Project 75 & Submarine Options

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Postby John » 15 May 2005 21:43

saty wrote:
John wrote:Because that strategy employed in 71 of sending those subs to mine IN harbors didnt exactly lead to victory in fact they lost sub in that process.


Yes, but then you are assuming pakistani's would have learnt their lessons, given the fact that Pakistani's really havent learnt anything at all in 50 years, I dare say you overestimate them :-).

Also hitting merchant shipping is not easy, for other reasons.

thats what major consensus was among naval anaylsts on what pakistan will do agosta in case of war like brookings institute. With standoff weapons like brahmos and klub we dont need to send osa dangerously close to karachi lke it was done in 71. As i said before agosta 90b is worth more than any of our surface combatant not to mention PN has only 2 so its highly unlikely they will send it in suicide run.

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Postby NRao » 16 May 2005 05:49

John,

What in IN would make "send it in suicide run"?

Also, I recall you had made a statement abt why teh Scorps - because the 214 could not do something that the Scorp could - I looked at other posts, but could not find it.

Thx.

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Postby dwaipayan » 16 May 2005 11:29

I have a solution for the Indian Navy.

1 ) Acquire the Scorpens from the French, after forcing them to cut donw the price and making them take a vow that they won't sell a single submarine to the Pakis and provide hlep to India in the war scenario about how to detect the Agosta.

2 ) Continue negotiation with the Germans about procuring type 214 and finally start manufacture them in MDL with the integration of Russin Klub Missiles.

3 ) Also acquire Amur with the AIP and produce them at MDL

4 ) Design an Indigenous Submarine under Project 75 or 76 whatever is projected on papers and build it amalgamating the 3 aforementioned submarines's technology.

4 ) I dont' know when ATV would fructiy. If it does, it ia a bonus to the IN's submarine

5 ) Finally acquire 2 Akula II ( either on lease or puraches ). One of eastern part and the second one for the western

I might be taunted by others for dreaming something herculean. But there is no other alternative than this mentioned above.

Implementing my solution might cost a lot of money for Indian Government. But in the long run, who will make the last laugh ? Indian Navy. It will not only kick the ass of the PN, but also keep the marauding flat-nosed Chinese at bay and Indian Navy will truly emerge as a blue water navy.

Dwaipayan.

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Postby ramana » 16 May 2005 19:10

SAAG commentary: ACQUIRING SUBMARINES FROM SALE RIVALS: The Need for a Relook at the HDW Submarines

....As regards the fact that Pakistan navy is the only enemy force against which the Indian navy is currently pitted against, it is not advisable to possess submarines from the same supplier. In this case the DCN may have agreed not to sell the Scorpene to Pakistan as has been promised to the Pakistan navy that it would not sell the Agosta- 90B to India, but it is possible for the adversary to understand the exploitation doctrine of each others submarine.

Besides, there already exists the infrastructure and assembly line including trained human resource that built the Type 209 Shishumar class submarines. It would be a great folly to allow this trained human resource of technicians and builders to be left to decay and building a new set of technical experts that would involve greater fiscal resources. At the same time it is advisable to stick to one source and prevent such a wide inventory, especially since HDW and DCN are sales rivals.

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Postby Neethan » 16 May 2005 21:39

What looks apparent here is the ability of pakistan to easily knock out indias hdw subs, !! The kilos don't have AIPs but are the quietest submarines in the world, so the Kilos have 20 days to do any damage to the agostas, this is probable, since there are 12 subs on our side and three on theres so one kilo can resurface safely at any one time that is not a problem. The chances are that india will upgrade their HDWs, and have additional subs with even more advanced sensors and stealth features on the U 214 Type this greatly lowers the chances of pakistan easily taking out HDWs.

