Project 75 & Submarine Options

Philip
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Postby Philip » 10 May 2005 07:09

Two articles in the latest "Force" and "India Today" (Sandeep) indicate that the Scorpene may like its US counterpart ,have hit an "underwater mountain" known to submariners as the U-214!

The almost miraculous decision of the courts to absolve HDW of "kickbacks" in the "HDW scam" during Rajiv's reign,coming just hours before the final nod for the Scorpene was due,saw thie U-214 underwater mountain move with astonishing speed to intercept the Scorpene and thanks to some excellent navigation by Minister Chidambaram on behalf of the German U-boat ,the Scorpene was stopped dead in its tracks.

It now appears from the two articles that the Scorpene is dead in the water and only a miracle can save it!The Germs have supposedly come up with an "offer we can't refuse"!Not only are they offering a 10-30% price difference-which allows for great "financial flexibility" for the wheeler-dealers of our time,but also the offer of upgrading our four existing U-209s to 214 std.,something that the French cannot match.The Germs say that the can restart production work within 6 months at the Bombay facilities which have been rusting for years after the last two U-209 subs were assembled.Along with this offer comes that of fuel-cell AIP and the integration of Russian Klub missiles with the German subs.There was no mention of a Russian guarantee of this offer.

The Germs have been able to come up with this tantalising "sausage" surprise because for them there is little of technology transfer to be done!India has already paid for the German sub-tech a long time ago.The latest new U-boats are newer modified versions of the U-209 series,albeit with some significant new developments.This is why the Germans can offer such a huge "flexible" discount unlike the French offer,where we have to pay for the IP rights too.Training too become simpler as we have been using German U-boats for over two decades now.The bone in the Bratwurst has been the INs rejection of the U-boats because the German boats cannot fire missiles.This is the crucial factor.If the Germs can seduce the Russkies into agreeing for the same (Klub missiles)and also in exchange the German AIP system for the Russian "black sausages"(Amurs to be built in India)as a quid-pro-quo for the Klub capability,then the Scorpene will find a watery grave in Indian waters.It also means that the Pakis can now acquire Scorpenes at a later date after their run of Agosta-90s is over.

This underwater battle bewteen the two European sub manufacturers has only delayed the IN acquiring desperately needed subs for the future.I anticipate that this issue of Russian help for the U-boats will be a topic of discussion in Moscow between the Indian and Russian delgations on defence.A Russian nod would be likely only after we sign the IP agreement with it,which itself has been delayed.However,with more sales of Klubs to India and the German AIP fuel-cell system available to the Russians,which could see good sales of Amurs in the future,the Russian nod is only a matter of time as they coul inist on India first signing a deal for Amurs-safeguarding their interests.While the Scorpene may be sinking fast,it could still survive if the French can work out an imaginative financial package involving other defence eqpt. like Mirage sales,etc.

Perhaps the only sub deal that we can be sure of at this moment is that of Brahmos equipped Amurs to be built in India at some point of time ,for which there would be no controversy.Nevertheless,I can hear vigorous practising of that great German martial song,"Deutschland,Deutschland Uber Alles...."

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Postby rajivg » 10 May 2005 07:50

Philip,

Its nice to know that the super-duper Harvard economics professor is now making technical decisions for the Indian Navy and Defence Ministry! HDW it is. Deutschland Uber Alles! The Scorpenes are history and the Frenchies will have no apprehension to sell to the Pakis - since they are upset with the Boeing deal and know there is no capex money for the 126 MK2-5 for the next couple of years.

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Postby narmad » 10 May 2005 11:37

Hi
The German U-214 Clubbed with the Russin Klub missile is the best offer on the table right now. With the upgrades it’s untouchable I suppose.
If the Russians can trade/barter or wotever the Klub missiles for the German fuel cell AIP for the Amurs that would solve major maintenance problems for the navy.
Wot i want to know is that the Klubs would be fired from the torpedo tubes or would the germans would provide with VLS for the U-214.
How much would such a change effect the submarine parameters?
I read somewhere that there was also a 3M-14E Klub version.
IS the navy in possession of these missiles?

Rajivg
Well if the finance ministers decision sounds logical then the navy should accept it.
The Scorpene to be used as a future N-plant hull design for the Indian ATVs sounds
farfetched. I wonder why the navy is promoting so much for the scorpene.
Is the scorpene better in the tropical waters than the U-214?
(well u never know wot the final config of the Scorpene or U-214 for the IN would be, but still )
The French can get the MRCA deal and be happy with it.


