Strategic leadership for the future of India

RamaY
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 08 Nov 2009 10:31

I got your hint Acharya-ji. As someone said in one of the deleted threads, the so-called secular leadership wants to define India as something that started in 1947, as if this place is a desert before that.

In a way, these cabbage-brains (no offence to cabbage or brains) are no different from Pakis. Pakis hang on to Arab lands, and these secularists hang on to west. Pakis have good taliban and non-state actors. These pseudo-secularists have Maoists and NGO/activist groups. Pakis are driven by Islamic (not islamist) ideology. In India they are driven by western-secularism.

Jarita -

People will give one or the other label for everything. It is a big joke that on BR and everywhere in India people want to brush aside 800 million hindus in the name of secularism, yet they allow the fatwas by Islamic Ulema and external influence by EJs sighting the same secularism.

Just because we have another forum to discuss a topic does not mean this forum can be absolved from its responsibility to be impartial and objective, right?

RayC
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 10:47

Just because we have another forum to discuss a topic does not mean this forum can be absolved from its responsibility to be impartial and objective, right?


Contact the owners of this Forum.

State your point of view and how you want it to conform to yours.

Please don't think fools own this forum and you are sole sane one left in this heap!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Jarita » 08 Nov 2009 10:48

RamaY wrote:Jarita -

People will give one or the other label for everything. It is a big joke that on BR and everywhere in India people want to brush aside 800 million hindus in the name of secularism, yet they allow the fatwas by Islamic Ulema and external influence by EJs sighting the same secularism.

Just because we have another forum to discuss a topic does not mean this forum can be absolved from its responsibility to be impartial and objective, right?



Agree. But we got to pick our battles and some battles might have negative fall out for a lot of people if fought at a particular point in time.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 08 Nov 2009 10:53

RayC wrote:
Just because we have another forum to discuss a topic does not mean this forum can be absolved from its responsibility to be impartial and objective, right?


Contact the owners of this Forum.

State your point of view and how you want it to conform to yours.

Please don't think fools own this forum and you are sole sane one left in this heap!


I was answering Jarita not you. I know when to give feedback and when to debate. The debate is open to everyone to make their own inferences.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 08 Nov 2009 10:56

Jarita wrote:Agree. But we got to pick our battles and some battles might have negative fall out for a lot of people if fought at a particular point in time.


Just read the last 3 pages in this thread and see who is diverting the discussion. If it were anyone else, they would have gotten at least 2 warnings for the tone/language in those irrelevant posts.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Umrao Das » 08 Nov 2009 11:03

Mayhem? I say fire at will and you may get Bharat Rakshak Ratna.

I am ready with a tub of

Image

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby svinayak » 08 Nov 2009 11:09

I tried recently gourmet masala popcorn. Really good. Yummy

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 11:16

RamaY wrote:The fence is eating up the crop.

In Civilizational thread RayC-ji passionately argued against calling our civilization Hindu-civilization or Bharatiya-civilization as such a thing would undermine the yet to be proven Islamic/Christian contributions. We all settled with the name “Indic” to accommodate him and like minded posters. Now he attributes unknown slyness to Hindu majority for calling our civilization Indic. My request is still open to present whatever civilizational contributions Islam or Christianity did to India that is Bharat.

In Kandhamal thread Sri RayC proclaimed that he doesn’t have any interest in learning about Hindu philosophy or reading any Hindu scriptures/epics. Yet he demonstrates unequivocal opinion about Om and yoga, just because he thought/felt so.

In this thread RayC-ji diverts the discussion to PC and Baba Ramdev using derogatory remarks while leaving (by diverting the topic) the Islamic Ulema who issued a Fatwa against singing Vandemataram. He (either directly or not by opposing other moderator opinion) warned/banned other posters for calling MMS names just because he is (non-elected) PM of India. Yet RayC calls names everyone who is in or who wants to enter politics.

I hope the moderator in RayC-ji sees this duplicity.


Fence is eating the crop! Interesting in English. I don't know if there is an equivalent in Bengali. And I know basic Hindi which is not my Mother tongue and my Regimental language is Marathi!

Please read my post on what is Strategic leadership and relationship between religion and Statecraft. Do be good enough to comment on that instead of a tirade just because I don’t toe your party line! Or is it too candid and stark for your liking and prevents you from your usual line of religious discourse, which has no relevance to strategic leadership?
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 04:00 am.

I am afraid as you are entitled to a point of view, so am I and so is anyone else.

It does not matter who taunts one and who would like to heap it on me. It is immaterial. If I were to worry about such trifles and such insignificance, then life would be very difficult. Let us leave it at that. Thank you. Those who do so are no stellar individuals either!

I am yet to understand the difference of Indic and what is being stated as Indic. I have given the dictionary meaning. Start a thread, if you wish, to educate us.

I am absolute enthralled with your ‘our civilisation’ that you claim I don’t want to learn about! Have the marauders from the West not taught us something? They are not a part of what you call Indic. If not, explain why not? Have they not contributed, negatively or positively? Why fight shy? I do agree that they are not Hindu. Is Hindu what is Indic? If so, say so as Hari has said so honestly. Where you RSS people fail to realise is let us embrace our past, take the best of it and make India better. India is above everything else! Hinduism, as I have observed, does not fight, it embraces! That is why it has survived and it will survive!

