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Indian Naval Discussion

BRF Oldie
Posts: 9151
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pankajs » 02 Oct 2013 19:08

Older article > 1 year

India takes giant leap in autonomous sea vehicle programme for security
As the Navy contemplates indigenously sourcing 10 such platforms primarily for intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR), mine mitigation and sensor deployment, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has come a long way in designing and building a batch of multiple AUVs to meet the Navy’s quality requirements.

The Visakhapatnam-based Naval Science and Technology Laboratory (NSTL), a DRDO firm, has fashioned a batch of AUVs from handheld slow-speed ones, to military-class, free-flooded platforms weighing 1.7 tonnes, with the capability to assist in the entire gamut of maritime security, straddling coastal and port defence to deep-sea operations.

“The 1.7-tonne reconfigurable platform, with an operational depth of 500 metres, can carry payloads of up to 500 kg to accomplish a plethora of operations such as surveillance, sensor deployment, and mine countermeasure, besides delivery of ammunition. It is slated to undergo a fresh set of sea trials in September.

Meanwhile, the NSTL’s ambitious programme ‘Autonomous Sea Vehicle’ (ASV), on the lines of the US Navy’s ‘Manta Unmanned Underwater Vehicle’ programme seeks to build much larger AUVs — behemoths weighing more than 12 tonnes — in course of time,” sources told The Hindu .

The under-trial AUV, built as a technology demonstrator, can act as a courier between submarines and surface vessels or controls. Vehicles of the class can also be used for target firing practice during naval exercises.

“In AUV development, predictability [in behaviour] and controllability are important. They will take men out of dangerous and monotonous underwater missions… Specifically, the 1.7-tonne AUV has a ‘flat fish’ hydrodynamic shape that makes it highly flexible and versatile. It can hover at zero-speed. Developed from a concept vehicle weighing 300 kg, the AUV has two interconnected cylindrical pressure hulls. Its multi-sensor intelligence robotic architecture provides for underwater monitoring and communication. Since the thrusters are inside the pressure hulls, vibration is next to nil.

Vehicle deployment is done by a ship-independent launch and recovery system developed by R&D Engineers, Pune, another DRDO lab,” said sources.

Part of a host of sub-systems and technologies being perfected for the tech-intensive programme is an AUV docking system for recharging batteries.

In-house technologies already available with the NSTL, such as Mission Computer System (MCS), Integrated Instrumentation and Recording System (IIRS), Power Management System (PMS), and electrical systems, were adopted for the development of the AUV. It is productionised by the Electronics Corporation of India Limited (ECIL).

Kersi D
Posts: 1388
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 02 Oct 2013 23:45

Philip wrote:The AIP model is a relevant and moot Q.There has been some details about two Russian routes for AIP.One a fuel cell version and the other a new kind of system which obviates the need for a conventional AIP system.It is universally acknowledged Brahmos is superior to any existing non-Russian anti-ship missile in current service. The USN even rates the Klub missile with its mach 3 terminal homing warhead as very difficult to defend against.The Brahmos 8 cell launcher has already been perfected for use on our Talwars and Rajputs.The same has been designed for Russian conventional subs like the Amur,also available in two sizes.What will be the killer factor of any Russian offer apart from BMos,will be its price and speed of construction.If the foll. report is accurate,then extended endurance will also not be a problem.

Russian subs aim for 'quiet spying'
New hydrogen-fueled propulsion system being installed

Published: 11/11/2012
Read more at ... hVtg3Tc.99

WASHINGTON – Using what can be termed a new, old submarine technology, the Russians have developed a hydrogen-fueled power plant for submarines that not only could be a substitute for nuclear-powered energy sources, but will give emerging countries such as Iran a submarine capable of remaining submerged for longer periods and extend its blue water capability, according to a report from Joseph Farah’s G2 Bulletin.

The new Russian submarine is called the B-90 Sarov, which is really a test sub using a hydrogen-fueled power plant which would be similar to German submarines U-212 and U-214.

The advantage to this technology is that some of Russia’s traditional diesel-electric subs use batteries to supply the electric motor. When the battery needs to be recharged, the submarine must surface and start diesel engines to recharge the batteries. This makes the submarine vulnerable. With hydrogen-fueled engines, the electric motors are supplied by hydrogen fuel cells.

This new Russian engine is what is referred to as “air-independent propulsion,” which increases the submarine’s submersible time, is quieter and could compete with the German diesel submarines, some of which Israel possesses.

Fuel cells are electrochemical conversion devices that combine hydrogen and oxygen to produce water, electricity and heat. They’re already in use in some automotive and space applications.

While slow, AIP submarines will be useful for their long-endurance and quietness. They will not become the primary form of propulsion to either diesel or nuclear power. Yet, they will be good for coastal defense and littoral regions, especially in smaller submarines.