BTW this is a great forum with good posters and very good moderators.

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Postby marimuthu » 10 May 2005 13:32

By any chance anybody knows what is the status of india's own ATV project?

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Postby John » 10 May 2005 18:12

The Scorpene to be used as a future N-plant hull design for the Indian ATVs sounds
farfetched. I wonder why the navy is promoting so much for the scorpene.
Is the scorpene better in the tropical waters than the U-214?

primarily because scorpene can fire SM-39 marketed by mbda, were as HDW cant offer any sub launched missile as part of the package with U-214.

If the Russians can trade/barter or wotever the Klub missiles for the German fuel cell AIP for the Amurs that would solve major maintenance problems for the navy.
Wot i want to know is that the Klubs would be fired from the torpedo tubes or would the germans would provide with VLS for the U-214.


Its for tube launched klub missiles. Either way its too many ifs, i dont know how hdw thinks it can convinence russians to assist just by allowing russians its AIP. HDW doesnt have much bargaining power because russians know that HDW will sell AIP for amur whether or not they agree to integrate Klub for U-214, chances are if they integrate klub for U-214 will equal less or no Amur sales.

And not to mention with recent signing of royaltt agreement with russia we also have share some royalty with russians for any such retrofiting of klub onto P-75 :roll: and not mention we cant ourself try to reverse engineer klub for U-214 or scorpene.

Personally i dont see this procurment of scorpene/u-214 going anywhere it will probably be stuck in limbo for couple years with navy arguing for scorpene while congress pushing for u-214.

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Postby narmad » 10 May 2005 20:11

John

primarily because scorpene can fire SM-39 marketed by mbda, were as HDW cant offer any sub launched missile as part of the package with U-214.


Just one question.
Cant we have the U-214 as a prominantly hunter killer submarine to counter the pak and chinese threats.
How much the possession/absense of missile firing cabapility in a submarine effect this role

The AMURS can handle the anti ship submarine role.
Thanks

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Postby Rakesh » 11 May 2005 02:31

A slightly dated article, but interesting nonetheless.

US tells India, drop dead

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Postby Rangudu » 11 May 2005 03:17

:rotfl:

Philip's post above is a classic. What a humorous way to describe IN's desperate dilemma and the govt's irresponsibility.

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Postby SaiK » 11 May 2005 04:10

since the french has already pulled out of eurofighter eu2ks, the can give a combined offer for the 126 mrcas with a powerful deal for eu2ks+u214. wonder how much tech transfer they can do [but the migs might backoff and they might even disrupt the klub offer if clubed]. interesting scenario though.. if it works well, upa-baboos will take the credit having destroyed the french.

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Postby abrahavt » 11 May 2005 06:28

Anyone know if the subs the Germans made for israel had tube launched or VLS? Maybe we can get the Germans to modify their subs to fire Brahmos. VLS Brahmos from the German subs with fuels cells would be way cool. No need for the Russians to be involved. We can strike a seperate deal with them for the Amurs. The French can bankrupt the Pukes by selling their expensive scorpenes to them.

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Postby NRao » 11 May 2005 06:30

IMHO, we need to dig a very deep hole and burry this French vs. German vs. Russian thought processes.

There is nothing to prevent India from incoporating techs from various countries. IIRC, it was Germany that proposed the inclusion of the Russian missile systems in the case of the 214. We already have enough products that have been thru' much of these battles: MKI, the tankers and currently the Phalcons. Puch for it hard enough and we will get what we want.

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Postby Ujjal » 11 May 2005 07:45

SA's new 209?

In addition, 20 officers were undergoing submarine combat and engineering training in India, with progress reports indicating they were doing "extremely well", Mudimu said.

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Postby narmad » 11 May 2005 20:37

Can anybody please help me understand this scenario.

If a submarine is to be used predominantly in the hunter killer mode, how will the presence of missiles help the cause? How would it affect our sea denial capability, if the U214s do not have the missiles? Thanks.

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Postby SaiK » 11 May 2005 20:47

U214 specs says a diving depth of 400 meters. whereas our own ATV has only 300 meters. may i know why?

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Postby John » 11 May 2005 21:01

SaiK, because the data is just speculation construction hasnt even begun yet there is been rumours that it will be around 10000 tons not 6000 as reported.


narmad
Using SSKs for ASW is bit questionable, there is really no choke points like canal we can place our SSKs and wait for tsp ones to have to come by. I dont really expect tsp subs to launch head on attack on the IN fleet rather be used to harass merchant vessels. So we can pretty much expect agosta to be anywere in arabian sea which is over 300,000 sq kms having to find them with U-214 is next to impossible because of their speed.

