Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Suraj
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Suraj » 24 Mar 2011 09:17

India's incremental annual $ GDP addition already exceeds TSP's total GDP. It'll soon exceed that of the rest of SAARC put together.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby vera_k » 24 Mar 2011 09:34

The link is broken right now, but earlier yesterday Maharashtra reported 2009-10 GSDP of ~US$200 billion. Keep checking this site for when the link comes back.

http://mahades.maharashtra.gov.in/

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby vina » 24 Mar 2011 09:54

Having said that, it will be churlish to deny the Left a substantial amount of credit for the Kerala Model...It was the first communist govt that started the high levels of public expenditure on health and education, which was higher than most states...Of course, the tradition and infrastruture of the old Malabar prinipalities and christian missionaires helped..


That is the kind of fiction writing propagated by Amartya Sen et al in search of a communist "success" , a "Cuba" if you will (high HDI in a poor country) in India.

Fact, is for people in the know (like part of my family) who hail from Travancore /Kochi etc, the roots of Kerala's HDI goes to the enlightened rule of the Maharajas and the Diwans in their employ (google famous/infamous CP Ramaswamy Iyer). Most of the enlightened princely states in the South (Mysore was another one), invested heavily in the health , education and well being of their citizens, including public welfare. For eg, Travancore had the famous "Ootuperai" (sort of like a soup kitchen) where you could get a meal free . Contrast the state of the regions that formerly comprised the princely states of Travancore and Kochi with Malabar in today's Kerala. Malabar was part of "British India" and lags behind in most indicators (though still better than other parts) when compared to other parts.

That head start in HDI continued right after independence. Better governed states like parts which became TN started catching up, the laggards of course are the places like UP, Bihar , MP and Bengal and many parts which suffered the worst depradations and loot in the medieval ages and even the 100 odd years of further British "improvement" and also loot (which went on simultaneously), the catch up post independence has been slow.

The biggest disappointment has been Bengal and in the 34 years of power, the CPI has been an abysmal failure in primary education and health, despite all their rhetoric. The scenes of people traveling in trains all the way from Kolkata and parts of Bihar to hospitals in Chennai, Katpadi, Banglore etc in mass scale for something as routine today as a coronary bypass is pitiable. Chalo, let go of surgical procedures. But basic bread and butter primary health centers with atleast midwives and paramedics and doctors within a 2 hr call ,with a well equipped ambulance that comes to your doorstep when called is absent . That kind of social infra which is top notch in TN (from what I have seen, I have visited a model PHC some 40 kms from Sivagangai (P.Chidambaram's constituency) in Ramnad dist , the poorest and most arid/rainfed area of TN.. that PHC opened my eyes, you get into a bus, that drops you off in a bus stand right in the middle of the town and you sit with dignity inside the bus mind you, not on the roof top, and that place had a school, a big PHC, telephone booths.. etc , all the basics in place) is the difference. In fact when you drive from Bangalore to Chennai, I have always invaraibly seen a local ambulance in the NH-4 from a village close by on the road as well, with cell phone number to call that painted on the side and back in big bold letters.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 10:03

indeed. apparently some of the enlightened and well ruled princely states like mysore, travancore, baroda, gwalior had it much better than those directly ruled by the british Raj and their handymen the zamindars. population pressure in british ruled gangetic belt also played its part.

net result is these areas started off in 1947 with a handicap. and decades of misrule by the cong in UP and bihar followed by laloo,mayawati and mulayam and the communists in WB have kept it so.

today WB is no match for TN in anything - roads, rail, 24 hr bus, large hospitals, colleges, shipping, urbanization, industrialization, ... there aint no sriperumbudur, trichy, salem, tirupur or coimbatore the beating heart of the revolution in WB, not even close. much of the trade through kolkata port would be indicative of the undeveloped hinterland - probably agricultural products, some textiles, tea....chennai would be shipping tons of high value goods like machinery, parts, cars, engines, medical kit, pharma, huge amt of textiles, plastics, chemicals...

its a no contest and the commies take pride in keeping it so, wasting generation after generation of human resources and forcing the best to flee to other states. my patch of the woods koramangala has a big bengali pop and so does CV raman nagar I think. delhi has a "mukherjee nagar" ... who are these people ? all brought up in WB but after college there was no hope of return...

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 24 Mar 2011 10:18

^^^I dont think there is any gainsaying that Bengal has fallen really behind in the sweepstakes...And the CPI(M) needs to take bulk of the blame for that..

However...
vina wrote:That head start in HDI continued right after independence. Better governed states like parts which became TN started catching up, the laggards of course are the places like UP, Bihar , MP and Bengal and many parts which suffered the worst depradations and loot in the medieval ages and even the 100 odd years of further British "improvement" and also loot (which went on simultaneously), the catch up post independence has been slow

This is not quite true - not for WB...WB at independence was the second most industrialised (or was it first?) state in the union...In fact Calcutta could credibly lay a rival claim to be the commercial capital..So as far as legacy advantage goes, WB was right up there with the likes of Madras Presidency and Kerala...

