MiG-21 News & Discussion

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MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby member_201 » 12 Aug 2003 21:25


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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Jagan » 13 Aug 2003 12:26

13 August : Don’t shoot down IAF over the MiG myths : Air Marshal AK Goel
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=29479


Flying coffins? Don’t kill a good aircraft by bad assumptions
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=28873

People happily seek replacing the 300-odd aircraft in service. This would cost the country upwards of Rs 500,000 crore at an average per unit cost of $40 million — that is, nearly eight-times the annual defence budget, while demanding, as Amartya Sen has, a cut in current levels of defence spending!


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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Jagan » 13 Aug 2003 14:44

The Rediff Interview/Air safety crusader Kavita Gadgil
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/aug/13inter.htm

No. Not once. He never said it. Please don't call MiG planes flying coffins. It is an insult to pilots. Even at this stage we are insulting the boys who are flying by calling the MiG by that name.


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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Shankar » 13 Aug 2003 16:45

Need of the hour is to atleast acknowledge the fact that fishbeds need repalcement and take first step towards that goal.Other than hysterical press no one really wants an overnight repalcement with mirage 2000 or mig 29s not to talk of Tejas but the basic on principle decision need to be taked .Even this is not being done and this is the saddest part of MIG-21 saga.The upgraded fishbeds even today canot be a match for mirage 2000 5 s even if they sport a part stealth cloak.They can never aquire the reliability of a twin engine fulcrum even if their engine is replaced.
Mig 21s belong to an era of air warfare which is outdated forever.Point interception of large bombers is no longer required.Multimission capability at extended patrol range is essential to survive and win a modern air war.More powerful radars call for more space .BVR missiles need more
payload capability ,multi mission capability cals for more hard points,cost of a pilot cals for extra flight safety.IAF spares inventory need to be rationalised and some aircraft or other need no be phased out.Data link capability like in our flankers need to be standerdised across the force and this may be very difficult in case of even bisons.Mid air refueling capability is slowly becomming a standard option and so th elist goes on.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Umrao » 13 Aug 2003 17:37

Daulat Ji>>

This is what I had said in the previous thread. The below is a quote from rediff interview of Mrs. Kavita Gadgil.

"Only if a pilot survives will he be able to tell the tale. On December 21, 2002" ...

.....
But the system mostly blames pilots.

This is wrong. Even planes flown by wing commanders are crashing. How can you say they are also inexperienced? We have to do something to find a solution.

Do you think there is a chalta hai attitude in the air force?

We have to change that attitude. It is not me alone who is raising this question. Parents never feel their children will die when they are alive. I am not one who can take this battle alone. We have to come together and think about air safety.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby kgoan » 13 Aug 2003 20:04

I haven't seen Mrs Gadgils other interviews, but in that Rediff one she comes across as a patriot who has lost a son and is concerned about the the situation.

Clearly she's an IAF "type" who seems to love the institution. Nor do I see any ridiculous claims in what she says, in fact she corrects the interviewer by taking him to task for referring to the MiG's as "flying coffins".

Regardless of the merits or demerits of the MiG 21 case, I think we'd all be better off if there were more Mrs Gadgils around and if they were stirred to action beforehand instead of after.

BTW, note that her organistaion is called 'Tejas". Coincidence? Or is that why she manages to get so many doors opened? Does anyone know?

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 13 Aug 2003 22:03

From Mrs Gadgil's interview:
Thirty IAF planes have crashed in the last 35 months.

Is this correct?

No one came, and that is my real concern. They just forget about the officer's family after they die. Parents encourage their children to join the air force and the air force never thinks about them after their children die.

Surely this is not the practice?

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby putnanja » 14 Aug 2003 00:30

From Asian Age, by ACM Tipnis( Retd), posting in full as it is not archived...

My Fair Lady
- By Air Chief Marshal A.Y. Tipnis (Retd)

An Ode to the Mig 21

How many Indians are likely to be aware that the aviation world is intensely focused this year on celebrating the centenary of the first flight of man in a powered heavier-than-air machine? I would not like to hazard a guess; the most conservative estimate would, in all probability, be an optimist’s foolish hope. For, after all, it was but a mundane antic of two bicycle mechanics, which barely lasted 60 seconds. There was no disaster; all it did was to kick off the advent of man’s conquest of the skies. There is no opportunity now to give grotesque sobriquets to the event at Kitty Hawk.

What hope, indeed, then of an ordinary Indian knowing that the MiG 21 has completed 40 splendid years in the Indian Air Force this year? More likely, he or she will do a double-take on seeing an adjective such as "splendid" associated with the MiG 21 and indignantly demand why a 40-year old hag is still consorting with 20-year old cherubic fighter-jockeys. But one would be a sure winner to bet on the average Indian rattling off MiG 21 accidents, rightly or wrongly, very confidently; he or she is being fed regularly on them by the media. They say, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder; would it be equally valid to say that ugliness lies in the ink of the tainted pen or in the utterance of the twisted tongue? Talent of great masters of words is required to right the injustice that has been heaped on the fair head of that great queen of the skies — MiG 21.

The Mach 2 (Mach 1 is speed of sound) era of the Indian Air Force commenced with the induction of the first six MiG 21s in April/May 1963. The US was cosying up to Pakistan at the time in the former’s bid to soften up the underbelly of the USSR and showered many military gifts on the latter. The gifts included the then much hyped Lockheed F-104 Starfighter and the strategic reconnaissance aircraft Martin RB 57. The F-104 boasted a Mach 2 capability and the RB 57 could fly above 65,000 feet. The MiG 21 matched both these parameters and proved an effective counter to both. Although the MiG 21 was designed essentially as an ultra high speed or ultra high altitude interceptor, given the constraints on acquisition of specifically designed strike aircraft of the time, it had to be adapted for strike and several other roles at medium and low altitudes. The IAF, given its professional adaptability and ingenuity, did so masterfully, albeit accepting (Hobson’s choice) some of its limitations.

