Strategic leadership for the future of India

RamaY
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 05 Nov 2009 21:38

RayC-ji

Yes. Our glorious past did help us. To stand as a nation, united, when this nation was bifurcated in the name of religion after hundreds of years of colonization. If you think about it, it was a miracle. I dare say it was the Hindu ethos that saved the nation that day. And I dare say it is the Hindu ethos that is saving our national secular fabric. Just see for yourself what is happening in the states where the so-called abrahamic-minorities are in majority.

Who is saying Hinduism is a narrow-minded schism? Not me nor any of the so-called hindutvavadis. It is people like you, who are “imposing” the non-existent narrow-mindedness on hindutvavadis. BTW, why are you supporting the narrow-minded schism of a religious minority, that issued a fatwa against singing this land’s national song?

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 05 Nov 2009 21:42

I say the national constitution should override the ideological leadership.


You bet it.

Too much of fraud is being pandered for votes!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 05 Nov 2009 21:49

RamaY wrote:RayC-ji

Yes. Our glorious past did help us. To stand as a nation, united, when this nation was bifurcated in the name of religion after hundreds of years of colonization. If you think about it, it was a miracle. I dare say it was the Hindu ethos that saved the nation that day. And I dare say it is the Hindu ethos that is saving our national secular fabric. Just see for yourself what is happening in the states where the so-called abrahamic-minorities are in majority.

Who is saying Hinduism is a narrow-minded schism? Not me nor any of the so-called hindutvavadis. It is people like you, who are “imposing” the non-existent narrow-mindedness on hindutvavadis. BTW, why are you supporting the narrow-minded schism of a religious minority, that issued a fatwa against singing this land’s national song?


Indeed the Hindu ethos is saving this Nation!


I will put the cards on the table, even if means howls on the Forum for Complaints against Mods or where the Mods discuss the other Mods fault.

Jai Chand was a Muslim?

Akbar was a Hindu?

VP Singh was a Muslim?

Sachar was a Muslim?

Rajiv Gandhi was a Muslim?

They have all pandered to their selfish interests.

These are your leaders through history!

So cut the wail and realise the reality!

Why blame others?

I am dead against the idiotic nonsense of Moslems not singing Vande Mataram. That is why I posted what Md Arif Khan has written.

You are so bigoted against what I write that you don't even read what I write and assume what you wnat to assume!

I have no time for any religion.

My NATION comes FIRST always and everytime!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby negi » 05 Nov 2009 21:55

RayC wrote:Baba Ramdev may be a God to you. I don't think much of him. Another publicity hunter. Have you done yoga? I am sure you will say yes.

To be honest I don't do yoga unless I am with my parents when my mother forces me to do pranayaam , but my indifference towards yoga as such notwithstanding I would say everyone seeks publicity to some extent specially the ones who wish to to do something for the society without publicity how will one reach to the masses ?

What is important is what they 'preach' and 'practice' , and I think Baba Ramdev unlike the politicos of today does not speak with a forked tongue. He has been very clear about his idea about preaching and spreading Yoga and if it requires people to substitue 'Om' with a syllable of their choice nothing wrong with it.

His visit to madarasa or an Islamic institution is a bold and a welcome step something the other so called Hindutwavadis should seek to emulate who do nothing apart from wearing their religion on sleeve.

But a serious yoga man does not dabble in politics!

Why ? One has to step inside the ring if the dirt has to be cleared . We cannot stand outside and merely point out the deficiencies of the system , someone has to do it.

Baba Ramdev realises that his followers have grown in numbers over the years and if he thinks that he can exploit his position to bring about a change in the current political equation what is wrong with that ? Given the background of majority of the politicians in India and their contribution to country at a personal level Baba Ramdev is an exemplar in his field and more importantly despite the Media's attempts of clubbing him alongside the so called Hindutwavadis he has managed to keep himself away from the former.

Imho greatest contribution of Baba Ramdev is that he has to some extent been successful in convincing the a segment of people that Yoga<>Hindutwa ( a term which has been unfortunately maligned to such an extent that any association with it will lead to outright rejection by a large segment of Indian population).

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 05 Nov 2009 21:57

Ramdev should have done his yoga and not dabbled in controversies!