India:
Lets see here: 1) Advanced HDW about 6 - 10 subs with stealth features and advanced sensors(2 -3 upgraded with AIP and advanced sensors in three years) it may take longer

2) Upgraded kilos with 220km missile launching capability and improved Asw features. 8- 12 subs remember no AIP so the HDW will have to cover their backs.
3) Nuclear powered subs ATV?
4) Experience a lot of it


Pakistan

1)Three Agostas with advanced sensors, stealth, missile firing capability and p3c orions.
2) self belief

I think the pakistanis are financially broke and lack the ability to maintain or build anything in comparison to what the indians have. alteast for the next 8years you can count on it!!
Last edited by Neethan on 16 May 2005 21:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby John » 16 May 2005 21:42

NRao wrote:John,

What in IN would make "send it in suicide run"?

Also, I recall you had made a statement abt why teh Scorps - because the 214 could not do something that the Scorp could - I looked at other posts, but could not find it.

Thx.

If it were to attack head on, it would be detected a SSK moving at 8 knots wont exactly be able to avoid outrun once that happens. SSKs strengths are conducting ambushes in shallow waters.
As for what i said earliar is it the exocet issue?

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Postby NRao » 16 May 2005 22:02

John,

IIRC, it was related to the inability of the 214 to deal with missiles or the Scorps to deal with them.

Others,

BTW, why are TSPs P-3Cs a problem? Could not the MKIs keep them on land (and with a Brahmos in a brown bag, much of the rest of the TSPian ships too)?

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Postby John » 18 May 2005 00:36

IIRC, it was related to the inability of the 214 to deal with missiles or the Scorps to deal with them.

what do u mean by that like countermeasures?


BTW, why are TSPs P-3Cs a problem? Could not the MKIs keep them on land (and with a Brahmos in a brown bag, much of the rest of the TSPian ships too)?

thats why many in PN arent too thrilled with P-3C deal apart from the fact that they are P-3C-Is (which are even inferior to what pakistan already operates). Pakistan has few airfields capable of handing it, orginal 3 P-3 were kept expensive to maintain (PN actually junked 2 of those to save $$) and they dont really need ASW capabilities. They see it as more of attempt by unkil for PN to help USN to deal with IN or even PLAN.

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Postby Igorr » 28 May 2005 13:40


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Postby Marcos » 28 May 2005 22:01

Russia Launches Project 677 submarine

JNI December-2004
By Richard Scott

Russia Launches Project 677 submarine
JNI December-2004
By Richard Scott

The first Project 677 'Lada'-class diesel-electric submarine has been formally launched from the Admiralty Shipyard in St Petersburg.

Named Sankt Peterburg in honour of the 300th anniversary of the founding of its namesake city, the submarine was launched into the River Neva on 28 October aboard a floating dock.Following test and acceptance activities , formal commisioning in to the Russian Federation Navy is expected in the second half of 2005 (now its commisioned)

Designed by the Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marien Engineering (CDBME) , the 1,765 tonne submerged displacement Project 677 ,( known as Amur in export derivative ) represent the fourth generation of Russian Conventional submarines. Laid down in december 1997, Sankt Peterburgs completion has been repeatedly delayed by funding shortages and more recently by equipment acceptance issues and revision of certain safety aspects. A second unit , an Amur 1650 export varaint, is awaiting funds for its completion at the Admiralty Shipyard.

Displacing 1,765 tonnes standard and 66.8m in length overall , the Project 677 design is somewhat smaller than the third-generation Project 636 'KILO' -class design. Distinguished by Fin Mounted hydroplanes and cruciform control surfaces aft, it also differs from "Kilo" in its adoption of a single-hull design. Construction is from AB-2 steel ( for a max diving depth of 250 m)

According to data released by Rubin CDBME, Sankt Peterburg has a maximum submerged and surface speeds of 21 Kt and 10 kt respectively. Submerged range at 3 kt will be 650 n miles with a maximum submerged endurance of 10 days. Cruising range under diesel power ( while snorkelling ) is put at 6000 n miles.

The Rubin CDBME said that refinements in "hullform, vibration supression and acoustic (hull) coating make the Project 677 three times quiter than Project 636" . It added that much reduced self noise , combined with a new integrated sonar suite , will enable early detection of surface ships and untra-quite submarines at long ranges".

