Remembering Indira

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16332
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: woh log gawad hai, unpad hai !
Contact:

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Rahul M » 03 Nov 2009 09:57

Khalistan movement had massive support in rural Punjab during one time. So in a sense the govt had to wage a war against the entire sikh community in rural punjab.

massive support does not mean total support or even majority support. even a small % of active participants would mean a considerable number in absolute terms.
let's not forget that even the blue star operation was led by a sikh and his force counted many sikh officers and soldiers, at both junior and middle ranks.
mismanaged and disastrous as it was to prove, the rationale behind engaging the terrorists were never questioned by these people.

Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2259
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Jarita » 03 Nov 2009 10:07

vera_k wrote:And she (and Congress) seem to have had an ongoing tussle with Sikhs since the Emergency. Wiki has this to say, although the cited source is not available online -

According to Amnesty International, 140,000 people had been arrested without trial during the twenty months of Indira Gandhi's Emergency. Of them, 40,000 had come from India's two percent Sikh minority



Indira Gandhis mistake was the typical myopia the congress has always shown and the consequences of that. SHe promoted Bhinderwale to get factions in Punjab and that problem went out of control (same way Congis are promoting Raj Thackery in Maha, though Rajt does not have 1/100 of the charisma Bhinderwale had). Bhinderwale had greater and greater ambitions which resulted in the issues during the emergency and after.

For all the pissiness shown by people regarding "Operation Bluestar" and how it violated the sanctity of Harmandar Sahib - As someone who has worshipped at Harmandar Sahib, I ask you where was the sancitity of the mandir when these terrorists were housed conducting anti national activity with Pakis in the golden temple, torturing and killing people in the temple, hoarding weapons and grenades and bringing women to golden temple. Yes, the english speaking media never spoke about this but there in enough literature in Punjabi that details exactly what the terrorists were doing in the Golden Temple.
Indira Gandhi used extreme means (blasting the library and destroying the architecture could have been avoided as it was with "Operation Black Thunder"). However, the sancity of the golden temple was destroyed by those anti nationals holed up in there first.
As far as post death riots, that is purely the congress's fault, and many of those murderers are still walking free. It however, had nothing to do with Indira Gandhi who was killed by HER OWN BODYGUARD.
She was a mixed bag but in hindsight I believe did more good to India than bad.

For Goga and co stop whiming. There are many of us Punjabis who are in the KPS Gill school. Anti nationals have to be dealt with a tough hand.

Raju

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Raju » 03 Nov 2009 10:39

Rahul M wrote:
Khalistan movement had massive support in rural Punjab during one time. So in a sense the govt had to wage a war against the entire sikh community in rural punjab.

massive support does not mean total support or even majority support. even a small % of active participants would mean a considerable number in absolute terms.
let's not forget that even the blue star operation was led by a sikh and his force counted many sikh officers and soldiers, at both junior and middle ranks.
mismanaged and disastrous as it was to prove, the rationale behind engaging the terrorists were never questioned by these people.


bhapa sikhs (urban sikhs) were ambivalent even in the worst of times (80's) but majority of rural and Jat sikhs supported the seccessionists otherwise where was the need for any large scale operation across all villages. Brar is not a practicing sikh since he doesn't even keep 5 kakkar.

samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby samuel » 03 Nov 2009 10:52

In fact, the equating of Sikhs with the Irish or the Iraqis is puzzling, not in the least because they as a group have had one of the largest participation in the armed forces. Indeed, the commander of the forces that took the Temple was Maj. Gen. Brar (though he doesn't really count it seems). 2LT Raina who jumped up to lead Lt. Col. Israr's advance was a Sikh. Four of his six commanders were Sikh. Even Lt. Gen. Shabeg Singh on the other side was PVSM. He was apparently discharged a day before his retirement. That is in itself an interesting story, starting with when he refused to arrest Jaya Prakash Narayan, who was becoming a thorn to IG, to the eventual incidents post the apparent altercation with Gen. Raina.
So there are layers that do not lend themselves simplistic or loose analogies. The depths to which Blue Star would hurt was completely misunderestimated. That's not the kind of thing one simply carries on from, even if that is supposed to be the ordained dhimmi response. Were there really no other options to deal with those holed in? The buck for all this stopped with IG, not with Gen. Vaidya. Her claim for "trusting her General" falls flat as does the fact that she regretted doing it. Small consolation that.

Indeed, she viciously eliminated her opponents. Cronyism and nepotism that took off during her reign have now come home to roost with the second generation of political stars. Even for her nationalism, I wonder how much of thumbing the west was really Soviet "friendship" talking through her. Could she really make something out of Svraj that our independence movement was dominated with? Ultimately, her legacy appears to be a story of myopic survival strategies, in as much as it is claimed to be brilliant all-original nationalism.

S

Raju

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Raju » 03 Nov 2009 10:58

>> not in the least because they as a group have had one of the largest participation in the armed forces.

Sikhs also served in the armies of the mughal and the British. Working for the army has been popular sikh profession predating the Indian Army.

derkonig
BRFite
Posts: 953
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 00:51
Location: Jeering sekular forces bhile Furiously malishing my mijjile @ Led Lips Mijjile Malish Palish Parloul

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby derkonig » 03 Nov 2009 10:59

samuel wrote:Ultimately, her legacy appears to be a story of myopic survival strategies, in as much as it is claimed to be brilliant all-original nationalism.


Very aptly put.

samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby samuel » 03 Nov 2009 11:25

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1809/18090740.htm
Not very subtly she was beginning to identify the normal exercise of democratic rights, when it challenged her unquestioned authority, as the pathway to political anarchy. Shortly after her brutal suppression of Bhindranwale's criminal insurgency in Punjab, she disregarded the counsel of her more seasoned advisers and plunged into a constitutional coup in Kashmir. And as if she did not have enough on her hands, she recklessly provoked the southern satrap N.T. Rama Rao into a confrontation that was to end in abject defeat for her. Despite the absence of Sanjay, the last four years of Indira Gandhi's life, in other words, were as erratic and authoritarian as anything he could have authored. With or without her younger son, Indira Gandhi by 1980 was set on a course that could only end in self-destruction.