Indeed, I care not for the Hindu or Indic philosophy that you and your like-minded espouse. It is too great a philosophy that can downspiral to the levels of what some call ‘Abrahamic’, not that there is nothing we can learn from them. Lets take pride in it. We sure can. The fact that Hindu ethos, culture and religion has been disabused and ravaged and yet it survives is the litmus test. It is the weak hearted who go blue in the face! You may belong to the weak hearted class, but I am not. I am totally confident if Hinduism has survived all the disabuse and onslaught through history, it can never be subdued. It is but a willow tree.

I don’t have to learn Hinduism. If I understand Humanity, it is a higher realm than the narrow corridors of religion. If that is a sin, I am a sinner and proud of it!

Have you seen a communal riot? Have you quelled it? That is India. We cannot sit in our air conditioned homes or in some foreign lands and pontificate to those who keep this country as ONE! You can keep your divisive religious ideas to aflame the country, but my organisation (armed forces) is steadfast in keeping it ONE in spite of efforts of people of your ilk. My country comes FIRST, ALWAYS AND EVERY TIME. Religion maybe your credo and the only answer to Moksha! I don't think Hinduism suggest religious divides and hatred. At least, not the Hinduism I see!

Let me explain what India is. I have been in the Army and that is India! We have our religion but that is private. What we understand is the Nation. Many of us have died for our Nation, be they Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Parsis and even Jains! Our Nation comes first and then whoever we are and whatever be our religion! What is important? Religion or the Nation? We are there everywhere, when India is up a gum tree? Why? We are not influenced by these silly divisive things! Our Nation is what is our concern. Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Parsi, Jain or whatever! We are Indians. Why can't you be?

However, what are painful are the canards that you have thrown my way to whip up a frenzy against me.

I take it from what little I understand from your post that you take umbrage that I have not commented on the Darul for their fatwa on Vande Mataram. I am afraid you must be wearing eyeshades at that time so as to miss what I wrote. Not only did I find the fatwa misplaced and ridiculous, I also appended what Md Arif Khan has stated including his Urdu translation. There is nothing unIslamic about Vande Mataram is what Md Arif and I say too.

I have criticised the Fatwa as foolish. I have also given Md Arif Khan’s translation in Urdu and his comment that Vande Mataram is NOT anti Islam. So why rant and spread disinformation?

I have banned no poster on what they say about MMS nor connived with any other Moderator. Why are you so cussed to tar and feather me just to falsely prove your points? If I were you, I would hang my head in shame!

You have a biased attitude and you have nothing better to do than spread canards!

Sadly I am have no duplicity and that is why I have all your ire. I speak frankly and don’t cloak Indic with Hindu!

BTW what so great about Ramdev? He is just another yogaman out to make money! If one goes by your Indic (Hindu) championing, he has appeased the Darul!

Garv se bolo Hindu hai! He should have done that.

The Muslims or their Darul has no qualms, why are you embarrassed to seek cover of Indic?

I said I am not a Hindu, but it in no way divorces me from the goodness of Hinduism of my ancestors since if it has survived such turbulence of history, it sure has some goodness and greatness that cannot be denied! Let us build on it and not divide this great country!

Lastly, I care for no charlatan. They are nowhere close to Ramakrishna Pramahansa, Swami Vivekanada or Sri Sri Aurobindo!

This post is as a poster!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 12:56

RamaY wrote:
Jarita wrote:Agree. But we got to pick our battles and some battles might have negative fall out for a lot of people if fought at a particular point in time.


Just read the last 3 pages in this thread and see who is diverting the discussion. If it were anyone else, they would have gotten at least 2 warnings for the tone/language in those irrelevant posts.


Lucky you!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pulikeshi » 08 Nov 2009 12:57

RayC wrote:My request, please don't use religion to divide us even further!

The future of this Nation depends on narrowing the schisms and that should be the political strategy that the leadership has to evolve.

We have to sink our differences, before the differences sink us!


hi,

Where on earth did you get the happy idea that I (a nobody) or for that matter
most regular citizens have the ability to use religion to divide anyone! To what end?
Remember only the British can divide and conquer! (major sarcasm alert!) :P

The military and the government are secular institutions, but the citizens are not!
Those institutions serve the people and within reason protect the citizens right to believe.

This site may be secular, but its posters need not be! Does BRF allow us this freedom?? :eek: :shock:
Expressing an opinion as someone who follows the major belief system of India
need not in itself raise suspicion of calling for divisions.
Just as being a poster from a minority belief system does not mean a call to unity.

We can make happy appeals to sink differences, but it is irrelevant -
Citizens with differences and disagreements must agree to live together in peace.
However, such peace cannot be arrived at by dhimmitude and burying differences and disagreements.

Peace arrived at by the latter is volatile and that by the former is difficult.
Bharat is the cradle of beliefs - to seek to suppress it is a fools errand!
However, I sincerely believe that Bharat has the genius to pursue the difficult path to peace!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 13:01

Pulikeshi wrote:
RayC wrote:My request, please don't use religion to divide us even further!