Developed by Morphyspribor , the integrated sonar suite combines bow-mounted and towed arrays, plus separate intercept and mine avoidance arrays, under water telephones, noise-monitoring sensors and velocity and range measurement systems.

The Avrora Science and Production corporation has led the development of the Project 677 combat control system. The main control room accommodates all combat management and platform control functions, which interface with the common data transfer system. The Dual Workstation combat information control system and interfaces to weapon and countermeasures discharge management units on a seperate weapon control bus.

Another first for the Project 677 is the incorporation of a non-hull-penetrating optronic search mast , supplied by Elektropribor , in place of conventional search periscope. A conventional attack periscope is retained.

The submerged endurance mentioned there is w/o the AIP, which means that the battery power (and lower tonnage) have increased considerably which makes the sub to be submerged for a contineous for 10 days.

I want to know whats the submerged endurance for U-212/214 & Scorpene

Raj & others, I will rep to ur quotes later ....

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Postby pauldevis » 29 May 2005 00:25

NRao wrote:Others,

BTW, why are TSPs P-3Cs a problem? Could not the MKIs keep them on land (and with a Brahmos in a brown bag, much of the rest of the TSPian ships too)?


The problem with TSP's P - 3c's may not be during war time but during peace time. How much intelligence would they be able to capture on our ship/sub movements ? How hard would it for our subs to hang around Karachi after they are delivered ?How much would they learn of our operating procedures ?

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Postby Shankar » 29 May 2005 11:38

Pakistani P-3 orions are a significant threat to all indian ships both naval and commercial . Their harpoons can easily be used against a destroyer as an oil tanker or a bulk carrier . Taking out an orion is no problem even the mig 21 s or the hawks wil be able to do it bigger problem is pakistan may deploy them on the gulf oil routes where providing continious air coverage by air superiority aircraft like mig 29s 0r su-30 s may have its own logistical and aircraft endurance limitations . Alternatively the orions can launch harpoons from inside pak airspace to indian naval ships on offensive patrol or blocade duty. Regarding the anti submarine capability of orion which is a bigger threat to navy we cannot possibly provide a continious air escort to all the kilos moving in and around paki coast line simply because it is not practical and defeats the very basic advantge of the stealthy offensive capability generated by a sielent sub . Orions are best taken care of in a coordinated pre emptive strike just before hostilities break out or keeping constant survilance on them during peace time thru phalcon /su-30 both on ground and in air along with a bigger air defense response zone around in ships at all times like they do for the carriers.

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Postby Igorr » 30 May 2005 21:04

Marcos wrote:The submerged endurance mentioned there is w/o the AIP, which means that the battery power (and lower tonnage) have increased considerably which makes the sub to be submerged for a contineous for 10 days.

I want to know whats the submerged endurance for U-212/214 & Scorpene.


- Two weeks for U-214 with AIP - not much different from Amur without...
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/

The "fuel cells" – is not more than electrical battery using H2 and O2 instead the metal and acid. You can take one big battery in place of the fuel cell and the battery - with the same effect. It is may be even better, because of the battery you can recharge in the sea without enter the port. Image

Look here for very detailed information about the principles of AIP:
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno ... ulsion.htm

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Postby Ashwin » 30 May 2005 23:37

I wouldn't mind going for the U-214 and scrapping the scorpene deal , if pak does go for 3 more agostas .

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Postby NRao » 31 May 2005 08:17

The problem with TSP's P - 3c's may not be during war time but during peace time......


Hmmmm...........

Any other issues?