Babu Bihari
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 35
Joined: 05 Sep 2009 00:33

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Babu Bihari » 03 Nov 2009 12:16

enqyoob wrote:The state of the Indian political establishment today cannot be blamed on IG. In retrospect, her time is the only time in the past few decades that Indians took the Constitution and the idea of nationhood seriously, because she has been the only truly nationalist leader so far.

Some describe her as being paranoid. Well, as the old saying goes:
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they ain't out to get you!

She was perfectly right to be insecure and to not trust most of those around her. In fact I would say that she had more faith in ABV than in her own sycophantic partymen, or her own family (e.g., Maneka). And in the end, the one act of faith that she resolutely stuck to, i.e., keeping the Sikh bodyguards on, keeping faith in the Constitution and its guarantees, caused her untimely demise. Can you imagine Putin keeping on Chechens or Ukrainians in his bodyguards? Or Thatcher having a couple of Irish Protestants guarding her? Or Blair a couple of Pakistani-British? Or Bush a couple of Iraqi Americans?
..........


enqyoob saar jee, bliss to revizit the claims on IG's adherence on constitution part above. I whole heartedly agree that she was a staunch nationalist, a great leader, but it is also true that during her tenure, sanctity of constitution was the last thing on her mind. In fact, constitution was mauled and raped for IG. She had scant regard for Judiciary, in her own words she wanted a "committed bureaucracy and judiciary".

Bliss to read the following from a column [for which I do not have the link now], which gives us a brief recap of how constitution was raped to save her from independent judiciary.

The vandalising of our Constitution began with the 38th Amendment, which barred judicial review of the Emergency proclamation and the Ordinances promulgated by the President or Governors. Then came the Constitution (39th Amendment) Act, the sole purpose of which was to pre-empt the Supreme Court, which was hearing Mrs Gandhi's election case. It prohibited the court from hearing election petitions against the Prime Minister and placed all laws pertaining to elections in the Ninth Schedule (to bar judicial review).

But these amendments were just for starters. In the days and months that followed, Parliament was consumed by just one activity -- making laws to save Mrs Gandhi, who had been found guilty of corrupt electoral practice by the Allahabad High Court. The 40th Amendment placed an anti-media law also in the Ninth Schedule to bar judicial review. The Constitution (41st Amendment) Bill sought to amend Article 361 to say that no criminal or civil proceedings "whatsoever" could lie in court against a person who is or has been the Prime Minister. This Bill was based on the premise that the Prime Minister was above the Constitution and the law.

Then came the Constitution (42nd Amendment) Act, which, among other things, clipped the wings of the judiciary and robbed Parliament of its authority and sanctity. It declared that henceforth any amendment to the Constitution cannot be questioned "in any court on any ground" and that amendments to the Fundamental Rights Chapter were beyond judicial review. It said that courts could not disqualify MPs who were found guilty of corrupt electoral practices. As if all this were not enough, the 42nd Amendment abolished the need for quorum in Parliament and State legislatures. Once this was done away with, it became technically possible for a single MP to frame laws for the entire country!

Finally, the most shocking and reprehensible provision in the 42nd Amendment was the power it vested in the President to amend the Constitution through an executive order. It said if there were any difficulties in giving effect to the Constitution as amended, the President might, by order, for up to two years, "adapt or modify the provision to remove the difficulty". Through this provision, Parliament had voluntarily passed on its exclusive power to amend the Constitution to the executive.

Working under the shadow of a dictatorship, Parliament adopted break-neck speed to amend the Constitution, especially when the amendment was meant to bail out the Prime Minister from the election malpractices case. The 39th Amendment will go down in history as the fastest constitutional amendment. It was introduced in the Lok Sabha on August 7, 1975, and passed that very day after a two hour "debate". It was passed in the Rajya Sabha the next day. On August 9, a Saturday, all State legislatures were summoned to ratify this amendment and on August 10, 1975, it received the President's assent.

The reason for this over-speeding was the Congress's desire to pre-empt the Supreme Court, which was to begin hearing Mrs Gandhi's appeal against the Allahabad High Court judgement on August 11, 1975. Taken together, these amendments robbed the Constitution of its soul and turned India into a dictatorship.


IG was Durga Mai, she came on Indian scene when she was needed most, but she mauled our highest institutions and constitution to suit her political agenda.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Sanku » 03 Nov 2009 12:56

enqyoob wrote:The state of the Indian political establishment today cannot be blamed on IG. In retrospect, her time is the only time in the past few decades that Indians took the Constitution and the idea of nationhood seriously, because she has been the only truly nationalist leader so far.


:eek: :shock:
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Yes, the entire spectrum of LBS, Kamaraj, Patel, Rajendra Prasad, Shyama Prasad Mukurjee, Ambedakar etc etc do not count.

And the person who subverted the constitution to what ever extent possible for her political ends, is a example of the only time when people respected the constitution.

Jai Ho.

derkonig
BRFite
Posts: 953
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 00:51
Location: Jeering sekular forces bhile Furiously malishing my mijjile @ Led Lips Mijjile Malish Palish Parloul

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby derkonig » 03 Nov 2009 12:59

One must also not forget the Mitrokhin archives when we discuss IG's so called nationalism or desh prem. Do remember that the whole IG govt. was a front for the FSU. Didn't the CPSU fund the Con-gress during elections as per the archives?

vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2903
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby vera_k » 03 Nov 2009 13:09

Jarita wrote:As far as post death riots, that is purely the congress's fault, and many of those murderers are still walking free. It however, had nothing to do with Indira Gandhi who was killed by HER OWN BODYGUARD.


Here's a conflicting view that surmises the perpetrators of 1984 were trained during the Emergency.

the authors could also have usefully looked backwards, to what happened during the Emergency in Delhi. Reading their book, I was struck by how many of the guilty men of 1984 began life as Sanjay Gandhi’s stooges. The Congressmen they name as either apathetically looking on or actively participating in the pogrom — such as Jagdish Tytler, Arjan Dass, and Kamal Nath — were brought into politics by the second son of Indira Gandhi. Could it be that the attacks on Muslims in old Delhi in 1976, the razing of their homes and the forcible sterilization of their men, were some sort of precursor to the events of November 1/2, 1984? It was during the Emergency that Congress goons first realized the power that comes from being above the law, the power that comes from having at one’s command a pliant and sycophantic police force. In 1984, as in 1976, this power was used by rowdies of the ruling party to intimidate and terrorize the minorities.

enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby enqyoob » 03 Nov 2009 22:06

Babu Bihari wrote:
enqyoob saar jee, bliss to revizit the claims on IG's adherence on constitution part above. I whole heartedly agree that she was a staunch nationalist, a great leader, but it is also true that during her tenure, sanctity of constitution was the last thing on her mind. In fact, constitution was mauled and raped for IG. She had scant regard for Judiciary, in her own words she wanted a "committed bureaucracy and judiciary".