It ruins the environment!

What is the big deal with Islam?

What has he offered them and why?

Let them stew in their own juices!

As far as 'Om' trying saying it with a deep breath, you will know the difference!

Do it by saying any other thing and see the difference!

Let us not defend Ramu and his political aspirations!

Religion and politics is a dangerous combination!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Abhi_G » 05 Nov 2009 22:06

Post 1947 India always sees Swamis suspiciously, even though it is conceded there are numerous who are just for publicity and are fakes. But why is the same equation not extended to the plethora of ulemas? Nehruvian secularists and leftists do not leave an inch for any meaningful discussion. Any association with the word "Hindu" is equated with fascism - branding is done openly "you are a fascist". Not many genuine sanyasis can overcome this very strong grip of media and political narrative and turn the tables the other way round.

The same fascist hunting intellectuals would not speak a single word against the rabid ulemas and mullahs who basically keep their flock tightly by terrorizing them by violence. Please visit the psy-ops therad to check the election pamphlet of the NCP party from Aurangabad. This mullah basically says "Hinduwokan naam o nishan mitana hain Aurangabad se". Not a single leftist intellectual has spoken against this. Leave aside Sharad Pawar whose party has given a ticket to this candidate. However, all this while witch hunting is continued as to how our national song is unislamic and therefore not acceptable nationally.
Last edited by Abhi_G on 05 Nov 2009 22:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby SwamyG » 05 Nov 2009 22:09

RamaY wrote:Coming back to the topic; the leadership happens at different levels IMO - spiritual, intellectual, social, occupational etc. The national leadership must work towards realizing the dream of this nation; whatever that is. But thinking that it somehow contradicts with spritual leadership is wrong.

The problem is when as aspect of nationalism conflicts with a specific ideology. What should change? The ideology or constitution? The so-called secularists say they should be left alone. I say the national constitution should override the ideological leadership.

So what is that dream. I have said it several times, we as a nation need to provide the aam admi a vision or a dream. Nation vs Ideology is an interesting conflict. The answer would be "it depends". The concept of nation states is pretty recent phenomenon (utmost 300-400 years). When we are born in the 21st century, nationality is thrust upon us. And so is ideology to an extent. Can't one argue nationalism is in itself an ideology?

I saw parts of Ramadev's speech on August 15th. I was pretty impressed. I have not followed news about him, so have not formed any opinion yet.
Last edited by SwamyG on 05 Nov 2009 22:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 05 Nov 2009 22:09

RayC-ji,

Only five names :lol:

My question was why do one need to translate Vandmataram in to Urdu to make it acceptable? There are many illiterates in AP, Karnataka, Tamilnadu, Gujarat, Punjab etc... nowhere else Vandemataram required a translation to become acceptable.

It is very funny you are fighting on this issue with all of us. In reality, you should be fighting with those who issued the Fatwa; calling them all the names you call hindutvavadis. Instead you are questioning the motivs of Ramdev and PC... what a shame.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Hari Seldon » 05 Nov 2009 22:13

Sri RayC's convinction tempered with soft exclamations has convinced even my sceptical soul!

He is right and it is true, whatever he is saying! That's it!

No more controversies!

My humble 2 (per)centi only!

Thank you!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 05 Nov 2009 22:25

RamaY wrote:RayC-ji,

Only five names :lol:

My question was why do one need to translate Vandmataram in to Urdu to make it acceptable? There are many illiterates in AP, Karnataka, Tamilnadu, Gujarat, Punjab etc... nowhere else Vandemataram required a translation to become acceptable.

It is very funny you are fighting on this issue with all of us. In reality, you should be fighting with those who issued the Fatwa; calling them all the names you call hindutvavadis. Instead you are questioning the motivs of Ramdev and PC... what a shame.



It is a requirement to translate into Urdu as Md Arif has done, who is a patriot in my opinion.

I interact daily with a whole lot of Muslim illiterates who have no clue of Islam. I teach them on Islam and the incorrect stuff pandered by the mullahs! Interestingly, they listen and agree. I have challenged them to bring the mullahs and have a talk with me!