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Postby John » 01 Jun 2005 20:06

Shankar wrote:Pakistani P-3 orions are a significant threat to all indian ships both naval and commercial . Their harpoons can easily be used against a destroyer as an oil tanker or a bulk carrier . Taking out an orion is no problem even the mig 21 s or the hawks wil be able to do it bigger problem is pakistan may deploy them on the gulf oil routes where providing continious air coverage by air superiority aircraft like mig 29s 0r su-30 s may have its own logistical and aircraft endurance limitations . Alternatively the orions can launch harpoons from inside pak airspace to indian naval ships on offensive patrol or blocade duty. Regarding the anti submarine capability of orion which is a bigger threat to navy we cannot possibly provide a continious air escort to all the kilos moving in and around paki coast line simply because it is not practical and defeats the very basic advantge of the stealthy offensive capability generated by a sielent sub . Orions are best taken care of in a coordinated pre emptive strike just before hostilities break out or keeping constant survilance on them during peace time thru phalcon /su-30 both on ground and in air along with a bigger air defense response zone around in ships at all times like they do for the carriers.

8 orion's PN is procuring arent as capable as the earliar 3 they used to operate. As for orion threat it considerable but IN should be prepared to face that it was couple years back and pakistan only has around couple dozen air launched harpoons.

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Postby Vick » 01 Jun 2005 20:24

The PN got a new batch of 100+ Harpoons, including air launched ones, recently.

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Postby John » 01 Jun 2005 20:50

Vick wrote:The PN got a new batch of 100+ Harpoons, including air launched ones, recently.

actually the current deal is 40 AGM-84l (20 RGM-84L for 180 million) and 28 AGM-84A were supplied in 1996.

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Postby NRao » 01 Jun 2005 21:11

Could the AGM-84s be launched from teh Agutos?

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Postby John » 01 Jun 2005 23:13

NRao wrote:Could the AGM-84s be launched from teh Agutos?

nope they lack the booster not even sure if F-16C/D if pakistan procures it will be able to launch AGM-84 (only RoCAF F-16s to my knowledge is the only AF that has launched harpoon).

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Postby Marcos » 03 Jun 2005 20:51

Austin wrote:
U214 specs says a diving depth of 400 meters. whereas our own ATV has only 300 meters. may i know why?


Depends on the material used to manufacture the hull of the sub , a HLES 80 steel is rated at a diving depth of more than 300m and a HLES 100 is rated for a diving depth of 600 m

We dont know what material the ATV will use , But If Russia assistance is any indication than its quite possible ATV should be able to dive at depths of 600m.

well the diving depth varies on many thinbgs, i am not sure abt what all.....

The Seawolf uses HY-100 steel and is rated for 500m of depth. And the only other submarine that uses or was to use the HY-100 steel was the dutch Moray class submarines, which was also to use the Swedish Sterling engines as the AIP.

the Russian subs are usually HY-80 steel, i guess the Shuka-B (Bars/Akula-II) uses HY-80 or maybe a mix of Titanium (not sure) but they are rated for a depth of 600m ..... so its my guess that HY-80 can go further down and HY-100 even further. But since HY-80 is cheaper than HY-100, many stick to HY-80 (scropene etc) , so the diving depth also has to do with the capacity of the ballast tank and how much water it can take in which also determines the maximum diving depth of the submarine.

as for the ATV, i put my faith on the Severodvinsk class.


dwaipayan,

I have a solution for the Indian Navy.

1 ) Acquire the Scorpens from the French, after forcing them to cut donw the price and making them take a vow that they won't sell a single submarine to the Pakis and provide hlep to India in the war scenario about how to detect the Agosta.

2 ) Continue negotiation with the Germans about procuring type 214 and finally start manufacture them in MDL with the integration of Russin Klub Missiles.

3 ) Also acquire Amur with the AIP and produce them at MDL

4 ) Design an Indigenous Submarine under Project 75 or 76 whatever is projected on papers and build it amalgamating the 3 aforementioned submarines's technology.

4 ) I dont' know when ATV would fructiy. If it does, it ia a bonus to the IN's submarine

Agree to the above views fully. And if u guys ask me what i want, ---- i just want all the tech from DCN, HDW and ofcourse the Russians to come home, and more so an Indian private company (mostly Tata Sons) to acquire the fully control stake in HDW from the present owner (Americans) so that the sub or tech is not proliferated at the same time we make it here and sell it to others. :twisted:

5 ) Finally acquire 2 Akula II ( either on lease or puraches ). One of eastern part and the second one for the western

I might be taunted by others for dreaming something herculean. But there is no other alternative than this mentioned above.