Bliss to read the following from a column [for which I do not have the link now], which gives us a brief recap of how constitution was raped to save her from independent judiciary.

The vandalising of our Constitution began with the 38th Amendment, which barred judicial review of the Emergency proclamation and the Ordinances promulgated by the President or Governors. Then came the Constitution (39th Amendment) Act, the sole purpose of which was to pre-empt the Supreme Court, which was hearing Mrs Gandhi's election case. It prohibited the court from hearing election petitions against the Prime Minister and placed all laws pertaining to elections in the Ninth Schedule (to bar judicial review).

But these amendments were just for starters. In the days and months that followed, Parliament was consumed by just one activity -- making laws to save Mrs Gandhi, who had been found guilty of corrupt electoral practice by the Allahabad High Court. The 40th Amendment placed an anti-media law also in the Ninth Schedule to bar judicial review. The Constitution (41st Amendment) Bill sought to amend Article 361 to say that no criminal or civil proceedings "whatsoever" could lie in court against a person who is or has been the Prime Minister. This Bill was based on the premise that the Prime Minister was above the Constitution and the law.

Then came the Constitution (42nd Amendment) Act, which, among other things, clipped the wings of the judiciary and robbed Parliament of its authority and sanctity. It declared that henceforth any amendment to the Constitution cannot be questioned "in any court on any ground" and that amendments to the Fundamental Rights Chapter were beyond judicial review. It said that courts could not disqualify MPs who were found guilty of corrupt electoral practices. As if all this were not enough, the 42nd Amendment abolished the need for quorum in Parliament and State legislatures. Once this was done away with, it became technically possible for a single MP to frame laws for the entire country!

Finally, the most shocking and reprehensible provision in the 42nd Amendment was the power it vested in the President to amend the Constitution through an executive order. It said if there were any difficulties in giving effect to the Constitution as amended, the President might, by order, for up to two years, "adapt or modify the provision to remove the difficulty". Through this provision, Parliament had voluntarily passed on its exclusive power to amend the Constitution to the executive.

Working under the shadow of a dictatorship, Parliament adopted break-neck speed to amend the Constitution, especially when the amendment was meant to bail out the Prime Minister from the election malpractices case. The 39th Amendment will go down in history as the fastest constitutional amendment. It was introduced in the Lok Sabha on August 7, 1975, and passed that very day after a two hour "debate". It was passed in the Rajya Sabha the next day. On August 9, a Saturday, all State legislatures were summoned to ratify this amendment and on August 10, 1975, it received the President's assent.

The reason for this over-speeding was the Congress's desire to pre-empt the Supreme Court, which was to begin hearing Mrs Gandhi's appeal against the Allahabad High Court judgement on August 11, 1975. Taken together, these amendments robbed the Constitution of its soul and turned India into a dictatorship.


IG was Durga Mai, she came on Indian scene when she was needed most, but she mauled our highest institutions and constitution to suit her political agenda.


Ah! Babu-Bihari, thanks for that. Let me explain. What I said was two things:

1. It was during IG's time that Indians learned to take the Constitution and concept of nationhood seriously.

2. IG was the most nationalist leader that India has had to-date.

Now I'll only respond to the other post that sees so much to :rotfl: about in that with a "Glad to have helped make your dreary day brighter", because it is not reasonable to expect EVERYONE who browses the internet to have the attention span, honesty or intelligence to read and think. Good to see that I caused such merriment.

But let me get back to the very pertinent issues you have posted.

Item 1: It was during IG's time that Indians learned to take the Constitution SERIOUSLY. In fact it was the first time many had even heard of it. Previous and later netas simply IGNORED the fact there is such a thing. IG USED the Constitution (yes, sometimes against it) but at least in her hands, the Constitution was something to be read, understood, and serve as a template for ACTIVE leadership.

No question that some of her actions were to protect other of her actions and interests, but the point is that she ENACTED MEASURES.

Ultimately, and in fact within a very short time, these had to face the Indian voter, so I can dismiss with that one statement all the :(( of those who claim she was a dictator.

But what she did was to see that the GOI's hands were not tied, at a time of great urgency. You may not like it, I may not like it, but she acted, in a way that she saw necessary to do her job effectively.

The counter-argument to all those who scream at her manipulation of the Constitution, is that if she wanted to, and were so inclined, she could have declared herself RajMata-4-Life and that would have been that. She did nothing of the sort, and I believe that eventually, she died an unpretentious, hard-working Indian woman who worked until the day she died.

What has happened since? How much do Indians care about the Constitution today? They seem to see it as some ridiculous old notion that in no way should hinder their pursuit of self-interest through any means, fair or foul. Today's elections are mostly based on tribal or other parochial loyalties, and the concept of nationhood only comes out on Jan 26 and Aug. 15 or during Cricket matches.

2. That she is by far the most NATIONALIST leader India has had:
Comparisons with "Kamaraj" are, with all due respect, not even laughable. Any other descriptions would generate Letters to Mr. Seetal, so I will leave it at that.

This was one person who believed in India as a NATION, and who energized people in every part of the nation towards that concept. Others were mere managers, or people who thought India should ape the West or the East. IG was just INDIAN.

3. If you go back and examine each of those so-called attacks on the Constitution, you will find that most democracies have laws prohibiting vendettas against former Presidents, PMs, and against most govt officials, for actions conducted in the performance of their duties. See the BO administration's quandary about prosecuting former Bush Administration officials, for example.

India just didn't have those kinds of laws, and IG, with a large enough majority to push those sorts of laws through, tried to do those.