But really, even with "legacy" advantages, the HDI numbers, to the extent available, of Kerala were FAR below developed country averages in 1955 - see the link to the AEI study above...Therefore, credit needs to be given for what was done thereafter...It is in this aspect that the Left movement (in Kerala) needs to be given its due share of credit...And btw, Amrtya Sen is hardly an uncritical admirer, he has been scathing in his critique of Kerala's failures on the "income/GDP" metrics....

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby kmkraoind » 24 Mar 2011 11:48

DMK's free lunches turn costly

Outside the work perimeter, two middle aged men look on, worried. P. Murugan and K. Govindaraj are farmers from the same village who have cultivated black gram in their fields. The crop is ready for harvesting but they have been unable to get enough farm hands for the job. "We have been trying to wean away people from this pond digging to work for us, but they refuse," says Murugan. "Almost half our crop is lost as it is already over-ripe."


The freebies have made a deep impact on labour attitudes. "When you take care of almost all the basic needs of people, be it food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, children's education and even entertainment, there is little motivation for them to work hard," says a state bureaucrat, requesting anonymity. Together with the MGNREGS, the freebies have left the rural population too content to exert itself, he adds.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Mar 2011 12:03

While TN is relatively prosperous its is by no means an exemplary state.

The Northern belt from Coimbatore to Salem to Chennai including Thiruchi and Madurai are very high in HDI. The Extreme south from Tirunelveli to Nagercoil is very high in education and Business. The sections in between could rival Bihar or UP in certain parts.

WRT West Bengal the odd thing is that it does boast a literacy rate of 70%. This is not very different from TN or Maharashtra. Both about 75%. So I went drilling down for more data. And here it is.

Image

You can see the WB effect!

Kerala spends over twice what WB spends per capita on education. The odd thing is that as a proportion of its budget WB spends 18% on Education. Kerala spends 21%, Maharashtra 22%. It appears the failure to expand its economy has crushed the resources available.

And that's not all. Look at the drop out rates. At 8th Class TN's drop out rate is 23%. Kerala is 0%. :eek: WB is 63%. :cry: :evil: By class 10 it approaches 80%. Kerala is 7%.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby vina » 24 Mar 2011 12:03

somnath wrote:This is not quite true - not for WB...WB at independence was the second most industrialised (or was it first?) state in the union...In fact Calcutta could credibly lay a rival claim to be the commercial capital..So as far as legacy advantage goes, WB was right up there with the likes of Madras Presidency and Kerala...


Bengal or rather to be exact, Calcutta was industrialized which the commies systematically destroyed when they came to power! The economic base goes and all the rest of it collapses. The other major "Presidencies" were the Bombay and Madras presidencies . Kerala was a quaint backwater in terms of industry (despite heroic efforts to industrialize before independence). While Bengal deindustralized the other areas survived the depredations of the License-Permit-Raj and after the 1991 reforms when the dead hand and weight was lifted, blossomed .

In addition the relative lack of a business/entreprenurial culture in Bengal when compared to say a Gujarat or maybe even TN , Delhi/Punjab belt is a problem as well. The commie enforced deindustrialization and lack of a keen business and entrepreneurial instinct was a deadly combo.

But really, even with "legacy" advantages, the HDI numbers, to the extent available, of Kerala were FAR below developed country averages in 1955 - see the link to the AEI study above...Therefore, credit needs to be given for what was done thereafter...It is in this aspect that the Left movement (in Kerala) needs to be given its due share of credit.


You are missing the elephant in the room. The credit for that is something called "The Gelf" . Come late 50s/early 60s, the "Gelf" boom was in full swing in Kerala and the money order economy put money directly in the hands of the Mango Man in Kerala in large parts and guess where that went (other than the usual share of booze and waste which also happened in gargantuan scale), yep, health and education . Every sensible family did what their best instincts said .invest in kid's health and education. They did that and the overall HDI shot up to rival the best in the world. So if you really want to consider Kerala's case, you should consider the private transfers and not just the state GSDP.

And oh, the place I talked about with the Model PHC is this R.S Mangalam

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 24 Mar 2011 13:35

Theo_Fidel wrote:WRT West Bengal the odd thing is that it does boast a literacy rate of 70%. This is not very different from TN or Maharashtra. Both about 75%. So I went drilling down for more data. And here it is.

The issue with WB is really not about the absolute numbers, but relative ones...The issue is, at independence WB topped the charts in all economic and social indicators in India..But it slipped down rapidly from the '60s...And now it is no more than upper middle - which is the gripe.........With its legacy advantages, WB should have been a model state in more ways than one, but failed..

vina wrote:Bengal or rather to be exact, Calcutta was industrialized which the commies systematically destroyed when they came to power

Precisely...they frittered away the legacy advantage we had at independence...

vina wrote:The credit for that is something called "The Gelf" . Come late 50s/early 60s, the "Gelf" boom was in full swing in Kerala and the money order economy put money directly in the hands of the Mango Man in Kerala in large parts and guess where that went (other than the usual share of booze and waste which also happened in gargantuan scale), yep, health and education .