Let me ask you to admire people like Md Arif who is so patriotic. Help them to help unite the country. Let a Muslim name not be a red rag to you all!

I am fighting those who issued the Fatwa on Vande Mataram. In fact today I explained the same to the Muslim workers and they agreed. Fortunately, they are Bengalis and not so rabid!

Likewise, I have no time for Ramdev who has entered the political arena. Just not done! He maybe God to you, but he is a squint eyed yoga master to me, overwhelmed by his popularity and lost his bearings!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby SwamyG » 05 Nov 2009 22:26

Hari: Awww....so is this thread going to be locked up too? I see that we have already descended to using a person's physical characteristic against him to prove a point. In tamil they say "Yaanai varum pinne mani osai varum munne". One hears the bell on an elephant before one sees the elephant. Are you seeing or hearing something in your crystal ball about this thread?
Last edited by SwamyG on 05 Nov 2009 22:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 05 Nov 2009 22:28

SwamyG wrote:Hari: Awww....so is this thread going to be locked up too?


Not really.

I can unlock it!

Open Sesame!

Call me Ali Baba.

You don't appreciate the truth?

I know it hurts.

I assure you that it hurts me possibly more than you.

But then I was brought up to face the truth and NOT hide behind falsehood!

That's why I get into hassles. I say what I feel and that may not be what others feel!

No time for crystal balls. Try the real balls!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pranav » 05 Nov 2009 22:32

RayC wrote:Likewise, I have no time for Ramdev who has entered the political arena. Just not done! He maybe God to you, but he is a squint eyed yoga master to me!


The main cause of the rampant corruption is the apathy towards politics.

So I welcome Ramdev Baba's political program. We need millions who are politically aware and active.

The transaction tax idea, however, is bad. People will resort to barter, and it will lead to a less efficient economy. Having a transaction tax is like putting sand in the gears of an economy. An economy which facilitates smooth, efficient transactions, with easy availability of information, is an efficient economy.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 05 Nov 2009 22:37

Ramakrishna Paramhansa was a great saint. He left a great religious legacy.

Was he a political man?

He could have been so.

India was in a turmoil!

And Ramu, the TV yaga icon, is nowhere to him in stature and can never be try as he might!

He is OK in the cowbelt, where even Mayawati is a great icon!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby SwamyG » 05 Nov 2009 22:37

RayC wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Hari: Awww....so is this thread going to be locked up too?


You don't appreciate the truth?

I know it hurts.

I assure you that it hurts me possibly more than you.

But then I was brought up to face the truth and NOT hide behind falsehood!

That's why I get into hassles. I say what I feel and that may not be what others feel!

No time for crystal balls. Try the real balls!


RayC: I do not wish to enter into a conversation with you for the moment. Sorry if it hurts you, because it hurts me as well.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 05 Nov 2009 22:38

SwamyG wrote:[

RayC: I do not wish to enter into a conversation with you for the moment. Sorry if it hurts you, because it hurts me as well.


Thank you for being so considerate!

You are better than I.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby SRoy » 05 Nov 2009 22:41

RayC wrote:I have no time for any religion.

"Religion" I heard is a Western construct.

>>
RayC wrote:Jai Chand was a Muslim?

Mir Jaffer was.

RayC wrote:Akbar was a Hindu?

The Mauryas, Guptas and countless pre-Islamic were.

RayC wrote:VP Singh was a Muslim? Rajiv Gandhi was a Muslim?

Odd choices! What about Shastri and PVNR? Congressis to boot they were!

RayC wrote:Sachar was a Muslim?

A paid govt. servant, that too probably a Sikh. Doesn't count.
>>

Anyone can cherry pick example, to defend the indefensible.

Something that works for you might not work out for others and vice-versa.

For you a wannabe Western country like South Korea or Philipines might be acceptable. That absolutely okay. Yet there are people that would like to preserve their distinct cultural identity. That also okay.

It is a sign of greatness if you are able to reconcile the both streams.
Last edited by SRoy on 05 Nov 2009 23:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pranav » 05 Nov 2009 22:55

brihaspati wrote:The main point to note is that similar token allowances were also given in the early days of Islam, wherever and whenever, the forces of Islam were felt to be weak. There are some classic cases of "allowances" of pre-Islamic forms temporarily - which has been later on clariified as a necessary tactic of "struggle" - deception.