The future of this Nation depends on narrowing the schisms and that should be the political strategy that the leadership has to evolve.

We have to sink our differences, before the differences sink us!


hi,

Where on earth did you get the happy idea that I (a nobody) or for that matter
most regular citizens have the ability to use religion to divide anyone! To what end?
Remember only the British can divide and conquer! (major sarcasm alert!) :P

The military and the government are secular institutions, but the citizens are not!
Those institutions serve the people and within reason protect the citizens right to believe.

This site may be secular, but its posters need not be! Does BRF allow us this freedom?? :eek: :shock:
Expressing an opinion as someone who follows the major belief system of India
need not in itself raise suspicion of calling for divisions.
Just as being a poster from a minority belief system does not mean a call to unity.

We can make happy appeals to sink differences, but it is irrelevant -
Citizens with differences and disagreements must agree to live together in peace.
However, such peace cannot be arrived at by dhimmitude and burying differences and disagreements.

Peace arrived at by the latter is volatile and that by the former is difficult.
Bharat is the cradle of beliefs - to seek to suppress it is a fools errand!
However, I sincerely believe that Bharat has the genius to pursue the difficult path to peace!


Check your posts!

As far as the BRF is concerned, we have no religious or political agenda or so I understand.

You feel otherwise?

Be good enough to answer my post on leadership and the issue that religion and Statecraft is an explosive mix. I answered your post. Please answer mine and not go off on a tangent!

I would love to be educated by you!

You are not a nobody in reality and yet we feel you are a somebody because we care to have your posts!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 13:11

Pulikeshi wrote:

Quote:
RayC wrote:
Religion and politics is a dangerous combination!


I have come across some whoppers on this forum, but it is hard to get better than this one!
The state needs to keep them separated or that is the wisdom we have at this time acquired.... but
Keep the fuel away from the engine, because if you put them together they can explode!
Time to take the pure fuel of Religions and make it run dirty engine called Politics!
:rotfl:

Perhaps, RayC should respectfully heed his own advice and stick to soldiering :mrgreen:
Yes, geopolitics will fall into the Indic types that squirm to bring Hindu political thought into consideration.
However, there are others opposing that game as well... thankfully it is a democracy which this forum is not!

PS: I hope we can all meditate on the fact that Indian nationalism is like muscle (there are different kinds) and together they solve a purpose. And micro breaks and tears heal to strengthen the overall. What Indian nationalism does not have is strong (back)bones.
Whereas countries like China, nationalism is a brittle bone - hard to reset if it breaks and if it shatters real hard may never heal. What it has is plenty of raw muscle, but that by itself is stilling on a brittle frame.
What is the point of one muscle group going on making fun of another - both are required.
Neither want to exercise and get stronger, but hey criticism is cheap (this note included!)

By the way, why are we discussing althu, palthu stuff in a thread devoted to thinking about strategic leadership -
the quacking is getting unbearable!


It is a matter of opinion.

Pakistan is an ideal example of the dangerous mix of religion and Statecraft. Now, Pakistan is exploding.

To take a leaf of your muscle and brittle bone allegory. China has not only muscle but also fine bone. That is why they show a high nationalism. One has to observe them on the Internet. That apart, the manner in which they tenaciously pushed through the Olympic Flame in spite of opposition in many countries, showcased the Olympics as also were the top medal winners does indicate the inherent strength of their nationalism. It is where there is religion at the forefront is where they are having problems – Tibet and Xinjiang. Hence, religion and Statecraft is indeed an explosive mix.

The head must rule supreme and not the heart!

That is the sum total of leadership. Tactical or strategic!

Therefore, one wonders who is having the last laugh! ;)

Strategic leadership is also an adjunct to soldiering. Forgive me for pointing this out to a learned soul as you! Strategic leadership is not evolved in a void.

The common usage of the term strategic is related to the concept of strategy—simply a plan of action for accomplishing a goal. One finds both broad and narrow senses of the adjective strategic. Narrowly, the term denotes operating directly against military or industrial installations of an enemy during the conduct of war with the intent of destroying his military potential. Today, strategic is used more often in its broader sense (e.g., strategic planning, decisions, bombing, and even leadership). Thus, we use it to relate something’s primary importance or its quintessential aspect—for instance, the most advantageous, complex, difficult, or potentially damaging challenge to a nation, organization, culture, people, place, or object. When we recognize and use strategic in this broad sense, we append such meanings as the most important long-range planning, the most complex and profound decisions, and the most advantageous effects from a bombing campaign—as well as leaders with the highest conceptual ability to make decisions.

As mentioned earlier, strategy is a plan whose aim is to link ends, ways, and means. The difficult part involves the thinking required to develop the plan based on uncertain, ambiguous, complex, or volatile knowledge, information, and data. Strategic leadership entails making decisions across different cultures, agencies, agendas, personalities, and desires. It requires the devising of plans that are feasible, desirable, and acceptable to one’s organization and partners—whether joint, inter¬agency, or multinational. Strategic leadership demands the ability to make sound, reasoned decisions—specifically, consequential decisions with grave implications. Since the aim of strategy is to link ends, ways, and means, the aim of strategic leadership is to determine the ends, choose the best ways, and apply the most effective means. The strategy is the plan; strategic leadership is the thinking and decision making required to develop and effect the plan. Skills for leading at the strategic level are more complex than those for leading at the tactical and operational levels, with skills blurring at the seams between those levels. In short, one may define strategic leadership as the ability of an experienced, senior leader who has the wisdom and vision to create and execute plans and make consequential decisions in the volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous strategic environment.