Remittance monies come back into the local economy with a multiplier effect - its like a cash transfer if you will..Hence, over time, it should reflect in people's per capita incomes...Obviously while they have been effective in certain ways, they havent jacked up local incomes by any great ways...Therefore it might have been one more contributing cause, it isnt a primary cause - the big elephant really is the level of public funding on education and agriculture (and communitarian funding on education)...

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Rahul M » 24 Mar 2011 13:48

Bade wrote:Can someone elaborate more on Theo's WB comment. I have noticed that too and wondered for 20 yrs with no insights. WB had almost uninterrupted Commie rule and outside of Kolkata things look very BIMARU unlike Kerala. I am referencing things I saw from the 80's and early 90's. OTOH, from what I recall Kerala has remained largely same from the 70's itself with even lesser commerce and industry activity compared to WB. Only the cities in Kerala look worse off now infra wise compared to two decades back. Suburban areas looks as prosperous as before. Keep in mind large scale Gulf money started flowing into Kerala only in the late 70's and commie rule in the 50's with significant interruptions unlike in WB.

partition, 1971 etc. if you get around 15 million destitute refugees landing on your doorstep in phases over a quarter century and get scant help from the central govt it is very difficult to recover from that. of course a commie govt in power after that upgrades 'difficult' to 'impossible'.
in fact the countryside of bengal never really got a chance to recover from the loving attention from the brits for daring to be a node for freedom struggle (the man-made 1943 bengal famine for example). kerala was lucky in the sense that it was spared the worst of the brits not being ruled by them directly.
WB had Raja Ram Mohun Roy, but was his work carried on for the next 150 years until Independence and beyond ?
most certainly, right up to the late 50's WB was probably the most socially progressive state in India. after that the refugee problem and stagnation of resource generation put an end to further improvements, while ROI marched on.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 24 Mar 2011 14:16

^^^The issue of "central neglect" is a favorite theme of successive bengal politicians..It has had an impact, especially the pernicious freight equalisisation scheme, but really thats no excuse for the lack of progress on HDI...What i amazing is that the Left did "operation barga" (the land reforms movement for the uninitiated) with the known marxst zeal, but didnt carry out the education/health movements that is so symptomatic of the communists world over!

One can understand (mind you understand, not rationalise) the lack of progress at the apex (industry, commerce, higher education), but not at the base level...

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Rahul M » 24 Mar 2011 14:21

no one says it is. but yes there was apathy during the refugee crises from central govt and that made it harder to manage. operation barga itself was not seen through to completion post 1982.
the pet theme of 'centre doesn't love me' of LF is a separate issue.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 24 Mar 2011 17:30

There is an interesting study of the IMF on the performance of Indian states..Its slightly dated - 2006 vintage, but has interesting insights..
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2006/wp06103.pdf

And surprisingly, WB comes out very well in many of the paramters...

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Mar 2011 20:43

Rahul,

It still doesn't explain the lack of interest in educating the people. I mean look at the chart. WB's population growth rate is 1.7%. That fence is keeping a LOT of people out.

Yet the drop out rate at Standard 5 is still 40%. In a commie territory? TN's is 0%.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Rahul M » 25 Mar 2011 00:17

theo sahab, all my points are valid upto 60's and 70's. beyond that it is just plain and simple poor governance. I don't believe in the 'commies support education' theory BS. some people who happen to be commies might but that doesn't make it a general trend of commies.
commies in WB have obliterated education system at all levels.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 25 Mar 2011 06:30

This is a good way for the main parties to function - BJP helps Congress introduce the Pension Bill..

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/bjp-s ... l/767161/0

But apparently the bill has nothing on FDI in pensions..

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/govt- ... t/767090/0

IMO, its not all that required to have FDI in pension..There isnt any rocket science to pension funds management that Indian fundhouses and insurance companies dont already have expertise of...But its good that finally there is going to be a full-fledged empowered regulator...

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Airavat » 26 Mar 2011 08:41

India Today carried out a study in 2009 using these parameters to rank states:
Prosperity and budget (percentage of population above poverty line, percentage of urban population, per capita capital expenditure, inflation, per capita debt, per capita GSDP, per capita revenue of SEB)
Law and order (number of policemen per lakh people, ratio of cases filed to pending cases in district and lower courts, share of murders, kidnappings, rapes and molestations to total cognisable crimes)
Health (infant mortality ratio or IMR, ratio of male IMR to female IMR, percentage of births assisted by trained personnel, percentage of homes having tap water as principal source of water, registered doctors per million population, sex ratio and per capita expenditure on health and family welfare by state Government)
Education (literacy rate, proportion of 10-plus children having completed primary education, ratio of boys to girls in elementary school, teacher-pupil ratio and expenditure on elementary education per 6 to 14-year-old)
Consumer market (households owning TVs, number of affluent households in urban and rural areas, per capita deposits in banks and per capita ownership of two-wheelers); agriculture (percentage of cultivated area under cash crops, agriculture GSDP per rural population, agriculture electricity consumption per rural population, foodgrain yield, loans extended to farmers and net irrigated area)
Infrastructure (percentage of homes with electricity, percentage of villages connected with pucca roads, per capita road length, bank branches, LPG connections, post offices and telephones)
Investment (per capita capital expenditure, commercial bank credit and gross capital formation in manufacturing, ratio of factories to number of disputes, ratio of industrial workers to urban 15-59 population, and percentage of sick SSIs).