The fact that some of us are takeing pleasure in the apparent compromise being made by the Ulema is proof enough that decption works. Such measures from the Ulema show a high degree of political maturity that allows visually captivating tokens for propaganda machinery on both sides to cease upon and highlight. It is designed to lull the suspicion and alertness of non-Muslim populations so that more serious issues are allowed to pass through without much scrutiny.

It would have been a positive token, if the Baba Ramdev demonstration was being organized or attended to, voluntarily by Muslims at the lowest level of Islamic structuring and hierarchy - as individuals or local groups. When such a demonstration happens only at the behest of the Ulema - the Ulemaic authority to decide what is "best" for the IM is being reinforced.


Brihaspati ji, Ramdev Baba's interactions with the Ulema are not end of the journey - it is the beginning.

Already lakhs of Muslims have attended his camps. With this endorsement of the Ulema, the number may significantly increase.

The first step is to make people more aware of their Indic ancestry, and have pride in the positive aspects of their pre-Islamic heritage. Then they need to mentally evolve to a point where they are amenable to logic and rationality, and don't just go by blind belief. That is the stage at which one can begin to challenge theological doctrines by means of rational dialogue. It will not be productive to bluntly assault the cherished beliefs of people before they are mentally ready for it, before they have a credible alternative frame of reference.

In fact, why focus on Muslims, we first need this kind of program for Hindus - too many young people are being brought up on the deliberate mindlessness of Bollywood and Star TV.

Also, there are things that were true in previous centuries which are not valid today. Today's enviroment is thousands of times more information-rich than that of a few centuries ago. It's a different ball-game, and the old rules do not necessarily apply.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby D Roy » 05 Nov 2009 22:59

Ramkrishna and Vivekananda are the prime movers of India's freedom.

Ramkrishna is the mother of the Indian nation and Vivekananda the true father.

Sri Aurobindo, Bapu, Netaji, Tilak and Maulana Azad all follow.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pranav » 05 Nov 2009 23:05

RayC wrote:Ramakrishna Paramhansa was a great saint. He left a great religious legacy.

Was he a political man?

He could have been so.

India was in a turmoil!

And Ramu, the TV yaga icon, is nowhere to him in stature and can never be try as he might!

He is OK in the cowbelt, where even Mayawati is a great icon!


Is Ramdev Baba's political program helping society, raising awareness? Is there anybody else with such a wide audience, who talks about corruption?

If Ramdev is helping people, more power to him. Simple as that.

Ramakrishna Paramahansa was a giant, and through disciples like Vivekananda, has influenced millions. But lesser people can also contribute, and it's not that everybody should function in exactly the same way.


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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby gandharva » 05 Nov 2009 23:16

He is OK in the cowbelt, where even Mayawati is a great icon!


This explains why Bengalis opted for Communism.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby negi » 05 Nov 2009 23:18

RayC couple of things Bab Ramdev is a common man he holds no public office his visit has little political significance as against PC's who visits a religious institute and talks about alienation of IMs , painting a grim picture of IMs as if they were discriminated against by all and sundry.And on top of this he has the galls to rake up Babri masjid issue , what on earth was this man thinking ?

Religious harmony cannot be achieved by pointing fingers certainly not at a community which has been by and large tolerant and certainly not hostile by any stretch of imagination . The elements in the GOI who are hell bent on legitimizing and justifying misplaced fears of IMs by raking up events of the past which mind you were carried out by elements which never received support of a common Hindu in first place will only worsen the atmosphere as far as religious harmony is concerned.

To me such people in GOI are more dangerous than a paki like Kasab who just cause a short term dammage at a lower scale . I still remember some people describing 26/11 as a reaction to Babri masjid and Godhara episode , where do you think an average IM picks up such crap from ,its from from the statements issued by likes of PC and other GOI offices which time and again rake up Babri and Godhara issues .Btw if GOI is indeed serious about resolving these then why haven't been the guilty been brought to book ?

