Project 75 & Submarine Options

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 25 Jun 2005 11:31

what we are seeing is maybe a shift in indias defense purchase policy shifting towards everthing american from possible P-3 orions to falcons to patriot 3 to boeing 777/787 in this procurement phase . It take many billions to make unkil change his mind not to say the thousands of jobs in lockheed assembly line .

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Postby Igorr » 02 Jul 2005 03:46

Hi guys!
I was in Sankt-Petersburg Marine Show yesterday. A lot of interesting information from first rank developers of Bramos, Amur, AIP, Club-S and others. Avesome!
There are first demonstration of Lada-class submarine (export destination - Amur-1650). They are all my pictures:
Image Image Image Image

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Postby NitinS » 03 Jul 2005 11:34

hi Guys

i was just thinking.What if India is thinking of customising its Project 75 submarines and may be that is causing the delay.

Its known that German submarine "214" is perhaps one of the best one today.And French submarine can fire the "Exocet Block 3" which some navy people would love to get their hands on.We also need to upgrade our Kilos with AIP's.

So why not build a Project 75 Submarine (MKIed) by bringing the Germans,Russians and French on one board.
As known to all of us nothing nowdays speaks better than the language of money.

Also i have reason to beleive that the two Amur's that are sitting in Russia's dockyards have already been sanctioned to India as part of the Admiral Gorshkov package.

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Postby Igorr » 03 Jul 2005 15:55

NitinS wrote:Also i have reason to beleive that the two Amur's that are sitting in Russia's dockyards have already been sanctioned to India as part of the Admiral Gorshkov package.

Correction: The general manager of Rubin design buraue Igor Spassky said me after press-conference, that only one submarine of Project Amur-1650 (Lada-class) is built for foreign country. It is ready for 30%. The other one - "Kronstadt"- is built now for Russian Navy. After "Kronstadt" finish the third submarine will be built - "Petrozavodsk". The first Lada-class - "Sankt-Petersburg" - enter the service in 2005 (on the pictures). Other Rubin guys explained me, that Amur-1650 can do salvo launch of its missiles from all 6 torpedo tube. To compare with improved Kilo, that can launch salvo only of 2 missiles because only 2 torpedo tubes it can use for missiles delivering, Amur can use all 6 tubes.
Image Image Image Image Image Image

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Postby JaiS » 03 Jul 2005 16:26

Igorr, thanks for the photos ! :)

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 03 Jul 2005 22:31

I think the French were also developing sub-launched version of storm shadow cruise missile.[/code][/list][/list]

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Postby Balwan » 03 Jul 2005 23:47

Can someone shed a light on the design of this Sub. Russian subs are on opposite end of spectrum as far as shape is concerned as compared to US or western design. Just by looking at this design, I maybe wrong in my interpretation, it design is similar to Salt water Crocodile in some sense. Whereas Western Subs are more like Blue Whale body style more cylinderical that can withstand enormous pressure and highly manoverable and off course quieter.

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Postby Igorr » 04 Jul 2005 00:12

Balwan wrote:I maybe wrong in my interpretation, it design is similar to Salt water Crocodile in some sense. Whereas Western Subs are more like Blue Whale body style more cylinderical that can withstand enormous pressure and highly manoverable and off course quieter.

From what distance you saw western submarines? Have you any close-up pict of american or french submarine? As I know, the americans just not allow make pictures of their submarines from close distance.
I can understand people, that obscessive on esthetics, but in war - the results are most important. And the parameters, that give results - are 1) weapon 2) quitness 3) power plant 4) safeness:
Image Image Image Image Image Image

George J

Postby George J » 04 Jul 2005 01:09

NitinS wrote:Also i have reason to beleive that the two Amur's that are sitting in Russia's dockyards have already been sanctioned to India as part of the Admiral Gorshkov package.


Interesting.... but I wont hold my breath for them :twisted:.

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Postby JCage » 04 Jul 2005 02:06

My dear Jingo, wheres the BDL mail you said you were sending? :P
Also, I dont think any Amurs are coming, the Navy chief's been hollering for new subs. :-?

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Postby NRao » 04 Jul 2005 02:16

No package? Adm + Amur + Tus? Hmm.. our mithai too? Mithai wala must have bribed the RUians.

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Postby George J » 04 Jul 2005 08:14

N and N:
Subs will come...but not the ones you expect. One N will be thoroughly delighted about what will come and what that means in the long run to Project 75, suffice to say a change of nomenclature might be at hand.