On these parameters small states like Punjab, Himachal, Sikkim, Delhi, Goa, ranked on top.

India Today: best and worst states

Another interesting India Today study on 2004 state statistics compared with projected 2020 statistics.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 26 Mar 2011 12:11

Warren Buffet mentioned that India is no longer an "emerging" market...Funnily, he is the second prominent American to say that (Barack Obama mentioned something similar)...Bit of it is just being polite to hosts...

Ila Patnaik makes some useful points on how India has "emerged", at least on some parameters..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/weve- ... y/767529/0

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby svinayak » 26 Mar 2011 22:30

India already had arrived but the western media had created the BRIC to confuse and reduce the value of Indian raising. It is part of the image building using dis information and distraction. BRIC was coined and promoted in 2004.At the same time PRC revalued its economy with a higher base to show larger GDP.
But numbers cannot be shut down and it will come as the top four economies in the world.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby ashi » 27 Mar 2011 02:20

Acharya wrote:India already had arrived but the western media had created the BRIC to confuse and reduce the value of Indian raising. It is part of the image building using dis information and distraction. BRIC was coined and promoted in 2004.At the same time PRC revalued its economy with a higher base to show larger GDP.
But numbers cannot be shut down and it will come as the top four economies in the world.


Doesn't India have the smallest size of economy in terms of GDP among the BRIC? How's the western media creating BRIC to "reduce the value of Indian raising"?

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 27 Mar 2011 06:28

ashi wrote:
Acharya wrote:India already had arrived but the western media had created the BRIC to confuse and reduce the value of Indian raising. It is part of the image building using dis information and distraction. BRIC was coined and promoted in 2004.At the same time PRC revalued its economy with a higher base to show larger GDP.
But numbers cannot be shut down and it will come as the top four economies in the world.


Doesn't India have the smallest size of economy in terms of GDP among the BRIC? How's the western media creating BRIC to "reduce the value of Indian raising"?

Ashi-ji, conspiracy theorists find a conspiraccy in the most positive of developments! India, in PPP terms is second largest in the BRIC basket, in nominal USD terms, third (before Russia)...

Acharya-ji, on most macro parameters, India is formly a "developing" country, or emerging market as it is politely referred to these days...What Buffet and Ila Patnaik refer to is the fact that on certain institutional characteristics -market institutions, quality of regs, size of companies - India compares now with the developed world, not the typical developing world...Which is very true, but on macro paramters - PCI, HDI et al, India has a long way to go...

BTW, GS's BRIC concept did more for India's investor branding globally than anything else in the last 20 years - there is no conspiracy there :wink:

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Arjun » 27 Mar 2011 09:06

South India GDP

Timely report from Mckinsey, esp in light of the Chidamabaram Wikileak controversy. But statistics don't paint a pretty picture for the South economy - 22% of national GDP for the South is pretty poor !! What are the reasons behind this decline?

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby svinayak » 27 Mar 2011 10:35

ashi wrote:
Doesn't India have the smallest size of economy in terms of GDP among the BRIC? How's the western media creating BRIC to "reduce the value of Indian raising"?

India is the fastest growing market based economy in the world. Its "free" currency and rules/regulations and non centralized economy is first among the developing countries. India if it had the UNSC or P5+1 recognition would be at that league.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 27 Mar 2011 16:13

Acharya wrote: Its "free" currency and rules/regulations and non centralized economy is first among the developing countries.

Acharya-ji, you might want to explain what you mean by a "free" currency? How is the Indian ccy "freer" than other developing countries - across Asia especially? And yes, what is the definition of a "non centralised" economy? And how is the Indian economy the "first" among developing countries in that respect?

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 27 Mar 2011 17:08

An interview of Kaushik Basu - as expected, fantastic insights on almost all issues covered....

I liked the ones on inflation...
When you go in for financial inclusion, whereby you are encouraging people to put their money back into circulation—in a bank or in mutual funds—it’s a good thing, but it has the negative effect of bringing money into circulation. That creates inflationary pressures. Good things have side effects and financial inclusion has a side effect of inflationary pressure.

Also, black money being brought into circulation can create inflationary pressures, and you need to counteract that. One more observation: an economy cannot have more than one money-creating authority. So every country has its own single bank. But with globalisation, as the world is becoming a single economy, we are getting back into the predicament that we had gotten out of. This is not an argument against globalisation, but it is a potential tension point between different countries’ central banks. Inflation management today needs inter-country coordination of policy, inter-central banks coordination of policy and we try to do that already—at G20, for example.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby vina » 27 Mar 2011 18:34

Arjun wrote:South India GDP

Timely report from Mckinsey, esp in light of the Chidamabaram Wikileak controversy. But statistics don't paint a pretty picture for the South economy - 22% of national GDP for the South is pretty poor !! What are the reasons behind this decline?