Dr. Edward C. Whitman, science editor of Undersea Warfare Magazine, sees fuel cells possibly doubling or tripling their capabilities in the next few years, which will give greater tactical flexibility due to their small size and inherent stealth nature.

“The novel operational paradigms (that) AIP submarines introduce to undersea warfare will make these new boats a dangerous threat to submariners accustomed to nuclear – or conventionally diesel-powered adversaries,” Whitman said. “The submarine force needs to understand this threat – where it’s been, where it’s going, what it means, and how to counter it.”

Smaller navies are expected to stay with diesel-electric submarines for their coastal defenses and AIP technologies used to power those submarines will become more popular as their technologies improve.

Keep in touch with the most important breaking news stories about critical developments around the globe with Joseph Farah’s G2 Bulletin, the premium, online intelligence news source edited and published by the founder of WND.

Read more at ... hVtg3Tc.99 ... -deal.html

It is considered an outsider in the race to bag the Indian navy's contract for a new generation, long endurance conventional submarine but Russia maintains it is a strong contender as it will soon have the Air Independent Propulsion.
It was the lack of the AIP, which drastically increases the capability of a submarine to stay underwater by reducing dependence on compressed oxygen to burn fuel, that was seen as a disadvantage to Russia's participation in the navy's Project 75I to procure six new generation conventional submarines. Conventional submarines can stay underwater for a few days but those equipped with AIP can stay submerged for more than three weeks, giving the operator advantage in terms of stealthy operations and sneak attacks.

Russian designers said the system will be ready by 2016 and may even be fitted on Russian vessels by 2018. "The AIP is no longer a stumbling block to our participation in the P 75I," Andrey Baranov, deputy director general of the Rubin Design Bureau, said. "We will have a prototype of the system ready and in place by 2016."

Russia has offered to help the DRDO develop an indigenous version of the AIP, Baranov said and stressed that India was unlikely to find other partners who would share such critical technology.

"The main difference between our system and others in the world is that we do not store hydrogen onboard but generate it. We also use standard diesel that the submarine has," Rubin Design Bureau chief designer Igor Molchanov said. This, he said, makes the Russian AIP stealthier than the French and frees it of the need for shore-based hydrogen generating facilities which are required by the German system.

Both the French DCNS and the German HDW are strong competitors for the P 75I contract, which will be one of the largest global tenders in terms of money. There has, however, been delay in floating a tender though the decision to procure the submarines — to restore India's edge in underwater operations in the region —was taken years ago.

The correspondent is in Russia at the invitation of the United Shipbuilding Corp.

Russia says in race to bag mega sub deal - Indian Express

Here's a report on the underwater duel to take place, posted earlier by Austin from the "F" mag: ... evelopment

Deep Sea Quest
A case for Russia’s Amur submarine for Indian Navy’s P-75I programme

By Vladimir ‘Vovick’ Karnozov

Moscow: Three recent developments may help the Russians win the ongoing international competition for the Project 75(I): the Russian Navy’s commissioning of the Saint Petersburg, big domestic orders placed with the nation’s largest submarine builder — Sevmash and preparations for underwater trials of the BrahMos cruise missile.
In the middle of 2010, Indian defence minister A.K. Antony gave approval for the Project 75(I), calling for procurement of six conventional (non-nuclear) submarines for USD 10.7 billion. While two vessels are to be constructed in the collaborator country, the remaining four are scheduled to be built in India, under license.
According to the defence procurement practices, suitable companies from major exporting countries were invited to bid. They were forwarded Request for Information (RFI) in the second half of 2010 and the

request for proposal (RFP) is expected in the middle of 2012. If things move on time, the results are expected by 2014, and the delivery of the first vessel by 2016-2017.
Four contenders — Rosoboronexport of Russia, Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW) of Germany, DCNS of France and Navantia of Spain — are offering Amur 1650, Type 214, Scorpene and S-80 respectively. According to the RFI, circle of possible options was confined to those designs that were based on prototypes in existence.

The Russian Navy operates the Saint Petersburg, head vessel of the Project 677 design, codenamed Lada. The Amur 1650 is the latter’s export derivative. The German Navy operates Type 212 U-boats, from which the Type 214 was derived for export purposes. The French Navy operates only nuclear-powered submarines, but DCNS has already delivered a pair of Scorpene submarines to Chile, another pair to Malaysia and is supplying six to India under license-production contract with Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL). Navantia’s product does not meet the above requirement, but this may change soon as the Spanish Navy takes delivery of its first S-80, now under construction some time in 2013-2015.

The Indian Navy operates four Shishumar class submarines of the German Type 209 and 10 Russian-built Project 877EKM attributed to the Sindhughosh class. It use to have eight older Russian submarines, but the last of those, the INS Vagli, retired in 2011 after 36 years of service. Of the existing fleet, only four submarines are expected to remain operational in 2020 and none in 2025.