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Postby Philip » 12 May 2005 07:26

ASW versions of the Klub missile are a force multiplier in underwater warfare.The Klub equipped sub however,has to have an array of sonars able to detect the enemy sub at a range commensurate with the missile's capabilities.The sub could also receive communications from other assets of the task force and launch a missile at coordinates provided,but it would mean that the sub would have to have its communications eqpt. used more frequently and risking detection.However,the Russians would never have developed the ASW version of the KLUB if it was not advantageous to their subs!

U-boats armed only with torpedoes would swiftly decline in capability as a whole new generation of conventional subs are appearing,which can fire missiles both from tubes as well as VLS complexes.If German "sausages "are to be bought,then they must come with missiles,the Klub family being the preferred option.

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Postby Austin » 12 May 2005 08:35

U214 specs says a diving depth of 400 meters. whereas our own ATV has only 300 meters. may i know why?


Depends on the material used to manufacture the hull of the sub , a HLES 80 steel is rated at a diving depth of more than 300m and a HLES 100 is rated for a diving depth of 600 m

We dont know what material the ATV will use , But If Russia assistance is any indication than its quite possible ATV should be able to dive at depths of 600m.

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Postby saty » 12 May 2005 10:39

John wrote:I dont really expect tsp subs to launch head on attack on the IN fleet rather be used to harass merchant vessels.


This despite the fact that it precisily for this purpose they have been used in the previous wars ? To keep IN bottled up in harbour's!!

Do you really think Paki's have really learnt their lessons?

Submarines in the subcontinent scenario are way to expensive to be wasted on anti-merchant shipping operation, their primary role is to harrass the IN, since they cant match us in Sea control, they want sea denial.

Very standard operation rules.

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Postby AjayB » 13 May 2005 00:17

abrahavt wrote:Anyone know if the subs the Germans made for israel had tube launched or VLS? Maybe we can get the Germans to modify their subs to fire Brahmos. VLS Brahmos from the German subs with fuels cells would be way cool. No need for the Russians to be involved. We can strike a seperate deal with them for the Amurs. The French can bankrupt the Pukes by selling their expensive scorpenes to them.


brahmos has a lot of russian stake in it. So will the russians let the germans even come near the brahmos integration/technology. After all brahmos can be the USP(unique selling point) for Amurs and that too not only to india. After all both parties will need to agree on any such integration.

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Postby John » 13 May 2005 01:27

saty wrote:
John wrote:I dont really expect tsp subs to launch head on attack on the IN fleet rather be used to harass merchant vessels.


This despite the fact that it precisily for this purpose they have been used in the previous wars ? To keep IN bottled up in harbour's!!

Do you really think Paki's have really learnt their lessons?

Submarines in the subcontinent scenario are way to expensive to be wasted on anti-merchant shipping operation, their primary role is to harrass the IN, since they cant match us in Sea control, they want sea denial.

Very standard operation rules.

Because that strategy employed in 71 of sending those subs to mine IN harbors didnt exactly lead to victory in fact they lost sub in that process. Also IN asw capabilities were quite limited back then.
As for subs being too expensive that exactly the point by sinking merchant vessels they can cause quite a large damage to Indian economy (sink a few oil tankers and you can do billion dollars worth of a damage).

But considering how expensive agostas are its not worth it to go after IN or Coast guard vessels, any such attack would expose your position and would result in lose of the submarine. Only vessel that pakistan might go after is viraat everything else costs less than agosta 90B.

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Postby Philip » 13 May 2005 06:52

The size of Brahmos makes it vitually impossible for it to be launched from tubes.There is also little chance that a German U-boat will be handed over the Brahmos VLS sytem for anything but a massive royalty,which would make the price of the sub probably far exceed that of the Scorpene!That is the stark reality.Brahmos will be fitted only on Russian dsigned subs and Indian indigenous designs.If Russian missiles are to be fired from Greman U-boats,then the Klub is the probable candidate.However,the Russians may very well take the Germans to the cleaners regarding the price,which would not benefit the IN in any way.The Russians also have their own fuel-cell design to peddle.Unless these absolutely crucial matters are ironed out satisfactorily,the IN's sub fleet will dramatically decline and we will be be in a watery soup in the near future.