The IAF expanded rapidly in the Sixties and the Seventies. At the end of the Seventies, from the initial half squadron of six aircraft, the MiG 21 fleet had grown to about 20 squadrons and more in bits and pieces — a frontline strength of 400 aircraft. And many more as backup for maintenance purpose.

A manufacturer needs nearly a three-year lead-time to commence production after a firm contractual order; initial production rate would not exceed 6-10 aircraft per year, peaking (for a total order of 100-150 ac) to not more than 15-30 units annually. So if an order is placed today for 150 replacement aircraft, it would optimistically take at least six to eight years for completion of delivery. So although the phasing out of the MiG 21 started sometime ago, it will have to continue for at least a decade more, conservatively speaking.

For the last four decades, the MiG 21 has been the back-bone of India’s air defence, both during peace and war. It has kept a constant vigil, day and night; it has chased away trespassers and kept at bay many a potential intruder, shot down a Pak Navy hostile aircraft when it ignored warnings. In the 1965 Indo-Pak war, the half squadron of MiG 21s gave top-cover and manned combat air patrols to protect own offensive strike forces returning home. In 1971 it found martial glory in downing Sabres, MiG 19s and F 104s; Pak Mirage IIIs decided discretion was the better part of valour and stayed clear of our redoubtable lady. The MiG 21 carried out interdiction, close air support to the Army, grounded the PAF in East Pakistan by rendering its runways unusable; and who can forget the coup-de-grace of the MiG 21 rocket attack on the Governor’s House that brought about the Pakistani surrender in the East? It was adapted for high-altitude mountaintop attacks during operation Safed Sagar in the Kargil operations. With the AJT remaining only on the horizon like the elusive rainbow for over two decades, it has shouldered the responsibility for Stage III training of the Air Force most gamely.

The MiG 21 has taken hundreds of pilots onto her lap, taught them, challenged their skills, done their bidding, executed their tasks, brought them indescribable joys, carried them through their occasional crassness and alas, sometimes inevitably succumbed to her own frailty, or to her master’s ineptness. How many of the privileged few, who have tasted the ecstasy of the blue yonder with this trusted mate, have felt they had their Maker’s final call, but had it adjourned to another day through the blessed stubbornness of our beloved lady to protect her own?

I, for one, would like to tell my grandsons many times over of my eternal wonder why I go strong at three score and three when I should have been dust-to-dust at one score eight. Coming home to roost after a day’s aerial job done, all well and perfect for the final run-in to land, when a sudden blur of darkness, a deafening bang, a heart-stopping realisation of a bird in the engine, and then a deathly eerie silence. Engine revolutions zero, too far from the runway, too low to eject; mate becomes mother, hang on to her bosom. Desperately arrest the hurtling-down engine-less descent, manage to scrape over the brick-wall, miraculously miss the drain and then with a bone-shaking jolt down on Mother Earth. Helplessly watch the gentle maid go wild, bump... bump-bump... bump awaiting the final flash and boom to Kingdom come; can’t believe it, suddenly nothing is moving except the shaking limbs. Bone and flesh intact, the Fair Lady bruised perhaps, but still keeping her comely shape. Only a MiG 21 could have withstood this severest of ordeals and brought us through. Sceptical? Ask the rear seat jockey riding with me.

The MiG 21 is a delta wing aircraft, design-optimised, as stated earlier, for very high speed, very high altitude operations. In the ground attack role, it affords restricted forward and sideward fields of view below the horizon. Compared to optimised ground attack aircraft it makes navigation, formation-keeping gunsight handling that much more difficult. The razor-thin wing cross-section facilitates aircraft acceleration, but this also makes the aircraft fly at abnormally high angles of attack during hard manoeuvring — which brings in additional penalties, further cramped forward visibility and its entailing difficulties. If not watched closely, speed decay can be rapid and descent can set in unknowingly which cannot be discerned from the attitude of the aircraft; frequent reference to instruments becomes essential, but this conflicts with the head-out-of-cockpit requirement for combat. The approach speed for landing can be 60-80 kmph higher than other contemporary or more modern aircraft; touch-down speed is 30-50 kmph higher; approach slope for landing is steeper and the rate of descent much higher than most other aircraft. This calls for quicker reaction and offers less margin for error. At the end of a mission, the short endurance available allows little scope for waiting things out or offer the luxury of going to more sedate pastures when conditions deteriorate at base. Training, of course, is designed to manage all this and give pilots the required skills and the personality traits so essential for facing the challenges of fighter-flying. The true air-warrior thrives on challenges and tough situations. However, the continuous high demands on skills, alertness, mental resilience and the steadiness of nerve sometimes, under critical condition, over-taxes a pilot’s reserves in some of these essentials; even a transitory lapse can prove disastrous.

While today one may claim that the IAF is aware of all the possible pitfalls in flying the MiG 21, and training schedules address them with intent to prevent recurrence. Unfortunately, the known errors do occur again and again. Contrary to what the public is made to believe by the media and sometimes by the bereaved next-of-kin, IAF safety programmes study deeply the whys of human failures and constantly endeavour to find antidotes.

Aerodynamic designs, aviation engineering, avionics and aircraft instruments are advancing at an ever accelerating pace, but even the most advanced aerial platforms benefit by post-manufacturing modifications and upgradations. While most proposed modifications may be desirable, few are mandatory. Mandatory modifications may have flight safety implications and have to be implemented within specified time-frame, the desirable ones would be opted for on the basis of evaluation of benefits accrued, against costs involved, time required for implementation and life available after implementation. All the variants of the MiG 21 and their power plants have undergone several modifications. It needs to be noted that random failures do not always get diagnosed fully for a satisfactory solution to be found for the problem. It is equally true that some problems do resurface even after modifications to overcome the problem have been implemented; this phenomenon is also applicable to other aircraft. The search for finding a lasting solution at times may appear never-ending. Just as air crew are prone to errors, ground crew do also fall prey to the human error bug. There are dynamic programmes to overcome this scourge. Total success is often elusive.