One has thus to first understand what is strategic leadership rather than meander into nooks and cranny and into the irrelevant.

Indian nationalism is indeed weak, as you so correctly opine. It is because of fractures in the India polity and erupting sub nationalism, apart from the religious schism in the social fabric, the latter instead of providing ‘body’ to nationalism is in actuality being given undue prominence and is but fracturing the nation. The latest being the fatwa on Vande Mataram!

I might add from an Indian example where religion and politics did not mix and thus did not become an explosive situation. The Golden Temple episode. Since the Army is apolitical and religion is not a major issue, Sikh officers and soldiers obeyed the order to take on the terrorists in the Golden Temple, knowing fully well that there would be damage to the Temple to some extent and it would hurt the Sikh psyche! It must have been heart wrenching for them, but they showed that they were made of sterner stuff! It is but a salute to the fact that religion is not mixed with one's duty and responsibility to the Nation! This is why the Army still continues to be the 'firefighting' organisation to keep the Nation together. They now want to deploy the Army against the Maoists, as if there is not enough of policemen or para military forces, whose primary job is internal security! Religion, national integrity and Statecraft does not mix! Or so my experience indicates. Ethos or being beyond religion, caste and community! It is a great experience and it is sad that you all have not experienced it!

During the Naxalite problem in Bengal, Bengali officers and men were to be watched! My CO had no qualms of showing me that letter! I had no qualms of being loyal to my Nation! That is nationalism if I may most politely inform. India comes first and then other issues. Indian Moslems also die for their nation in wars against their fellow religionist across the border. Please think of their loyalty. Please note we don't have Fort Hood massacres! The Army and the armed forces is what is True India! Proud of it!

My request, please don't use religion to divide us even further!

The future of this Nation depends on narrowing the schisms and that should be the political strategy that the leadership has to evolve.

We have to sink our differences, before the differences sink us!

It might be an aide mémoire that soldiers can think beyond soldiering since many a great world leader and statesman have had the proud privilege to wear the uniform of their Nation's armed forces!

If I may suggest with due regards to all, let us discuss leadership in the strategic concept and not boil everything down to the religious realm being the sole panacea to the issue of leadership of a Nation.

The point that this forum is not a democracy and that criticism is cheap is well taken. We are all governed (everyone) by those who pay for and own the Forum. Yet, there is some democracy - in that no one has coerced us to come to this forum and we are free to quit it without taking anyone's leave!



May this refresh your memories!

Don't weasel out!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 13:18

RamaY wrote:Just because we have another forum to discuss a topic does not mean this forum can be absolved from its responsibility to be impartial and objective, right?


Contact the owners of this Forum.

State your point of view and how you want it to conform to yours.

Please don't think fools own this forum and you are sole sane one left in this heap!


I was answering Jarita not you. I know when to give feedback and when to debate. The debate is open to everyone to make their own inferences.


It does not matter.

I have my responsibility.

You cannot disabuse your place here and slander!

The fact that you have said what you have said should be enough proof that there is no stopping unusual thoughts or whatever!

Indeed if you have a point, all will accept it, but may I request you to have no slander since without facts it looks so!!

does not mean this forum can be absolved from its responsibility to be impartial and objective, right


If you feel that this forum is not impartial and not objective, has anyone stopped you from quitting? I assure you that your peace of mind is our paramount concern! Quit, sir, quit!

Please quit if you feel that this forum is not up to your standard, whatever that might be.

The fact that you still hang around, shows the hypocrisy!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 Nov 2009 13:31

Jarita wrote:This topic does not belong to this thread but mantra japa (verbal) is also an aspect in tantra. Not as effective as inner vaak but it is effective esp. in the expansion of the Maalini vs. contraction. We can discuss elswhere

Also Droy - I have never understood how our contemporary gurus keep condemning Maya. If all is shiva then how is maya separate. They contradict themselves. The siddhis come from Amba. To curse them is to curse Amba.

We should halt this discussion now given the moderators.

Mods sorry for the OT in this and next post but couldn't resist:
Droy I came across a very interesting book called "Book of Secrets" by Osho it is based upon 112 tantric meditation techniques given by Shiva from granth called "Vigyan Bhairav Tantra". See if you can get it, its quite good and insightful.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 Nov 2009 13:40

Jarita wrote:This topic does not belong to this thread but mantra japa (verbal) is also an aspect in tantra. Not as effective as inner vaak but it is effective esp. in the expansion of the Maalini vs. contraction. We can discuss elswhere

Also Droy - I have never understood how our contemporary gurus keep condemning Maya. If all is shiva then how is maya separate. They contradict themselves. The siddhis come from Amba. To curse them is to curse Amba.

We should halt this discussion now given the moderators.