He he he I lau being cryptic

Jcage:
Dude been trying to call you for over a week? Are you still around?

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Postby NitinS » 04 Jul 2005 11:21

I think Amur or Akulas would be a part of Indian aircraft career fleet sooner or later as news came some time back that L&T has asked for the permission of govt. to manufacture Amur's under a ToT.Let's admit it even under the 10 year defence agreement with the US,its not going to give us technical specifications of Sea Wolf or Los Angeles class submarines.That wud be expecting too much from Uncle Sam.
And does anybody has further news about the ATV?Last time we heard its to be launched in 2007.And after that no info.
I want to see Pakis faces when suddenly they came across the ATV in the Indian Ocean one day. :wink:

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Postby Shankar » 04 Jul 2005 12:16

If i recollect correctly the akulas 2 nos ,Tu-22m 4 nos and Goroshkov 1 nos was the original pakage and that was the main reason why Goroshkov was a free gift . With Gorshkov joining navy as Vikramaditya i 2 years time the other part of the package has become invisible . There rae two possibilities the russian asked a very tseep price and we did not agree . But this condition is unlikely since the prices must have been discussed much before . So the alternate situation is the backfires and akulas will join the navy simultaneously with Vikramaditya . One of the akula 2 will form part of Vikramadityas underwater screen and the Tu 22 M s will be a component of its land based strike arm since mig 29k s really cannot carry much heavy air to ground ordanace . The bilion dollar question is where are the backfires and the akulas -Igor any clue -i will stand you full bottle of vodka if you can unravel the mystry

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Postby Gerard » 04 Jul 2005 16:53

Didn't Russian Defence Minister categorically deny that any sale of Akula SSN was in the works?

Raju

Postby Raju » 04 Jul 2005 17:27

George J wrote:N and N:
Subs will come...but not the ones you expect. One N will be thoroughly delighted about what will come and what that means in the long run to Project 75, suffice to say a change of nomenclature might be at hand.

He he he I lau being cryptic

Jcage:
Dude been trying to call you for over a week? Are you still around?


[sarcasm] Must be a very weighty feeling for the forum member to be carrying around such weighty secrets all the time[/sarcasm]

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Postby Igorr » 04 Jul 2005 17:30

Shankar wrote: The bilion dollar question is where are the backfires and the akulas -Igor any clue -i will stand you full bottle of vodka if you can unravel the mystry

- Sorry, but it is a question of big politics. All things about nuclear subs - are very secretive and all denials may be just cover-up of the truth... About diesel-electric subs the situation is much clearer:

ST. PETERSBURG, on 30 June. (Corr. OF ITAR- TASS). The Supply agreement of spare parts for the non-atomic submarines of project 877ekm, built in Russia to order of India, was signed today in Saint Petersburg the naval attache of India in RF m. Muralidkharan and the general director OF FGUP "admiralty shipyards" Vladimir Aleksandrov, - reported for corr. OF ITAR- TASS the general director of Russian enterprise. The signing of contract, with the cost of 1 mln. dollars, took place within the framework of the passing here second international naval salon. According to V. Aleksandrov, "admiralty shipyards" have a license for the realization of a similar kind of transaction with the foreign buyers. Russia placed to India 10 non-nuclear submarines of project 877ekm. Two NAPL were built in enterprise "Red Sormovo", eight - on the "Admiralty shipyards". Aleksandrov noted that this is the sequential contract within the framework of created by this enterprise the integrated system of post-warranty service maintenance for previously military equipment of Russian production. On the salon are discussing the prospects for further collaboration in the export of Russian submarines, in particular, the ships of the fourth generation of class "Amur".
http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=16233&cid=94

ST. PETERSBURG, on 30 June. (ITAR- TASS). FGUP "Admiralty shipyards" relies on delivery of 12 non-nuclear submarines of project "Amur" (export alternative name for design 677 "Lada") to the foreign customers. Pra1m- TASS with the reference to the Director-General of the enterprise Vladimir Aleksandrov reported on this. According to him, the process of proposal and agreement of sale of the fourth generation submarines must go more rapidly in connection with the fact that the submarine of Russian last design in the near future will be transmitted TO Russia NAVY. V. Aleksandrov explained, that the enterprise obtained the approval of Defense Ministry to the demonstration to the foreign specialists of several sections of submarine "Saint Petersburg" for the demonstration of the layout of equipment, suitability for inhabitation of boat. General director emphasized that on this project "there are many interesting proposals; however, it noted that the delivery of submarines" a question is political, a question of mutual commitments ". According to Aleksandrov, present moment is critical, since some 44- countries, which have non-nuclear submarine fleet, want to replace the submarines of the second and third generation by the more contemporary models. It refined that the cost NAPL is 150-200 million $..
http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=16224&cid=94