Ultimately, you have to consider that the Allahabad High Court's decision was overturned, so why is that writer whom you quoted, bringing up a decision that was proved WRONG as "evidence" of wrongdoing by the (obviously unfairly) accused? Am I to believe that someone who pulls that sort of filthy stunt is a respector of the Constitution or the Law? That they deserve my respect?

enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby enqyoob » 03 Nov 2009 22:12

And finally, consider the statistic that today India's Supreme Court is reported to have over 500,000 pending cases.

Clearly IG was the last person to have sent a wake-up call to Their Eminent Honners, who, incidentally, last I heard, were "ruling" that they themselves are above the law in regard to revealing wealth, paying taxes etc. etc.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Sanku » 03 Nov 2009 22:13

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?204064


After the Bangladesh triumph,Indira Gandhi,‘empress of India’,storms into power with a massive mandate. She is Durga,invincible. She hones her populist moves:having already nationalised banks,she abolishes privy purses in 1972,stops food imports and coins the slogan ‘Garibi Hatao’. She becomes increasingly autocratic and imperious,purging Congress of any possible dissenters. Sycophants surround her with Dev Kant Barooah declaring ‘Indira is India,India is Indira’. In 1974,the ‘peaceful’ nuclear explosion at Pokharan shocks the world but heightens nationalistic fer vour and pride. India gets closer to the Soviet Union through a 20-year friendship pact and is estranged from the Western Bloc. Ironically, her landslide victory in 1972 sets the clock ticking for her downfall.

‘Dilli ki rani dekho janta kiske saath hai’becomes the slogan around Jayaprakash Narayan. He emerges out of retirement as the staunch critic of autocracy and corruption and the fulcrum of the anti-Indira movement. He inspires the Nav Nirman student movement against Chimanbhai Patel,sets the basis for ‘total revolution’in Bihar. JP’s message of Gandhian socialism makes him a mass leader in the tradition of the Mahatma. George Fernandes leads a national railway strike which is crushed by the government through 20,000 arrests. Future leaders Laloo Prasad Yadav, Mulayam Singh Yadav are groomed in JP’s stables. At a rally in Patna,JP defies the police raj by fearlessly riding out to the spot in a jeep with only two companions. By his example, thousands begin to stream onto the streets. In the ensuing police lathicharge and tear-gassing, JP is injured but resolute. The Allahabad high court upholds the plea of former wrestler Raj Narain (right) accusing Indira Gandhi of electoral malpractices. Narain’s maverick style is responsible for Indira Gandhi’s disintegration—and also,later, of the Janata Party.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Sanku » 03 Nov 2009 22:14

enqyoob wrote:Clearly IG was the last person to have sent a wake-up call to Their Eminent Honners, who, incidentally, last I heard, were "ruling" that they themselves are above the law in regard to revealing wealth, paying taxes etc. etc.


Yes she made sure the eminent honors made sure the right rulings were given.

BTW Modi with his summer court wont count here will he? I am sure not.
Last edited by Sanku on 03 Nov 2009 22:20, edited 1 time in total.

surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1421
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby surinder » 03 Nov 2009 22:17

It is interesting that post-Independence India managed to create conditions & muster "courage" to blow up the Golden Temple, but could not take back a *SINGLE* temple destroyed by the Mussallmans?

Is it not a little bit ironic & funny that "Hindus" would destroy the most iconic structure of a religion that shed enormous amount of blood to protect Hinduism, but could not even lift a finger to take back a *SINGLE* ex-temple from those who sought to annihilate Hindiusm.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Sanku » 03 Nov 2009 22:24

surinder wrote:It is interesting that post-Independence India managed to create conditions & muster "courage" to blow up the Golden Temple, but could not take back a *SINGLE* temple destroyed by the Mussallmans?

Is it not a little bit ironic & funny that "Hindus" would destroy the most iconic structure of a religion that shed enormous amount of blood to protect Hinduism, but could not even lift a finger to take back a *SINGLE* ex-temple from those who sought to annihilate Hindiusm.


Indeed as isnt it equally ironic that the Panth which was formed for the liberty and justice and motherland actually fell into collaborating with its bitterest enemies -- funny outcomes of the nationalistic empress moves turned out in end.

OT>> but I believe the "Hindus" with help of some friends like Akalis have at least swept clean at least that one daag (of not lifting a finger to take back a ex temple)

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14220
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby svinayak » 03 Nov 2009 22:37

surinder wrote:It is interesting that post-Independence India managed to create conditions & muster "courage" to blow up the Golden Temple, but could not take back a *SINGLE* temple destroyed by the Mussallmans?

One was govt supported action and the other was actively discouraged and punished by the govt.The govt actually propagates falsehood about the Hindu religion and denies them legitimacy.

Is it not a little bit ironic & funny that "Hindus" would destroy the most iconic structure of a religion that shed enormous amount of blood to protect Hinduism, but could not even lift a finger to take back a *SINGLE* ex-temple from those who sought to annihilate Hindiusm.

Dont Equate the govt in power with "Hindus"
Suppression of the Hindu history from the time of "independence" and active state policy to discourage Hindu parties is a sign of colonization.
Last edited by svinayak on 03 Nov 2009 22:49, edited 1 time in total.

surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1421
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby surinder » 03 Nov 2009 22:44

Sanku wrote:Indeed as isnt it equally ironic that the Panth which was formed for the liberty and justice and motherland actually fell into collaborating with its bitterest enemies -- funny outcomes of the nationalistic empress moves turned out in end.


Fair enough. But I suppose the "Hindu" looks at all the groups of peoples who have hurt the motherland by "collaborating with its bitterest enemies", and decides that *this* particular collaboration deserves a full-fedged military response of attacking the holiest shrine, but not the others ones. Ridding India of 1/3 of its territory with British collaboration did not deserve to be responded in such a manner. The destruction of many 1000's of temples did not rise the level of such punishment either. The demand for secession of J&K with Paki & Western support did not merit any response of this magnitude.

I am afraid I do not understand this.

Umrao Das
BRFite
Posts: 332
Joined: 11 Jul 2008 20:26

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Umrao Das » 03 Nov 2009 22:45

Those who lived in those turbulent days can understand the complex situation that existed, than go conjecture and postulate what if scenarios. This has dawned on me very recently. I too used to think why Gandhiji did what he did (as he was a coward) or JLN who is egotistical lime light seeker etc.