Jarita Maya's theory propogated by Sankara is very different than thought and condemned by people. By Maya what he means is how we project our prejudices and contionings upon the world and life thus distorting it. Its like wearing specs of distorted glass. These distorted glasses are our projection and prejudices with which we see reality. Dropping these specs is what enlightenment is. :)
Hee Hee mods thanks for your compassion in advance and letting these two posts be here.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby D Roy » 08 Nov 2009 14:00

I second RayC,

India above all else.


On the other hand, it is too early to pass a judgement on Baba ramdev's recent moves to enter the political realm. By all counts he has already helped countless millions and any move by him to enter the political arena must be judged on its merits and not by a notion of separation between spirituality and politics.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 14:03

D Roy wrote:I second RayC,

India above all else.


On the other hand, it is too early to pass a judgement on Baba ramdev's recent moves to enter the political realm. By all counts he has already helped countless millions and any move by him to enter the political arena must be judged on its merits and not by a notion of separation between spirituality and politics.


I appreciate his yoga work and I appreciate the other yoga people.

But mixing politics is not the answer!

When I go to a doctor for my ailment, I would surely not like a discourse on poetical thought.

If I go for yoga, it is for my physical and mental well being and not my political health!

Dharnai dharum Sohum su!

Mediate upon the Eternal!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby D Roy » 08 Nov 2009 15:52

RayC,

but having done Yoga work does not disqualify him from participating in politics, does it?

there is no prima facie reason for disparaging any political moves on his part. It is too premature to pass a judgement on his future path. his yoga efforts and possible political career should be judged on their merits. if he turns put to be a politician who continues to help people in a different way, so be it.


Moreover if he is seeking to use the constituency built up by his yoga efforts and social work as a launchpad into politics, that's fine too. Given that all varieties of film and assorted naatakwaallahs get so much traction in politics, a yoga guru should be par for the course as well.

in fact who indeed graduates from a "political school" nowadays?

once in the political arena, its his work that should count anyway. if the halo is not real it would be soon put to test by the discerning indian voter.

As far as babas is politics are concerned, why should we discriminate against this one, when we are feting so many other

"babas" - 'born into politics' in our great media anyway. if you know what I mean. :wink:

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pranav » 08 Nov 2009 16:08

D Roy wrote:
As far as babas is politics are concerned, why should we discriminate against this one, when we are feting so many other

"babas" - 'born into politics' in our great media anyway. if you know what I mean. :wink:


Nice! :)

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 21:05

D Roy wrote:RayC,

but having done Yoga work does not disqualify him from participating in politics, does it?

there is no prima facie reason for disparaging any political moves on his part. It is too premature to pass a judgement on his future path. his yoga efforts and possible political career should be judged on their merits. if he turns put to be a politician who continues to help people in a different way, so be it.


Moreover if he is seeking to use the constituency built up by his yoga efforts and social work as a launchpad into politics, that's fine too. Given that all varieties of film and assorted naatakwaallahs get so much traction in politics, a yoga guru should be par for the course as well.

in fact who indeed graduates from a "political school" nowadays?

once in the political arena, its his work that should count anyway. if the halo is not real it would be soon put to test by the discerning indian voter.

As far as babas is politics are concerned, why should we discriminate against this one, when we are feting so many other

"babas" - 'born into politics' in our great media anyway. if you know what I mean. :wink:


If politics is a badge of honour these days, then he sure should be in politics or my Weapons Training ustad!! I respect their skill, but they are no Gods!

At the same time, what I find uncomfortable is that one (Ramu) says things and yet not upfront. Smug and coy!

Check We the People and see how he he wriggled out!

Ramu, maybe god to some. He is a yoga master to me as is my karate master.Both are good at their profession which earns them their daily bread! Going beyond is a bit slippery!

Roy, wasn't there a Babaji who kicked you on the head to bless? I would be damned to be kicked for a blessing! I believe Advani visited him in Mathura to be kicked on the head!

Yoga is to give perfect health. How come one of Ramu's eye is small compared to the other eye?

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 08 Nov 2009 21:57

RayC wrote:Yoga is to give perfect health. How come one of Ramu's eye is small compared to the other eye?


As per what I read --- he had paralysis (or polio?) when he was a kid ; he only partially recovered at home and then he escaped from home to join a Yoga Ashram in Haridwar. There, he fully recovered from all damages caused by the paralysis/polio within 3-4 years, but this minor deformity like one eye is small remained. Now, this is what I read from an email sent from an BST guy on Ramdevji's biography. I dont know for sure.

And if possible, pls avoid calling him as "Ramu". Pls use word "Ramu" if and after he does something disrespectful like taking bribes after winning elections. Till then, he is a respectable private person who is doing a good work in Yog. So pls call him "Ramdev" if not "Ramdevji". AFAIS, he is doing a good and great job by creating an open platform of concerned guys and forming a political group. So he truly deserves a "ji".

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Jarita » 08 Nov 2009 22:10

Rahul Mehta wrote:
RayC wrote:Yoga is to give perfect health. How come one of Ramu's eye is small compared to the other eye?