If the GOI is all tied up in knots over the Scorpene vs the U-214 issue,then an immediate decision should be taken to produce the Amur and start the second line of production first for which there is little controversy,as L&T are su[pposedly going to build the sub in India.Amurs armed with Klubs,Brahmos and a range of torpedoes,including the Shkval rocket torpedo would eb the most heavily armed conventional subs on the planet!This would also help speed up delivery of the two Akulas and the Backfires,which would be of great relief to the IN.Later on,after going through all the merits of the case,the western designed sub could be chosen.

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Postby NRao » 13 May 2005 07:37

Hhmmmm....

We have come full circle, hav'nt we. RU -> FR -> GR -> GR+RU(?) -> RU. To placate the RUians, Amurs it is. To start with.
BTW, Bhramos has Indian intellectual props in it too. That should count for something I would imagine.

Just for kicks:
Now, Uncle can make the sky fall if he tosses a LA class with the F-18. The French can make their money selling to the Chicoms and Pakis (with US and drug money).

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Postby Austin » 13 May 2005 07:51

Well The Bottom Line is If the Indian Navy wants the Scorpene over the HDW-214 over technical grounds , They will get it , No finance minister can over rule a service decision , or else he would be labbled by many names and then Opposition will charge and say there is corruption in the deal etc.

The Only was HDW can come back is to provide technically and TOT of better subs and financially attractive package and the Navy should be convinced about it.

At the moment the Navy is behind the Scorpene and no FM can over rule it at best they can delay it .

Talking about Agosta-90B they are the best in this part of the world , better than what IN has as of now , If war errupts its quite likely that they will go for Viraat or Groshkov , IN will have to devote a large asset to protect its CBG , and with good subs around like agosta-90B there is always a 50-50 chance of making it.

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Postby saty » 13 May 2005 10:16

John wrote:Because that strategy employed in 71 of sending those subs to mine IN harbors didnt exactly lead to victory in fact they lost sub in that process.


Yes, but then you are assuming pakistani's would have learnt their lessons, given the fact that Pakistani's really havent learnt anything at all in 50 years, I dare say you overestimate them :-).

Also hitting merchant shipping is not easy, for other reasons.

So you hit a oil tanker. Who owns the tanker? Where do you hit it in open sea's or in India's EEZ? Are you sure it is not a tanker on its way to Japan happening to pass through India for some pressing techincal reason :-)

Indo-pak war in not a world war II where germans could hit everything moving in england's direction :-).

You dont want to piss off other countries, so if the tanker is lost who really losses ?

well lets say worst case India does not get one or two shipments is that so bad ? The billions of dollor loss is actually for the insurers, Britain and US are not going to be happy about Pakistan sending Loylds to the cleaners :-)

Me thinks they will aim for high value military targets....

Carriers, just like Austin and you have also said, but I think they will also patrol waters around Pakistan making sure if a Delhi comes around trying a repeat of 71. They can sink them, before they reach Gawdar or karachi hitting range.

As I said last more to ensure that if India stretchs its arm to far forward it can hit back, deny the control of sea to IN to ensure that pakistan is not blockaded thorugh sea. Like in 71 and more recently kargil.

Also as far as I know :
We have to also keep in mind that PN chose to focus on submarines (by spending more money there) at the cost of surface fleet.

They would not want hurt their conventional Naval might against IN just to go after Mercheant shipping correct?

They would do however this to be able to pratise sea denial, because they know they cant match IN if they get into a sea control exercise.

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Postby Rakesh » 14 May 2005 01:52

NRao wrote:Hhmmmm....We have come full circle, hav'nt we. RU -> FR -> GR -> GR+RU(?) -> RU.


LOL....well put, but could very well end up happening. Having said that the Amur is no slouch either. A Klub/Brahmos euipped Amur would certainly be a formidable combination.

NRao wrote:Now, Uncle can make the sky fall if he tosses a LA class with the F-18. The French can make their money selling to the Chicoms and Pakis (with US and drug money).


If Uncle wants to make us into a superpower, tell them to give us a 10 year lease on a Virginia Class boat :twisted: Okay that was a joke, for all you folks who are slow!

