Return of the Viraat

Jagan
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Postby Jagan » 08 Jun 2005 00:41

waitaminit you guys are saying that a Rear Admiral commands the Viraat?

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Postby Harry » 08 Jun 2005 00:42

They are unfortunately, mostly deskjobs. However, Admirals may be required to complement ships during wartime deployment. The CNS will be onboard the flagship.

waitaminit you guys are saying that a Rear Admiral commands the Viraat?

No. Viraat is/should be commanded by someone else, as of now.

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Postby Jagan » 08 Jun 2005 00:45

Yeah I can understand senior admirals accompanying ships on deployment.. but who actually is **the** captain of the ship ? Rank of Captain or Commodore? (or higher?)

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Postby Vick » 08 Jun 2005 00:47

Harry wrote:No. Like was mentioned, he's a Rear Admiral now. This is the last ship.


Thanks Harry, you answered my question...

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Postby Harry » 08 Jun 2005 00:48

Jagan wrote:Yeah I can understand senior admirals accompanying ships on deployment.. but who actually is **the** captain of the ship ? Rank of Captain or Commodore? (or higher?)


The CO is always the Captain himself.

Commodore is not really a rank and all Captains are given this designation if they complete 4-5 years of service under the latter rank and are land based. On a ship, they are back to "Captain"

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Postby anil ambani » 08 Jun 2005 03:31

Someone please tell me something more about the Shtil.


Image

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Postby Rupak » 08 Jun 2005 05:06

Good show Harry. What is that radar on the Sukanyas?
cheers
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Postby Singha » 08 Jun 2005 07:44

isnt it tradition on USN SAGs for a captain to run the carrier, a separate air wing commander and a full Admiral or vice-Admiral to command the overall battlegroup ?

I am sure Adm Koshy and staff ought to be onboard Vikramaditya in the chittagong raid :twisted:

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Postby anil ambani » 08 Jun 2005 08:00

INS VIRAAT’s FINAL YEARS

By Sayan Majumdar



New Delhi, 05 June 2005

With the sanctioned upgradation of Indian Navy’s Sea Harrier fighter aircraft, INS Viraat’s flight deck is all set to register a decent new look. A total of 14 Sea Harrier FRS51 will be updated, fitting these with Rafael Derby/Alto Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles (BVRAAM) in tandem with Elta EL/M 2032 radars. Combat manoeuvring flight recorders and digital cockpit voice recorders will be added. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at Bangalore will carry out the upgrade. The upgradation was long overdue as the original combination of non-coherent pulse ‘Blue Fox’ radar and Magic 2 Within Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles (WVRAAM) combination was critically inadequate in dealing with emerging threats in the Indian Ocean region. The upgradation of the Sea Harriers may also send a tacit signal that the Navy may be interested in the Royal Navy Command Cruiser HMS Invincible facing premature decommissioning and is capable of providing a robust Afloat Naval Headquarters useful for distant and amphibious operations.

The Sea Harrier was developed for Royal Navy requirements during the Cold War era and intended primarily for protection of shipping lanes in the North Atlantic from long-range air-launched missiles fired from Soviet Tupolev-95/142 “Bear” bomber/cruise missile platforms or submarine launched missiles using target coordinates supplied from “Bears” via data-link. The “Bear” usually operating at medium or high altitude could be detected by the ship’s radar to vector a Sea Harrier out to intercept it. In any case the Sea Harrier was essentially a back up to land-based air power, as it lacked the requisite speed of a “conventional” fighter. Unfortunately the concept of having an Advanced Short Take-Off & Landing (ASTOL) project with plenum chamber burning for mounting a Combat Air Patrol (CAP) for two and half hours at an unspecified distance from the mother ship failed.

However, in close combat the Sea Harrier is formidable. It is “stealthy” in visual terms, thanks to its small size and smokeless engine. With Vectoring In Forward Flight (VIFF) attributes it has a formidable turning capability. In spite of a modest fuel fraction, the economical turbofan engine with lack of reheat enables a maximum interception radius of around 740-km.