India has plans for 24 new non-nuclear submarines, of which, 12 shall be built locally and 12 by the collaborator. In 2003-2005, France won the order for six Scorpene class submarines worth over USD four billion. These are being constructed locally at MDL in Mumbai. Sadly, the construction process has been going slower than originally envisioned.

Meanwhile, India is also developing its nuclear submarine called Advanced Technology Vehicle, with the head vessel, Arihant nearly ready for sea trials. Besides, under a special deal between Kremlin and New Delhi, the Indian Navy is going to operate, under lease terms, a Project 971 submarine. The ship Nerpa, with tactical number K-152, is undergoing acceptance trials. Upon the completion of the trials, she will go south and serve there as INS Chakra. The Indian Navy may have as many as five or six nuclear-powered submarines in 2020. This would be a big development, but the need for modern conventional submarines will remain.


Germany, France and Russia have been competing for submarine orders round the world for decades. In this respect, each of the three has its strong and weak points. Broadly speaking, the West Europeans are considered better at air-independent propulsion (AIP) technologies in non-nuclear vessels. The Germans claim their Type 212 can move submerged at speed of three knots for nearly 14 days. This is made possible through the use of 300kWt AIP, based on fuel elements, and the use of stored oxygen.

The Russian submarines have better chances in a duel situation. In this respect, the current production Project 636 (06363) is pictured as prevailing over the contemporary German and French designs. The newer Amur 1650 is even better, due to more powerful acoustic system, lesser noise and lower displacement (1,765t against 2,350t).

As an added bonus, the Russian submarines can be equipped with Club-S missile system from Novator, an export version of the Caliber on the Russian Navy ships. The Club-S can fire three types of missiles, the anti-ship 3M-54, the anti-submarine 91R and the land-strike 3M-14. Today, such missilery is available only from Russia. In the course of modernisation and upgrade, Indian Navy’s Project 877EKM submarines have been obtaining the Club-S.

It is interesting to note that certain countries with reputation as capable submarine builders are not bidding in India, this time. At one point, there were speculations that the S-1000 was being offered. This is a Russian design made under contract by Fincantieri of Italy, as an inexpensive ‘no-frills’ submarine, with displacement of 1,000 tons, intended mostly for coastal protection. Respective development contract was signed in 2004 and fulfilled shortly afterwards. However, neither the S-1000, nor its completely Russian equivalent Amur 950, is on offer to India.

Swedish Kockums company is working on the A26 with 1,900 ton displacement, after building a series of three Gotland 1,500 ton submarines. The Gotland features Sterling-type AIP with underwater time up to 20 days. Australia operates six similar Collins class submarines produced in 1996-2003, while Singapore will soon be taking a pair of 1,500-tonne Archer submarines after they were rebuilt in Sweden. It is believed that after HDW took control over Kockums in 2004, it has the right to control the latter’s export operations. And, HDW chose to reply to the Indian RFI with the Type 214 offer.

Starting in 1998, HDW has been supplying Type 212 U-boats to German and Italian navies with eight deliveries, so far. The exportable Type 214 is larger, with displacement of 1,960t against 1,450t. So far, nine deliveries have been made to Portugal, Republic of Korea and Greece.

Early sale success was somewhat marred by media reports about numerous design deficiencies. The U-boats tended to be unstable when surfaced, especially in strong winds, their AIPs produced lower output and overheated. There were reports of water leaking into hydraulics, periscope vibrations, cavitation, which decreased the propeller’s efficiency, and certain onboard sensors worked unstably. In 2010-2011, the RoK Navy reportedly withdrew submarines from active service temporarily for repairs, as nearly 30 cases of loosing bolts were discovered on three vessels.
The fairly advanced and innovative design of Type 212/214 at the turn of the century, could not escape the inevitable teething problems. However, most of them are believed to have been cured by now, and the German product is widely considered front-runner in the ongoing completion.

The S-80 is the largest of the four competing designs with 2,400t displacement. Worldwide economic crisis and the problems in the Euro zone postponed completion of the first Spanish Navy vessel from 2011 to 2013, and then over to 2015. Herein lies its weakest point. The S-80 is a very advanced submarine featuring an all-new but untried AIP solution, with a bio-ethanol processor of hydrogen. The S-80 has a combat management system from Lockheed Martin. While, this insures high quality, such advanced systems of US origin come with restrictions on access to their codes, algorithms and software package.

France has already won Indian order for six Scorpene vessels. Increasing the numbers to 12 may be beneficial to local partner MDL. France does not operate Scorpene for itself, but Portugal and Malaysia operate them in a simplified 1,500-t version without AIP. KD Tunku Abdul Rahman and KD Tun Razak completed in 2009, for the Malaysian Navy, reportedly had problems when getting submerged. Contract worth over Euro two billion raised concerns in the country, with claims made against certain government members. Adding to DCNS’ troubles were charges of corruption.