I am yet to see PC or his ilk visit some Sikh religious organization and air similar views about the 1984 riots . Some time back MMS issued a statement about IMs being targeted by the Indian judiciary but then last I checked Sanjay Dutt has served more prison time as compared to likes of Salman khan despite latter having run over people on a footpath.Don't tell me likes of Afzal gurus now qualify as IMs being victimized by the IPC. :roll:

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 05 Nov 2009 23:20

Pranav wrote:Is Ramdev Baba's political program helping society, raising awareness? Is there anybody else with such a wide audience, who talks about corruption?

If Ramdev is helping people, more power to him. Simple as that.

Ramakrishna Paramahansa was a giant, and through disciples like Vivekananda, has influenced millions. But lesser people can also contribute, and it's not that everybody should function in exactly the same way.


Heard of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar?

Is he anything less?

Let Ramu preach in Pakistan!

That would be a greater service to the Nation.

I will admire him!

What is the difference from that Imam of Jama Masjid!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 05 Nov 2009 23:21

I am sure RayC-ji, you are doing whatever you can and I am sure you are influencing their lives in your own way. But the issue at hand is

A Ulema meeting invites a Hindu Yoga guru and Cabinet Minister of GOI to show its secular [sic] credentials. After they leave, the same ulema issues a fatwa against singing the national song. And we are discussing the intentions and motivations of of Baba Ramdev and PC. What we are missing is the devious nature of the Ulema. This is a staged event by the ulema to gain the legitimacy in the eyes of majority for the Ulema and then continue with their plans to subvert the very nationalism these distinguished guests represent.

Our jugalbandi started when you, instead of criticizing that Ulema alone for what is conspired, criticized the religious leaders of all faiths in India for their narrow-minded fear-mongering tactics. This is wrong. In addition to that, you started criticizing Baba Ramdev’s intentions and approach, who tried to extend his own area (yoga) by asking the muslim-attendees to pray their Ista-Devata instead of Om, which is against their religious sentiments.

Is it really narrow-mindedness to ask all Indians to sing Vandemataram irrespective of their religious believes? OR Is it true narrow-mindedness when one insists that one cannot pray their Ista Devata but say Om when they practice yoga?

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby SRoy » 05 Nov 2009 23:21

gandharva wrote:
He is OK in the cowbelt, where even Mayawati is a great icon!


This explains why Bengalis opted for Communism.

Due to an arrogant "bhadralok" class in Kolkata, that claims to speak for all Bengalis.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 05 Nov 2009 23:26

RayC wrote:Heard of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar?

Is he anything less?


If you watch the debate between Sri Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and the great Zakir Naik you will know the difference. Even I could have done better.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Abhi_G » 05 Nov 2009 23:26

Was this Zakir Naik?

Non-muslim countries allow Islam in their midst because in the depths of their hearts non-muslims know that Islam is THE truth. Muslim countries do not allow other religions to flourish because Islam is THE truth and everything else is falsehood.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pranav » 05 Nov 2009 23:30

RamaY wrote:In addition to that, you started criticizing Baba Ramdev’s intentions and approach, who tried to extend his own area (yoga) by asking the muslim-attendees to pray their Ista-Devata instead of Om, which is against their religious sentiments.

Is it really narrow-mindedness to ask all Indians to sing Vandemataram irrespective of their religious believes? OR Is it true narrow-mindedness when one insists that one cannot pray their Ista Devata but say Om when they practice yoga?


I think issues are being mixed.

Ramdev Baba is well-intentioned when he says it's OK to say something else instead of Om. But Sanskrit Mantras are said to have their own power and subtle effects. So saying "God" instead of Om may not be such a good thing.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pranav » 05 Nov 2009 23:34

RayC wrote:Heard of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar?

Is he anything less?

Let Ramu preach in Pakistan!

That would be a greater service to the Nation.

I will admire him!

What is the difference from that Imam of Jama Masjid!


I'm not an authority on Sri Sri. I'm sure he's doing good work, but maybe his reach is not as wide.

Why Pakistan? There are plenty of people in India who can benefit by Baba Ramdev's Yoga and political awareness campaigns.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 05 Nov 2009 23:36

Abhi_G wrote:Was this Zakir Naik?