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Postby John » 14 May 2005 03:14

Philip wrote:The size of Brahmos makes it vitually impossible for it to be launched from tubes.There is also little chance that a German U-boat will be handed over the Brahmos VLS sytem for anything but a massive royalty,which would make the price of the sub probably far exceed that of the Scorpene!That is the stark reality.Brahmos will be fitted only on Russian dsigned subs and Indian indigenous designs.If Russian missiles are to be fired from Greman U-boats,then the Klub is the probable candidate.However,the Russians may very well take the Germans to the cleaners regarding the price,which would not benefit the IN in any way.The Russians also have their own fuel-cell design to peddle.Unless these absolutely crucial matters are ironed out satisfactorily,the IN's sub fleet will dramatically decline and we will be be in a watery soup in the near future.

yakhont can be fired from 25" tubes but there is no plans to spend $$ to devolop a torp tube launched brahmos so its limited to vls for submarine purpose. Considering political condition with unkil even offering P-8s,Patriots a offer for sub launched harpoon for the U-214 isnt totally out of question (as a added bonus unkil also gets to spoil dcn/french $$$). I think we should demand harpoon as part of any agreement to purchase P-3Cs.

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Postby dinesha » 14 May 2005 16:59

Scorpene In Rough Sea
Crosspost from AFM
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42627

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Postby NRao » 14 May 2005 20:19

The Force article spells MKI as clearly as possible, IMHO.

Tech'lly, what could sink the 214? (No, I am in no camp - since I do not know subs at all.) Ouside of the IN "wanting" the scorps that is.

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Postby Philip » 15 May 2005 08:06

The Scorpene's sting is in its torpedoes,apart from sub-launched new versions of Exocet.The Black Shark wake homing torpedo is supposed to have a range of 50km and a speed of 50kts.No wonder that the IN is so keen to get this sub.

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Postby Austin » 15 May 2005 08:37

Scorpene has many good qualities, The Navy wants the Scorpene over other subs namely U-214 , They will get the scorpene earlier or later.

But if the entry of U-214 helps reduce the cost in any way then there is no harm in waiting for a while , I am sure with the entry of U-214 the french would be very anxious so as to not let the Euro 3.5 Billion deal pass out from its hand so easily and will add some sweetner to the deal.

Lets hope the Navy gets what it wants.

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Postby dwaipayan » 15 May 2005 11:28

If a naval war breaks out between Indian and Pakistan at present, Indina Navy will fail to enforce a naval blockade on Pakistan like 1971. Except for the some kilo class submarines which have recently been retrofitted, most of Indian submarines are ageing and lack missile submarine capability. I am not sure if the Kilo class submarines can stay submerged more than the AIP enabled Agosta. The type 209 Shishumar Class submarines may not match with the latest Agosta. Though the IN can outnumber the PN with quantity( 14 submarines ), leaving out 2 Foxtrot class Submarine which should have been decommissioned a decade ago. I very much doubt if the IN can enforce a sea denial situaton on PN. The only silver lining is that the IN has better anti-submarine capability. IN detected Los Angeles class submarine with its indigeneous sonar USHA ( for which Dr. V. K. Atre , the former DRDO director was instrumental ) in one of the last Malabar class exercises. So, Agosta can detected too. But PN has better naval reconaissance plane like P3Cs.

Unless the Babus and the Defence Planner makes an outright decision as to what type of submarines are to procured, I don't see IN to be having any chances of emerging as a blue water navy. Decision making has cost not only the Indian navy but also the IAF getting better military hardware.

As for an example, in the mid or late 80s, Indian Air Force was undecided whether to acquire the licene for Mirage 2000 or Mig 29, resulting in not builing none of these two planes on license. Had thoses planes been manufactured on licence, Mig 21 could've have been phased out much earlier, thus saving the lives of so many young pilots and avoiding the Mig-21 getting the sobriquet "Flying Coffin". The same situation applies to Indian Navy which has neigher been able to acquiere either a N-Submarine on permanent basis or develop its own ATV.

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Postby Austin » 15 May 2005 11:59

The Agosta-90B is superior to either the Kilo or the T-209 , Infact the Paki had paid the French a huge sum to make the Agosta-90B much superior ( Silencing , Combat System & Torp ) to what the IN have .

Yes the AIP should make the Agosta-90B stay under water much longer time,

The only thing where the PN sub fleet lack is their sub launched missile system , the Klub is far better then what PN has as of now , But things will get better for PN when they acquire the Block-II Harpoon

I hope the Babus & Netas wake up from the sleep and take quick decision on the P-75 .

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Postby NRao » 15 May 2005 16:39

Fine and dandy.