DCNS has produced unique type of AIP called MESMA (Module d’Energie Sous-Marin Autonome). MESMA makes use of a steam turbine. Steam is generated by combustion of ethanol and oxygen stored under pressure of 60 atmospheres. There is only one submarine actually outfitted with MESMA, the Pakistan Navy’s third hull of the Agosta 90B class. The S137 Hanza differs from her sister ships in having displacement of 2,050 tons against 1,760, and comes equipped with a 200kW MESMA. Reportedly, she did not manage to develop the advertised four knots, her actual speed falling one knot behind the promise.

Naturally, use of compact steam turbines predetermines relatively low efficiency, in range of 15-26 per cent compared to 42-46 per cent for the German AIP
solution and 50-55 per cent for the Russian. The latter two centre on use of fuel cells and electrochemical generators and have power output in the region of 300-350 kW, just enough to make three-four knots under water.


BrahMos Aerospace under the leadership of Dr Sivathanu Pillai is a joint venture between India and Russia. The company develops the PJ-10 supersonic cruise missile able to strike at stationary and moving surface targets, such as warships. Based on the Russian systems known under names of the Onix, Alfa and Yakhont, the PJ-10 has a launch weight of four tons. If a decision to use the BrahMos missiles on the Project 75(I) ships is taken, the resulting submarine will appear to have a stretched hull, to house one more compartment amidships. This one will house a number of vertical launch containers. Models of the Amur 1650 exhibited at international show how this will be done.

There could be varied reasons to integrate BrahMos in the existing European hulls, but it seems to be a difficult proposition. For instance, the Germans keep reservoirs for hydrogen storage in the upper part of the hull just aft of the conning tower.
Besides, it is not about simply making a stretch to accommodate one more hull section — the effort also requires combat management and other systems to serve the missiles and insure their effective employment in wartime. Of the three European bidders, only France has experience of launching missiles vertically from under water depths.

The Russians can smoothly integrate the BrahMos on their ships, as they have a rich experience in vertical launches and, more importantly, invented the BrahMos itself as a derivative of the Onix system, in use on Russian submarines.
Russian weaknesses are chiefly aftermaths of the system crisis in their defence industrial complex that developed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Meeting offset requirements is particularly an issue. Negotiations on the matter of offset need active participation of Russia’s integrated structures such as the United Shipbuilding Corporation (OSK) and Russian Technologies State Corporation.

Options and Possibilities

India may choose to buy more submarines from abroad in addition to acquisitions under the Projects 75 and 75(I). This may involve more Project 971 ships and, perhaps, the Project 636 as well. The latter has been popular with China, which added six improved ships in 2004-2006 to a pair acquired in 1997-1998. Besides, China has commenced building copies known as the Yuan class. Algeria took two vessels in 2009 and Vietnam signed for six. Last year, the Admiralty Shipyards in St Petersburg laid down the Novorossiysk and the Rostov-upon-Don for the Russian Navy’s Black Sea Fleet. The local customer has ordered four more improved Project 636 (06363) vessels.

The Project 636 was on offer in India sometime ago. This time, however, the Russians responded to the new Indian RFI with the more modern Amur 1650. The decision was influenced by the Russian Navy commander’s order dated 6 May 2010, on inclusion of the St Petersburg, the head vessel of Project 677, into inventory of the Baltic Sea Fleet, supplemented by ritual hoisting of the Russian Navy flag.

Development of the Lada commenced in the middle of Eighties. It was meant to be a sort of interceptor, able to defeat US fast-attack submarines, operating off Russian coasts which were trying to detect and then shadow Russian strategic nuclear submarines on deterrent patrols. For this purpose, the Project 677 was made quieter and smaller than its predecessor Project 636, yet equipped with much more powerful acoustic sensors.

At the turn of the century, the Admiralty Shipyards laid down two series hulls, the Kronshtadt and the Sevastopol for the Russian Navy, and a third for export. In November, Rubin chief engineer Igor Vilnit told the media: “Construction of these vessels for the navy goes on in accordance with respective Russian government orders. Meantime, the head vessel, the St Petersburg, is undergoing modernisation and overhauling work in preparations of her operational trials in northern waters, according to the plans of the Russian defence ministry and the navy.”
The Admiralty Shipyards reports that the series hulls are 40 per cent and 10 per cent complete respectively, while the export hull is ready for outfitting with systems. This creates good foundations for fulfilling would-be foreign orders, should overseas customers buy the Amur 1650.

n 2011, the Sevmash company (also referred to as SMP) declared its intent to built diesel-electric submarines along with the Admiralty Shipyards. Sevmash specialises in nuclear-powered submarines, with 128 units having been built in Severodvinsk so far, following commissioning of the K-3 in 1958. The company says that, without slowing down construction of nuclear-powered submarines for the Russian Navy, it can produce at least one diesel-electric submarine for export customers annually.