As per what I read --- he had paralysis (or polio?) when he was a kid ; he only partially recovered at home and then he escaped from home to join a Yoga Ashram in Haridwar. There, he fully recovered from all damages caused by the paralysis/polio within 3-4 years, but this minor deformity like one eye is small remained. Now, this is what I read from an email sent from an BST guy on Ramdevji's biography. I dont know for sure.

And if possible, pls avoid calling him as "Ramu". Pls use word "Ramu" if and after he does something disrespectful like taking bribes after winning elections. Till then, he is a respectable private person who is doing a good work in Yog. So pls call him "Ramdev" if not "Ramdevji". AFAIS, he is doing a good and great job by creating an open platform of concerned guys and forming a political group. So he truly deserves a "ji".



Yes. That is true. He made significant recovery due to yoga which is not possible through conventional medicine. My relative got rid of respiratory allergies through his pranayama and medicines.
Remember that Ramdevji is an religious icon for many Indians. We may not agree with all he does but the good he he has done far outweighs any mistakes he may have made. DO NOT CALL HIM BY ANY FUNNY NICKNAMES. You are insulting the religious ethos of millions of Indians.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 22:43

You are insulting the religious ethos of millions of Indians.


And what about those who are lampooning other religions?

Have you counselled them?

Rahul Mehta,

He maybe your family deity for all that it matters to me. To me he is human being and to be friendly should be called by an endearing name.

Like I told some poster to just call me Ray and no other honorific since we are equal in a forum!

Let us no stand on high hobby horses!

If so why don't you call MMS, Baba MMS? He is respected by many! And quit criticising him and others!

Allah, Mohammed and Jesus and Christianity are also revered by many. Should we quit discussing those? If you cannot stop discussion on such isues, what is so great about this man Ramdev?

Be fair!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby D Roy » 08 Nov 2009 22:46

RayC,

if all the qualities you listed about 'Ramu' hold then he is even more 'set' for Indian politics then one can imagine. :wink:


However to be serious, like I said, neither 'ramu' nor shyam nor your ustad can be disqualified from joining politics just on the face of it. :D ( you might disagree about your ustad with just cause having observed him at close quarters)

and yes the halo or deityhood should be put to test in the political arena. I mean, no more or less leeway should be given to anybody joining the political fray in the janta ki adalat irrespective of what they might be in other places.

However you must allow the man to join and see what he does before dismissing him outright.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 22:51

D Roy wrote:RayC,

if all the qualities you listed about 'Ramu' hold then he is even more 'set' for Indian politics then one can imagine. :wink:


However to be serious, like I said, neither 'ramu' nor shyam nor your ustad can be disqualified from joining politics just on the face of it. :D ( you might disagree about your ustad with just cause having observed him at close quarters)

and yes the halo or deityhood should be put to test in the political arena. I mean, no more or less leeway should be given to anybody joining the political fray in the janta ki adalat irrespective of what they might be in other places.

However you must allow the man to join and see what he does before dismissing him outright.


No one can stop Ramuji from joining, but he should make his intentions clear and not hedge and hum! From a yoga master, he graduated to religion and now into politics. His intentions is important.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby D Roy » 08 Nov 2009 22:59

No politician can say as to why he is in politics other than to do 'jan Seva'- which ramdev can rightfully claim he has been doing.
the humming and hawing is part and and parcel of political life in india. coming to think of it, this is actually a civilisational malady in india. there are simply no points for being a straight shooter in civil society in india and cedrtainly not in politics where you must watch every step with your mouth. remember a former prime minister's pregnant pauses punctuated by meaningful one liners?
Last edited by D Roy on 08 Nov 2009 23:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 23:01

D Roy wrote:No politician can make his intentions as to why he is in politics except to do 'jan Seva' which he can rightfully claim he has been doing.
the humming and hawing is part and and parcel of political life in india. coming to think of it, this is actually a civilisational malady in india. there's no points for being a straight shooter in civil society in india and cedrtainly not in politics where you must watch every step with your mouth. remember a former prime minister's pregnant pauses punctuated by meaningful one liners?


So he is a politician and not a yoga master!

Fair enough for me.

Should say so!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby D Roy » 08 Nov 2009 23:05

Well if politics becomes a chosen path for him, he better become a politician first and anything else next.
Also for you yoga master is the same as karate master so there should not be any spirituality vs politics type of dilemmas in any case.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 23:10

D Roy wrote:Well if politics becomes a chosen path for him, he better become a politician first and anything else next.
Also for you yoga master is the same as karate master so there should not be any spirituality vs politics type of dilemmas in any case.


Good for him.

But it in no way means I have to deify him!

Allah is God to many, but he does not find the same place here amongst many!

So why the double standard as exemplied by this post:

Quote:
You are insulting the religious ethos of millions of Indians.


And that too about a mere human who is no God!! Nor of the staure of Ramkrishna Paramahansa, Vivekananda or Sri Aurobindo!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby D Roy » 08 Nov 2009 23:13

Good for him.

But it in no way means I have to deify him!




nobody should, till there is a real test of time.