Implementing my solution might cost a lot of money for Indian Government. But in the long run, who will make the last laugh ? Indian Navy. It will not only kick the ass of the PN, but also keep the marauding flat-nosed Chinese at bay and Indian Navy will truly emerge as a blue water navy.

well i don yhink so .... we definetely have the money in the form of a USELESS Forex Resreve which many Idiots think to be of Godly stuff to even touch with. Its the b'coz of the idiot Manmohan that the defence forces and the ordinary Indians have to pay a heavy price in their dayily living. Now the petroleum products prices are going to be increased. Again.

For any measure of the damage the insensitive and ilogical opening up of economy did can be seen from the bitter fact that, when Indian Navy was building its future destroyer inb the 80's they were dreaming abt the supersonic 3M80 Moskit as its primary weapon, with India being the first customer (& probably the only one, if we acted in). But after the 'opening-up' , what the Navy saw was that the Misile itself costed as much or more than the destroyer itself.

And what many $astardly Idiots from the Indian media say abt the stuff is that Russians are charging us too much for the systems blah blah blah ... the arseOles forgot to look into the devaluation that the idiots made during the 90s. (but not surprisingly, I'll see many supporters for that in here for sure. And my say is that U guys need to rise above personal deeds to think for the Nation at large, which most Indians lack)

Igorr,

well the AIP link that u posted is no good either in terms of its fairness, that guys simply have no clue (or intentional ignorance) abt the Soviet development of the AIP.

As for the U-212s endurance, I guees it mentions the endurance addition that AIP gives or is it the total endurance?? ... well i guess its the first one.

as per the naval-tec link .... it says these ----

The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage. The system consists of nine PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) fuel cells, providing between 30 and 50kW each


and this one says 120 kW --- maybe 214 ?, BTW, whats the power rating of the AIP that went into the German sub?

Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks.


so if we take the capacity of the AIP module considering that its 120 kW rather than the above 30-50kW, we get -

9 x 120kW = 1080kW is the power that the U-212 AIP modue provides. In comparison, as per the link I posted above, the Russians have said that they can produce the 3000-4000 kW module in 3-5 yrs when given order, as they don have the budget to do it for display.

When ordered by a domestic or foreign customer, the corporation of enterprises headed by the SKBK JSC can design, manufacture and supply a high-performance electrochemical power plant (Fig. 4), boasting power ranging from 100 to 3,000 - 4,000 kW and provided with all the infrastructure required for operation, within 3 to 5 years (depending on the power and energy capacity).


Image

and I stay put that we wasted a lot of time dreaming & droolong for something that was not so special. I hope time is not more wasted drooling atleast abt the German AIP and rather go in for a joint-development of the Russian AIP.
--------

And to all those U-boat fans, I just want u guys to give reasons for ur choosing the U-212/4 series over others and also the reason as to y it is the best one as default. Would love to see ur reasons.



.

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Postby Dileep » 03 Jun 2005 21:59

so the diving depth also has to do with the capacity of the ballast tank and how much water it can take in which also determines the maximum diving depth of the submarine.


Pardon my ignorance, but is it not true that once submerged, changing ballast has not much effect on the max depth? Adding more water will of course increase the effective weight, but depth does not make any difference right? A book says, "anything that sinks in a glas sof water will sink to the bottom of the ocean".

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 03 Jun 2005 22:00

Lot of people here are saying that IN needs subs to tackle and destroy Pak subs.

So can these people tell me the following:-


1. in the history of sub warfare, how many subs have been sunk by enemy action?

2. how many were sunk by another sub?

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Postby Shalav » 03 Jun 2005 22:27

Weight increase has little to do with the submergence of the submarine. It would submerge under its own weight if it did not have bouyancy.

Dive depth is controlled by the increase or decrease in bouyancy which is done by allowing the air in the dive tanks to escape - this lets the water in and the bouyancy is reduced.