Answer this question ( a theoritical one granted): What is preventing India from building a far superior sub to any of them out there based on what teh Germans have offered? Is it time, money, a country getting in the way by not parting with a tech that India wants, what? Calculated speculation is what I seek.

TSP can pay France $$ and have them design/build a great sub, and the best we can do is argue that the Scorp has this and that?

Unless I am missing something, I clearly see a chance for India to get Germany, France and Russia to help built India a fantastic sub - better than the Scorp itself (assuming the Scorp is better than the Agosta-90B that TSP has). Time, IMHO is an issue, all else is there.

Am I missing something?

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Postby Neethan » 15 May 2005 17:07

the scorpenes will give us only a slight edge over the pakistan navy, but looking at the u212 the AIP is far more advanced, and its highly integrated with advanced command and weapon control system according to naval technology web page. The u214 the indian are getting are even more advanced with increased diving depth and four of the eight torpedo tubes can fire missiles. The u214 looks like the su30mki of the ocean:
just a few of the companies that have co-developed it are BAE systems(british), Thales(french), STN ATLAS electronik(french I think),EADS,so its
British, German, and french, our requirments will involve india and probably the russians as well!!

The scorpenes are not that different to the agostas by a great deal unless you want to believe that they are ie: stealthier hmmm!!

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Postby abrahavt » 15 May 2005 18:24

What does the scorpene offer that is superior to the german boats especially if the germans are willing to MK ise the boats to Indian specs. Provided the Russians are willing to play ball, an MKised german boat with Fuel Cells and klubs would be a better bet, not to mention cheaper to procure and a smaller learning curve. The germans worked with israel to modify their boats to fire missiles. Maybe we should consult with the israelis too. An Mki sed boat would teach us a lot when we get around to building our own boat.

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Postby Rangudu » 15 May 2005 18:34

Any MK HDW will take 5-6 years or more to get to the final product. We don't have the time. Unless that is IN wants to be oaky with losing its undersea edge for about a decade.

Let's face it - as things stand today, we cannot afford to take a carrier to war for there is a good chance that it will become a sitting duck to PN Agostas, which are the best subs in this part of the world. That combine with the 8 or so P-3Cs will put a big hole in IN's power.

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Postby abrahavt » 15 May 2005 19:36

Sure the Augostas are a threat but I think the IN has enough ASW assets to keep the couple that they possess at bay the next few years.

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Postby Rangudu » 15 May 2005 19:57

AbhravT,

TSP will get the third one soon and with Uncle's bribes it could afford to build more quickly.

Our MPAs suck and our subs are aging. Not a good position to be in. A powerful surface component without ASW and hunter-killer subs is just asking for trouble and a loss of face.

NRao
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Postby NRao » 15 May 2005 20:21

OK let us straigten this out.

* 2 - 3 Agosta-90B (+) can put a major dent in the IN. (That calls for an :eek: - hard to believe that we let that one slide that far out.)
* Indian MPA "sucks". (Hmmm......)
(That bad eh?)

* In what way would a Scorp in 2006/7/8 help the IN? The fact that TSP will still have the Agosta-90B + 8 or so P-3Cs and India will have MPAs that suck is a common denominator.
* IF the Agosta-90Bs are such a threat, is the IN investing in something better than the P-3Cs - long term that is? (Just curious)

Just some other thoughts (from a green submariner):
* Germany MUST be having a very good picture of what the IN needs are
* Germans have very good experience with mdifications to their subs (as stated in other posts above), and
* The Germans have stated that they can get the manufacturing started in 6 months. I would venture to guess that they know what they are doing and will deliver the product on time. IMHO, it is up to Indians - the wheels need to start moving (in either direction). (I do not see the problem being in either the court of the French or the Germans.)

Cybaru
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Postby Cybaru » 15 May 2005 21:29

Whatever you say about subtics and all... The AIP modules of U214 are far better than the noisy MESMA... Its possible that MESMA might be able to support higher hotel loads, but noise is going to be an issue with that diesel engine running to provide the needs.

AIPs output is going to increase as time goes by...
MESMA is probably going to be stuck or have marginal growth at best.

Might be able to stretch the 214s for Indian design and add more AIP modules in there and possibly work on more weapons carrying capacity as well...

I presume IN wants subtics or some other component for its ATV line...
Its a good idea, get RU and HDW to sit on table and work out modalities and send a final agreed on proposal now so that cr@p like IPR doesnt come into play later and work on both sub designs starting pretty soon.


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