I dont see any 22% at all in that article you linked. Pray, where did you get that figure from?

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Arjun » 27 Mar 2011 19:56

vina wrote:
Arjun wrote:South India GDP

Timely report from Mckinsey, esp in light of the Chidamabaram Wikileak controversy. But statistics don't paint a pretty picture for the South economy - 22% of national GDP for the South is pretty poor !! What are the reasons behind this decline?


I dont see any 22% at all in that article you linked. Pray, where did you get that figure from?

http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/report_south-indian-states-among-top-10-contributors-to-gdp_1524888

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Arjun » 27 Mar 2011 20:41

Marten wrote:Ministry of Statistics and Programme Implementation: GDP by State

Population of the states listed is around 18.5%. 22% GDP seems fine; 28% employment is pretty good.

Per my calculation from this site the 5 (AP, KA, Kerala, TN, Pondicherry) accounted for 21.81% of population in the last census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_union_territories_of_India_by_population

GDP is pretty much in line with population, when big parts of the north and east are supposedly underperforming. Either West is the one driving the GDP by far OR north and east are not as badly off as imagined.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby vera_k » 27 Mar 2011 21:51

^^

It's hard to figure out since the GDP calculation at state level is a mess. All data sources I've seen are mixing up GSDP and NSDP at current prices, GSDP calculated in 99-00 constant prices and GSDP calculated at 2004-05 prices.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Arjun » 27 Mar 2011 23:19

Maharashtra, in particular Mumbai - seems to be the primary culprit in skewing the ratios. The South does come out looking good based on '08 state GDP statistics-

An easy way to understand this is to split the country into 4 categories-

1) West India (Mah + Guj + Goa)- A massively overperforming region, primarily on account of Mumbai. The region accounts for 14.5% of India's population but 20.2% of GDP

2) Some high-performing North states (Punjab+Haryana+HP+Delhi+Chandigarh)- A small subset of the northern states that have high per capita incomes, but on a relatively small population base compared to either the West or South. These states account for 6.5% of the population and 10.9% of GDP.

3) The South (4 southern states + Pondicherry)- Population is 21.8% of total and GDP is around 23%.

4) The rest of India - all the remaining states, which have lower per capita incomes than the ones above. This category is 57% of India's population but only 46% of the GDP.

Mumbai's dominance is so overwhelming that excepting for Maharashtra no other large state ( not even Gujarat) has a per capita income above the national average !

However, one fact that does come out is that the South's ratio of GDP seems to have declined from about 24+% in 2000 to 22% in 2010.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Virupaksha » 27 Mar 2011 23:43

Also remember that there is a skew in favor of delhi and mumbai. For example the whole of Tata Steel, TCS will be reported as mumbai GDP only.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 28 Mar 2011 06:18

ravi_ku wrote:Also remember that there is a skew in favor of delhi and mumbai. For example the whole of Tata Steel, TCS will be reported as mumbai GDP only.

It doesnt get calculated that way - turnovers of individual companies do not get computed in the GDP of the state where they are headquartered..

In a typical Y=C+I+G scenario, the individual components are estimated..So, if Tata Steel makes an investment of 2 billion dollars in Jamshedpur to expand the plant capacity, it wil get into the GDP of Jharkhand (through the "I")..Of course, not all the "I" will be spent in the plant site itself, but that is a matter of detail..

But state GDP estimates are a bit of a mess - the latest numbers here..
http://www.rbi.org.in/scripts/Publicati ... x?id=12695

BTW, by "North", if one strips out Bihar and Eastern UP, the numbers would be pretty good - North after all has Punjab, Haryana, Delhi, HP - all "high income" states, especially Delhi (and NCR, which is a larger area encompassing UP and Haryana) would massively skew the numbers..

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 28 Mar 2011 07:05

Abhijit Bannerjee on cash transfers..

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a-pla ... s/768124/0

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 28 Mar 2011 08:57

Jay Panda on the new mining bill, espeically the 26% mining tax...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/the-l ... n/768143/0

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby krisna » 29 Mar 2011 01:02

Our own brfite rips into the so called philanthropists of the world- wonderful read.