I thought I would do year by year narration as a common man (teenager, high school student, then engineering student etc) so that we can then judge with limited bias.

She inherited a very complex India and she perofrmed far far superior to any other PM would have , especially having seen her nearest compitetor ABV. LKG was always laughing gas

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Sanku » 03 Nov 2009 22:51

surinder wrote:Fair enough. But I suppose the "Hindu" looks at all the groups of peoples who have hurt the motherland by "collaborating with its bitterest enemies", and decides that *this* particular collaboration deserves a full-fedged military response of attacking the holiest shrine, but not the others ones. Ridding India of 1/3 of its territory with British collaboration did not deserve to be responded in such a manner. The destruction of many 1000's of temples did not rise the level of such punishment either. The demand for secession of J&K with Paki & Western support did not merit any response of this magnitude.

I am afraid I do not understand this.


Do we not understand or we cant speak about it? Its the second one for me I think.

Meanwhile India is not Indira and certainly does not speak for "Hindus" she alone has to atone for her actions, of seeking power over the dead body of all things even Indian and Indic if need be and constitution was no big a deal for her.

So a Hindu party + Sikh combine (Akalis) humming along was anthamea for her, a Maharani Gayatri devi ruling Jaipur well with able support and love of her citizens could not be condoned by her.

She had to mold India in her mold, after all she was so strong and the only man in her cabinet that many still are falling over themselves to proclaim "India is Indira and Indira is India"

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Sanku » 03 Nov 2009 22:53

Umrao Das wrote:She inherited a very complex India and she perofrmed far far superior to any other PM would have , especially having seen her nearest compitetor ABV. LKG was always laughing gas


Shri Das, whether or not our views meet, let me say this now before we cross swords, I find your statements of
1) Fair historical accuracy
2) Balanced
3) Approaching the matter as one studies a human being and not a haigographical.

and I do actually agree with a lot of what you even as I disagree (primarily because our expectations from her were far higher -- and she could deliver -- god knows she could)

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5278
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Pranav » 03 Nov 2009 23:13

vera_k wrote:Here's a conflicting view that surmises the perpetrators of 1984 were trained during the Emergency.

the authors could also have usefully looked backwards, to what happened during the Emergency in Delhi. Reading their book, I was struck by how many of the guilty men of 1984 began life as Sanjay Gandhi’s stooges. The Congressmen they name as either apathetically looking on or actively participating in the pogrom — such as Jagdish Tytler, Arjan Dass, and Kamal Nath — were brought into politics by the second son of Indira Gandhi. Could it be that the attacks on Muslims in old Delhi in 1976, the razing of their homes and the forcible sterilization of their men, were some sort of precursor to the events of November 1/2, 1984? It was during the Emergency that Congress goons first realized the power that comes from being above the law, the power that comes from having at one’s command a pliant and sycophantic police force. In 1984, as in 1976, this power was used by rowdies of the ruling party to intimidate and terrorize the minorities.


Yes, Sanjay Gandhi's emergency boys were responsible for the 1984 slaughter.

Let us not forget that another of Sanjay Gandhi's boys is Navin Chawla. He gave orders for baking people alive in jail during the Emergency (http://www.dailypioneer.com/170874/The- ... -mask.html), and now he's sitting pretty as the Chief Election Comissioner.

As per a recent statement of his, he opposes having a paper trail for EVMs on the specious grounds that it will compromise voters' privacy.

So we're very much living with the pernicious effects on the Indira Gandhi era.

Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2259
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Jarita » 03 Nov 2009 23:23

surinder wrote:It is interesting that post-Independence India managed to create conditions & muster "courage" to blow up the Golden Temple, but could not take back a *SINGLE* temple destroyed by the Mussallmans?

Is it not a little bit ironic & funny that "Hindus" would destroy the most iconic structure of a religion that shed enormous amount of blood to protect Hinduism, but could not even lift a finger to take back a *SINGLE* ex-temple from those who sought to annihilate Hindiusm.



Wah Wah

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20792
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Prem » 03 Nov 2009 23:31

Surinder, Hindus are in the same boat as Sikhs< infact all Indics are in same boat. Brustish transferred the power to Congress Babus to continue their social eng policy and the bargain has been kept by both side. Secular India means supressed India =Indic. Most of our internal dissatisfaction and failures stem from this cause added with subsurvient Govt machinery taking orders from ruling DIEs.

samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby samuel » 03 Nov 2009 23:55

That really is the troubling thing. There are things in India "we can't speak of," but without dealing with them we are stuck. All smiles till the knives come out. We really do need to have a dialogue to square these things, otherwise we get these one-sided Indira was oh-so-great (not) slaps in each other's faces. I mean did we really think of all these sensitivities when we started this thread? I am not so sure...or may be the very purpose is to use it as a seed for dialogue, a strange way that would be. What would be so charming to recollect if you were a Sikh reading this forum, going back to Blue Star and wholesale killing (do you remember?), then reading what a great person she was (did you know someone who got sterilized, or picked up)? That too here on a military board, where the Sikhs form one of the most senior regiments and are probably one of the most decorated. And if the entire Indian Army was in British service, pray tell what's up with the Sikhs being in there? Why is this better than discussing "religion" or "EJ" or any of those other things that gets the PBUH brigade rattled? I mean seriously, she's dead. Gone to her maker. She did what she did, good bye.

enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby enqyoob » 04 Nov 2009 00:12

surinder wrote:It is interesting that post-Independence India managed to create conditions & muster "courage" to blow up the Golden Temple, but could not take back a *SINGLE* temple destroyed by the Mussallmans?

Is it not a little bit ironic & funny that "Hindus" would destroy the most iconic structure of a religion that shed enormous amount of blood to protect Hinduism, but could not even lift a finger to take back a *SINGLE* ex-temple from those who sought to annihilate Hindiusm.



I am so glad that you are interested in this puzzle. Let me try to help:
1. "Independent India managed to create conditions and muster courage to blow up the Golden Temple"

To get so many falsehoods into one sentence is indeed an impressive achievement.
a) "India" didn't "create conditions" to "blow up" anything. The temple in question was occupied by people who claimed to be followers of the religion, but abused the sanctuary as a terrorist hideout to store weapons, and to TORTURE POLICEMEN TO DEATH.