This statement comes along with another one: Sevmash and its patron OSK are talking to the Russian defence ministry on construction of three to four improved Project 636 submarines for the Russian Navy. Initially, the customer wanted to take six units from the Admiralty Shipyards, but latter was booked to capacity with previous orders, including that from the Vietnamese Navy. The builder is moving out of St Petersburg city to a new site on the island of Kotlin.

The importance of Sevmash is that, it adds considerably to the Russian export capabilities, especially in terms of production quality, and fulfilling industrial offset requirements. With workforce of 27,000, it is not only the largest shipbuilder in Russia, but also the best equipped and financially stable.

In November 2011, the Russian defence ministry awarded OSK and Sevmash orders for construction of four Project 955A Borey-A strategic nuclear submarines, in addition to three Project 955 Boreys, already built in Severodvinsk. The customer had ordered five Project 885M Yasen-M nuclear fast-attack submarines, in addition to the head vessel, now under sea trials. The exact sum of these contracts has not been made public but it is known that the Alexander Nevsky, a second Borey-class vessel, was build under contract worth Rouble 23 billion, which equates to USD 0.75 billion.

Lada Goes Through its Paces

Five years of the St Petersburg’s operational trials have highlighted issues that need to be resolved before the Project 677 goes into full scale production. It is a standard Russian practice that head vessel of a brand-new type goes through vigorous testing before permission is given for full scale production. For instance, a previous generation Russian design had a 4-year operational trails period on two ships during which the navy made nearly 30 major and half-a-thousand minor claims, and these were subsequently addressed and resolved by the industry before launching the type into quantity production.

Since entering service, St Petersburg sailed Baltic waters regularly every year, for trials and working out war tactics. Work on preparations of improved design for the Russian Navy is proceeding well, in view of the completion date of 2013.
In relation to the Project 75(I) competition, AIP is the hottest issue. By the time the Indian tender committee comes to the selection process of the most suitable supplier, work on shaping Amur 1650’s AIP would be complete. Due to huge investments in new technologies in the Soviet times, the Russian scientists have amassed large experience in fuel cells, and have tried them on submarines and spacecraft, and more recently, on unmanned air vehicles.

The Amur 1650 is offered with AIP that employs fuel cells and reforming of diesel fuel for hydrogen by means of electro chemical generator. This solution permits to escape the need of storing hydrogen onboard submarines, as the Germans do, and rather generate it, as necessary. This eases issues with coastal infrastructure and crew safety.

Experimental unit is under bench trials, and is available for inspection by Indian specialists. Next step in the programme is construction of AIP full-scale prototype. This work is being done by Rubin under the company’s initiative, in reply to requests of potential foreign customers.

It is interesting to notice that unlike certain Europeans, the Russian Navy is not interested in AIP. As a result, no R&D work is being pursued in relation to Project 677. The Russian thinking is that underwater time can better be enlarged by increased capacity of accumulator batteries. The classic acid batteries are giving way to newer ion-lithium. As of now, the St Petersburg is equipped with a classic battery, but in future, it will be replaced by ion-lithium, when latter gets available. It is expected that the Amur-1650 with ion-lithium batteries can get a two fold increase in underwater time – from 9 days currently up to 16, which is comparable to the current levels of German U-boats with AIP. What may happen is that Indian specialists working on the RFP to the Project 75(I) would finally drop their early requirement for AIP and rather specify underwater time and other parameters of autonomous operations.

Duel Situation

Another example illustrating difference in Russian and European approaches is a duel scenario. Starting from the Project 641B, the Soviet (and then Russian) thinking was focussed on lowering acoustic fields so that diesel-electric submarines could be effectively employed on defence of naval bases and coastal waters against US fast-attack submarines, seeking to shadow Russian strategic nuclear submarines. The Soviet Union invested heavily in powerful acoustic sensors that would enable its submarines to detect enemy ships at greater distances, and allow for timely execution of evasive manoeuvres or first-see-first-strike sort of action.

Acoustic signature can be decreased by means of employing electrical motors on permanent magnets. The Russians and the Germans went that way, brining to life, motors like Siemens Permasyn on Type 212/214, a unitary engine for ‘creeping’ towards target, economic cruise and full speed. This has been a new direction in conventional submarine development, which met numerous difficulties. Higher-than-advertised noised levels were reported for RoK and Helenic navy vessels. In turn, the Russians managed to achieve noise levels, but still worked on their SED-1 motor, trying to make it deliver the full advertised power. During sea trials of St Petersburg, underwater speed tended to increase, but it is still some two-three knots below specification.

