Strategic leadership for the future of India

D Roy
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby D Roy » 06 Nov 2009 11:59

There are different paths in tantra broadly divided into vamachara and dakshinachara, some even do what they call madhyamachara.

Most of our day to day practices in what we now call hinduism are tantric practices including temple worship, with the temple being laid out in the form of a yantra. Its just that tantra gets invariably identified with only vamachara and the tamasic path. but in reality all kinds of meditative techniques are actually part of tantra.

The type of yoga that is emphasized depends on the path of practice. there are of course several kinds of yantra that may be employed, though they may lead to the same thing. best example is of course the use of a different yantra for each of the dashamahavidya forms of Maa.

tibetan buddhism leans towards aghora/ vamachara.


As far as the strategic order is concerned, strictly speaking in the course of tantric practices you move from ritual to internalisation at one end and from form to emptiness on the other. Who evolves to what level when depends on the karma of the individual through past lives and the level to which the individual is able to resolve rnanubandhanas . ( karmic debts) .


The ability to control heart rates and block out pains are siddhis attained through sadhana. but in tantric terms they are incidental to evolution and not ends in themselves. This is exactly where the western mind falters . they think the attainment of certain "powers' is the goal of tantra. This is why I hate parapsychology. There is absolutely no need to scientifically verify whether levitation is possible or psychokinesis exists. Once again the refusal of our ancients to share just about any kind of knowledge comes to mind. In fact as Vivekananda used to say anybody too enamoured by siddhis gets saddled by them and this in fact comes in the way of further spiritual evolution. Maya is easy to fall prey to in the course of sadhana.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Jarita » 06 Nov 2009 20:25

This topic does not belong to this thread but mantra japa (verbal) is also an aspect in tantra. Not as effective as inner vaak but it is effective esp. in the expansion of the Maalini vs. contraction. We can discuss elswhere

Also Droy - I have never understood how our contemporary gurus keep condemning Maya. If all is shiva then how is maya separate. They contradict themselves. The siddhis come from Amba. To curse them is to curse Amba.

We should halt this discussion now given the moderators.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pulikeshi » 06 Nov 2009 22:53

RayC wrote:Religion and politics is a dangerous combination!


I have come across some whoppers on this forum, but it is hard to get better than this one!
The state needs to keep them separated or that is the wisdom we have at this time acquired.... but
Keep the fuel away from the engine, because if you put them together they can explode!
Time to take the pure fuel of Religions and make it run dirty engine called Politics!
:rotfl:

Perhaps, RayC should respectfully heed his own advice and stick to soldiering :mrgreen:
Yes, geopolitics will fall into the Indic types that squirm to bring Hindu political thought into consideration.
However, there are others opposing that game as well... thankfully it is a democracy which this forum is not!

PS: I hope we can all meditate on the fact that Indian nationalism is like muscle (there are different kinds) and together they solve a purpose. And micro breaks and tears heal to strengthen the overall. What Indian nationalism does not have is strong (back)bones.
Whereas countries like China, nationalism is a brittle bone - hard to reset if it breaks and if it shatters real hard may never heal. What it has is plenty of raw muscle, but that by itself is stilling on a brittle frame.
What is the point of one muscle group going on making fun of another - both are required.
Neither want to exercise and get stronger, but hey criticism is cheap (this note included!)

By the way, why are we discussing althu, palthu stuff in a thread devoted to thinking about strategic leadership -
the quacking is getting unbearable!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby brihaspati » 07 Nov 2009 04:10

We should take the discussion on Tantra, if felt to be necessary, in a relevant thread - on epics/kathas in GDF. I think this discussion is OT even if of interest to many. Please let us go back to more concrete and directly relevant ideas and observations.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Umrao Das » 07 Nov 2009 04:18

At last somebody has belled the cat!
Thank you Pulikeshi.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Prem » 07 Nov 2009 04:33

Was it Mahatma Gandhi who said those who say Religion and Politics be separate do not understand either of them ? Guru Gobind Singh ji said the same thing . We have Ramayan and Gita full of religion and politics and now compare the mess this separation has brought after 47. All that Indic is trampled over by PS crowds as well ideologies HQed out of India.
Last edited by Prem on 07 Nov 2009 05:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby brihaspati » 07 Nov 2009 04:58