Dive depth is limited by

1. How much pressure the hull can withstand
2. The amount of compressed air the submarine carries to blow out the water in order to increase bouyancy.

When submerged the air in the dive tanks are compressed to the same pressure as the surrounding water. When a submarine needs to resurface it uses higher pressure air from its air tanks to blow the water out of the tank. So the amount and air pressure of the bottled air is important too.

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surface comabatants

Postby Ronaldo » 03 Jun 2005 23:00

Doesn't we have significant ASW capablity with our Delhi class destroyers? and others too?

Does Pakistan Augostas have land Attack Cruise Missiles?
Like P3C Orions,what are our primary instrumements for ASW?

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Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2005 23:08

well the harpoons can be fired towards land and will hit the biggest target they come across. they dont have IIR for id'ing types of targets.

Marcos, are u Blackcat by any chance ? I have always admired your work over at AFM.

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diving depth

Postby member_7315 » 03 Jun 2005 23:20

as far as i know, the amount of water held in a sub (weight) has no effect on its bouyouncy, it only makes it more sinkable as it counters the upward force provided by bouyouncy which is only related to the object's volume

so the larger the sub's volume, the harder it is for it to sink to the bottom, thats why i guess it increases its weight to counter that effect and sink deeper

atleast this is what cbse physics taught me lol

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Postby Dileep » 03 Jun 2005 23:35

atleast this is what cbse physics taught me

Well, to be precise, that is what you learned, which is unfortunately not correct.

More weight will help to submerge slightly faster, because it will help countering the hydrodynamic drag. It does not limit the depth to which it submerges.

George J

Postby George J » 04 Jun 2005 03:10

Dileep wrote:
atleast this is what cbse physics taught me

Well, to be precise, that is what you learned, which is unfortunately not correct.


They are both complimentary. You dont get shot unless someone shoots you. Similarly you dont learn (i.e gain knowledge) unless you are taught (i.e impart knowledge). Your knowledge can always be self taught (in this case buoyancy). I guess thats what I learned from Wren & Martin or perhaps what I taught myself using the same. :D

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Postby Dileep » 04 Jun 2005 05:12

Georgeji, this is not the right forum to discuss semantics, and I don't claim linguistics expertise. My point is, it is a widespread misconception that you take in more water, you sink deeper. Taught or learned, the idea is incorrect. Agree?

George J

Postby George J » 04 Jun 2005 07:42

Dileep wrote:Georgeji, this is not the right forum to discuss semantics, and I don't claim linguistics expertise. My point is, it is a widespread misconception that you take in more water, you sink deeper. Taught or learned, the idea is incorrect. Agree?


How would I know I slept through physics :twisted: But we like to be techincally correct on BRF, so very few things get a miss around here.

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Postby shiv » 04 Jun 2005 08:07

Want to learn about subs?

Download the book on this page

http://www.aeronautics.ru/literature3.htm

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Postby Shankar » 04 Jun 2005 17:30

The diving depth limitation of any submarine is essentially the limits of pressure (external) the pressure hull can stand before it implodes inwards due to external ocean pressure or more simply crushed in which invariably happens when a sub sinks in deep watres.
The ballast tanks capacity is not linked to depth which any sub can submerge .They simply alter the boyancy of the sub from positive to neutral and vice versa . This means at neutral boyancy the wt of watre dispalced by the sub in submegrd condition is same as the wt of the sub itself . The depth of submegence is controlled by the diving planes which like aerofoil can be moved up or down to move the sub up or down in submerged condition .The chief purpose of ballast tanks is therefore to alter the total weight of the sub by adding watre or subtracting watre (pushed out by compressed air)
therby altering the boyancy status of the sub .
The max depth of submergence for a particular sub is limited by its outer dia and the thickness of the pressure hull shell and material used for making the shell . A small dia attack sub will call for much lesser sheell thickness than a large ohio class or typhon class which may even need a double hull construction .
The pressure to which a ballistic missile sub is subjected to is very significant -at 600 mtrs the pressure on a ohio class is almost 60 bars external that is 60 times atmospheric

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Postby Igorr » 04 Jun 2005 21:21

Marcos wrote:Igorr,

well the AIP link that u posted is no good either in terms of its fairness, that guys simply have no clue (or intentional ignorance) abt the Soviet development of the AIP.