The Project 677 features state-of-the-art Lira acoustic detection system from Elektropribor company, complete with huge quasi-conformal antennae. As a result, the Saint Petersburg fared better in simulated duels with previous-generation submarines. The Lira has demonstrated stable work in Baltic waters but still needs checking in deeper ocean waters. Following completion of the Saint Petersburg modernisation and repairs, the ship will go to the Arctic for testing purposes in 2012.

During public discussions on future of the Russian Naval forces in the time when the Russian Navy was choosing between the improved Project 636 and Project 677, to equip the Black Sea Fleet, lots of information became available on results of Saint Petersburg testing. This included making public certain facts about her teething problems such as that with SED-1. Bits of that information have been skilfully used by interested parties in a campaign against the newer Russian project, seemingly in an effort to decrease its chances in the global marketplace. Competition in the Project 75(I) tender is expected to be hot, and in many ways, decisive of the future of Russian non-nuclear submarines.

(The writer is a Russian journalist based in Moscow)

While quietness and AIP endurance are moot points reg. the Amur,in terms of firepower they have no equal,as the sub can carry Brahmos,Kulb variants as well as Shkval suepr cavitating torpedoes.If fitted with the advanced sonars mentioned,they could even give N-subs a hard time in littoral ops.

Let us compare how many submarines are in actual service : Amur xyzw, HDW Typw 209/212/214/216, Kilo 677, Kilo 636, DCNS Scorpene etc. Also let us see how many AIP systems are operating.

Russians have been talking about a AIP system "almost ready" for almost a decade. Perhaps they just want some Indian moolah to complete the project


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arijitkm » 03 Oct 2013 09:10

Govt drags feet on anti-submarine chopper deal by Rajat Pandit, TNN

Chinese and other submarines are fast stepping up their forays into the Indian Ocean region (IOR) but India continues to drag its feet in acquiring advanced helicopters that operate from warships to detect, track and kill such underwater predators.

The irony is that while the Navy is on track to induct four-five major warships every year over the next decade, with as many as 40 ships already on order in domestic shipyards, the anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters to provide them with "close-in protection" are nowhere in sight.

The Navy currently has just 11 Kamov-28 and 17 Sea King ASW helicopters to defend its existing fleet of over 130 warships from enemy submarines on the prowl silently. While the Sea Kings are over 20 years old, the Kamov-28s are long overdue for a mid-life upgrade.

With only half of these aging helicopters operationally available at any given time, alarms bells have begun to clang loudly at this "critical operational gap" in the IOR which is getting "dense with foreign submarines", say sources.

The Navy is already grappling with a crippling shortage in missiles to arm the Israeli Barak-I anti-missile defence systems on its 14 frontline warships, including aircraft carrier INS Viraat, due to a seven-year-old CBI probe into kickbacks in the original contract.

"It's like a double-whammy. The protective shield around the warships is fast eroding," said a source. The ASW helicopters fly ahead of warships to "dunk" their sonars in the "tropical waters" of IOR to depths like 200-300 metres, listen for underwater electronic and other signals of submarines, track and then eliminate threats to "sanitize" the path for the fleet.

It has being almost a decade since the Navy initiated a case to acquire 16 new multi-role helicopters with potent ASW capabilities. But it's yet to fructify due to the government's slow decision-making process, coupled with squabbling between contenders European NH-90 and American Sikorsky-70B helicopters.

This contract is crucial since it is to be followed by a bigger deal for 123 helicopters — in the 9 to 12.5-tonne class with ASW capabilities as well as customized for amphibious assaults and commando operations — at a cost of over $3 billion.

The abysmal situation can be gauged from the fact that even aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, the rechristened Admiral Gorshkov slated for commissioning in mid-November after a $2.33 billion refit in Russia, has no ASW helicopters earmarked for it till now. "A carrier battle group requires at least 8 to 10 ASW helicopters," said a source.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Oct 2013 09:54

till date the only in-service AIP systems seem to be
- MESMA (with TSP onlee)
- swedish Stirling system now owned by HDW (on Soryu and sweden gotland class)
- siemens PEM system on U212 and U214

thats the complete list I think.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 03 Oct 2013 14:22

It is a tragedy and outright shame that our "Deaf Min".......sorry,Def. Min. St.Anthony,who hails from the maritime state of Kerala,which has traded with Europe from Roman times and which saw just over 500 years ago the arrival of the European navies off the Malabar coast which led to the conquest of India,so insensitive and indifferent to the critical requirements of the Indian Navy.The crisis in the sub fleet even before the disaster of the S'Rakshak,was the worst kept secret of the IN.Warships languishing without their air defence SAMs,an aging small anti-sub helo component,where about 100 ASW helos are required asap.What on earth is the DM doing? Does the UPA/Congress want India to be defeated in the next war? One can only describe this callous attitude as the worst case of dereliction of duty since '62. History is repeating itself this time as a farce after the tragedy of '62,and strangely enough,we have another Keralite DM (no disrespect to the loyal and patriotic people of Kerala) supposedly in charge,allegedly more interested in affairs of his home state than the state of India's security.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Garooda » 03 Oct 2013 17:22