The separation of religion and politics is a demand that is particularly placed whenever there is a chance of the non-Abrahamic gaining the upper hand. This question is not raised when something like the Ulema is allowed to issue fatwas and declare their ambitions to establish political Islam.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby svinayak » 07 Nov 2009 05:26

brihaspati wrote:The separation of religion and politics is a demand that is particularly placed whenever there is a chance of the non-Abrahamic gaining the upper hand. This question is not raised when something like the Ulema is allowed to issue fatwas and declare their ambitions to establish political Islam.

The secular Marxist psy ops is really brilliant and it never occurs that double stds are being pushed

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Jarita » 07 Nov 2009 05:33

brihaspati wrote:The separation of religion and politics is a demand that is particularly placed whenever there is a chance of the non-Abrahamic gaining the upper hand. This question is not raised when something like the Ulema is allowed to issue fatwas and declare their ambitions to establish political Islam.



Beautiful. Will be tweeted and used everywhere

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Umrao Das » 07 Nov 2009 06:37

Westmininister type democracy has roots in the "Shenanigans" Holy Father (un wedded) Popes medling the state affairs of England, Spain, France Germany... ( Henry VIII), hence the cry for divorce from Pope the holy father in state affairs.

Having done so now the Abrahamic religions call themselves Christain Democrats proudly while denouncing anything else as rightwing Hindu or Hindu majority Indian goverment... :roll:

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 07 Nov 2009 09:30

Pulikeshi wrote:
RayC wrote:
Religion and politics is a dangerous combination!


I have come across some whoppers on this forum, but it is hard to get better than this one!
The state needs to keep them separated or that is the wisdom we have at this time acquired.... but
Keep the fuel away from the engine, because if you put them together they can explode!
Time to take the pure fuel of Religions and make it run dirty engine called Politics!
:rotfl:

Perhaps, RayC should respectfully heed his own advice and stick to soldiering :mrgreen:
Yes, geopolitics will fall into the Indic types that squirm to bring Hindu political thought into consideration.
However, there are others opposing that game as well... thankfully it is a democracy which this forum is not!

PS: I hope we can all meditate on the fact that Indian nationalism is like muscle (there are different kinds) and together they solve a purpose. And micro breaks and tears heal to strengthen the overall. What Indian nationalism does not have is strong (back)bones.
Whereas countries like China, nationalism is a brittle bone - hard to reset if it breaks and if it shatters real hard may never heal. What it has is plenty of raw muscle, but that by itself is stilling on a brittle frame.
What is the point of one muscle group going on making fun of another - both are required.
Neither want to exercise and get stronger, but hey criticism is cheap (this note included!)

By the way, why are we discussing althu, palthu stuff in a thread devoted to thinking about strategic leadership -
the quacking is getting unbearable!


It is a matter of opinion.

Pakistan is an ideal example of the dangerous mix of religion and Statecraft. Now, Pakistan is exploding.

To take a leaf of your muscle and brittle bone allegory. China has not only muscle but also fine bone. That is why they show a high nationalism. One has to observe them on the Internet. That apart, the manner in which they tenaciously pushed through the Olympic Flame in spite of opposition in many countries, showcased the Olympics as also were the top medal winners does indicate the inherent strength of their nationalism. It is where there is religion at the forefront is where they are having problems – Tibet and Xinjiang. Hence, religion and Statecraft is indeed an explosive mix.

The head must rule supreme and not the heart!

That is the sum total of leadership. Tactical or strategic!

Therefore, one wonders who is having the last laugh! ;)

Strategic leadership is also an adjunct to soldiering. Forgive me for pointing this out to a learned soul as you! Strategic leadership is not evolved in a void.