Question is often asked why the MiGs feature so prominently in the mishap reporting on the IAF. The most prominent factor is of course the fast developing activism of the Indian media. What is less today than before seems more because of the prominence given to it. IAF may be losing on an average 20 aircraft annually at present, the figure was in excess of 30, sometimes touching 40, three to four decades ago. A large majority of the lay public think that all MiGs are MiG 21s. MiG is an aircraft designing and manufacturing concern. From this aviation industry house IAF has acquired five different types of aircraft: 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, all with a prefix of MiG. Except for the 27, which is a derivative of the 23, they are as different from each other as the Mirage 2000 is from the Jaguar. Put together these five MiG aircraft constitute 80 per cent of the IAF fighter strength and pile up 84 per cent of the total fighter flying. MiG 21s (there are five major variants with the IAF) make up for 48 per cent of the fighter muscle, provide 53 per cent of the flying, hour-wise, but a massive 70 per cent of the effort if calculated sortie-wise (simply stated, one outing of an aircraft i.e. take off to landing is one sortie).

The MiG 21 safety record is certainly not enviable, but an attempt has been made to explain the human and technical causative factors. Further, given our security scenario, the Armed Forces have had to maintain a constant high state of alert with a well-trained-ready-for-battle soldier, sailor and airman. The Indian fighter pilots’ operational training envelope is as tough as that for actual battle, barring the hostile bullet. This has put high demands on pilots’ skills and aircraft performance. The Indian skies are not particularly aviation-friendly. Birds jostle with aircraft for airspace (or is it the other way around?). Even good eyes (a fighter pilot’s greatest assets) are hard put to sight through the murkiness of Indian atmosphere at low and medium altitudes. Fighter operations cover great expanses of skies. One composite formation is spread over several kilometres and intruders (mock and actual) are required to be spotted at even greater distances.

Fighter pilots give a sigh of relief when the weather-man declares visibility in excess of 4 kms, for it allows unrestricted fighter flying. Four-km visibility and sighs of relief, if not cries of joy! Ha! I have flown in several countries and one can see as far as the eye would allow, sometimes one felt you could see tomorrow! It’s not that this does not occur at home, but the phenomenon is so rare (unless one flies over Ladakh) that nearly every such occasion can be recalled vividly. So what causes poor visibility a near round-the-year painful experience in India? Moisture/salt/ dust-in-suspension, industrial/ vehicular pollution, rural chullah fires or field burning for soil rejuvenation. You name the culprit, we have it. I have touched only on the tip of the proverbial iceberg. There are impediments galore to safe aviation. Some solutions are simple, but others are highly complex and require interaction with and understanding of a host of agencies, not all necessarily connected with aviation.

This essay is not meant to be a defence of the indefensible (as some would like to charge, and the odd surely will) but an attempt to correct the blemished image of IAF’s safety record, in particular that of the MiG 21 which is not an untarnished viceless goddess, but a sometime erring, yet always trying lady whose enormous virtues get obliterated by the mishaps blown out of proportion.

My parting lines on the demonising of the MiG 21 are thus: Heed not the barbed taunt of "widow-maker" my lovely filly, for you are in fact a man-maker of boys. Were I to go down with you, my soul would have been tortured to have anyone call you my "flying-coffin"; but my soul would have been mercifully becalmed would that our joint epitaph proudly proclaimed: "In life you offered this pilot a seat more coveted than that of a king’s; in death you took an air-warrior to his glorious Valhalla." But I live, so I hope that I am there 10 years from now, along with your many disciples and admirers and our progeny and theirs too, to sing your praises for your half-a-century of relentless, superlative service to the nation and the Indian Air Force. Others may continue to call you vulgar names when there is a choice of prettier ones, as some that I have used, but there be many more, more appropriate, but inadequately so. One day surely you must rest your hard driven limbs, but to each one of us whom you took to your bosom, whether in service or in retirement, you will ever remain "My Fair Lady"!

As told to Venkat Parsa Air Chief Marshal A.Y. Tipnis(Retd) is a former Chief of Air Staff

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_M » 14 Aug 2003 01:11

Thank you so much, Ravi!

A large majority of the lay public think that all MiGs are MiG 21s. MiG is an aircraft designing and manufacturing concern. From this aviation industry house IAF has acquired five different types of aircraft: 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, all with a prefix of MiG. Except for the 27, which is a derivative of the 23, they are as different from each other as the Mirage 2000 is from the Jaguar
I've been sparing no effort in making sure those who ask me questions with the word "MiG" used carte blanch, for a long long time now.

Always had regard for Tipnis, have some more now.

And anyone who faults the MiG-21s performance could do well to talk to him, or someone like Samar Shar for that matter.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Roop » 14 Aug 2003 05:26

That was a wonderful article by Tipnis, and the first serious effort (as far as I can remember) that anyone has made to defend the Mig-21 in public with specific defences and assertions.

I wish the IAF had made these Tipnis-like efforts earlier. Instead, they just ignored the PR problem, hoping it would go away, and now look what they have on their hands -- bereaved mothers and widows bashing the plane on public TV. This is a serious PR problem, and one that was entirely avoidable.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby member_5654 » 14 Aug 2003 10:01

An excellent article. If these efforts were made little earlier, IAF could have reduced the DDM rattling about Mig21. I have taken pain in explaining to my friends that Mig doesn't mean just Mig21, but very few rectify the mistakes (could be due to consistent DDM rattling). Very few actually understand the difficulties in flying this plane, especially the high landing speeds & higher rate of descent.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 14 Aug 2003 13:31

Originally posted by Mohan Raju:


I wish the IAF had made these Tipnis-like efforts earlier. .
I would like to say: WE are at least partially responsible for that.

We have fought for years to be heard and have said that we ARE interested and that there ARE people about who will listen and understand if you talk jargon and explain. We (BRites) have been responsible for passing the message through private and public channels and talking about it. No other medium has done it AFAIK.

Not the print media. Not the electronic media.

Thanks for posting that article.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Jagan » 14 Aug 2003 16:36

Aug 14: Govt buys 27 second-hand MiG trainer aircrafts
http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=13225651

While 19 trainers planes were bought from Kyrgystan, eight came from Ukraine, Fernandes said.