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Postby JCage » 04 Jul 2005 21:00

George J wrote:N and N:
Subs will come...but not the ones you expect. One N will be thoroughly delighted about what will come and what that means in the long run to Project 75, suffice to say a change of nomenclature might be at hand.

He he he I lau being cryptic

Jcage:
Dude been trying to call you for over a week? Are you still around?


Georgeji,
Apologies onlee for not telling u, but am currently in hometown aka Blr for R&R. More discussions offline pls.

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Postby NitinS » 05 Jul 2005 12:15

Delivery of Nuclear capable Amur's and Akula's would create big ripples in the international fora.I think these wud be delivered just that the delivery would be hush hush.
I think having a potent submarine arm is more lethal than having a fleet of surface warships.So frankly speaking i do not understand the idea of Indian Navy of concentrating on surface combatants more than the submarines.I wud prefer having more submarines any day than having more surface ships even with nuclear capabilities.

George J

Postby George J » 06 Jul 2005 00:10

NitinS wrote:.......I think these wud be delivered just that the delivery would be hush hush.......I think having a potent submarine arm is more lethal than having a fleet of surface warships.........i do not understand the idea of Indian Navy of concentrating on surface combatants more than the submarines.......................I wud prefer having more submarines any day .......


Umm are you some sort of Naval planner for the IN? If so, we would love to hear more from you, if not.....you dont have the authority nor should you have the audacity to question WHY the Navy is doing what its doing.

BRF is a great fora to be informed about what the IN is upto and what it can do....but VERY FEW on BR are privy to the contraints, priorities, focus or the IN or any of the services.

Suffice to say that Navy planning is a function of what the Navy (in conjunction with MOD, FinMin and MEA) see as its priorities in the next two decades and what the Navy sees as its pressing concerns, limitations and abilities in this ambit.

Having recently interacted with a career Naval planner I ve realize the scope and responsibilities of the job. They dont pull equipment out of their wahzoo, its all being done with a very serious long term focus. With a keen eye on the geopolitical developments, Indian industrial capabilities and MONEY.

So like I said...if you are a IN planner its great...if not.........

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Postby NRao » 06 Jul 2005 00:53

With a keen eye on the geopolitical developments..


Hmmmm...

Any discussions if this keen eye is prevalent in other areas of GoI? Nothing serious, just would like to avoid making mole hills out of some mountains.

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Postby Tapas » 06 Jul 2005 01:07

George wrote: "... BRF is a great fora to be informed about what the IN is upto and what it can do....but VERY FEW on BR are privy to the contraints, priorities, focus or the IN or any of the services. .."

George, you are completely wrong. After reading the posts from some members on this forum, I am convinced that only if the foolish Indian jaanta replaced the Prime misnister / his cabinet / the top beaurocrats / and the other assorted fools with these BR stalwarts, everything in India would be fine. We could have a 500 ship navy, 10,000 strategic bombers, could have just nuked pakistan, flooded bangladesh, stopped the Indus water flowing into Pakistan, screwed china, kicked unkil's ass, and lived happily.

It is only the foolish who consider reality and have the patience to bide his time. It is only the fool who does not exchange hypothesis for facts, and rehtoric for logic.

Fortunately, because people like you (and a few others) who stick to facts that occasional posters (and veery long time lurkers) like me consider BRF as such an informative place.

Regards - tapas

George J

Postby George J » 06 Jul 2005 01:20

The keen eye comes into focus with the help of what the MEA sees. I have been given to understand that 'planning' is quite different from 'contracting'. The former is 'what lies ahead' and they plan for the next 20-25 years, contracting (scorpenes, ADS, Talwar, SeaBird, P-17 etc) have already been planned for many decades ago......

I believe the MEA comes in with regards to IN planning future acquisitions or joint programs....where do they see Indo-US relations heading (the truth not whats in the press), what about Indo-Russian and Indo-Chinese relations etc, the FinMin chimes in with the economic sceanarios and the MOD has a say on whats gonna come to the Navy based on what the MEA and FinMin say.