The common usage of the term strategic is related to the concept of strategy—simply a plan of action for accomplishing a goal. One finds both broad and narrow senses of the adjective strategic. Narrowly, the term denotes operating directly against military or industrial installations of an enemy during the conduct of war with the intent of destroying his military potential. Today, strategic is used more often in its broader sense (e.g., strategic planning, decisions, bombing, and even leadership). Thus, we use it to relate something’s primary importance or its quintessential aspect—for instance, the most advantageous, complex, difficult, or potentially damaging challenge to a nation, organization, culture, people, place, or object. When we recognize and use strategic in this broad sense, we append such meanings as the most important long-range planning, the most complex and profound decisions, and the most advantageous effects from a bombing campaign—as well as leaders with the highest conceptual ability to make decisions.

As mentioned earlier, strategy is a plan whose aim is to link ends, ways, and means. The difficult part involves the thinking required to develop the plan based on uncertain, ambiguous, complex, or volatile knowledge, information, and data. Strategic leadership entails making decisions across different cultures, agencies, agendas, personalities, and desires. It requires the devising of plans that are feasible, desirable, and acceptable to one’s organization and partners—whether joint, inter¬agency, or multinational. Strategic leadership demands the ability to make sound, reasoned decisions—specifically, consequential decisions with grave implications. Since the aim of strategy is to link ends, ways, and means, the aim of strategic leadership is to determine the ends, choose the best ways, and apply the most effective means. The strategy is the plan; strategic leadership is the thinking and decision making required to develop and effect the plan. Skills for leading at the strategic level are more complex than those for leading at the tactical and operational levels, with skills blurring at the seams between those levels. In short, one may define strategic leadership as the ability of an experienced, senior leader who has the wisdom and vision to create and execute plans and make consequential decisions in the volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous strategic environment.

One has thus to first understand what is strategic leadership rather than meander into nooks and cranny and into the irrelevant.

Indian nationalism is indeed weak, as you so correctly opine. It is because of fractures in the India polity and erupting sub nationalism, apart from the religious schism in the social fabric, the latter instead of providing ‘body’ to nationalism is in actuality being given undue prominence and is but fracturing the nation. The latest being the fatwa on Vande Mataram!

I might add from an Indian example where religion and politics did not mix and thus did not become an explosive situation. The Golden Temple episode. Since the Army is apolitical and religion is not a major issue, Sikh officers and soldiers obeyed the order to take on the terrorists in the Golden Temple, knowing fully well that there would be damage to the Temple to some extent and it would hurt the Sikh psyche! It must have been heart wrenching for them, but they showed that they were made of sterner stuff! It is but a salute to the fact that religion is not mixed with one's duty and responsibility to the Nation! This is why the Army still continues to be the 'firefighting' organisation to keep the Nation together. They now want to deploy the Army against the Maoists, as if there is not enough of policemen or para military forces, whose primary job is internal security! Religion, national integrity and Statecraft does not mix! Or so my experience indicates. Ethos or being beyond religion, caste and community! It is a great experience and it is sad that you all have not experienced it!

During the Naxalite problem in Bengal, Bengali officers and men were to be watched! My CO had no qualms of showing me that letter! I had no qualms of being loyal to my Nation! That is nationalism if I may most politely inform. India comes first and then other issues. Indian Moslems also die for their nation in wars against their fellow religionist across the border. Please think of their loyalty. Please note we don't have Fort Hood massacres! The Army and the armed forces is what is True India! Proud of it!

My request, please don't use religion to divide us even further!

The future of this Nation depends on narrowing the schisms and that should be the political strategy that the leadership has to evolve.

We have to sink our differences, before the differences sink us!

It might be an aide mémoire that soldiers can think beyond soldiering since many a great world leader and statesman have had the proud privilege to wear the uniform of their Nation's armed forces!

If I may suggest with due regards to all, let us discuss leadership in the strategic concept and not boil everything down to the religious realm being the sole panacea to the issue of leadership of a Nation.

The point that this forum is not a democracy and that criticism is cheap is well taken. We are all governed (everyone) by those who pay for and own the Forum. Yet, there is some democracy - in that no one has coerced us to come to this forum and we are free to quit it without taking anyone's leave!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 07 Nov 2009 12:12

Acharya,

I do hope the cat has been belled and I wonder for For whom the bell tolls.
:mrgreen:

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 07 Nov 2009 13:25

brihaspati wrote:The separation of religion and politics is a demand that is particularly placed whenever there is a chance of the non-Abrahamic gaining the upper hand. This question is not raised when something like the Ulema is allowed to issue fatwas and declare their ambitions to establish political Islam.