The COMMUNITY who owned that temple did nothing about it.

If I had had anything to say about it, the entire place would have been carpet-bombed. But that was NOT what "Independent India" did about it.

Indian Army soldiers took off their boots to go inside and attempt to force out the terrorists. They were machinegunned by the terrorists.

I would have pulled everyone back and brought in the Canberra bombers to turn it into a parking lot.

Instead, more soldiers went in, and killed the terrorists.

The temple was NOT blown up, at least not by 'Independent India'. Maybe by those who claimed to be devotees, but in fact were nothing but foreign-funded terrorists and bloody traitors who took refuge and assistance from the Pakistan Military.

For the other part, I don't see why it is the business of "Independent India" to "take back" properties owned by its citizens. Again, this reflects complete disrespect for the Constitution, but it's not surprising given where it comes from.

So your post is either written out of total ignorance, or total malice. Or both.

Samuel:
So that post is your solution as a deep, informative, introspective post that exemplifies how discussions should be conducted?

The Indian Army still has many Sikh soldiers and officers. They are loyal Indians who cannot see any merit in your attempts to associate them with the traitors of Khalistan. In fact it is a blood insult to the Sikh soldiers who were in fact the ones who went in and killed the terrorists and saved the temple from terrorist-traitor occupation. Why is that so hard for you to figure out, please?

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4761
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby SBajwa » 04 Nov 2009 00:21

by Raju
Sikhs also served in the armies of the mughal and the British. Working for the army has been popular sikh profession predating the Indian Army.


Sir!! Which Sikh served in the Army of Mughal? During the war of succession after Aurugnzeb had died., Guru Gobind Singh visited the Mughal emperor at Agra but I have never heard of any Sikh serving the armies of Mughal!! unless you are saying that when Delhi Mughal kings were paying tribute to the Sardar Baghel Singh Dhaliwal in 1760s., and Sikhs could not decide to seat somebody on the throne of Delhi., sikhs were technically serving Mughals.

Sikhs indeed served the British Army after their Khalsa kingdom was dissolved by the British army soldiers (Bengalis, Biharis, Poorbias) in 1849 to take revenge in 1857. Since then Sikhs have served

1. British Army.
2. INA (in fact was created by a Sikh before Netaji took over).
3. Ghadar Movement of 1910s.
4. Akalis using Mahatma Gandhi's methods of civil disobedience to get control of Gurdwaras. "Naram Dal"
5. Bhagat singh and his method of "Garam Dal"

....

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16332
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: woh log gawad hai, unpad hai !
Contact:

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Rahul M » 04 Nov 2009 00:34

I would have pulled everyone back and brought in the Canberra bombers to turn it into a parking lot.

if your hand develops an wound would your solution be to cut it off ? this sounds absurd on so many levels. sorry n^3 ji, this is not just some random building we are talking about but a very important part of India's heritage.

I'm not questioning the decision to go after the terrorists which doesn't need any more justification but even in a rhetorical purpose your comments sound too insensitive to me. even the most hardliners agree that the bluestar operation could have been better managed. the proof of that lies in the subsequent black thunder I and II operations.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16332
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: woh log gawad hai, unpad hai !
Contact:

Re: Remembering Indira

Postby Rahul M » 04 Nov 2009 01:34

Raju wrote:bhapa sikhs (urban sikhs) were ambivalent even in the worst of times (80's) but majority of rural and Jat sikhs supported the seccessionists otherwise where was the need for any large scale operation across all villages. Brar is not a practicing sikh since he doesn't even keep 5 kakkar.

lt. general brar is a practicing sikh, even though he doesn't carry the necessary items of a devout sikh.

Exactly 24 years after the infamous Operation Blue Star, which was aimed at removing Sikh militants from the Golden Temple, NewsX caught up with Lt General (retd) KS Brar, the man who led the operation.

NewsX: In hindsight, do you think Operation Blue Star was necessary?

General Brar: Absolutely! I don't think it could have been avoided. I think Mrs Gandhi tried her best to avoid Operation Blue Star. Till the last moment she was having secret parleys with the leadership of the Akali Dal, the SGPC (Shiromani Gurudwara Prabhandhak Committee) - the functionaries of the Golden Temple, but none of them had any authority left. The authority was now totally in the hands of Bhindranwale. Bhindranwale had made up his mind that there should be an independent Sikh state.

He wanted the Sikhs, as he said, to be freed from the shackles of Hindu slavery and from Hindu Raj. Pakistan took advantage of the situation. They trained the youth; they motivated them; they armed them; they provided good financial incentives to them. And they motivated them to fight for their own free land. And said you are second class citizens in your country. So the youth was all up in anger. Bhindranwale had motivated them also.

There was no land and order left in Punjab. There was no law and order left in Punjab. The civil administration had collapsed. The police had lost its authority. There was only one man calling the shots and that was Bhindranwale. In fact on the 26th of January 1984, Bhindranwale hoisted the flag of Khalistan inside the Golden Temple. But no one could do anything about it. He was initially living in Guru Ram Das Sarai and Guru Nanak Niwas but he decided to move into the Akal Takht. No one has ever gone and lived in the Akal Takht. But he did it.

And a stage had come when law and order situation was collapsing so fast that something had to be done. Pakistan was all ready and all set to recognize Khalistan the moment its declared. And there was a possibility of Khalistan being declared in a next few days.

And imagine if Khalistan was declared and Pakistan recognize them, they would repeat a Bangladesh on us, they would cross the borders, they would come to the assistance of this newly formed Khalistan, Punjab police would desert and join in with the Khalistan force, there would be a mass exodus of Hindus from Punjab towards Haryana and Delhi, mass exodus of Sikhs from Delhi and Haryana towards Punjab. There would be a 1947 type of riot situation. I think it was a task beyond the capability of the Army and something had to be done before it became too late.

NewsX: So what was the immediate provocation? Why June 3rd?

General Brar: You see, June 3rd unfortunately Longowal had ordered mass agitation in Punjab. And he had now passed orders that there will be no movement of food grains within Punjab. Emergency situation had been declared. Mrs Gandhi was still trying to make sure that the food grains are able to be moved in Punjab, but nothing was happening.