The Defence Minister said this had been done as new MiG-21 trainer aircrafdt were not available in the global market since they were out of production. Therefore "induction of second-hand MiG-21 trainerrs have been resorted to meet the training requirements of IAF," he said.

Fernandes said "the cost of second-hand MiG-21 trainer is approximately Rs 2.5 crore and the cost of a new fighter aircraft in the air superiority class is approximately Rs 190 crore."


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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Arun A » 14 Aug 2003 23:04

India admits it bought used MiG-21 jets

India on Thursday admitted it had purchased used or decommissioned trainer versions of the Russian-made MiG-21 jet to meet "urgent training requirements" of the Air Force.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Samir » 14 Aug 2003 23:20

Originally posted by Arun A:
India admits it bought used MiG-21 jets
I love the tone of this headline. "Admitted", like they were caught committing a crime. Ji huzoor, hamse galti ho gayee, maaf kariye.

On another note, I wish the IAF would publish in part or completely the results of the courts of enquiry into each crash.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Shankar » 18 Aug 2003 12:53

I agree -IAF should publish at elast the basic details of each air acciedent in a transparent manner.If engine failure is the problem -there is no harm in saying it so is the case of a pilot error -where he went wrong and things like that.Just like ther is nothing wrong in buying used aircraft like mrage 2000 5 from Quater -it will be a welcome addition.We also need to highlight the modern migs particularly the 29s

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby JCage » 18 Aug 2003 16:11

Originally posted by Samir:
Originally posted by Arun A:
[b]India admits it bought used MiG-21 jets
I love the tone of this headline. "Admitted", like they were caught committing a crime. Ji huzoor, hamse galti ho gayee, maaf kariye.

On another note, I wish the IAF would publish in part or completely the results of the courts of enquiry into each crash.[/b]
I know,i know-like "they got caught ji...in parliament that too"!..
The media has selected the 21 as its "crusade"...so let us suggest that the entire Hindustan times ,TOI staff all give up their salary so that the poor IAF can admittedly buy the Mirage,Rafale or whichever a/c they admittedly want. ;)

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Aug 2003 19:28

From newsinsight.net:




India, Russia agree to develop joint strike fighter
22 August 2003: India has agreed to develop a fifth-generation joint strike fighter with Russia with the performance parameters of the under-test US F-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

After seven rounds of discussions, India has decided to provide software, electronics, R & D investment for ten years, and imported navigational systems for the fighter, while Russia will give technical knowhow and its infrastructural facilities, with wings designed by Western companies.

At a production cost of $10 billion,(? Could be program cost in 2003 $) the joint strike fighter is considered cheap for its class, which like the F-22 will have first-look, first-shot and first-kill capability, and give air dominance to user countries for at least twenty-five years.

From the Indian side, DRDO and HAL will participate in the project, with some components manufactured in HAL~s Bangalore plant, while the Russian end will be managed by Rosoboronexport and science and technology provided by the Russian Academy of Sciences.

Besides the joint strike fighter, India and Russia are also collaborating to develop three variants of nuclear-capable cruise missiles.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Nandai » 24 Aug 2003 14:05


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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Kuttan » 24 Aug 2003 16:29

and give air dominance to user countries for at least twenty-five years.
:rotfl:

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 24 Aug 2003 16:51

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=30213

HAuLed up

Saikat Datta

New Delhi, August 23: On September 9 last year, two MiG-21s crashed, one in Rajasthan, the other in Ambala. The Indian Air Force, as is the norm, ordered an inquiry but this inquiry is turning out to be far from routine.

Official records accessed by The Sunday Express show that it has led to a severe, unprecedented indictment of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited which maintains the IAF’s fighter fleet and is the Government’s showpiece for the manufacture of training and combat aircraft.

So strong is the indictment that HAL chairman N R Mohanty has agreed, for the first time ever, to post Russian expert ‘‘audit teams’’ at HAL sites (Lucknow, Koraput, Nashik) to ensure better quality control in engine repair and overhaul. The first team is expected this month.

Since the IAF probe began, it has lost six more aircraft due to ‘‘technical defects,’’ all maintained and overhauled by HAL. In fact, of the 315 MiG-21s lost over the last 30 years, 118 were due to ‘‘technical defects’’.

When contacted, the IAF spokesperson declined to comment on the exchanges with HAL. But its conclusion that HAL’s quality control ‘‘shook our confidence,’’ is based not only on its own probe but also investigation done by a team of experts specially flown in from RAC-MiG in Russia, the original manufacturers.

Consider the sequence of events:

• On November 25, 2002, Air Headquarters wrote to Mohanty saying its findings ‘‘shook our confidence in the quality control at HAL.’’

Both the September 9 crashes, the letter said, were due to ‘‘flame-out’’ (sudden seizure) in the engine because of faults found in the Rotary Slide Valve (RSV), the critical component that regulates how much fuel reaches the MiG’s engine.

Traces of silica, sodium, calcium, aluminium had jammed the valve causing the accident—metals not from the valve’s material. In other words, these impurities sneaked in during cleaning or installation.

• Air Headquarters then sent a team of two officers to HAL divisions in Koraput and Lucknow where the MiG engines are assembled. Based on the team’s feedback, HAL was told that ‘‘a lot needs to be done to improve (its) environment and technical practices.’’

And that actions was required “on a war footing to improve deficiency areas...improve the level of awareness at the shop-floor level personnel.’’ • On February 25, 2003, Air Headquarters sent a second letter suggesting that a dedicated team of specialists from all HAL divisions—Lucknow, Koraput, Nashik—‘‘carry out a study to resolve the issue of the (valve) RSV seizure.’’

• In April, Air Headquarters got a team of Russian specialists from RAC-MiG, the original manufacturers, to fly down and visit the HAL division in Koraput as well as the Air Force station in Ambala to investigate the causes of engine seizure.

• Based on the Russians’ findings, another letter, dated June 18, 2003, was sent to HAL. In this the indictment was sweeping: 70% of the cases of engine seizure were barely within hours of overhaul; fuel system was contaminated, specified design and technology parameters were being violated. (see box)

It was this that prompted Air Headquarters to suggest to HAL that a ‘‘Russian audit team (be posted) at the work sites’’ to improve the quality control process.