Yet, even during the Falklands conflict in 1982 in spite of great air combat success of the Royal Navy Sea Harrier fleet, the limitations and deficiencies were apparent. With no Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS) platform support and often-minimal ship-borne control, the Sea Harrier fleet was forced to resort to the wasteful practice of standing patrols with an inherent risk of getting outnumbered. The deployment of aircraft carriers HMS Hermes and HMS Invincible well beyond the effective range of Argentine strike fighters also “stretched” the patrol area of the Sea Harrier fleet. No wonder, in the absence of radar lookdown capability, most sightings were made visually and chances were missed. However, on the flip side the Argentine fighters, operating from land bases were made to reach the Royal Navy fleet at “firm” subsonic speeds only to be decimated by the Sea Harriers. The Royal Navy tactics and the sheer skill and professionalism of Sea Harrier pilots held the key. The Royal Navy nuclear powered submarines for their part “cornered” the sole Argentine aircraft carrier ‘Vienticinco de Mayo’ in coastal waters constraining its operational flexibility to a considerable extent. In all the Royal Navy Sea Harriers registered around 28 “kills” without conceding a single loss in air-to-air combat, with around 23 “kills” registered by the AIM-9L Sidewinder WVRAAM.
But the all-WVRAAM armament in air-to-air role in shape if AIM-9L Sidewinder also made their deficiencies apparent. AIM-9L was touted as an “all-aspect” WVRAAM. Yet, although most missile launches were made from astern, the kill ratio achieved was only about 67 percent. At very low level in dense atmosphere the advertised range of AIM-9L was severely curtailed and the missiles fell “short” of even close targets. No wonder the Royal Navy promptly went for a combination of ‘Sea Vixen’ radar with AIM-120 AMRAAM BVRAAM, with Sea Harriers holding the distinction of being the first European fighter to be armed with AMRAAM.

The Indian Navy for their part have selected the Israeli Active-Radar Homing (ARH) AAM referred to as Alto or Derby which shares design commonality with Python 4 WVRAAM with addition of mid-body wings. Derby has Look-Down/Shoot-Down capability and advanced programmable ECCM to operate under dense electronic warfare environments. Israelis claim a maximum range of 50-km.

For BVR engagements a Lock-On After Launch (LOAL) mode is used in which the missile employs inertial guidance immediately after launch until the seeker is activated and homes in on the target. Derby also has a very low minimum range and an option for Lock-On Before Launch (LOBL) mode and thus is also capable of being employed for short-range engagements. In the LOBL mode for short-range engagements, Derby's seeker can be slaved to the aircraft's radar or the pilot's helmet mounted cueing system. The seeker is activated before launch and guides the missile all the way to the target. The warhead and proximity fuse shares commonality with that of Python 4.

To support the IN Sea Harrier fleet embarked on INS Viraat the Airborne Early Warning (AEW) role the IN employs Russian Kamov-31 (also known as the Kamov-29 RLD) representing a further development of the Kamov-27 Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) helicopter. In terms of enhancement of endurance the helicopter will be fitted with a helicopter-to-helicopter in-flight refuelling capability although whirling rotor blades makes such a task very challenging, demanding expertise and concentration.

The Kamov-31 is fitted with the E-801M Oko (Eye) airborne electronic warfare radar which features a 6x1-metre planar array mounted beneath the fuselage. The radar is folded and stowed beneath the aircraft's fuselage before being lowered into a vertical position, to allow 360-degrees mechanical scanning once every ten seconds. The radar can simultaneously track up to 20 airborne or surface threats, and can detect fighter-sized aircraft from a range of 110-km to 115-km and surface ships at a horizon of 200-km from an altitude of 9840-ft. Some sources state an enhanced capability.

The co-ordinates, speed and heading of a target gathered by the radar are transmitted via an encoded radio data-link channel to a ship-borne or shore-based command post facilitating introduction of airborne network centric warfare to the Indian Navy. As is apparent, the Kamov-31 will considerably free the IN Sea Harrier fleet from the wasteful practice of standing patrols by positioning them at advantageous co-ordinates before the enemy air platforms arrive at striking distance, a critical requirement in respect to limited speed of the Sea Harriers especially while dealing with enemy strike fighters and Long Range Maritime Patrol (LRMP) platforms like P-3C Orion armed with stand-off Anti-Ship Missiles (AShM).