Non-muslim countries allow Islam in their midst because in the depths of their hearts non-muslims know that Islam is THE truth. Muslim countries do not allow other religions to flourish because Islam is THE truth and everything else is falsehood.


Yes Sir. The same visionary. And our Sri Sri Sri Ravishankar did not have a single logical point to make so that the great Zakir Naik is shown his place.

Pranav-ji

What Baba Ramdev teaches helps an individual at physical and intellectual level only. It doesn't matter what conspires at spiritual level at that point. Believe me, when a seeker reaches the required maturity to pursue spirituality, s/he wouldn't have any issue with saying Aum. Baba Ramdev is influencing tens of thousands of people to move from level 1 to level 3 (on a scale of 1-5). There may be other yoga teachers who help few tens of people to move from level 1 to level 4. I prefer Baba Ramdev anyday.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 05 Nov 2009 23:43

RamaY wrote:I am sure RayC-ji, you are doing whatever you can and I am sure you are influencing their lives in your own way. But the issue at hand is

A Ulema meeting invites a Hindu Yoga guru and Cabinet Minister of GOI to show its secular [sic] credentials. After they leave, the same ulema issues a fatwa against singing the national song. And we are discussing the intentions and motivations of of Baba Ramdev and PC. What we are missing is the devious nature of the Ulema. This is a staged event by the ulema to gain the legitimacy in the eyes of majority for the Ulema and then continue with their plans to subvert the very nationalism these distinguished guests represent.

Our jugalbandi started when you, instead of criticizing that Ulema alone for what is conspired, criticized the religious leaders of all faiths in India for their narrow-minded fear-mongering tactics. This is wrong. In addition to that, you started criticizing Baba Ramdev’s intentions and approach, who tried to extend his own area (yoga) by asking the muslim-attendees to pray their Ista-Devata instead of Om, which is against their religious sentiments.

Is it really narrow-mindedness to ask all Indians to sing Vandemataram irrespective of their religious believes? OR Is it true narrow-mindedness when one insists that one cannot pray their Ista Devata but say Om when they practice yoga?


Forget about being a Hindu or a Hindu icon, I will be damned if I went to an organisation that has father institutions against India like SIMI! But if I had political aspirations, I would! Did the RSS head Bhagwat or whatever is his name go there? One must stick to one’s principles!

The fatwa on Vande Matarm is stupid.

Md Arif by translating in Urdu for the illiterate Muslims has done a yeoman’s service to show it is NOT unIslamic! What more do you want?

If the fatwas were given behind the back of such illustrious leaders of the Hindu faith,what stops them from giving a rebuttal?

Have they given that?

Quit acting prim and smug.

Ramdev is a charlatan in my opinion. He is entering the political arena!

Like it or not, Om cannot be replaced with Allah when you do yogic breathing. Try it!

I sure would like to know your experience.

I tried it.

It did not work!

At least for me. You maybe more secular!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Abhi_G » 05 Nov 2009 23:44

RamaY-ji

Thanks. Please see how the contour of debate in this thread has veered off from the rabid ulemas to criticism and comparism between Hindu swamis. No wonder Islamists like Zakir Naik say that Hindus are not "sincere" about their religion and therefore, it is just a matter of time to eventual realization of THE TRUTH!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pranav » 05 Nov 2009 23:57

RayC wrote:Ramdev is a charlatan in my opinion. He is entering the political arena!


Looks like you have raised two issues - substituting something else for Om, and talking about politics.

IMO, if people who have mental blocks aginst saying Om, might nevertheless benefit by doing the exercises, it's correct to encourage them to do the exercises without the chants.

Who knows, they may later come to appreciate the subtle soothing effects of Om.

As regards politics, it's wrong to assume somebody is a charlatan merely because he talks about the burning socio-economic issues that society is facing.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 06 Nov 2009 00:00

If you say so RayC-ji :lol:

Let us leave this topic here. We will discuss again at another time and place. one step at a time.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Jarita » 06 Nov 2009 00:01

RayC wrote:Ramdev is a charlatan in my opinion. He is entering the political arena!

Like it or not, Om cannot be replaced with Allah when you do yogic breathing. Try it!