And on July 10, 2003, HAL chief Mohanty wrote back to Air Headquarters acknowledging that the problem of valve seizure had been viewed with ‘‘serious concern’’ and a ‘‘number of initiatives’’ taken in areas of ‘‘over haul and testing and better fuel management.’’

According to his letter—Mohanty was unavailable for comment—HAL took several other steps: training of technical personnel, proper flushing of the engines, daily check of fuel cleanliness and internal audits of the respective divisions.

He also agreed with Air Headquarters’ suggestions to post a Russian team of specialists from RAC-MiG and INKAR, the original manufacturers of the engine’s fuel pump, in India.

On the problem of lack of cleanliness in the engines, which had proved fatal for the aircraft would be addressed, ‘‘as suggested in the (Russian) report’’ and ‘‘units in the assembly line will be checked for cleanliness again after’’ the engines were flushed.
Box-

HAL CHAIRMAN’S
REPLY ON JULY 10

• Problem of seizure viewed with serious concern
• Several initiatives taken in overhaul, testing and fuel management
• Rearrangement of assembly and repair section, daily check of cleanliness
• Russian expert audit teams expected soon
Box-

FROM IAF TO HAL: THE ROCKETS
• (Our findings) shook our confidence in quality control at HAL.
• A lot needs to be done to improve technical practices at HAL and the environment
• Seizure (of MiG engine valves) has increased—in 70 per cent of cases, it occurs within first few hours of overhaul
• Contamination of fuel system, violation of design parameters

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby JCage » 24 Aug 2003 23:02

Spoke to a HAL gentleman recently-the work force at Nasik in "one" unit is heavily organised into labour unions etc and politically connected and cant be touched.*(*A similar situation exists at many OFB's)

This is not the situation with another unit which supplies spares for BRD11(mig-29) according to a SqLdr and AC who aid HAL in R&D 'ing both mandatory and non mandatory spares.They were also satisfied with the 29 engines which have i/put from both Koraput and Nasik.So the 29 appears to be "safe".So do the 23 and 27 as the chaps present at the 23&27 main units also said that things were "ok" when quizzed.The 23 spares supply from FSU etc is still erratic and the a/c are on the way out.

The HAL Bangalore & Hyderabad divisions seem to have much better i/put and faith from the AF/army as well.I spoke to pilots from M2K and Chopper background about the two divisions and they were positive.Some stuff about avionics as well.Hyderabad handles a lot of aionics and are making stuff for the Vetrivale and other upgrade stuff as well.

JMHO and this is not a flame bait but work culture seems to be more deficit in some of the northern states.The OFB record seems to bear it out.The MP ordnance factories require a cleaning on the scale of the Augean stables.Khamaria has been indirectly responsible for the death of T72 tank crews and I am yet to see any workers/management punished for the same.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Kuttan » 25 Aug 2003 00:47

The MP ordnance factories require a cleaning on the scale of the Augean stables
I've seen some people who came from said place, and I would agree with that assessment at least from those examples.

In the above specific case of cleaning the valves, I think its either an honest error or sabotage. Its not the maintenance was not done, apparently, but whatever gunk they used to clean the valves apparently left metallic residue and made the valves seize.

Quite possible that this was sabotage - NOT by the actual people who did the maintenance work, but maybe in the chain where the cleaning compounds were supplied. Lets see what develops.

It should be remembered that the "audit team" had a very strong motive to blame maintenance - they were from the engine manufacturers.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Div » 25 Aug 2003 01:14

Posting in full as url might be temporary....

MiG accidents and advanced trainers
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/stories/2003082500100300.htm

WITH RECENT media attention focussed on MiG-21 crashes and the seeming absence of advanced trainers, it is worth examining the facts `behind' the stories. First the statistics: Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy stated at a press conference last June that in the over 553,000 sorties flown since the MiGs were inducted into the Indian Air Force nearly forty years ago, 98 have resulted in serious crashes with 43 fatalities. Concentrating on the recent past, 1999-2000 saw 11 MiG crashes of an IAF total of 24; 2000-01, 11 out of 22; while 2001-02 saw 6 MiG crashes out of 20. An unfortunate increase in high profile accidents (11 out of a total of 21) last year has drawn understandable public concern, with the Russian fighters being dubbed `flying coffins' and worse.

The approximately 1.7 serious accidents for every 10,000 sorties flown statistic quoted by the Air Chief two months ago is prima facie rather high by the best international standards, but misleading unless one also looks at the `proportions' — MiG-21 squadrons comprise nearly 40 per cent of active fighter squadrons, so one should, other things being equal, see a proportionate accident rate — a fact. Secondly, the very short MiG-21 sorties, with many lasting only about 20 minutes, are much more subject to the relatively dangerous take-off and landing phases of all flying. Thirdly, all MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and Su-30 pilots have already flown MiG-21s extensively and are, thus, much more experienced than the average rookie finding his shaky legs, so one should not compare Mirage accident rates with those of MiGs (not that they don't occur!). Last, but not least, only about two annually occur in North-Eastern India where young pilots `step up' to high-performance Mig-21s after flying much slower HAL `Kirans' during basic training. With only 10 per cent of total crashes thus attributable directly to this `conversion' stage, collective hysteria on the absence of an advanced trainer seems more than a little unjustified.

Pilot training

It is instructive, in this context, to double back and examine IAF pilot training. Most join the Air Force Academy at Dundigal, near Hyderabad, as graduates of the National Defence Academy where they, along with Army and Navy cadets, have been given a good general education capped by a very basic introduction to flying.

A few `Direct Entry' cadets who have already spent a first term at Dundigal `coming up to speed' then join them in Phase 1 of pilot training which includes ground studies in aerodynamics, propulsion, navigation, meteorology and so on followed by, and concurrent to, primary flying on the Deepak piston engined trainer made by HAL, Kanpur. Those successfully passing through this screening stage transit to the Kiran or the Polish Iskra basic jet trainers for Phase 2 training, with the `Kiran stream' moving onto armament training on the Kiran II.