Therefore, right till, as long as possible, she kept on providing them with various compromises as far as the Anandpur Sahib resolution is concerned. She was prepared to give in to a number of their demands but they wanted everything and nothing short of everything. So, a stage came when she decided that when I have no other alternative left, I have to save the nation, I have to preserve the integrity of the Nation and she ordered Operation Blue Star.

NewsX: Can you give us an insight into the Operation? Was Mrs Indira Gandhi personally involved?

General Brar: Well, she gave her directions that she wanted militants to be removed from the Temple - Bhindranwale and the rest of the militants. She wanted sanctity to be restored inside the Gurudwara. She wanted the operation to be carried out as speedily as possible, so that there would be no repercussions. She wanted to use the minimum force; she didn't want any destruction of property or of religious sentiments. So she gave her instructions. General Vaidya, who was the chief, passed those instructions on down the line, and none of us had any doubts about those instructions.

NewsX: So how tough was the operation?

General Brar: We were told there will be about 500 people inside with a few double barrel guns and antiquated weapons. But what turned out when we went in, there were over 2000 sophisticated weapons inside, there were machine guns, there were rocket launchers, there were bazookas, there were stein guns, there were revolvers, there were automatic rifles, there were grenades; the whole Temple had been barricaded and there was not an opening anywhere inside that complex, which had not been barricaded and blocked.

I mean, it was like going into action with your hands tied behind your back- instructions that you cannot fire on Harmandir Sahib, instructions that you must make sure that all the women and children and innocent civilians are not harmed, yet they were all mixed up together. How do you separate them? We wanted to separate them, we wanted to find some solution by which we go to the battle only with the militants.

That's why we were appealing to the innocent people to come out but they didn't heed our advice. So, it was a damn tough Operation. When bullets were flying at our men from across Harmandir Sahib, from the opposite direction and our men were being killed like mosquitoes once they are sprayed upon, its damn tough to give orders that they will not return that fire.

NewsX: The Operation began on June 3rd and ended on June 6th. What was the sequence of events?

General Brar: No, June 3rd I wouldn't say the operation started. June 3rd we laid a cordon around the Golden Temple. There were just paramilitary forces and a little bit of army around there; there was a reconnaissance going on, there were plans being prepared. The actual Operation started only on the 5th of June- roundabout 10:30 at night when we actually entered the Golden Temple.

Before that ok in the morning, some of their observation towers, which were totally dominating the area, had to be removed because these people were on top of the observation towers and when our troops went in, they came under very heavy fire. So, we had to remove those lookouts with rocket launchers, knock them out, so that the observation that was provided to these people was not available. But the actual Operation started after 10:30 on the 5th of June and it ended before noon on the 6th of June.

NewsX: Ok. And is it true that you actually went inside the Golden Temple just one day before the Operation started, dressed up as a civilian?

General Brar: No, I didn't go inside. I was just outside the Golden Temple, trying to observe the routine of the militants there and trying to get the lay out.

NewsX: And General Shabeg was also there?

General Brar: Shabeg was there. Shabeg Singh was inside. And I knew Shabeg very well. And I knew what we were up against, he being the military commander of Bhindranwale. And I knew we have a tough fight during that night. It was not going to be cakewalk. And that's what it was.

NewsX: And he fought a war alongside you against Bangladesh?

General Brar: Yeah, in 1971. We went into Dhaka together.

NewsX: Why were the tanks brought in?

General Brar: No, no, we had no plans to bring the tanks in. We didn't think the Operation would take so long. We thought it will be all over very fast. But we were getting close to daylight. Akal Takht- our troops could not close in to the Akal Takht because it was so heavily fortified. And there was a very heavy volume of fire coming from Akal Takht. We tried everything possible, we tried lobbying stun grenades. These grenades give you a headache; they make you a little nauseatic and they sort of assist in blinding to some extent.

But there was no way those grenades could go in because the whole place was so barricaded, there were no open spaces where the grenades could go in. They were bouncing back onto the Parikrama and having an effect on my own troops. So that didn't succeed. We wanted the commandos to go in, swim across the sarovar if possible into Harmandir Sahib, but the moment they tried to get into the sarovar, they came under heavy fire. We tried to have commandos going to the Akal Takht in three or four different directions; again they came under heavy fire.

Now the fear was, come the daylight, the news will spread very fast throughout Punjab that the Golden Temple has been attacked and there will be thousands and thousands of Sikh converging onto the Golden Temple, which would be a very difficult situation for the Army, because then you couldn't turn and face those people also. So, it had to be finished fast. And we felt the only way is bring in a tank, use it xenon lamp, it's got a xenon lamp, where the filament of the xenon lamp throws a light on a particular area, which has a blinding effect, and at the same time it lights up that area, which would assist our troops in closing in to the Akal Takht and at the same time blinding them and making it possible not to see us. But these filaments were fusing every one minute.

One minute and a fuse would go off and we had to bring in another tank, the same thing happened. Eventually, we took an APC. The APC tried to move on Parikrama, it came under rocket launcher fire and it was destroyed. We had the casualties, people had to jump off the APC and move on foot. Then we use the second armory on the tank to fire to on to the top of the Akal Takht to frighten those people or to soften the defenses. But that didn't succeed.

As a last measure, when General Sunderji had to get the approval from Delhi, we were permitted to use our main guns. But there also, we tried as far as possible, to just use it just on the top portions of the Akal Takht, so that that would have an effect on the people to surrender and give up the fight. Otherwise, there was no intention of taking the tanks inside.

NewsX: Bhindranwale and his men- you said some 2000 men, were inside. Was their surrender ever an option? Did you try to make them surrender?

General Brar: Yeah! Even when the firing used to die down, when there used to be lull in the battle, on loudspeakers we would going on appealing to them that even now please surrender, we don't want to continue with this fight, we don't want more bloodshed, we have lost a lot of our human beings, you have lost a lot of your human beings, please surrender. But my Gosh, there was no question of their surrendering.

It's only sometime in the morning, when there was a mass exodus, people just started rushing out of the Akal Takht and Harmandir Sahib etc that we realized something had happened, why is this happening.