To my mind, if separation of religion and the State is Abrahamic slyness, then why are we hesitating?

Call India a Hindu Republic!

Ulemas are wrong. India is secular!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Hari Seldon » 07 Nov 2009 13:47

Call India a Hindu Republic!


Now that is slyness!

Hindu Republic, eh? A contradiction in terms!

How about "Hindu-majority country" - with the Hindu majority character finding mention in the discourse of the state, eh?

Now Iraq figured out the crusaders were out to setup a new empire and had in its constitution this written down that the muslim-majority character of the country is constitutionally protected.

Whereas the Indics have been demographically swamped out and wiped out in area after area in history, asking that India's Hindu majority be considered worthy of mention is too much to ask for, am sure.

Shrill slyness, indeed!

I love my country!

India is secular because it is not Pakistan!

And it is not Pakistan largely because of its Indic ethos!

Thank you!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pranav » 07 Nov 2009 17:18

x-post from corruption thread:
Yeddyurappa sobs on TV : http://www.ptinews.com/news/366176_Yedd ... sobs-on-TV

In a system where it is routine for tickets to be auctioned to the highest bidder, is it surprising that the buyers try to maximize their returns? Why cry over spilt milk. The time for sobbing was when tickets were being auctioned.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 07 Nov 2009 20:05

Hari Seldon wrote:
Call India a Hindu Republic!


Now that is slyness!

Hindu Republic, eh? A contradiction in terms!

How about "Hindu-majority country" - with the Hindu majority character finding mention in the discourse of the state, eh?

Now Iraq figured out the crusaders were out to setup a new empire and had in its constitution this written down that the muslim-majority character of the country is constitutionally protected.

Whereas the Indics have been demographically swamped out and wiped out in area after area in history, asking that India's Hindu majority be considered worthy of mention is too much to ask for, am sure.

Shrill slyness, indeed!

I love my country!

India is secular because it is not Pakistan!

And it is not Pakistan largely because of its Indic ethos!

Thank you!


Hindu Republic is not sly statement if one can be honest with oneself and if one goes by the trend of the majority of posts on this thread. To my mind, it is a clear cut and a categorical statement and not having to be deft with the syntax to obfuscate the holy and high morality being espoused while at the same time not stating openly that the majority political and societal predominance is the sole ‘crusade’.

The very word Indic, instead of clearly stating Hindu, is a part of the double talk or shrill slyness (to use your charming phrase) that is so deftly being used as a subterfuge (again my apologies for it could be out of purely good and high moral intentions that I have failed to observe) ! As I see it, nothing stark has been categorically enunciated to indicate the subtle shade of difference. But then, we are a pontificating race!

Indeed India cannot be Pakistan, but is this Indic character that separates the wheat from the chaff? Or is it the Hindu ethos of tolerance and adjustment that makes the difference? I think it is the Hindu ethos. What is the call of the day is that history cannot be changed and so tearing the hair does not help. One only gets bald!

One must visit this Indic categorisation. What exactly is Indic? The dictionary states:

Indic [ˈɪndɪk]
adj
(Linguistics / Languages) denoting, belonging to, or relating to a branch of Indo-European consisting of the Indo-European languages of India, including Sanskrit, Hindi and Urdu, Punjabi, Gujerati, Bengali, and Sinhalese
n
(Linguistics / Languages) this group of languages Also Indo-Aryan
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
Here on this forum, to me it appears a political correct activity to slip in the Hindu concept of life under the Indic label. Nothing wrong to be upfront and state it as Hindu, if one asks me, for that would be an honest approach and not a clever sleight of hand! I find nothing embarrassing about Hinduism.

I have no fear that Hinduism can be wiped out as you have so described in your post. If they could not wipe it out so far, then they (whoever are the windmills that you tilt at) cannot wipe us out at all! I have confidence and I fear none! I have Faith and I do hope others share that Faith that India cannot be conquered in any way.