As for the U-212s endurance, I guees it mentions the endurance addition that AIP gives or is it the total endurance?? ... well i guess its the first one.
.

Marcos,
No mention, what this book say about the Russian – I hardly expect respect to Russians from the nation, that naming Russian "slaves" (word "Slavs" – and "slaves" in European languages – is from the same antique word).
I bring this book only to illustrate the principles of the work of hydrogen cells/- They are the same with the metal acid cells, but hydrogen content more energy per 1 unit of its weight.

But still I think it is very questionable if to go to AIP given the difference of full submerged time between AIP+ and AIP- variant is only 4 days (literally 14 day on U214 against 10 day on Amur without AIP) . As I can understand, the Russians go in Amur class from lead acid battery to improved alluminium-acid battery. As you good know Aluminum has much more contents of energy per 1 kg of compound then lead. Lithium – has more, then aluminum, but it is very expensive… Hydrogen has more energy, than aluminum or lithium, but
1) it is very flammable .
2) Hydrogen cells still give not enough horsepower
3) They are very expensive/
4) We still need except hydrogen cells also diesel+fuel and metal-acid battery cells – all this need much volume.
4) You can not to recharge the hydrogen cells from diesel energy, like you can do it with the metal-acid cells.

In conclusion the Subs with improved aluminum (lithium) battery may be not need hydrogen cells at all. Another possibility – to wait to subs with ONLY hydrogen cells generator (without diesel end metal-acid cells).

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Postby david_d » 04 Jun 2005 22:19

Igorr wrote:

"...I hardly expect respect to Russians from the nation, that naming Russian "slaves" (word "Slavs" – and "slaves" in European languages – is from the same antique word). "


This is from Wikipedia. I think may provide some inisght.


"Etymology of 'Slav'

Even the origin of the word "Slav" remains controversial. In the Old Slavonic language that word is "Sloveane", or something similar, with obvious similarities to the word slovo meaning "word, talk". Thus Sloveane would mean "people who speak (the same language)", i.e. people who understand each other, as opposed to the Slavic word for Germans, nemtsi, or "dumb, speechless people" (in Russian simply means Nazis) (from Slavic nemi - mute, dumb; compare the Greek coinage of the term "barbarian"). Another obvious similarity links "Slavs" to the word slava, that is "glory" or "praise" (with a root in common with slovo - one who is often spoken of). Some linguists believe, however, that these obvious connections mislead, despite the early translation of the Greek word orthodoxos ("Correct/right", "glorifying/praising") having its equivalent in pravoslavni with pravo meaning "right" or "correct" and slavni meaning "those who praise" or "those who glorify" [God]."

http://www.answers.com/topic/slavic-peoples

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Postby Igorr » 05 Jun 2005 14:18

david_d wrote:This is from Wikipedia. I think may provide some inisght.
"Etymology of 'Slav'...

OK, now about etymology of 'slave' in Germans and French languages:

\slave\ (?), n. [cf. f. esclave, d. slaaf, dan. slave, sclave, sw. slaf, all fr. g. sklave, mhg. also slave, from the national name of the slavonians, or sclavonians (in ll. slavi or sclavi), who were frequently made slaves by the germans. see slav.]

Source – Babylon electronic dictionary www.babylon.com
hEnglish - advanced version
Author: Hojjat Rabiee
Author Email: homan_peik@yahoo.com
Description: Complete and wide English to English dictionary contains almost 257,000 words and definitions with similar and details word. ::emial:h_r_110@yahoo.com ; homan_peik@yahoo.com; ::web:www.geocities.com\h_r_110
No. of definitions: 182086
Creation Date: 24.04.2003

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Postby david_d » 05 Jun 2005 18:38

Igorr wrote

" OK, now about etymology of 'slave' in Germans and French languages..."

