Project 75 & Submarine Options

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Postby Singha » 12 Sep 2005 13:07

ATV is a SSGN design.

SSN have tremendous amount of underwater power to run anything they want. the new ones probably have a few MW of spare capacity with an eye to future.

there is no comparison. SSK are portable minefield and ambush. SSN are the true hunters, able to roam far n wide finding food and doing the top-predator thing.

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Postby Ajay K » 12 Sep 2005 13:40

Singha Posted: 12 Sep 2005 07:37 am Post subject:


ATV is a SSGN design.


Any body to second?

So you mean to say it would have vertical lanuch systems for Brahmos/Sagarika.
and the design would be of Severodvinsk class SSGN.
Correct me if wrong.
Ohio class being converted to SSGN standard also.

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Postby Philip » 12 Sep 2005 15:18

Whatever the merits of a particular AIP system over the other,the only true AIP system is a nuclear sub!The capability of a nuke powered boat far surpasses that of diesel-electric designs,but comes at a much higher cost.Conventional subs will make up the numbers.Given the IN's vast operational area,it would require several nculear subs for our strategic deterrent (at least 3),apart from SSGNs for open ocean warfare including operational areas beyond the IOR.The conventional subs are better suited for littoral warfare and in larger numbers.Our first nuclear sub,the ATV from all available (scant) info,will definitely carry a significant missile armament ( most probably a missile that can carry a nuclear warhead)apart from the usual warload of different species of "fish".

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Postby merlin » 12 Sep 2005 18:10

>>Any body to second?

There is very little info on the ATV (and most of what is there is just plain bullshit). Some reports state that its around 3000 tons displacement, while some state its 6000 tons and one report even mentioned more than 9000 tons (guess who - Rahul Bedi in one Janes article)!

In the usual Indian scenario of scope and mission creep for all things desi, it makes sense that the ATV might turn out to be a SSGN, with the usual complement of heavy weight torpedoes and some torpedo tube launched missiles (I think its unlikely that VLS will be present in the initial examples of the type). Missiles will definitely be anti-ship and perhaps some land attack ones if Indian tech is sufficiently advanced to have perfected it by the time the ATV is launched. Since we don't have enough money to have both dedicated SSN/SSGN and SSBN in the near future, some of the missiles might be also be nuclear capable. It also makes sense to perfect nuclear powered boat tech using SSN/SSGN before moving onto SSBNs.

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Postby Austin » 12 Sep 2005 21:52

Scorpene Deal Per FORCE

{url deleted by Admin: Any copyrighted article by other publisheres is not allowed on BRF. Arun_S: Admin hat on}

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Scorpene Deal finalized

Postby ajaym » 12 Sep 2005 23:51

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Postby Kakkaji » 13 Sep 2005 00:53

What is the Scorpene

How much will it cost?

The cost is yet to be officially disclosed. But according to, the six Scorpene submarines will cost approximately $4.6 billion. In 2002, it was estimated at $ 3.2 billion, but the prolonged negotiations kept pushing the price up. However, other estimates put the cost at $2 billion, with the French apparently agreeing to bear some of the brunt of inflation.

Where will they be built?

The submarines will be built with French knowhow and assistance at the Mazagon dockyard in Mumbai. The first submarine is expected to be commissioned in 2010.

The project is expected to be handled by France's Armaris, the marketing arm of state-owned DCN International, and Thales SA, one of the world's largest defence electronics firms.

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Postby Austin » 13 Sep 2005 07:59

{url deleted by Admin: Any copyrighted article by other publisheres is not allowed on BRF. Arun_S: Admin hat on}

Thats the reason I just linked it and didnt put it here , Isnt that fine too.

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Postby p_saggu » 13 Sep 2005 11:10

What missile combo would the ATV carry as of today?
The Klubs?
Agni 3?
Of all the above, only the 3M series is in existance. The undersea launched version of the Brahmos is under development.
Would the ATV carry Agni 3's? AT some point of time yes - It is supposed to be part of the Nuclear triad. That makes it a SSBN. Unless we are talking about Nuke tipped Cruise missiles.
All the systems that it is supposed to carry need to be tested and verified before it is outfitted!

Pls give the full forms of SSGN and the other SS's

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Postby Singha » 13 Sep 2005 11:42

depends whether they give the hull a traditional SSN shape or add a humpback section behind sail like a Delta-IV to permit much longer VLS.

SSN case (7m vl tubes)
torpedoes, klubs, mines thru the tubes
VL_brahmos, VL-3m14 thru the cells (8-12 cells)

Delta-IV case (10m vl tubes)
all the above
Sagarika (MRBM)
"Jatayu" (future ER-LACM)

methinks given the cost & time involved they will go for 2nd case and hope to kill 2 birds with one stone. we need a submerged deterrent more than a fleet of SSNs right now. Scorpene will be enough to police the IOR for a while. so initial ATVs could be oriented towards nuclear deterrence role.

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Postby Marcos » 13 Sep 2005 11:59

good news after sooooo long .....

So finally its gonna be the Scorpene for the ASW (more so & lighter ships) & Amur for real sea-denial for the biggies ....


India is not going to have 10-20 ATV's in 2-3 decades, so the best option is to have the PJ-10 complex floating underwater to keep anyone off from our 'area' and that will do the job as the cost will also be lower for a SSK .... and for land attack, y noy inclreas the range of 3M-14 . Its a very small missile, modifiy it and I'm pretty sure it will blaft to more than 1,500Km. So for the strike role (land) carry them in the PJ-10 silo's and that will do the job

As for the ATV .... well the Admiral who called for ATV did so to counter the N-subs which were roaming the Indian OCean and wanted to nail them .... it wasn't the Chinese subs which washis worry, but it was to counter the American subs for which the ATV was started ....

Do u analysis and do give me what u think India need to counter the Chinese threat, which is more than a decade off ....

Also do let me know, when IAF is gonna land & refuel at Diego Garcia and Indian Navy is going to have some sort of cooperation in there .... I'd be glad to hear it, as atleast we muct know the islands, the importance of which made the arse0les to almost abadon the Agni project, to the wishes of their American daddies ...

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Postby p_saggu » 13 Sep 2005 13:25

The Sagarika is a MRBM? :eek: I thought it was a LACM

If it is an MRBM is it a rechristened sub launched agni 3?

What are the chances of a mixture of sublaunched anti ship PJ 10's (VLS/ Tube) and Agni 3's MIRV (VLS) with Nukes, in addition to torpedos, mines, Klubs ?

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