Iraq is not a secular country. One wonders where the Crusade is? We must not see demons under every Bush. It will make us paranoid and cloud clear thinking. To my mind, in geostrategic terms (which some here feel is beyond my pay grade) it is purely a geostrategic attempt at usurping natural resources and ensuring universal domination by cornering world's natural resources. It also has helped squeezing in on the erstwhile competitor for world dominance (USSR and now called Russia) and the latest upstart (China)! One must not miss the wood for the trees, if I may add, most humbly.

India, even today, is Hindu majority.

Therefore, what would be the change from what is existing now if it is not a Hindu Republic, but a Hindu majority Republic as you desire?

I daresay I don't love my country!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby brihaspati » 07 Nov 2009 20:07

No problem with Abrahamic slyness. Problem is about expectation that criticism of "mixing religion with politics" should be equally vicious when criticizing Abrahamic attempts at mixing and when there are non-Abrahamic attempts at mixing. There is is this deafening silence when the Ulema mix politics with religion from voices who are the keenest to bite upon the slightest signs of what they see as "Hindu" attempts at mixing. This stark discrimination in attitudes shows where the real agenda for such voices lie. That is all. Just lookat usual "culprits" - media channels which are stringent about nosing out "Hindu" attempts - absolute silence about how "fascism" is being introduced when the Ulema passed their fatwa.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 07 Nov 2009 20:20

brihaspati wrote:No problem with Abrahamic slyness. Problem is about expectation that criticism of "mixing religion with politics" should be equally vicious when criticizing Abrahamic attempts at mixing and when there are non-Abrahamic attempts at mixing. There is is this deafening silence when the Ulema mix politics with religion from voices who are the keenest to bite upon the slightest signs of what they see as "Hindu" attempts at mixing. This stark discrimination in attitudes shows where the real agenda for such voices lie. That is all. Just lookat usual "culprits" - media channels which are stringent about nosing out "Hindu" attempts - absolute silence about how "fascism" is being introduced when the Ulema passed their fatwa.


France is secular, though a majority follow what one terms as Abrahamic religions. None could have come down more heavily on religious identification than France.

Therefore, the fault lies within India and not in Abrahamic religions and crusades or tilting at windmills like Don Quixote!

In India indeed there is what is so charmingly called shrill slyness. I am not too sure about the Indic influences. If there is a deafening silence to the appeasement of minority desires, then one must use his democratic rights – vote out those who allow it.

If you can't, then it proves that the majority are not with you! So simple! That ideas expressed here on this forum to most Indians are antediluvian!

Why grouse and belly ache?

Change the country by spreading the message.

If the good men of Hindoosthan lack the spine, then why wail? Accept it!

Thus, the strategic leadership requires a relook beyond religion!

And let us go beyond religion and see what the strategy that is required or so I feel!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby svinayak » 07 Nov 2009 20:22

RayC wrote:Acharya,

I do hope the cat has been belled and I wonder for For whom the bell tolls.
:mrgreen:

I dont understand your comments.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 07 Nov 2009 20:26

Acharya wrote:
RayC wrote:Acharya,

I do hope the cat has been belled and I wonder for For whom the bell tolls.
:mrgreen:

I dont understand your comments.


Rather sad, actually!

A thousand pardons!

I am inhibited by my lack of command of the language to be expansive!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby svinayak » 07 Nov 2009 20:29

RayC wrote:
I am inhibited by my lack of command of the language to be expansive!

Did I reply to any of your post. I dont see the context.

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 07 Nov 2009 20:33

seek, and ye shall find
St Matthew
Chapter 7

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby SRoy » 07 Nov 2009 20:35

Acharya wrote:
RayC wrote:
I am inhibited by my lack of command of the language to be expansive!

Did I reply to any of your post. I dont see the context.