Buffett should learn our ethos of giving- R Vaidya
The rootless wonders are agog with ecstasy that Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are visiting India. They will not only explore about investing in India but also urge the Indian business to allocate at least half of their wealth to charity and this year is called year of ‘giving’.
:rotfl:
It is important that both of them are educated about our system and ethos of giving which exist from ancient times and do not need lectures through business channels which live and even die for TRPs.
:mrgreen:
Buffett should know that the greatest hero of all times in India in our puranas is Karna who gave all and his name is interchangeably used for the art of giving in many Indian languages.
Ratan Tata may be shy to point out to Bill Gates that ‘the Tata founders bequeathed most of their individual wealth to many trusts they created for the greater good of India and its people’. So is the case with G D Birla and Jamnalal Bajaj. This may not be trumpeted by Kumara Mangalam Birla and Rahul Bajaj. As a perceptive blogger Sandeep Singh says that as early as 1895 Dayal Singh Majithia bequeathed away three million rupees for noble causes including new ventures by Indians. :D Actually Majithia was an early ‘venture capitalist’ in India even though not many know about him.
We also find that Swami Vivekananda could not have gone to USA but for local business people funding him and the weightlifters and wrestlers could not have won gold medals at the recent Commonwealth Games but for local traders financing their clubs in remote parts of Orissa and Manipur. Many may not have heard about Ekal Vidyalayas which are one-teacher schools functioning in remote parts of India, particularly in tribal areas. They are in as many as 35,000 villages, educating more than one million children. Take the other example of Satya Sai initiative to bring water to Rayalseema using private donations. The Ninth Plan document of Planning Commission says, “The Sathya Sai Charity has set an unparalleled initiative of implementing on their own without any budgetary support a massive water supply project with an expenditure of `3 billion to benefit 731 villages, etc.”
Later this project was extended to Chennai costing more than `600 crore. Ramakrishna Mission runs around 200 hospitals serving nearly one crore people annually mostly in rural areas. It also runs around 1,200 educational institutions serving more than 3.5 lakh students of which more than 1.25 lakh are in rural areas.
Nadars engaged in business in Tamil Nadu have funded hundreds of educational institutions and hospitals and so the Marwaris/Chettiars/Katchis/Bhoras all over India.
A lot of our education, healthcare, arts, literature and spirituality efforts/ventures have been fully financed by businessmen who are even shy to talk about it. Herein is the secret to the fundamental ethos of giving in India. It is done without advertisements and trumpets. Actually in our tradition the giver is reluctant to talk about it since it embarrasses the receiver. The fact that it could demean the receiver is reason enough for the giver to keep silent. Remember the way Nitish Kumar reacted when the donation from Gujarat for flood relief in Bihar was advertised? Nitish Kumar recalled our tradition of giving without revealing.
It is told in our ancient wisdom that one should give till the hand bleeds and one should not talk about it. The action will speak even centuries later. The upstarts of today write on every tubelight their names before donating it to a temple or call press conferences to declare their ‘intentions’. That is the US culture. Everything from lovemaking to charity should be advertised and shown on prime time television. Then only you prove that the spouses and receivers are happy :rotfl: :rotfl: .

how it all began and got prominence-
But why this sudden wallowing in self pity and whining about giving? It all started with the Indira Gandhi Prize being given to Bill Gates on July 25, 2009, and wherein the chairman of National Advisory Council Sonia Gandhi read a speech on the need for Indian businessmen to give for charity (like Bill Gates) :roll: and it was published in full by Wall Street Journal and a columnist in that paper pontificated the “rich in India to open their wallets”. Leaders and media in India who are clueless about Indian ethos are setting the Gates and Buffett’s to further pontificate to our business people.

It is interesting that Bill Gates who has operations in Cayman islands and Reno of Nevada to minimise or evade taxes to be paid to the United States government is enthusiastic about “Giving by India Inc”. :lol: Warren Buffett is planning to give his dollar assets to the Gates foundation which will reduce estate taxes in the future. :lol: Interestingly both of them are some of the few US business barons supporting estate taxes. It is not clear who are their dinner guests in India. If it is Forbes billionaires from India we hope Shahid Balwa of the Spectrum fame is not going to be there! :mrgreen:
Somebody should also tell Bill Gates and Warren Buffett that India Inc constitutes less than 15 per cent of our GDP and the real growth masters are small partnership and proprietorship firms which are deeply involved in giving. Actually India Inc in our economy is like an item number in a Bollywood movie. Good to talk about on TV but only has the glamour quotient. 8) Also can we suggest to Gates and Buffett to stop investing in firms in tax havens since that sucks away billions of dollars of money from countries like India. If they really want to help India then they should start a campaign to close down all these tax havens rather than having expensive company-paid dinners at five star hotels of our country urging Balwas to give.

great article.
nice to know about ourselves.
I did not know about our own contributions- shame on me.
Good that I learnt something-

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 29 Mar 2011 06:23

Krisna-ji,

The article is a mix-and-mash of truths, half-truths and legends to construct a "glorious India" picture and make snide ones on Buffet and Gates..