However everybody must be judged on their merits in their chosen path and must be given a chance. not pre-judged.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Prem » 08 Nov 2009 23:24

Ray Sir Ji
Allah is God to many but not to all or majority here . Allah can be name of Supreme but Supreme is not limited to term Allah and this is the basic difference in approach. Sri Ramkrishna gladly chanted Allah and Guru Nanak has also reffered to Supreme Lord with the name of Allah but this Allah is not the limited entity as entertained in Arabic Ideoligical Doctrine (AID) . The qualities and understanding assigned to this "Allah" are all of Non Arabic in nature and origin. There are sepcific meanings ,connotations, symbols behind the gold plated "godly" names practiced by Indians so they stick to it with their Breath and Soul.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 23:29

Prem wrote:Ray Sir Ji
Allah is God to many but not to all or majority here . Allah can be name of Supreme but Supreme is not limited to term Allah and this is the basic difference in approach. Sri Ramkrishna gladly chanted Allah and Guru Nanak has also reffered to Supreme Lord with the name of Allah but this Allah is not the limited entity as entertained in Arabic Ideoligical Doctrine (AID) . The qualities and understanding assigned to this "Allah" are all of Non Arabic in nature and origin. There are sepcific meanings ,connotations, symbols behind the gold plated "godly" names practiced by Indians so they stick to it with their Breath and Soul.


So this is a country for the majority?

Then say so.

And be done with it.

Why a charade?

Indic and all that?
Yet, on the other hand, I saw today's WE the People. It was most pleasing to see a Muslim boy taking a stand that the fatwa was total nonsense and he would sing Vande Mataram. He was being cut short by Bukhari who was shouted out!

Let us help such Muslims to feel Indians first and Muslims second!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Umrao Das » 08 Nov 2009 23:34

when I come to this thread why do I feel insecure about Leadership and future of India? Is it if BRF is having a thread going on like this are we secure and sound about Leadership, India, and strategy?

I have to stock on pop corn becaue when it pops it almost resembles fire at will :mrgreen:

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 23:38

Umrao Das wrote:when I come to this thread why do I feel insecure about Leadership and future of India? Is it if BRF is having a thread going on like this are we secure and sound about Leadership, India, and strategy?

I have to stock on pop corn becaue when it pops it almost resembles fire at will :mrgreen:


Keep your pop corn.

Read my post on what is Strategic Leadership!

I have no fear and insecurity. I know myself and my origins. I am proud of my origins. I don't have to flaunt it to find courage!

I don't have to muster people to find that courage in numbers. I have it in me and I believe in 'Akla Cholo' even if none joins me!

No one can change our national character! India is Great and it will survive!

It is the weak and the feeble in mind, who find shadows everywhere stalking them!

The future will be bright for India if we stop dividing society!

And being a GENUINE Indian, I would rather have shattu (which I do) than American popcorn!

I introduced Litti as a survival ration in my unit and I am not a Bihari! As also Bombil (dried Bombay duck)! No chocolates and other western survival rations!

Not a cosmetic Indian!

Proud to be an Indian, will proudly die as an Indian but no cosmetic philological claptrap from me nor can such humbug change me!

Indian I am and Indian I shall die!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Jarita » 09 Nov 2009 00:52

RayC wrote:And that too about a mere human who is no God!! Nor of the staure of Ramkrishna Paramahansa, Vivekananda or Sri Aurobindo!



What is the state of this nation when a man who has dedicated his whole life to improving physical, mental and emotional health of people is equated to a petty politician. His is a life of a renunciate who has channeled all energies into improving the human condition. And yet we think nothing of him and make fun of his disability.
If his name was Abdullah or Mother Teresa, we would have praised him to the skies. We would have put all our energies behind him. However, counterparts to these kind of individuals are rare in non-indic traditions. Even Mother Teresa attached the conditionality of conversion to her services. Ramdevji does not do that even being a devout Hindu.
Maybe Ramdevji is a terrible politician but he is a wonderful human being.
In our quest to be fair to others we have become unfair to the man/woman in the saffron cloth. Those who give up everything for us.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 09 Nov 2009 01:04

Jarita wrote:
RayC wrote:And that too about a mere human who is no God!! Nor of the staure of Ramkrishna Paramahansa, Vivekananda or Sri Aurobindo!



What is the state of this nation when a man who has dedicated his whole life to improving physical, mental and emotional health of people is equated to a petty politician. His is a life of a renunciate who has channeled all energies into improving the human condition. And yet we think nothing of him and make fun of his disability.
If his name was Abdullah or Mother Teresa, we would have praised him to the skies. We would have put all our energies behind him. However, counterparts to these kind of individuals are rare in non-indic traditions. Even Mother Teresa attached the conditionality of conversion to her services. Ramdevji does not do that even being a devout Hindu.
Maybe Ramdevji is a terrible politician but he is a wonderful human being.
In our quest to be fair to others we have become unfair to the man/woman in the saffron cloth. Those who give up everything for us.


Interesting idea!

What is the state of this nation when a man who has dedicated his whole life to protecting the nation and he is taken to be a hero and yet his family is not cared for?

I buried Mother Teresa.

She must have been a great human being!

I have my own opinion !

Neither Mother Teresa nor Ramdev is an icon to me.