He mistakenly took you to be one of the forumite that said "belled the cat". Hence, the friendly fire was (mis)directed at you. :)

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby svinayak » 07 Nov 2009 20:39

Whatever

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Umrao Das » 07 Nov 2009 20:44

Matt is out dated

it is revised as

"seek , it Shall be done" (is the attitude for winners said the Lord)

The newer testament in town is


Image


This another cult religion that is still hot


Image

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Umrao Das » 07 Nov 2009 20:46

ray c sir always believes in fire at will, collateral is no deterrent to him, and is mostly unilateral in his response but thinks he is bi lateral :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 07 Nov 2009 20:51

Umrao Das wrote:ray c sir always believes in fire at will, collateral is no deterrent to him, and is mostly unilateral in his response but thinks he is bi lateral :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


I think it is bilateral since one could expect a response and if it does not come and instead goes off on a tangent, I do seek you forgiveness, but but that is not my fault.

In so far as Matthew Chapter & its new interpretation by you, I am glad there has emerged another Pope. Good and more confusion!

:rotfl:

I don't believe in fire at will. India is a poor country and we can't poof off ammunition as if there was no tomorrow. That is our teaching! Ek goli, ek dushman!

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 07 Nov 2009 20:54

Acharya wrote:
RayC wrote:
I am inhibited by my lack of command of the language to be expansive!

Did I reply to any of your post. I dont see the context.


My profound apologies.

I made a mistake!

It was Umrao Das who was the one who alluded to the tolling bell.

I believe he is an ancient poster on this forum with a new avatar. I respect him for that (his unstinting service to the forum). But is he as ancient as the Vatican?

Is there the black smoke or the white smoke over the Vatican chimney?

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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RayC » 07 Nov 2009 21:44

For whom the bell tolls a poem
(No man is an island) by John Donne

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less. (and India too!)
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

*****************

FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS
by Liana Margiva
Sunday, February 01, 2009
Rated "G" by the Author.

Share Print Save Become a Fan

Poetry by Liana Margiva

For whom the bell tolls late on Summer night
When all that has the soul are fast asleep?
Perhaps, it tolls for city’s peaceful sleep
About to be broken by gunfire.

The stars, where have they gone?
Who’s life they want to save?
Perhaps, those Ossetians about to be slaughtered?
For whom the bell tolls at this early hour
When Dawn has not yet broken?

It must be tolling for an old woman and her grandsons
Mixed with the earth by cold steel of machines
By soulless creatures driven.
And for the father gone insane from grief
At site of his beheaded daughters.

Or for the church burnt down with all souls
Who fled to safety of House of God that morning?
Where all the birds have gone?
They lost their voice in mourning.

The rain has failed to wash out all the blood
And gave up in despair.
And leaves failed to leave the trees that fall
‘Cause dead Ossetians took their space on earth.

Whilst vile chameleon was basking in the sun
Counting the dead, it murmured in content:
Love you denied me, called me evil creature
‘Cause you detested constant change of colors.

Alas, the people’s kind surpass I failed:
Like me they change their colors, but their skill
To hide the colors true is better far than mine!
One day they lick your feet, but once the back is turned,
A dagger leaves the sheath and stabs your trusting heart!

The mighty wind has quieted in terror,
But conquered he is not and not corrupted,
He won’t distort the truth to please the masters!
He’ll gather strength and tell the whole World
Of this horrendous massacre.

The Ocean wild will stir and raise huge waves
That’ll drown fraud by people perpetrated.
The great blue sky will summon mighty storms
That’ll throw bolts of lightning and the thunder
Will echo: yet again the fraud has triumphed!

So, for whom the bell tolls on this clear Summer day
When meadows are awash with flowers’ bloom?
It tolls for you who brought this misery,
It tolls for me as well, the one who’s destined to remember it.



Liana Margiva

Translated from Russian by Anatol Kardiukov

***************

The leadership should encompass their pains in their strategy!

It is beyond Religion. It is all about HUMANITY!

Arjun
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Arjun » 07 Nov 2009 22:10

RayC wrote:The very word Indic, instead of clearly stating Hindu, is a part of the double talk or shrill slyness (to use your charming phrase) that is so deftly being used as a subterfuge (again my apologies for it could be out of purely good and high moral intentions that I have failed to observe) ! As I see it, nothing stark has been categorically enunciated to indicate the subtle shade of difference. But then, we are a pontificating race!


Agreed, lets be done with all the double talk. 'Western values' == Christian values. Indic == Hindu.