OT related to salvage operations of naval vessels.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Oct 2013 14:51

India To Require BrahMos Missile for Next Subs

NEW DELHI — Western competitors could face stiffer competition from the Russians in India’s forthcoming US $12 billion tender for the purchase of six conventional submarines. The Indian Defence Ministry is requiring that submarines in the competition be capable of mounting the Indo-Russian BrahMos cruise missile.

India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation, which is jointly producing the BrahMos with Russia, has persuaded the MoD to incorporate the requirement for the tender, expected to be floated by the end of the year.

DCNS of France, Navantia of Spain and HDW of Germany will offer their submarines in the competition. The Russians, meanwhile, told the Indian Navy this month that their Amur-class submarines could accommodate the BrahMos missile with little modification.

No executive from DCNS, Navantia or HDW would comment on their boats’ ability to carry the missile.

India is finalizing a formal tender to purchase six advanced conventional submarines with air-independent propulsion technology.

The six submarines are to be purchased within the limitations of the Missile Technology Control Regime, which restricts the proliferation of missiles capable of flying beyond 300 kilometers, an MoD official said.

BahMos is homemade and has a range of less than 300 kilometers, which would be best suited for the submarine, the MoD source said.

The submarines are to have a surface speed of 12 knots and submerged speed of 19 knots. They will have a range of 50 to 60 days of navigation on the surface and 20 to 30 days of navigation submerged at 4 knots.

Two of the six submarines are to be made in the overseas shipyard and the remaining four are slotted to be license-produced only in a state-owned shipyard.

The major fire on the Russian-made Sindhurakshak last month has dropped the operational strength of the Indian Navy submarines to only 11. With the decommissioning of the aging German HDW-class submarines next year, the Indian Navy’s total submarine strength could fall to as low as seven by 2015. The fact that the Indian Navy’s submarine fleet size has dropped so low is a point of major concern in the ranks, especially since China’s sub fleet is more than 60, an official said.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 05 Oct 2013 15:51

Unbelievable laxity by Anthony in terms of addressing critical deficiencies. ASW choppers, Barak missiles, 155mm artillery ... the list goes on and on..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 05 Oct 2013 16:05

He is chota MMS basically will not take any action even if some one is caught robbing in front of him in broad daylight but will claim innocence .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 06 Oct 2013 15:16

Appears to be Amur/Brahmos proposal after adding VLS Cells a slight steamlined bump is visible behind the sail ( via trishul-trident )

Fitment of Brahmos onboard Submarine

VLS brahmos

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 06 Oct 2013 16:58

Aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya to be inducted into Navy in Nov after 5 years' delay

The long-delayed aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya will be inducted into Indian Navy by Defence Minister A K Antony during his Russia visit slated between November 15-17.

After a delay of around five years, the 45,000 tonnes aircraft carrier is expected to be handed over to the Navy on November 15 in Russia, where it is presently undergoing refit.

"The Defence Minister is expected to induct the warship into the Indian Navy during his visit for the Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission for Military and Technical Cooperation meeting now expected to be held in November," sources said here.

The visit was earlier scheduled to take place in the third week of October but was put off by the Ministry.

Vikramaditya, formerly known as Admiral Gorskhov, has completed all its trials in the last two months in the Barents Sea and the White Sea after a delay of around five years on several counts.

Once inducted, it will be the second aircraft carrier in the Navy after INS Viraat, giving a strategic advantage in the Indian Ocean.

Vikramaditya, which was scheduled to be delivered in 2008, was supposed to have been handed over to India on December 4, 2012, but sea trials in September that year revealed the ship's boilers were not fully functional.

It then returned to the shipyard for fixing of the problems that were detected during the sea trials.

The two countries had signed the USD 947 million Gorshkov deal in 2004. The deal amount was revised later to USD 2.3 billion.

The induction of Vikramaditya, which is expected to reach India in January 2014 and will be berthed at the Karwar naval base, will bolster India's maritime prowess in the region.

The Navy also has plans of inducting the Indegenous Aircraft Carrier, which is likely to join operational service around 2018-19.

During the Russia visit of the Defence Minister, India is also expected to finalise several important deals including a proposal to procure over 200 T-90 tanks.

The meeting of the IR-IGCMTC is held every alternate year in India and Russia where future cooperation in defence matters between the two sides is decided.

The two sides are expected to discuss a number of deals including the issues relating to the ongoing Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), being developed by Russia jointly with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

India is also likely to address Russia's unhappiness over India's perceived inclination towards the American weapon systems for meeting its defence requirements.