Yup. Sound is rooted in the principles of breath. The sound OM is for the objecive of breath control, expansion et al.
Infact yoga means union - with atman, with breath, with every dimension. The consequences of yoga are therefore haraam. Islam is dualistic (not dualistic on the continuum like madhavcharya etc) but Allah is a 60 cubits tall male entity in heaven. Realization that divine and one is the same is very haraam by that logic.
The goal of yoga is to eventually facilitate this realization

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Jarita » 06 Nov 2009 00:06

Pranav wrote:IMO, if people who have mental blocks aginst saying Om, might nevertheless benefit by doing the exercises, it's correct to encourage them to do the exercises without the chants.

Who knows, they may later come to appreciate the subtle soothing effects of Om.

As regards politics, it's wrong to assume somebody is a charlatan merely because he talks about the burning socio-economic issues that society is facing.



I disgree. All these systems will appropriate whatever they can from Bharatiya traditions while throwing everything else out of the window. They now have Muslim yoga in England and Christian Yoga in America.
If you want yoga, take it lock stock and barrel. Understand the meaning of the word and the significance of the asanas from a spiritual perspective. If one cannot respect the tradition and thought process underlying yoga then don't get other benefits from it.
Sick of the Swamis half baked approach to tradition. This watering down has never, ever, ever helped us. You can see that with the Yogananda ashrams in the US.
Duniya bahut kharaab hai

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 06 Nov 2009 00:12

Pranav wrote:
Looks like you have raised two issues - substituting something else for Om, and talking about politics.

IMO, if people who have mental blocks aginst saying Om, might nevertheless benefit by doing the exercises, it's correct to encourage them to do the exercises without the chants.

Who knows, they may later come to appreciate the subtle soothing effects of Om.

As regards politics, it's wrong to assume somebody is a charlatan merely because he talks about the burning socio-economic issues that society is facing.


I will say OM a thousand times if it gives me peace and my religious affiliation be damned.

My mental Peace in anyway is what is the end game! Religion be damned!

Religion is pure. Politics is dirty!

Anyone who mixes goodness of religion with politics to me is a charlatan.

Religion is beyond the worldly issues!

It brings peace and calm even under adverse conditions!

Please try the deep resonance of OM substituting with Allah or Jesus. Tell me of your experience.

I will change from saying OM.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby gandharva » 06 Nov 2009 00:20

Opportunistic Hindu gurus: The Sameness Myth took a quantum leap in the 1960s when many Hindu gurus arrived in America. They attracted huge followings and piled up vast donations by playing the sameness game to appeal to the pop culture at the expense of authenticity. They lowered the bar for Westerners to enter into pop Hinduism, but this also lowered the bar to their exit once the fad had died and once enough components from Hinduism had been successfully appropriated into Western systems. (See details.[3])


[3]Not all gurus slipped into this trap. Prabhupada, Swami Chinmayananda, Swami Dayananda Saraswati, and many others remained authentic. On the other hand, Self Realization Fellowship and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar are examples of those who are promoting genericized spirituality that plays to the new age market. Ramakrishna Mission and Chinmaya Mission are examples where the founders were authentic, but which subsequently diluted their authenticity by resorting to the sameness syndrome for the sake of PR, political correctness, and possibly out of fear of being different than the dominant culture. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi remained true to Vedas as being distinct, despite the fact that he lost the majority of his white followers to U-Turns once it became clear to them that his generic TM program was only an introduction to deeper Vedic teachings. Yogi Amrit Desai, who trained the largest number of white yoga teachers in the US over a period of 30 years, avoided dilution, but he was dismissed by his institution's trustees over alleged 'sexual misconduct', and the new Western owners have drifted away from Hinduism.

http://rajivmalhotra.com/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=33


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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 06 Nov 2009 00:25

RamaY,

Bharat Seva Ashram.

Unsung unheard!

And yet at the forefront!

None of this Ramdev pizazz!

What the big tamasha of running to a Muslim jamboree?

What great stuff has old Ramdev done?!

Do they come to Hindu jamborees?

And I am meaning the Deobandis!

We are kowtowing to these organisations that father and foster organisations as SIMI.

And we criticise Md Arif Khan for saying that it is NOT unIslamic to sing Vande Mataram!!


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