Pranav
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Pranav » 07 Nov 2009 23:34

Pranav wrote:Yeddyurappa sobs on TV : http://www.ptinews.com/news/366176_Yedd ... sobs-on-TV

In a system where it is routine for tickets to be auctioned to the highest bidder, is it surprising that the buyers try to maximize their returns? Why cry over spilt milk. The time for sobbing was when tickets were being auctioned.


In this particular case, however, the dissidents seem to be particularly vicious characters, and are may be associated with the YSR group. So it would probably be better for the people if they don't come to power directly or indirectly.

Jarita
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Jarita » 08 Nov 2009 06:57

brihaspati wrote:No problem with Abrahamic slyness. Problem is about expectation that criticism of "mixing religion with politics" should be equally vicious when criticizing Abrahamic attempts at mixing and when there are non-Abrahamic attempts at mixing. There is is this deafening silence when the Ulema mix politics with religion from voices who are the keenest to bite upon the slightest signs of what they see as "Hindu" attempts at mixing. This stark discrimination in attitudes shows where the real agenda for such voices lie. That is all. Just lookat usual "culprits" - media channels which are stringent about nosing out "Hindu" attempts - absolute silence about how "fascism" is being introduced when the Ulema passed their fatwa.



Not a peep about the orthodoxy towards women from the vanguards of freedom and female liberty: Shabnam Hashmi, Shabana Azmi, SuAr, Brinda Karat, Renuka Choudhry and the rest of the big bindi crowd.
Javed Akhtar did speak up in kinda sorta support of the vande mataram fatwa by saying that it's not a big deal.

Rahul Mehta
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 08 Nov 2009 09:08

By and large, I see 2 types of activists --- Indicists and Macaulayputra (I am latter). The Maculayputra are of 3 types - Democracyists (like myself), secular leftists (like Arundhati Roy) and secular capitalists (like Yashwant Sinha, Jaswant Sinh etc).

IMO, Bharat Swabhiman Trust started by Ramdevji is one good place for Indicists to be or at least check out in detail. BST wants instruction of medium to be Sanskrit, wants ban on western medicines, wants a ban on Western fertilizers etc, all of which I disagree with. And yes, there are many things I agree with them --- like gradually banning electronics made in West and starting manufacturing in India, blocking MNCs from buy lands and owning shares of companies that own land, India should arm twist Mauritius to give secret account information etc etc. BST members appeared to be 100% concerned citizens with right or wrong but mo hidden agenda. I request all BRites to attend BST meetings in their neighborhood. Where are there meetings held? Well, you all have triple PhDs in googling, and so "google and you shall find".

===========

Arjun wrote:... lets be done with all the double talk. 'Western values' == Christian values. Indic == Hindu.


Not everything Western is Christian. eg West has strong emphasis on democratic values, and they dont come from Christianity. And not everything that is Indic is Hindu. Between 300 AD and till 1950 AD, India practiced oligarchy and anti-democratic regimes, and they weren't due to Hinduism.

.

Jarita
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Jarita » 08 Nov 2009 09:13

Rahul Mehta wrote:By and large, I see 2 types of activists --- Indicists and Macaulayputra (I am latter). The Maculayputra are of 3 types - Democracyists (like myself), secular leftists (like Arundhati Roy) and secular capitalists (like Yashwant Sinha, Jaswant Sinh etc).


.


Someone had a taxonomy on the Indian Elite and there were 4 classifications - Makalized was one of them. Check link

http://www.slideshare.net/vepa/indian-elite-research

Hari Seldon
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Hari Seldon » 08 Nov 2009 09:39

Agreed, lets be done with all the double talk. 'Western values' == Christian values. Indic == Hindu.


Baloney. Why is Indic == Hindu suddenly?

OK, let me first summarize my understanding of this divide.

The great semitic faiths at their core go by a 'one G_d, one book, one path and no other' orthodoxy. You're either with them or not.

The (greater) Eastern tradition is a polar opposite. It doesn't deny anyone heaven based on some sect membership. It certainly doesn't endorse, much less enforce a 'one G_d, one book, one path and no other' orthodoxy.