So if you follow the BRF line that Babus are idiots then I guess there is no planning/interaction/cooperation happening....but based on my exchange this individual, it did not seem to work that way in his sphere of things. He was very clear about the bureaucratic and political distinctions. Very realistic and pragmatic about the strengths and weakness of the two and how the Navy 'plans' around these things.

BRF is right on several fronts including the manic drive to make and not buy stuff. Navy thinks thats the key....but is limited by what PSU and Pvt sector can do (again the whole truth and not what press releases say).

In short he was very optimistic about the P-75 (but not in the ways BRF seem to think) and seems to have a slightly different view about a few other things.....but all is definately not lost.

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Postby Katare » 06 Jul 2005 05:41

I think IN's submarine arm needs more attention than any other arms but it is in shambles not because IN prefers surface ships over Submarines but its because political bull$hit over HDW deal and lack of international vendors with required technology in diesel submarine market.

Also surface ships have one advantage over subs that they can carry a lot more ammunition than subs can ever dream of. They are ideal for massive land attack on a country like Pakistan. Subs are more of an ambush/luck, denial deterrent type of a weapon while ships can launch massive and sustained attacks on land targets.

Although there is consensus that we do need to induct new and better subs both conventional and nonconventional as soon as possible.

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Postby Shankar » 06 Jul 2005 14:32

The roles played by indian navy are changing somewhat -the role of providing security to shipping in arabian sea and indian ocean is becomming more and more important like that of regional policeman in the oceans -with us very much involved else where our navies surface combatants have suddenly under tremendous operation pressure from patrolling the sea lanes to provide help to neighbouring natins in natural disaters to more frequent interaction with friendly navies both near and far ,the maintaince time is shrinking and this cannot be allowed in the long run. At present more pressure is on aquiring surface assets to meet these real needs than strike assets for a possible need . And finally you will know a sub or two has joined the fleet only when the navy feels the time is right for you to know .

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Postby Rakesh » 08 Jul 2005 20:23


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Postby NitinS » 09 Jul 2005 18:05

George:Umm are you some sort of Naval planner for the IN?

Am not a Naval Planner.And neither i want to be bossed around.Everybody has the right to discuss things on this forum.
And nobody's perfect.Neither u nor me.
I was just expressing my idea.
You do not need to remind me of the BR people.I have deep respect for some members here.
Now do i need to remind u of the 1971 war abt the Ghazi submarine.How deeply concerned Indian Navy was of it?And the threat that the present Agostas present to us.
And why is PLA concentrating on submarines alone?

I admit that in the end it deepends on the the captain of the ship or submarine.But a balance in everything is required.
So tell me do ships provide a means of second retaliatory strike in an environment which has been NUKED?

What i suggested is completely focussing on surface combatants and neglecting the submarine arm would lead us nowhere.And i wanted decent discussions on idea that i presented than,"I KNOW IT All stuff."

And neither once i raised questions against any of the BR people here.

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Postby NRao » 09 Jul 2005 18:12

Germans back in submarine fray

The visit by the HDW officials has a special significance. For the first time, they told the Navy that the HDW Class-214 submarine could be integrated with submarine-to-land missile systems, including the American Sub-Harpoon or Russian Klub-3M-54E1 (now part of the Navy’s Kilo-class subs).

Significantly, it was the absence of such a missile capability on the proposed Class 214 that originally compelled the government to look at the French Scorpene, which can fire Exocet-39 missiles.

HDW officials have also suggested that interest in the Sub-Harpoon missiles would now be simpler to address, thanks to the warming up Indo-US relations


Cheaper by at least 30%.

30% off-set.

Stop gap solution: immediate 2nd hand subs (understand that they would not be gold plated).

And now land attack capability.

Indian built.

A 214-MKI in the making?

A neat tutorial in sales.

Wonder what else do they have in their back pockets. Also, what other items could be on an Indian wish list?

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Postby ragupta » 09 Jul 2005 19:01

Wonder what else do they have in their back pockets. Also, what other items could be on an Indian wish list?


Without offer for local production of MTU engine with complete TOT, I would not consider any german offer even HDW. This way Navy and Army can both get something.

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Postby Div » 10 Jul 2005 01:23

Are the Israeli subs modified Type 212s or 214s? They have somehow figured out a way to fire SLCMs by adding 655mm torpedo tubes.