Until very recently `streaming' into fighter, transport or helicopter training only took place after this basic jet stage, but the current syllabus streams immediately after Phase 1. Primary training has now been made more demanding for the purpose both by increasing the number of flying hours as well as by introducing night and formation flying early on. Much more importantly, pilot `wastage' (or failure) rates have dramatically increased at the primary and basic training stages. This is a result of a deliberate attempt to weed out marginal (leave alone poor) material as soon as possible and has been as rigorously applied to the helicopter stream as the one for fighters, although some `rehabilitation' is allowed for the transport pilots. Secondly, attempts are also made to ensure that good pilots (and not merely `rejects') go into helicopters and transports.

The largest group of the newly commissioned officers heads for Assam, and the MiG Operational Flying Training Units there, to be trained on fighters while the remainder undergo further transport and helicopter pilot training at other IAF bases. Phase 3 of fighter pilot training lasts for a year and is conducted on twin and single-seat MiG-21s. Passing out of MOFTU means that the young officer finally becomes a fighter pilot who stays with the 21s or moves onto other aircraft.

In the early 1980s the IAF decided that it was facing unacceptably high aircraft and pilot losses and set up a committee under Air Marshal La Fontaine to study the problem. The committee submitted its report in 1984 saying that the accidents were a result of having to `convert onto' high performance MiG-21 fighters straight from Kirans and Iskras and recommended that the solution lay with introducing advanced jet trainers to bridge the gap. Interestingly, it chose not to comment on why two perfectly serviceable squadrons of transonic HF-24 `Marut' trainers had just been retired although they had been designed and manufactured by HAL for precisely that purpose. Maruts had distinguished themselves earlier as outstanding fighter-bombers in the 1971 Indo-Pak conflict.

The BAe `Hawk' has ever since been the front-runner to fill that slot although often challenged by the Franco-German `Alphajet' and by the Czech L-159. By all accounts the Hawk is an excellent aircraft — the `Rolls Royce' of AJTs currently in production, but like the Rolls Royce it is very expensive (the 44 ordered in July for the RAF will cost 800 million pounds sterling when delivered in 2008) and not always appropriate. Besides which, no AJT is a magic bullet that can single-handedly transform pilot training, leave alone eliminate MiG accidents. Concentrating on AJT acquisition has also, in the past, diverted attention from very important concerns such as pilot selection and training, maintenance, and so on. The IAF has, correctly, already made considerable progress in addressing these issues, but the results of those systemic improvements can only be felt a few years down the road — something that an impatient general public should keep in mind.

In historical perspective, Air Chief Marshal Moolgavkar, in the 1970s, was probably the first senior IAF officer to make a concerted effort to address the question of high accident rates and his approach was already bearing fruit when the La Fontaine committee `diverted' attention towards an AJT. More recently, Air Chief Marshal Tipnis, who following the disastrous era of Sareen and his coterie, correctly recognised that the IAF did not consist purely of fighter pilots (leave alone exist only for them!) and revamped selection and training systems for all ranks and `trades' with the singular objective of improving the organisation as a whole. It is pleasing to report that his successor, the present Air Chief, continues the good work and has also addressed the issue of promotions.

India needs lead-in trainers and it needs them quickly if nothing else to replace the ageing two-seat MiG-21s that are no longer available. An ad hoc purchase of 15 or 16 used ex-RAF Hawks would very quickly, in no more than 6 to 9 months, meet the IAF's immediate needs — new Hawks would take years to be delivered. The Royal Air Force aircraft were refurbished with new wings in the early 1990s and have more recently had their centre and rear fuselages replaced, while their easy-to-service engines are very similar to those on IAF Jaguars — that they continue to have cockpits of old design is irrelevant because they will primarily `lead-in' to older MiG-21s for at least several years. Used Hawks should cost little more than the $5 million rate at which Volker Ruhe, then German defence minister, offered India Alphajets in the mid 1990s.

Last word

It is often forgotten that two-seat MiG-21s were primarily designed as `type trainers' — aircraft that the IAF will need for at least another decade. `A pie in the sky' thought is that India could buy them from the world's only continuing source of the type — the JJ-7 made by the Guizhou Aircraft Company. A three-way deal would have India being `allowed' to buy the ten Qatari Mirage 2000-5s that the IAF is lusting after and two dozen Chinese JJ-7s `in exchange for' Pakistan getting a squadron of used Belgian F-16As. Both would benefit by not putting spokes in each other's wheels or bankrupting one other with `beggar thy neighbour' bidding wars. Can one think of a better sub-continental confidence building measure?

C. Manmohan Reddy

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Jagan » 26 Aug 2003 12:33

First the statistics: Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy stated at a press conference last June that in the over 553,000 sorties flown since the MiGs were inducted into the Indian Air Force nearly forty years ago,
553000 sorties was for the last ten years..not for the forty years.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 26 Aug 2003 15:09

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=146324

No indictment from IAF: HAL chairman

ANANTHA KRISHNAN M

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ MONDAY, AUGUST 25, 2003 11:48:49 PM ]

KOCHI: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) on Sunday denied reports that the IAF has come down heavily on the company over the recent spate of MiG crashes. In an interview to The Times of India, HAL chairman Nalini Ranjan Mohanty countered reports that IAF had blamed his organisation for the crashes.

‘‘There’s no indictment. In fact, IAF and HAL have the best of understanding and appreciation,’’ he said.

Mohanty said the five-decade-old MiGs were very demanding machines. But the lack of modern systems like the full authority digital electronic control (FADEC) and the mission computers made them more susceptible, he said.

The MiG-21 BIS was being upgraded, and HAL and IAF had asked the Russians to suggest measures to bring down the rate of accidents, he said. On HAL’s relationships with the IAF, he said, ‘‘We strive to meet their requirements, and this is well appreciated by our customer. Last year, our export order was over Rs 100 crore, and today, the international community is with us.’’