Hence, Indic refers to all the belief systems and ways of life that have evolved and have their roots and origins and primary influences in the eastern tradition - these could be sanatanam, Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism as well as several 100s of tribal (or what the macaulayoites call ;animist') traditions.

Conclusion:
The Hindu/Indic dichotomy is essentially a false choice - designed more to confuse than to clarify, to stymie than to help.

The honorable Brig has on more than one occasion casually dragged in Yinduism's fair name whenever BS happens in the outside world. I recall more than one occasion of my taking issue with his ''and they claim to be great Hindus!'' kind of slapstick shrillsness that is not only non sequitor to the discussion at hand but could very well be meant to inflame and divert rather than to clarify or understand. And why wear this secularism so loudly in every post attempting to by projection and negative association paint Indic nationalism and vision as devious or worse? Especially when secularism is not even in dispute?

B-ji, its an honor to read and know your thoughts, sir. When folk start following you across threads to poke and taunt, know you are hitting the right buttons somewhere.

JMTs and IMVVHOs.

Thank you!

Jai Hind!

I am Hindu and I am secular!

Don't paint Hindus or Indics in general who identify as Hindus or Indics in general as communal, fascistic, depraved or evil in general!

Thank you again!

Jai Hind!

RamaY
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby RamaY » 08 Nov 2009 09:46

The fence is eating up the crop.

In Civilizational thread RayC-ji passionately argued against calling our civilization Hindu-civilization or Bharatiya-civilization as such a thing would undermine the yet to be proven Islamic/Christian contributions. We all settled with the name “Indic” to accommodate him and like minded posters. Now he attributes unknown slyness to Hindu majority for calling our civilization Indic. My request is still open to present whatever civilizational contributions Islam or Christianity did to India that is Bharat.

In Kandhamal thread Sri RayC proclaimed that he doesn’t have any interest in learning about Hindu philosophy or reading any Hindu scriptures/epics. Yet he demonstrates unequivocal opinion about Om and yoga, just because he thought/felt so.

In this thread RayC-ji diverts the discussion to PC and Baba Ramdev using derogatory remarks while leaving (by diverting the topic) the Islamic Ulema who issued a Fatwa against singing Vandemataram. He (either directly or not by opposing other moderator opinion) warned/banned other posters for calling MMS names just because he is (non-elected) PM of India. Yet RayC calls names everyone who is in or who wants to enter politics.

I hope the moderator in RayC-ji sees this duplicity.

Muppalla
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Muppalla » 08 Nov 2009 09:56

RamaY wrote:My request is still open to present whatever civilizational contributions Islam or Christianity did to India that is Bharat.


On some day BR needs to discuss this aspect. May not be now. In the past we discussed about Hinduva, Hindu religion etc. and finally decided no more on religion. However, once in a while BR decides to discuss some difficult topics. We had series of Islamism but we never had a lengthy discussion on the contribution/destruction of India due to Christianity. I hope some day we discuss this atleast in the hidden forum.

svinayak
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby svinayak » 08 Nov 2009 09:59

RamaY
I will give you one hint. To keep the Indian institutions including the military from any tag of "communalization" or "majority" or "civilizational" there is forceful denying and falsifying anything to do with words such as "hindu", "indic" etc. This started with the generation which claims that constitution was recognized in 1970s. you should now be able to connect the dots.

Prem
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Prem » 08 Nov 2009 10:04

Ray Sir Ji has claimed Om as part of his heritage. Question come to mind is then why discard the very same civilizational heritage chain and adopt adoration for something alien. Om is very sacred for Hindu , the one who knows the secret of AUM is free from "Traigun". Om,Omkar, Onkar is very soul of Indic weather he or she is Snatani Hindu, Sikh, Budhist or Jain. There is no such thing as Semetic Om . You can say Hari Om ,Om Mani Padme hum or Ek Onkar ,never heard any one sayin Omallah or Christom.

Jarita
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Postby Jarita » 08 Nov 2009 10:19

Oh guys take a chill pill.
The mod has to do this lest this website gets a label. Plus it is a defense website.
I found an excellent (other) forum to vent and discuss these ultra sensitive subjects. We should not do that on this forum.


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