Don't want to divert the thread. However, the Germans made slaves of many people. The key operative is "also". The word Slav existed before the Germans made slaves of some slavs.

The reason for my interest in this is because my wife is Polish and she subscribes to the answers etymology. Anyway, FWIW, during the sixities in Eastern Europe and Russia (I was there), any Indian woman was automatically a 'Romany'. The point is whatever the pejorative you gotta wear it as a badge of distinction otherwise the other guys 'wins'

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Postby Igorr » 05 Jun 2005 19:24

david_d wrote:Don't want to divert the thread'


- You are right for 100%! Now I put our question to right thread: India and Russia - new and analysis (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/phpBB2/vi ... &start=240 )

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Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2005 20:25

Posted by Maz
Webmaster - Navy Site

"Delay in purchase of submarines can hit preparedness"

Sandeep Dikshit

There is no indication of what prevents the Government from taking a decision

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India has a fleet of 16 submarines, the youngest of which is 15 years old
German HDW "back in the reckoning"
Delay will affect implementation of new war doctrine

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NEW DELHI: Procrastination in modernising the submarine fleet can hit the Navy's war preparedness, say naval officers.

India has 16 submarines, the youngest of which is 15 years old. Two have reached the end of their service life and the remaining will be decommissioned in phases from 2010. "Even if the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) signs the contract today, it will take at least five to six years for the first submarine to join the fleet. By then the first of the Kilo class submarines would be nearing retirement," said an officer.

Chief of the Naval Staff Arun Prakash told The Hindu recently that of the two contenders for the multibillion-dollar submarine building contract, the Navy rejected one in 2002. He implied that the Navy had expressed its preference for the French Scorpene submarines. However, the Central Bureau of Investigation told the Delhi High Court that it found no case of mala fide against HDW, a German company, accused of giving kickbacks. With the CBI's clean chit, the company believes that it is back in the reckoning and has been petitioning politicians and the media for a fresh look at its proposal.

Admiral Prakash feels that a re-evaluation of the HDW submarines, rejected by the Navy in the past, will mean a delay of at least two to three years in signing the contract. If five years is taken as the average time to build a submarine at the Navy's Mumbai-based Mazgaon docks, at least a couple of Russian Kilo class submarines along with perhaps two of the four German submarines would have retired. That would leave the Navy with just 10 submarines, all nearing the end of their careers. Of these, three or four will undergo periodical overhauls at any given point of time.

Pakistan better placed

In contrast, Pakistan has commissioned two highly advanced French submarines and is poised to add another to its inventory. At a time when submarine construction facilities at the Mazgaon docks are lying idle, Pakistan has become confident of its capabilities and is even mulling over export of submarines. "This is ironic. Pakistan is today where we were about a decade ago and we seem to be heading for a situation where Pakistan was at that time," said a naval official.

"A decision on submarines will be taken soon," Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said last week. His predecessor, George Fernandes, made a similar statement two years ago. Both suggest that the CCS, which approves high-end defence acquisitions, is seized of the matter but provide no indication of what prevents the Government from taking a decision.

The lack of movement in increasing the Navy's submarine arm can also affect the implementation of its new war doctrine that abandons the emphasis on protecting the coast, say the naval officers. It lays stress on developing a credible minimum nuclear deterrence and dominating the oceans. Submarines play a crucial role in both aspects. New submarines have devastating missile firing capabilities and can lie undetected for long. They are the best suited for carrying nuclear weapons as the enemy will find it hard to locate them compared to aircraft and land-based delivery systems. The submarines can also carry out protracted reconnaissance, besides soundlessly entering the enemy's lair to carry out attacks, argue the officers.

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Postby D_Prem » 25 Jun 2005 03:54

I was wondering what exactly is causing the Scopene deal to take so long. The costs are escalating at an exponential rate and then there is the Agosta factor we have to keep in mind.

I just hope we get those subs quickly, and not only those, lets get some Akula's as well! :)


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