On the visit of Russian audit teams to HAL installations, he said, ‘‘We have invited them to check the facilities. Even specialists from Turbomeca (France), Rolls Royce (UK) and Textron Lycoming (US) visit us regularly. These are perpetual quality check exercises, carried out to improve the quality of our products and services.’’ Listing out major modifications that have been carried out by the Russians on the MiGs, Mohanty said even that country had faced problems with MiGs.

‘‘The number of IAF projects we have on hand is a testimony to the confidence the IAF has in us. The IAF has promised to place an order for the first series production of 12 IJTs during the certification period itself. The first prototype of the Light Combat Helicopter will fly within 25 months of the go-ahead,’’ said Mohanty.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Rishi » 26 Aug 2003 21:59

Here is something from a F102 pilot on his experience on flying a delta wing a/c:
(from another forum)

I flew the F102 about 1500 hours and did just about everything that
can be done in that aircraft. (only did one one-turn spin, though; it
was accidental, and recovery was standard and quick). The F102 had
about 740 sq ft of wing and clean weighed about 28000 for takeoff.
(38#/sqft!) The aircraft could be flown down to 90 knots controllably
in what looked like level flight but starting just below about 115 you
were descending and the only way to break the descent and accelerate
was by decreasing the angle of attack. Tough if you're close to the
ground. At 115 KIAS you were close to 30 degrees AOA and at the limit
of one-G flight in full afterburner. At 90 KIAS you were going down at
over 6000 FPM. Here is where a lot of transitioning pilots got in
trouble; they'd fly a 360 overhead (VFR) pattern, get too slow on
final (lulled into complacency by the ease of control) realize at last
they were going to land short and now go to full military power to
either reach the runway or go-around, and pull back on the stick 'to
reduce the descent rate', thus increasing the AOA and the induced drag
to horrific levels. Afterburner might have allowed them to fly out of
trouble but being new and 'unadvised' they would be loath to call for
it until too late. Result - prang. The B58 had sinmilar problems even
with experienced pilots. (Paris Air Show - 2X). FWIW there were NO
stall warnings whatsoever in the F102. The airplane felt good and
solid all the way down the airpseed scale. The caveat in the Flight
Manual was that if aileron was used to control wing drop at 90 KIAS
the airplane could/would spin. It felt just as solid at 115 as it did
at 500. As for the MiG21 - I do not know the airplane but do know it
has a much higher wing loading than the F102 (its rotation speed is
about 50 knots faster (F102 clean - ISTR 144) and I presume the final
approach speed is about the same amount greater. 150 on final was
plenty for the Deuce; at about 135 or so you were close to dragging
the tail end, but it was still under fine control. So the MiG is a hot
airplane on takeoff and landing. It has to have lots of energy to
execute hard turns in any flight plane, including a Split-Ess. Any
delta will shed energy under high G so quickly it will catch
'unadvised' pilots by surprise. A demo maneuver for transitioning
pilots was to roll the TF trainer (tub - side by side ugly mother)
inverted at 30 degrees noseup and 250 KIAS at 25,000 and
simultaneously light AB and suck back the stick to 5G and execute a
Split Ess from 25,000. Result - level flight at 22,000 and 225-250.
Done at 3,000 AGL with an F100 on your tail resulted in shucking the
Hun. They dared not try to follow you. I suspect a lot of MiGs were
lost in air-to ground weapons deliveries begun at too low an energy
level. Also - what are the MiG's spin/departure characteristics? The
original 21 was a lightweight bird - the last models are pretty heavy
even clean. And then there is always - how current are the pilots? How
good is the maintenance? There was a negative comment in AVWeek
recently on the 21's engine maintenance. Obviously critical on a
single engined aircraft.

My two cents worth as an ex-F102A pilot/maintenance test/flight
examiner - Walt BJ

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Vasu » 27 Aug 2003 03:47

MiGs not to be part of Chennai airshow

IAF?s Training Command Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Air Marshal B.K. Pandey said MiG-21s won?t be part of the show considering the ??flight safety implications??. He said the aircraft in the air show were twin-engine machines whereas single-engine machines were slow training aircraft.
whats the meaning of the last line? :confused:

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Ashutosh » 27 Aug 2003 09:46

Basically it says "Bite me. DDM alert."

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 27 Aug 2003 09:54

The approximately 1.7 serious accidents for every 10,000 sorties flown statistic quoted by the Air Chief two months ago is prima facie rather high by the best international standards, but misleading unless one also looks at the `proportions' — MiG-21 squadrons comprise nearly 40 per cent of active fighter squadrons, so one should, other things being equal, see a proportionate accident rate — a fact
1.70/10,000 for MiG-21s only or for whole IAF?

1.89/10,000 -> 1997 acc to CAG (MiG-21 Only)

Interestingly, it chose not to comment on why two perfectly serviceable squadrons of transonic HF-24 `Marut' trainers had just been retired although they had been designed and manufactured by HAL for precisely that purpose.
What about Gnat Trainer?

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Jagan » 27 Aug 2003 12:04

Aditya,

I belive the CAG Figures are for hours while the CAS figures are for Sorties.

That quote about using Marut trainers in AJT role is more DDM. to start with, there were only 18 or so two seaters built. The Hunter trainer was used in the HOFTU role, and if the Hunter is not suited for the AJT tasks, i fail to see how the marut can do the same.

Meanwhile here is an article that points to HAL
HAuLed up
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=30213

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Umrao » 02 Sep 2003 19:18

( we have a whole lot things that need to be cleaned up before we can say MiG-21 is the best)

IAF releases inquiry report into MiG-21 crash

Josy Joseph in New Delhi | September 02, 2003 19:36 IST

The Indian Air Force today blamed "a slight error of judgement" on the part of a trainee pilot and some mechanical problems for the July 14 crash of a MiG-21 trainer in Srinagar. The trainee and his instructor were killed in the crash.

Making public, probably for the first time, the findings of a court of inquiry into a fighter crash, the IAF tried to dispel the "misunderstandings among some, and the public" that it is trying to hide the reasons for the frequent MiG-21 crashes, Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy, chief of air force staff, said.