Then we guessed Bhindranwale must be dead. And once he's dead, the motivation with the rest of the people would have died down and they would have decided the best thing for us is to escape. So, they tried to escape. However, a group of people came out with a white flag and surrendered. So, some did surrender, some tried to escape. This is after Bhindranwale was dead.

NewsX: But then there were some rumors that Bhindranwale didn't die and was given a kind of safe passage to run into Pakistan?

General Brar: Yeah, yeah. There were rumors floated. But you know how rumors start. I was questioned by the Information and Broadcasting Minister HKL Bhagat. He said look, its appearing on Pakistan TV that Bhindranwale is there in Pakistan, he escaped that night. I said he is here, we have handed his body to his relatives. His followers have come and touched his feet, the police have identified him, the intelligence agencies have identified him, he has been cremated, so where's the question of his having escaped to Pakistan. He said, no, the news is he has escaped to Pakistan and he is going to be shown on Pakistan TV on the 30th of June. I said, then all I can say is you please watch the TV on 30th of June, because as far as I am concerned, he is no longer alive.

NewsX: You yourself are a Sikh. Did you have any inhibitions when you were carrying out the Operation?

General Brar: No! The moment you join the Army and you wear your uniform, and you sworn, you have taken the oath of allegiance, you have one duty to perform, i.e. to safeguard the national integrity of your country. Before the operation started that morning of 5th, I went around addressing the troops- all the battalions and I explained to them the reasons why we were going in. I tried to tell them that this was the last alternative we dint want to go in but we have to do so.

Otherwise we will see Khalistan being established and Punjab being severe from India like east India was severed from Pakistan. And I said if there's any one amongst you who doesn't want to go in, who feels so strongly about it, just step aside, and I assure you your commanding officer will take no action against you. The first battalion - no one, second battalion - no one, the third battalion- no one, the fourth battalion- one Sikh gentleman stood up. I said "yes son, you don't need to go in." He said, "Sir you got me wrong, my name is Second Lt. Jasbeer Raina, I want to be the first one to go in. I want to lead the attack. I want to get to that Akal Takht and get Bhindranwale on my own."

I said you are a brave man. I told his commanding officer let his platoon be the first one to go. So that night his platoon was the first one to enter the Golden Temple but they came under very serious, severe fire they had no cover, both his legs were blasted away, he was bleeding a lot, he was still crawling. Commanding Officer tried to stop him to evacuate him.

They told me that he is very badly wounded. I had an ambulance ready for him. He said he is refusing to come out, he's just crawling away. I said now forcibly lift him and bring him. Both his legs were amputated. I got him the Asoka Chakra, the highest award for gallantry. When he went to receive his award in Rashtrapati Bhavan, the President walked down and pins the Ashoka Chakra on his chest.

NewsX: Why you were chosen for the operation? Do you think it was because you are a Sikh?

General Brar: I don't think it would make a very good difference even if we didn't answer to this question you have asked. I wouldn't say that I was selected because I was the most competent fellow, no way! I was just like any other general but it so happened it came my way and that's it.

NewsX: How has your life changed after the Operation Blue Star?

General Brar: Well, life has not been very comfortable. When I was army commander in Calcutta, there were attempts on my life. I got a call last year from someone in America to say there's a website, Khalistan website, go onto it, www whatever it was and see what's there. I went on to that website and there was Indira Gandhi's picture there and mine and they said number one enemy of the Sikhs now is Lt. Gen Kuldip Singh Brar.

And they went on to say that we have eliminated Mrs. Gandhi, we have eliminated General Vaidysaand now we have to eliminate him and there have been seven assassination attempts on his life, they haven't succeeded but the next one will, and those who want to join in, please click here. So, I mean when you see these things, in front of your eyes, it disturbs you.

NewsX: Did you visit the Golden Temple after that?

General Brar: No! No. I don't think they will let me go there because I think it would be something. There will be too many people wanting to make sure I don't come out again.

NewsX: Do you want to go?

General Brar: I do not want to go. No! Why should I go there? I mean I will go to the gurudwara wherever I am on Baisakhi, on other days but why should I particularly want to go to the Golden Temple in Amritsar? I have no attachment to it. This was a task I carried out without any attachment and I don't want to go there and be reminded of those ugly days.

NewsX: David Van Praagh writes "Militarily successful, Operation Blue Star is considered to be a political disaster and an un-precedented act in modern Indian history." Do you think the Operation was successful?

General Brar: Of course it was. Whether it was a political mistake or not, it's a different matter because it's only those people who were in power who would be able to say what were the compulsions. They must have had some compulsions to order the operation. Now the operation was successful. Unfortunately there was loss of life.

NewsX: If we could turn the time back to 1984, would you still do what you did then?

General Brar: Yeah, yeah!

NewsX: Will you?

General Brar: I would try my best to infiltrate people. I would ask for more time and during that time I'd try to send people in as pilgrims and explain to them, what's happening inside was wrong and to give up the extremist and fundamentalist feelings that they have. But if everything else failed, I would have, I would find no other method of doing it. It was, I mean not a question of one man's plan. This plan was debated and General Sunderji must have come on a number of occasions and refined it every stage and found then there was no other alternative but to do it.

NewsX: My last question, what are your feelings about the Operation Blue Star?

General Brar: I am sad that it had to have happened. I wish it had never happened. But for it not to have happened there had to be a compromise between the government and the Akalis, between the government and the SGPC, between the government and the Sikh priests, there had to be a method to bring Bhindranwale onto the right path. Everything failed, as I told you Bada, Tohra, Longowal had no authority left in them.

They couldn't negotiate with the government any longer because the person who called the shots was Bhindranwale. We tried to avoid it as much as possible. It was not easy for me. But my forces, who went in with me, not one desertion - not one, because they saw things themselves. They saw what was happening; they saw what was inside the Golden Temple.

Not one deserted. My own guard, he is a Sikh guard. People say "no, no you can't have a Sikh guard as a defence commander." I say I can't do a thing like that. They come by turns. It's the turn of the Sikhs, they are there. I had Sikh battalions in the same stations as me. Not one of them pointed a weapon at me or ever deserted or ever spoke in a derogatory manner of what happened.


Return to “Strategic & Security Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest