority for Islam on India. What the common Muslim on Indian soil chooses to sing or not should be his/her personal choice - and not mediated or ordered by the Ulema.

Why is the GOI getting involved in this?

At one stroke the GOI is proving itself non-secular - by allowing one of its senior cabinet ministers to share the podium with an avowedly politically oriented religious gathering. A grouping that has boldly started its political career by deliberately choosing an icon of a particular swathe of political thinking in India - to lambast. This icon of "vandemataram" is associated with particular grouping that is dubbed "Hindu". Thus the Ulemas fromal fatwa and denunciation is a religious act enshrined in politics. Just because the lambasting is likely to prick the "Hindu" - the GOI finds it okay?

In another stroke the Ulema is proving that their ultimate intention is establishing an Islamic state - where the citizens behaviour is controlled by the theologian leadership.

As for leadership - there are only two paths to choose from. Either do not allow any third party to come between the rashtra and its nagariks. Or if you cannot be so strictly neutral - let the people choose one religious or faith authority to define that relationship for all. The rashtra cannot pretend to be secular while it effectively does the second method.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Nov 2009 08:34

Cheers for Baba today, yoga later

Lucknow, Nov. 3: A largely Muslim crowd of 5 lakh cheered Baba Ramdev today as he recalled the community’s role in the freedom movement in the first speech by a non-Muslim religious leader at India’s leading Islamic seminary.

Many of the 10,000 moulvis in the audience at the Darul Uloom of Deoband, Uttar Pradesh, said they appreciated the yoga guru’s call for a united India and his demand that the Centre speed up minority welfare schemes.

Ramdev is likely to return soon because his scheduled yoga demonstration was put off for another day.

“Although he did not speak on yoga today, many maulanas are interested in doing the exercises. He may be called another time to train our maulanas in yoga,” Deoband spokesman Mumtaz Alam told The Telegraph.

“We cannot forget the contribution of the Muslims to the independence movement,” Ramdev told the annual convention of the Jamiat Ulema-i-Hind, one of India’s largest Muslim organisations and the parent body of the seminary.

More at:

What's the Agenda?

What's up?

PC, then Ramdev.

There is something in the air!

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Nov 2009 08:39

^ Good thing about Baba Ram Dev is unlike others who wear their stuff on sleeve he has cleverly got people to give his ideas a try by suggesting to drop the 'Om' and use their god's name . PC on other hand had nothing to add apart from

about Babri masjid . I don't know how can people think of achieving religious harmony by scraping age old wounds .

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Nov 2009 08:43

It can be a deceptive process of allowing inner agenda to pass through - since opposition can be mellowed down by pointing out - "see we are trying to reach out". The statement against Vandemataram could equally and more effectively have been made in the shadows of madrassahs and mosques. Just as effectively can the formal shows by Ramdev be negated through Friday sermons. However using the occasion and forum to start the campaign targeting Vandemataram is a shrewd political move and a political statement. This will appear as if the heavyweights of "Hindu" society are lending their weight to such declarations. It is meant more for the non-Muslim than for the Muslim.

RayC,
what if they are trying to indirectly say to the Islamist - look we will give you your hearts desire willingly, no need to go for or join jihad. Just support us politically, and in exchange we will allow you to gain your political agenda. It can also be a pre-emptive reassurance programme to prevent anticipatory hedging by the Islamists in case a large scale attack actually happens.Also the "Kashmir" agenda could be on the cards.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Nov 2009 09:58

After being nudged I watch Ramdev on ZeeTV. He is very clear about his aims.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Nov 2009 10:02

brihaspati wrote:It can be a deceptive process of allowing inner agenda to pass through - since opposition can be mellowed down by pointing out - "see we are trying to reach out". The statement against Vandemataram could equally and more effectively have been made in the shadows of madrassahs and mosques. Just as effectively can the formal shows by Ramdev be negated through Friday sermons. However using the occasion and forum to start the campaign targeting Vandemataram is a shrewd political move and a political statement. This will appear as if the heavyweights of "Hindu" society are lending their weight to such declarations. It is meant more for the non-Muslim than for the Muslim.

I don't think they would reach out unless it were genuine. Because the public message sent out is received not only by the majority, but also by the minority. When lakhs of seminary students cheer for Baba Ramdev and Sri Sri, they can't be given a completely different message after going back. Would cause too much cognitive dissonance.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Nov 2009 10:59

brihaspati wrote:
RayC,
what if they are trying to indirectly say to the Islamist - look we will give you your hearts desire willingly, no need to go for or join jihad. Just support us politically, and in exchange we will allow you to gain your political agenda. It can also be a pre-emptive reassurance programme to prevent anticipatory hedging by the Islamists in case a large scale attack actually happens.Also the "Kashmir" agenda could be on the cards.

Blessent mon coeur dune langueur monotone
[Wound my heart with a monotonous languor].

This is a SECULAR country.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 04 Nov 2009 14:21

Ramanaji,

When you say Baba Ramdev is very clear abt his aims, I agree. He very openly calls for a complete change in the system to a system more in line with our national ethos. By and large , he has supported nationalism. This deoband trip puzzles me. I hope he does not end up appeasing islamist theocrats.

The stand with islam should be as Aurobindo Ghosh suggested in one of his writings: be fully prepared to emrace them as brothers if they so choose or hold them in the iron grip of a wrestler if they choose that.