They were/are serving their own purpose!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 09 Nov 2009 05:26

Thank you RayC-ji. I agree with the important part of your post. The rest is how each one of us wants to address the problem. Some wants to offer more accommodation, others self-flagging, and the rest to show tough-love.

My apologies if I attributed something to you that you did not say. Please read your own posts to see the tone/language you use to criticize Hindu leaders and the tone/language you use to criticize the others. You will get the picture.

I am proud of Indian armed forces. But you are wrong in that it is army that is keeping India ONE. It goes against the point you made in another thread, that army will obey the GOI decision. For example if the political leadership of India decides to give up a part of India, either to become an independent entity or to be part of another nation, army has to accept that decision.

In India the paramount authority is PM and his counsel of ministers. That is why they are made responsible (good or bad) for everything that happens in this nation. Every other group or stakeholder including Indian armed forces play a supportive role at best.

It is natural for a group to think too much about its own contributions. To be honest, with all due respect, IMVHO the police force deserves more kudos than the armed forces. They are ill trained, under equipped, are exposed to all the influences of civil society, yet fight equally dangerous, if not more dangerous, enemies such as Maoists, terrorists, and mafia.

Neither of us know Baba Ramdev’s strategy or preferences behind attending the meeting. Imagine what would you think/say if he rejects the invitation of Darul, prior to their fartwa against Vandemataram?

I am a Hindu and am proud of being a Hindu. I believe that India owes its secular democracy to its Hindu majority. My personal beliefs and preferences do not matter when I discuss about India’s strategic future and leadership.

Hinduism cannot be treated as a religion as defined in western-construct. Hinduism is a way of life in its true sense and form. In that aspect, Hinduism must be and will be part of Indian strategic landscape, whether one likes it or not. A RSS, a Baba Ramdev, a Satya Saibaba, an Amritanandamai are part of this nation building. Any ideology that is not from this land will run the risk of being loyal to non-indian interests. If someone doesn’t see it, that is their opinion.

P.S: I am not a member of RSS or any other religious/political/social group/organization. I just have a different POV from that of yours. You are a moderator and are most welcome to delete any of my posts if they are not related to the thread or (ask me to) move them to the right thread.

Why should I quit BRF, just because I do not like your/others perspective?

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Hari Seldon » 09 Nov 2009 05:34

Justto clarify, I honor the service of every fauji who has served Bharat mata. Period.

Doesn't mean one has to honor (or even humor) their political opinions and religious views as well. 2 different things, IMHO.
Last edited by Hari Seldon on 09 Nov 2009 07:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Prem » 09 Nov 2009 06:40

Sir RayC Ji
First you bring Allah in discussion and second you want Indics to belive in this Divinity qualified by Islamist Doctrine and then you have complaints and apprehenions that Indics dont belive in any of this. No where i said Islamist have to belive or follow what Indics say . Sir Ji , please dont shift goal posts or post's' goal.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Nov 2009 10:51

RayC wrote:Check your posts!

As far as the BRF is concerned, we have no religious or political agenda or so I understand.


RayC - this is directed at you.

Being proud of ones religious and cultural tradition in itself cannot be accused of
inciting divisions. If you don't understand this distinction - than shame on you for
accusing me falsely and shame on me if I do not stand up to false accusations.

RayC wrote:May this refresh your memories!
Don't weasel out!


Grow up! - this is not a competition.
I accept that you have the best intentions for India in mind.
As far as your response, I cannot characterize if to deserve one from me.
Don't deny my care for the notion of Bharat aka India.

Bharat Rakshak Forum -

This is general feedback to BRF - RayC it got nothing to do with you
You are merely the business end of the stick on this one:

Some of us care for a Bharat, an ancient civilization, that preexisted the current secular Indian state.
This forum requires that members such as me who care about Bharat
conform to the contours of a sanitized, unnatural and bland version of the diversity
exhibited by Bharat even today - that some how this is the only way, a new way.
Realize that the Forum is not a state to remain secular - it is a social network! :roll:
Military folks may love following orders - civilians do not :mrgreen:

The admins here seem keen to impose on us mere posters the same sanitized, unnatural
and bland version of their belief in what Bharat, nay India, is to them.
Faced with opposition, we are asked to go elsewhere, as this forum's distorted version of
Bharat must be maintained for whatever reason - which is irrelevant to me.

In the face of relentless pressure to maintain such artificial contours,
what I have seen (having been here since the start) is that intelligent opinion is
slowly giving way to conspiracy theories, collective group thinks, etc.

PS: Here is a hypothetical experiment for you - shut down the Strategy and Economic
Forum and see how many folks remain or for that matter come back.

Bharat is not anyone's bap ka jaydad, if someone cares to represent it in a way
that does not conform with the truth or the diversity in thought it exhibits
and if they claim to be Rakshak's of such a concept -
expect to be challenged - Simple enough! :twisted:

As always, admins and owners you are free to ignore my feedback - :mrgreen:
It is an agenda to have no religious or political agenda and yet allow it to exist. :rotfl:
The joke is on all of us posters that we have been pre-judged to not know the difference
between normative and non-normative arguments.

This is where the strategic leadership for the future of India is to emerge! :shock: :eek: :roll:


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