However, Russian-origin equipment still form over 60 per cent of the inventory in the three Services due to the strong long-standing military ties between the two sides.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arijitkm » 07 Oct 2013 17:08

Nuclear submarine engineer found dead on railway tracks in Visakhapatnam

Bodies of two defence personnel were found under suspicious circumstances on the railway tracks falling under Pendurty railway station (PRS) limits of East Coast Railways (ECoR) here on Sunday morning.

On being informed by railway trackmen, Government Railway Police (GRP) at Visakhapatnam railway station immediately reached the spot. Following enquiries, one of the deceased was identified as KK Josh, 34, chief engine room artificer (CERA) at Shipbuilding Centre, a unit of ministry of defence at the Eastern Naval Command (ENC) premises here. The other was identified as Abhish Shivam, 33, a chief engineer working at INS Arihant, India's first nuclear-powered submarine.

While Josh, a resident of Kakani Nagar near the airport, was a native of Kozhikode, Shivam belonged to Ernakulam district in Kerala and was living at the Navy quarters at Dolphins Hills. Both of them were posted in the city three years ago.

The GRP team along with a dog squad and fingerprint team scouted the area around the tracks and collected clues. While GRP cops maintained that a case was registered and awaiting the postmortem report from King George Hospital, relatives of the deceased and the leaders of Kerala Kala Samiti (KKS) alleged that the deaths appeared to be under suspicious circumstances and demanded that the police immediately launch a high-scale probe into the incident.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 07 Oct 2013 17:53

Highly suspicious and a great human loss too.These engineers may have received advanced training in Russia as a sizeable number of naval submariners were sent there for training prior to the ATV/Chakra's arrival. ... 822632.ece

Naval officer's death: Relatives cry foul

By Express News Service - KOCHI
Published: 07th October 2013

The death of Naval official Abeesh T Shivan, 32, at Vishakhapattanam came as a shock to the residents of Okkal, near Perumbavoor.
The relatives said that they were devastated when they were informed about Abeesh’s death by a Naval official at Vishakhapattanam over phone.

Abeesh had recently come home and spent some days with his family last month. They ruled out any possibility of suicide and said that the death was suspicious in nature. Abheesh is the son of Okkal SNDP branch president T D Shivan and former teacher of Okkal Sreenarayana Higher Secondary School. He is survived by wife Lekha and son Aryan. Abheesh’s brother Ajish will reach Vishakapatnam to receive the body and bring it to Okkal. On Sunday, the bodies of Abheesh and Cherian K Josh, both naval employees, were found dead on the railway track under mysterious conditions near Pinagadi Railway Station at Pendurthi in Visakhapatnam district. Association of Keralites President N M Pillai alleged that the death of the two naval employees are a clear case of murder.

“We have informed our stand to the police and have demanded a thorough probe into the matter. We have taken steps to ensure that the body will reach Kerala immediately after the postmortem examination is completed,” he said.

Meanwhile,here's a report on further PLAN sub abse construction and the regional threat it poses. ... 5&cid=1101

PLA constructing underground submarine base: Japanese media

Staff Reporter

A Chinese destroyer departs from the Sanya naval base in Hainan to begin its voyage to the Gulf of Aden. (Photo/Xinhua)

To expand its maritime influence in the disputed South China Sea, China is not only building an aircraft carrier base but is also establishing an underground submarine facility off Hainan island, reports Tokyo's Mainichi Shimbun newspaper.

Various Southeastern Asian nations with interests in the contested waters, including Vietnam and the Philippine, are also strengthening their naval power through purchasing new ships, the paper said. The Vietnam People's Air Force has begun to patrol the air space of the disputed Spratly (Nansha) islands, while President Benigno Aquino III of the Philippines declared that the country will invest around US$1.8 billion to modernize its navy.

Since the defense budget the People's Liberation Army is set around US$100 billion a year, the Philippines is unable to keep up with China's maritime development alone. According to reports, Japan — which is also locked in a territorial dispute with China in the East China Sea — will provide 10 retired patrol vessels to the Philippine Coast Guard.

Meanwhile, to prevent the PLA Navy from entering the Indian Ocean, the Indian Navy continues to construct its indigenous submarine after INS Vikrant, the nation's first domestic carrier was launched this August.

As the PLA Navy currently has 270 advanced warships in service, the US Navy plays a critical role in the region, recently deploying Littoral Combat Ships to Singapore to counter China's rising naval power.

The Spratly islands are contested territory in the South China Sea. The group of more than 750 reefs, islets, atolls, cays and islands are claimed in whole or in part by China, Vietnam, the Philippines, Brunei, Malaysia and Taiwan.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 10 Oct 2013 18:17


My apologies if it had been already posted.

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