Ratan Tata may be shy to point out to Bill Gates that ‘the Tata founders bequeathed most of their individual wealth to many trusts they created for the greater good of India and its people’. So is the case with G D Birla and Jamnalal Bajaj. This may not be trumpeted by Kumara Mangalam Birla and Rahul Bajaj

Only half correct, in fact maybe quarter or less :( The point on the Tatas is substantially true, though most of the stakes in individual Tata companies are with Tata sons, which is not only a philanthrophic organisation (TCS, for example for a long time used to be a division of Tata Sons)...But for the Tatas, it is a well made point..For all the others, Bajaj, Birla et al - it is absolutely wrong to say that "most" of their wealth was bequeathed to charitable trusts..Quite to the contrary, most of the wealth was carved up between various brothers of the clan, with disputes over them spilling over well in to the 21st century..the corpuses managed by the Bajaj and Birla charitable trusts are miniscule compared to the total wealth of the families...

It is interesting that Bill Gates who has operations in Cayman islands and Reno of Nevada to minimise or evade taxes to be paid to the United States government is enthusiastic about “Giving by India Inc”.

This is a real clincher..I dont know whether Bill Gates has anything in Cayman, but Indian business worthies have not evaded taxes!!! :rotfl: the list of big tax evaders and "deliberate NPA creators" in India would be a roll call of honour of the business families...

Somebody should also tell Bill Gates and Warren Buffett that India Inc constitutes less than 15 per cent of our GDP and the real growth masters are small partnership and proprietorship firms which are deeply involved in giving.

Where did this "15%" number come from? The % estimated for the US is variously put between 50 and 80%...

The question is not of "small time charity" done by people like us...As anyone in the philanthrphy business will tell you, the biggest challenge in the business is the ability to scale up...What Buffet and Gates are doing is to bequeath a very large estate, consisting of their vast paper wealth to a foundation...For Gates, that will be ~50 billion dollars..the foundation will have access to the income streams from this - assuming a dividend yield of 1.5%, that is an annual cash flow of 750 million dollars...Now that is game breaking...Something similar has been done by Azim Premji, and by the Tatas...To compare that against sponsorhip of wrstlers to the Asian Games is stretching the point to a breaking point..

Lets not get into a mentality of denigrating the "other" in order to glorify ourselves - for an IIM-B prof, not expected...Not expected at all...

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby krisna » 29 Mar 2011 07:19

The article is a mix-and-mash of truths, half-truths and legends to construct a "glorious India" picture and make snide ones on Buffet and Gates..


Oh god - not again- pray tell me the mix-and-mash of truths, half-truths and legends to construct a "glorious India" picture-
For an unwashed abdul with limited knowledge- bliss to explain.
Only half correct, in fact maybe quarter or less The point on the Tatas is substantially true, though most of the stakes in individual Tata companies are with Tata sons, which is not only a philanthrophic organisation (TCS, for example for a long time used to be a division of Tata Sons)...But for the Tatas, it is a well made point..For all the others, Bajaj, Birla et al - it is absolutely wrong to say that "most" of their wealth was bequeathed to charitable trusts..Quite to the contrary, most of the wealth was carved up between various brothers of the clan, with disputes over them spilling over well in to the 21st century..the corpuses managed by the Bajaj and Birla charitable trusts are miniscule compared to the total wealth of the families...

surprising you use terms like-Only half correct, in fact maybe quarter or less- where is the source- :mrgreen:
you see demons when there are none.
The article says that
So is the case with G D Birla and Jamnalal Bajaj.
:rotfl: not the companies of today.
The article never commented about disputes etc and the corpuses-- which you talk about.
This is a real clincher..I dont know whether Bill Gates has anything in Cayman, but Indian business worthies have not evaded taxes!!! the list of big tax evaders and "deliberate NPA creators" in India would be a roll call of honour of the business families...

why are doing ==. not happy that Indians have something of their own.No need to teach sdres from the westerners :rotfl:
you are giving your opinion to the article. nothing to do with the article itself.

Where did this "15%" number come from? The % estimated for the US is variously put between 50 and 80%...

This number is for Indian GDP and not US GDP. :rotfl:
see the quote-
Somebody should also tell Bill Gates and Warren Buffett that India Inc constitutes less than 15 per cent of our GDP and the real growth masters are small partnership and proprietorship firms which are deeply involved in giving.


The question is not of "small time charity" done by people like us...As anyone in the philanthrphy business will tell you, the biggest challenge in the business is the ability to scale up...What Buffet and Gates are doing is to bequeath a very large estate, consisting of their vast paper wealth to a foundation...For Gates, that will be ~50 billion dollars..the foundation will have access to the income streams from this - assuming a dividend yield of 1.5%, that is an annual cash flow of 750 million dollars...Now that is game breaking...Something similar has been done by Azim Premji, and by the Tatas...To compare that against sponsorhip of wrstlers to the Asian Games is stretching the point to a breaking point..

This is your jaundiced view..The Indian way is not to hype things as the westerners do. I was pleasantly surprised when I searched google and found something to be true, hence appreciated the charity of the above mentioned individuals and their companies as I was not aware of them.
Here you get into a tizzy and get into semantics and argue on it.
Lets not get into a mentality of denigrating the "other" in order to glorify ourselves - for an IIM-B prof, not expected...Not expected at all...