Meanwhile the ASW capability of INS Viraat remains formidable, thanks to a combination of British and Russian ASW helicopters. INS Viraat previously known as HMS Hermes in British Royal Navy service perhaps remains as the only post-World War II aircraft carrier shouldering on a distinguished service well into twenty-first Century. One of the more photographed warships of all time, in Royal Navy service it played a critical “Cold War role” in North Atlantic and North Sea often “brushing” with one-time arch-rival Soviet Navy surface combatants. During Falklands War of 1982 its role as an aircraft carrier and Command Ship was of paramount importance, as Royal Navy would simply have failed to undertake the Falklands campaign without this particular ship.

Presently in Indian Navy service the ageing INS Viraat still represents a potent strategic force in the vital Indian Ocean region. INS Viraat having enjoyed such a distinguished service on three oceans is expected to “hold the fort” until INS Vikramaditya (ex-Admiral Gorshkov) joins the Indian Navy fleet sometime in 2007–2008. One may hope that such an illustrious warship will “obtain” a new role as a floating maritime museum much to delight of Indian and British naval officers and personnel who served on the ship at any point of time.

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Postby pauldevis » 08 Jun 2005 14:15

Harry , superb article. Havent had time to read beyond page 2.
Did you get a chance to speak to any of the pilots ? How do they feel about the pending induction of the Mig - 29K ? Have any been sent abroad or to the IAF for training with the 29's ?

PS : You probably could make a lot of money if you sold the article to an aviation magazine . :D

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Postby Himanshu » 08 Jun 2005 14:47

You did it buddy.. :)

You have my respects for the excellent efforts you have put in, in educating the net community about the Indian Armed Forces...

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Postby Harry » 08 Jun 2005 19:39

pauldevis wrote:Harry , superb article. Havent had time to read beyond page 2.
Did you get a chance to speak to any of the pilots ? How do they feel about the pending induction of the Mig - 29K ? Have any been sent abroad or to the IAF for training with the 29's ?


Technical personnel from the Navy have been sent to train on the MiG-29K and select personnel from Viraat and elsewhere have been sent to train on the R-33 Vikad. Since the SHAR is very limited, the MiG-29K should be a huge jump but its too early to give any impressions of the latter itself.

PS : You probably could make a lot of money if you sold the article to an aviation magazine . :D


But then, the majority would'nt see it would they?

Take the LCA articles for example - certainly the most exhaustive study of tech on the LCA anywhere with never before known details but no one has read it.

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Postby A Sharma » 08 Jun 2005 21:48

Take the LCA articles for example - certainly the most exhaustive study of tech on the LCA anywhere with never before known details but no one has read it.


Harry where I can read this article??

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Postby Manne » 08 Jun 2005 21:58

Harry where I can read this article??


psst...if you ever lay your hands on it, lemme know. :(
All we got to see were scanned pages too small to read the article. Can't blame Harry though.

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Postby Harry » 08 Jun 2005 23:04

A Sharma wrote:
Take the LCA articles for example - certainly the most exhaustive study of tech on the LCA anywhere with never before known details but no one has read it.


Harry where I can read this article??


http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_521.shtml

George J

Postby George J » 08 Jun 2005 23:27

Hmm we can SEE what the aricle looks like but I for one can seem to be able to read it. And from what I understand we are not allowed to distribute scans of this particular article right?

Is there anyone someone BESIDES the author can get their hands on this article and somehow distribute this in pvt circulation....like so many other things.

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Postby CPrakash » 09 Jun 2005 01:09

Harry wrote:
PS : You probably could make a lot of money if you sold the article to an aviation magazine . :D


But then, the majority would'nt see it would they?

Take the LCA articles for example - certainly the most exhaustive study of tech on the LCA anywhere with never before known details but no one has read it.


There is also a question of whom to sell the article too? All desi magazines from what i heard dont pay a penny or a paisa - and AFM very recently carried an article on Viraat and its operations by Simon Watson, which leads me to think the Videsi magazines prefer the videsi folks stories over the desi journos..

BTW was Simon Watson also there with you on this photo shoot? How did you manage this in the first place?

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Postby Harry » 09 Jun 2005 04:21

Hmm we can SEE what the aricle looks like but I for one can seem to be able to read it.


Reaally? Well maybe that's why we added the last line. :lol:

Circulation? Maybe eventually but will simply not be as fun as the actual mag.

All desi magazines from what i heard dont pay a penny or a paisa - and AFM very recently carried an article on Viraat and its operations by Simon Watson, which leads me to think the Videsi magazines prefer the videsi folks stories over the desi journos..