"There was a slight error in judgement," Air Commodore P K Barbora, who chaired the court of inquiry, said as he recounted the last 82 seconds of the ill-fated flight and his team's analysis of various aspects relating to that crucial period.

Flight Lieutenant B Ganesh was training to overshoot (fly extremely close to the ground) and then gain height again before eventually landing in the night without the assistance of electronic lights, to simulate a war situation in which all installations have been bombed out.

The plane crashed when he was trying to gain height, killing both Flt Lt Ganesh and his commanding officer, Wing Commander R Rustogi, who was in the rear seat.

The height at which Srinagar airport is located resulted in the MiG-21 engine not performing up to its peak, Air Cmde Barbora explained. In such cases, certain precautions, including a "smart way" of opening the throttle, need to be taken to counter the drop in performance. "Engine performance reduced as it was going up," the inquiry officer said.

Apparently, Flt Lt Ganesh initiated the climb before covering the required distance for overshooting. Also, the angle of the climb was a "little steeper", the air commodore said. The plane climbed up to a particular height, but then began losing height and power and crashed within the next few seconds.

At some point during the incident, the pilots tried to eject from the aircraft, but the ejection mechanism failed.

The pilot's error, the court of inquiry concluded, combined with the effect of other factors, including higher plane weight owing to more fuel in the tank, resulted in the tragedy. The extra fuel, Air Cmde Barbora said, could have been burnt off with an extra circle overhead before trying the overshoot.

The other factors that contributed to the crash were premature initiation of the climb, delayed opening of the throttle, poor engine response, and the reduced power available because of the lower performance of the fighter at that height.

Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy said he sought the government's clearance to make the findings of the court of inquiry public to allay fears of a cover-up. Usually such reports are classified.

<h3>Air Cmde Barbora admitted, however, that "it stands to reason" that if the IAF had an advanced jet trainer or a better trainer, accidents would be fewer and trainees would get a second chance to correct their errors </h3>

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Prateek » 03 Sep 2003 23:37


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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby ptraj » 04 Sep 2003 17:41

This probably should be cross-posted in the psy-ops and AJT threads too:

India jet deals faced sabotage

"India's decision to award a huge jet contract to the UK comes just days after news emerged of British and US efforts to sabotage Indian defence deals in the Cold War."

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Rudra » 04 Sep 2003 18:31

Future what to do with MOFTU Mig-21s

1. sell for scrap value
2. auction on e-bay to collectors worldwide
3. gate guardians at sainik schools (IAF bases probably dont want to remember them much)
4. target drones for SAM crews
5. static targets for Arjun and ZSU-23-4 crews
6. Gift to aero depts of all engineering colleges
with extra R-25 engines and testbeds also.
7. Gift to domestic & foreign museums like
visweswaraya(blore).

I am inclined to comprehensively do (6)+(7), followed by (2) to get as much $$ as possible,
then (3) and finally (1).

the _Bisons when their time comes can work as
targets.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby ptraj » 04 Sep 2003 18:37

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
[b] Future what to do with MOFTU Mig-21s

1. sell for scrap value
2. auction on e-bay to collectors worldwide
3. gate guardians at sainik schools (IAF bases probably dont want to remember them much)
4. target drones for SAM crews
5. static targets for Arjun and ZSU-23-4 crews
6. Gift to aero depts of all engineering colleges
with extra R-25 engines and testbeds also.
7. Gift to domestic & foreign museums like
visweswaraya(blore).

I am inclined to comprehensively do (6)+(7), followed by (2) to get as much $$ as possible,
then (3) and finally (1).

the _Bisons when their time comes can work as
targets.[/b]
Like cars, the MiGs are probably worth more as a catalog of parts.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Victor » 04 Sep 2003 21:34

Can't get rid of Mongols until we retire the Fishbed. They are needed for operational conversion in MiG-21 squadrons. Pilots can't go from Hawk to single-seater MiG-21 directly. It has to be Hawk->Mongol->Fishbed. The Mongols will be around for a while.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_M » 05 Sep 2003 00:50

...and place one on the IMS Vikrant's deck!

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby JCage » 11 Sep 2003 02:11

Related in a way.

Quality award for HAL
Friday, Mar 14, 2003

http://www.blonnet.com/2003/03/14/stories/2003031402550900.htm

Quality award for HAL
Our Bureau

BANGALORE: HAL has been awarded the International Arch of Europe quality award in the Gold category.

The award, presented by Madrid-based Business Initiative Directions, a group of prestigious companies and professionals, is in recognition of its commitment to quality, leadership, technology and innovation, according to a HAL release.

HAL supllies quite a few machined components,in the hundreds easily,to Airbus,Boeing,Bae etc.

This is BID's website.
http://www.bid-org.com/

Appears to specialise in Quality Assurance.

IOC is also a BID customer.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 11 Sep 2003 07:39

http://mod.nic.in/samachar/aug15-03/html/ch9.htm

Air Chief Visits EAC

Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy visited Eastern Air Command in Shillong. The CAS and Mrs Harveen Krishnaswamy, President AFWWA, on their arrival, were received by Air Marshal MB Madon, AOC-in-C, Eastern Air Command and Mrs Yasmin Madon, President AWWA (Regional).

Speaking to the mediapersons on the occasion, Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy said that security arrangements in and around the Air Force bases in the terrorist-infested North-East have been beefed up following the <U>mortar attack on Borjhar Air base recently</U>. :confused: He said that survey of all Air Force bases has been made to assess the security needs. The perimeter walls are being built and devices have been installed to monitor movements and activities in the periphery of the bases. <U>Answering the queries about MiG 21, the Air Chief said that the aircraft are airworthy to serve the Indian Air Force and would be flown as long as they have technical life. He also added that the Air Force is planning to install a special kind of transmitter in all the fighter jets for easy search operation in case of any eventuality.</U>

The Air Chief also said that the Air Force wants more representation from Noth-East. On the queries whether IAF is ready to accommodate the surrendered militants into the force, the Air Chief said that he would be happy if the guerrillas get enrolled in the IAF once they really join the mainstream.
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