We should learn from our own past, and move towards future.
It is a real shame that a mentality of denigrating the "their own past" in order to glorify others is prevalent among some.
The problem is
1) they always see a conspiracy if it does not fit their world view.
2) they dont give proper answers on why they feel it is so. But expect the same from others.
very sad indeed. :(

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby somnath » 29 Mar 2011 07:29

Krishna-ji,

Seems you completely missed the points..

krisna wrote:where is the source-

Three examples quoted - Tata, Bajaj, Birla - I spoke on all three and the degree of truths in each..

not the companies of today.
The article never commented about disputes etc and the corpuses-- which you talk about.

And I was referring to the same Birla and Bajaj..Its absolutely wrong to say that these families have beqathed all their wealth to charities..Far from the truth..

why are doing ==. not happy that Indians have something of their own

Not at all - just pointing out that snide ones at Bill Gates are equally applicable, in fact perhaps more so to our worthies..

This number is for Indian GDP and not US GDP

of course, which is why I wondered what is the source of that data...For the US, there are estimates done by variouos people, havent seen one for India..

Anyways - its not about the semantics...In case there is a good template, and Buffet and Gates present with one, there is nothing wrong in emulating that..

You might want to go through this study..

http://www.bain.com/bainweb/PDFs/cms/Pu ... Speech.pdf

Pertinent points:

1. US spends 2.2% of its GDP on philanthrophy, India 0.6%
2. Only 10% of India's "philanthrpohy" comes from individuals and corporations, for the US the number is 75%. this is the most impressive number - for India, most "charity" is done by the govt and overseas donor agencies..

People like the Tatas and Azim Premji need to be lauded, but its a bit silly denigrating the likes of Buffet and Gates (and American philanthrophy in general), given the numbers...
Last edited by somnath on 29 Mar 2011 07:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby krisna » 29 Mar 2011 07:52

Three examples quoted - Tata, Bajaj, Birla - I spoke on all three and the degree of truths in each..

:rotfl: how did you measure the degrees of truth in it.
And I was referring to the same Birla and Bajaj..Its absolutely wrong to say that these families have beqathed all their wealth to charities..Far from the truth..


The article says
‘the Tata founders bequeathed most of their individual wealth to many trusts they created for the greater good of India and its people’. So is the case with G D Birla and Jamnalal Bajaj.
. There is a difference between individula wealth and company wealth. Disclaimer- I am an unwashed abdul and not know much about economics. :(( :((
Not at all - just pointing out that snide ones at Bill Gates are equally applicable, in fact perhaps more so to our worthies..


MUTU :rotfl:
.For the US, there are estimates done by variouos people, havent seen one for India..

does not mean it does not exist. :wink:
Anyways - its not about the semantics...In case there is a good template, and Buffet and Gates present with one, there is nothing wrong in emulating that..

Being an sdre, we have a good template in Tata, Birla and Bajaj. what is the problem in emulating them.
For an abdul like me(and many others) good deeds done by our own people resonates strongly in me to do similar stuff rather than by an outsider.


I maintain that
We should learn from our own past, and move towards future.
It is a real shame that a mentality of denigrating the "their own past" in order to glorify others is prevalent among some.
The problem is
1) they always see a conspiracy if it does not fit their world view.
2) they dont give proper answers on why they feel it is so. But expect the same from others.
very sad indeed. :(

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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

Postby Arjun » 29 Mar 2011 09:09

somnath wrote:Pertinent points:

1. US spends 2.2% of its GDP on philanthrophy, India 0.6%
2. Only 10% of India's "philanthrpohy" comes from individuals and corporations, for the US the number is 75%. this is the most impressive number - for India, most "charity" is done by the govt and overseas donor agencies..

People like the Tatas and Azim Premji need to be lauded, but its a bit silly denigrating the likes of Buffet and Gates (and American philanthrophy in general), given the numbers...

Somnath,

The US has a very well-oiled 'charity' system and all charitable donations are tax-free. The system is so good that one is approached by various charities for funds, and they would provide you immediately with the relevant tax certificate for using at the time of filing returns. So the official documentation of charitable donations through the income-tax system is excellent. India does not have a comparable system - so an enormous percentage of the charitable giving is completely undocumented (every Indian probably donates every single day - but do they look at getting a tax certificate from these alms-seekers?).

Secondly, donations to churches and other religious donations are included as charity in the US. This accounts for more than a third of all charity in the US. As you probably are well aware - if we start including the money given to temples and other religious institutions in India, India might well be the leading country globally in charity ! The money given to temples in India is not only meant for the upkeep of the temples but also to support the numerous feeding and other charitable programs carried out by these temples.

Bill Gates and Buffet are certainly not to be denigrated given their huge achievements - but when they come in to India on a explicit mission of evangelizing US-style philanthropy, one can expect some push-back on the 'sermonizing' aspect.

Finally - in a country like India massive growth in the economy is likely to be the biggest game-changer for the masses. By being the drivers for the growth - Indian industrialists are actually playing a central role in the upliftment of the country in any case.

Having said all this, I am also in agreement that several aspects of US-style philanthropy are worthy of emulation.


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