What Viraat article? Phil Camp and Simon watson visited INS Hansa and have a 6 page article on that base and squadrons in the AFM June issue. Has good photos, absolutely nothing new in the text, esp. if you've visited ACIG. Highlights are a two-page spread of a Tu-142 doing engine runs (should have been an Il-38 instead IMO), a tail shot of a Sagar-Pawan, the INAS-339 hangar, and most importantly, one shot each of a CG chetak, Dhruv and a Dhruv from the intensive flying training unit besides the regular small photos of a Sea Harrier, Do-228, Il-38 and Ka-28. All but the Sea Harrier are static shots of parked a/c. Overall, very nice to collect but offers nothing new and the individual imported AFMs are very expensive.

In terms of actual photos, AFM would have been the first public media where one could have seen a T.4(I) in the May issue and a Sagar Pawan (Kiran) but otherwise, first looks were available years ago at ACIG.

Mags are another level for presentation and readability but today, Internet media has its own value, especially in context of very high res digital photos. It is inconceivable to put something as large as the Viraat section in a magazine. It would end up a coffee table book. Even the LCA article was so large that it had to be shortened and cut into two for two separate issues. However, since the latter was intended for print media, it will indeed be enjoyed better that way.

Desi mags also have a darkside - they often carry oft repeated junk articles and photos, as dictated by manufacturers.

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 09 Jun 2005 14:15

Harry,

I did read your article in Vayu and rather more than a couple of times.

It would be wonderful if you would do something similar on mechanical aspects of LCA.


Also on ACIG you mentioned about a stretched version of LCA, would you care to elaborate?

I cannot locate that page on ACIG now but did'ntt you say something also about multi - role aircraft in next line.

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Postby Jagan » 09 Jun 2005 18:57

Plus, I think Simon watson visited INS Hansa in Feb, just after Aero India. Harrys visit to Viraat is more recent (like April/May)

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Postby Aditya G » 09 Jun 2005 19:27

Viraat coverage seems to be from the "Day at Sea" organised by the IN in March. Saw coverage of that in Sainik Samachar;

http://mod.nic.in/samachar/april15-05/body.html#l11

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Postby Sanjay » 09 Jun 2005 23:51

Harry,
Just saw the article - superb as usual.

Have you tried to get it formally published in Vayu ?

Superb pics.

Just to clarify - have all 3 Delhis, 3 P-16 and 2 P-16A been fitted with Baraks ?

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Postby Harry » 10 Jun 2005 00:13

Raj Malhotra wrote:Harry,

I did read your article in Vayu and rather more than a couple of times.

It would be wonderful if you would do something similar on mechanical aspects of LCA.


Could've posted a review or something?

Are you talking about Part-2, because Part-1 did cover the mechanical and physical aspects? It would have been pretty easy for Aero India visitors to pick up a copy there, which strangely, did'nt happen at all.

Also on ACIG you mentioned about a stretched version of LCA, would you care to elaborate?

I cannot locate that page on ACIG now but did'ntt you say something also about multi - role aircraft in next line.


There's nothing much to say. 20 ton AUW, either single or twin engined and new technologies blah blah. More emphasis on the air-to-ground role and conformally carried weapons. Just a study, nothing more. Although plenty of work has gone into it, the proposal has not yet been sent to the IAF.

http://www.acig.org/exclusives/aero/acig_aero05_lca.htm

Have you tried to get it formally published in Vayu ?


Would be redundant, I think?

Just to clarify - have all 3 Delhis, 3 P-16 and 2 P-16A been fitted with Baraks ?


Aaaaaaaarggghhh!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by Harry on 10 Jun 2005 00:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Jagan » 10 Jun 2005 01:08

Harry wrote:The thing is that Vayu was supposed to launch their website around now, where individual issues and articles were supposed to be available for online purchase. Don't know if that would ever happen in reality but that is the main thing to consider.


Dont hold your breath. I very clearly remember them telling me that the Vayu Aerospace website was around the corner (maybe a fortnight away) in **2000**. I guess I reminded/asked him about it atleast twice since then...

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Postby shiv » 10 Jun 2005 06:07

Please spare this thread for discussion about Harry's excellent Viraat coevrage on ACIG

Please see
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/phpBB2/vi ... php?t=1374

for the LCA article


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