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Postby JCage » 10 Jul 2005 02:14

ragupta wrote:
Wonder what else do they have in their back pockets. Also, what other items could be on an Indian wish list?


Without offer for local production of MTU engine with complete TOT, I would not consider any german offer even HDW. This way Navy and Army can both get something.

There is already an offer for lic production, provided the Army had ordered 300 not 124 Arjuns.

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Postby John » 10 Jul 2005 03:22

Div wrote:Are the Israeli subs modified Type 212s or 214s? They have somehow figured out a way to fire SLCMs by adding 655mm torpedo tubes.

Type 212s.

As i mentioned before the drawback with u-214 is that we have to rely on american firm for SSM or ICS if were to choose U-214.

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Postby abrahavt » 10 Jul 2005 03:48

Unkil will most likey agree to Harpoon sales to India. If we dont want to depend on them then the germans have agreed to modify it to fire Klubs.

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Postby NRao » 10 Jul 2005 18:24

France offers to absorb the inflation in submarine deal

In a significant gesture, France today offered to absorb the increase in costs due to inflation in the much delayed multi-billion deal to make Scorpene submarine in India.

French defence major Armaris also assured expertise if the Indian Navy wanted to carry out "significant changes" in the design of the submarine to install an Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, called the Misma, and to add a new weapon system in the submarine, billed as the world's most silent killer machine.


The German "pressure" seems to be felt by the French.

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Postby vipin » 10 Jul 2005 18:44

Damn I really hope the govt seals this deal before the year end.

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Postby Katare » 10 Jul 2005 19:32

I think we'll see a global tender requesting RFP for 6 submarines pretty soon :cry:

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Postby ragupta » 10 Jul 2005 21:04

JCage wrote:
ragupta wrote:
Wonder what else do they have in their back pockets. Also, what other items could be on an Indian wish list?


Without offer for local production of MTU engine with complete TOT, I would not consider any german offer even HDW. This way Navy and Army can both get something.

There is already an offer for lic production, provided the Army had ordered 300 not 124 Arjuns.


What is the reason then not to for engine production - is it too costly?
Can we not reduce the cost over time, it could be one of the best engines we could get it. Perhaps it could be incorporation in Tank-EX or event the T-series - No idea on this one, but Army's attitude does not seem to be helping towards indigenization.

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Postby Gerard » 10 Jul 2005 21:40

Katare wrote:I think we'll see a global tender requesting RFP for 6 submarines pretty soon :cry:


Sadly, I think you're right.

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Postby Neethan » 10 Jul 2005 22:17

If the french can build the scorpenes to indian requirements with missile firing capability other than the exocet, and sell it for a reduced price, the french would most certainly get the contract.


The Indian Ministry of Defence, under pressure from the Indian Navy and facing an ultimatum from the French government, agreed to buy the six Scorpene submarines for $4.6 billion — $1.4 billion more than the price tag negotiated in 2002. The increased cost was blamed on the prolonged negotiations that invalidated the $3.2 billion price tag agreed in 2002.



The result is the “Scorpene” which offers a size/performance/quality/price ratio superior to any of the company’s competitors in the international market, such as HDW, which is a bad word in India and Kockums and the Australians have had their problems.


Of the 10 Kilos already in the Indian Navy, seven have been equipped with the 3M-54E1 Alfa cruise missile. The remaining three boats will be refitted with this missile over the next two years. (The upgraded version of Project 877EKM subs are referred to as Project 636.)

The Novator 3M-54E1 Alfa cruise missile is 6.2 meters long. It is designed for launch from a 533 mm torpedo tube, or a vertical launch tube. It has a range of 160 nautical miles and is subsonic. It uses an ARGS-54 active radar seeker and Glonass satellite and inertial guidance.

All the upgraded Kilos will have the capability to launch the Indo-Russian supersonic Brahmos cruise missile when its undersea version is developed.


A transition from subsonic cruise missile to supersonic will be great and an increased range to 1000km would be adequate(ballistic missile on the ATV).

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Postby John » 10 Jul 2005 22:59

Shankar wrote:what we are seeing is maybe a shift in indias defense purchase policy shifting towards everthing american from possible P-3 orions to falcons to patriot 3 to boeing 777/787 in this procurement phase . It take many billions to make unkil change his mind not to say the thousands of jobs in lockheed assembly line .

falcon's are still needed for MPRA even if P-3C is purchased expect IN to purchase a few falcon to fill in that role.


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