IAF taking space seriously

Ved
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IAF taking space seriously

Postby Ved » 31 May 2006 07:55

On 01 Jun, the IAF will begin to give space the priority it long deserved, by the addressing of space issues by an ACAS Ops (Space), working in parrallel with the erstwhile ACAS Ops (now to be known as the ACAS Ops (Air)). The ACAS Ops (Space) will be AVM Kumaria.

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Postby Anoop » 31 May 2006 08:12

Ved,

What operations will be the Space command undertake, apart from recce? I am assuming that communications does not require an IAF-specific space arm. Am I right? Does digital map-making come under the ambit of the Space command?

Thanks in advance.

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Postby Arun_S » 31 May 2006 08:45

I am delighted to hear that. Sooner the better.

George J

Postby George J » 31 May 2006 10:38

Ved:
This bring us back to the old issues, what assets? who pays for them? who will control them? why not a tri services command?

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Postby merlin » 31 May 2006 11:23

who pays for them? who will control them?


I think we can safely say that it does not matter who will pay for them but IAF would like to control them :P

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Postby Singha » 31 May 2006 11:26

ATBM assets like Arrow2 (I hope), Prithvi-derivative and maybe Barak2-ER and their C3I linkages look like a natural fit. purely surveillance assets like Green Pine and other LR radars also....ISRO can teach the IAF the ins and outs of space telemetry and tracking.

however DIA and RAW-ARC will fight tooth and nail not to give up control on IMINT and ECM assets.

Brings us again to need for a IDS and ONE MAN who can make all branches march to a single drummer. right now they all want to go in same direction but at different frequencies and seldom attain the "harmonic vibration"

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Postby RanjanRoy » 31 May 2006 20:15

merlin wrote:
who pays for them? who will control them?


I think we can safely say that it does not matter who will pay for them but IAF would like to control them :P

Thank you for the one liner gem of wisdom, it was so brillient. :-?

What is wrong if a service wants to invent/innovate because it has specific or unique requirements or constrain with current methods/means and it sees novel application? or force multiplication potential? That is what the services are made in the first place greater/effective force projection.

What is your heartburn since IAF is paying for it from it's own budget? Or is because IAF is not Kosher and can't have a space command of its own, while IN can apply space and RMA concepts but IAF can't.

I say let a thousand flowers bloom.
IMHO the bottomline is does it give rise to a bigger punch within available resources.

George J

Postby George J » 31 May 2006 20:25

I think the problem as it was discussed earlier (when govt shot down Aerospace command) was that IAF will ask for more money to develop the assets and perhaps IAF will get this additional monies. IN already has fund to develop communication assets. IA well they will wait for what the Russians have to sell.

Net result is that all three services will end up developing their technology in Silos (so the network-centric will be their network and no one elses).

What has been argued earlier is that IMINT/COMINT/Communication etc can have a shared backbone/std deveoped under the ageis of the tri services command and then whatever ding dong you want, you can add to it with your own money (GOI will pay for the backbone). The problem with IMINT is that if IAF build its own infrastructure then it will decides its priorities and other services have to be at their mercy (or build their own) to use the same.

Personally I would like to see Aerospace flourish under a triservice command, its about time these jokers learnt to work together on a human network level rather than connecting their computers. It will also save the taxpayers a lot of money in the long run.

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Postby Mandeep » 31 May 2006 21:26

I'm delighted at the news ! Logically the IAF should operate the Space assets.

George J

Postby George J » 31 May 2006 21:35

Why?

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Postby Roop » 31 May 2006 23:23

George J wrote:Why?


He already told you -- it's logical. :rotfl:

George J

Postby George J » 01 Jun 2006 00:02

Lohori Logic is also logic. :D

So I ask again.........why?

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Postby Arun_S » 01 Jun 2006 00:10

Since the time US first sneaked in military application of space after getting buyin from Soviet Union on the principle of equal and free access to space for civil use, for USA space has been the fifth leg of military. In fact it periodically reiterates the importance of continued leadership in military use of space to maintain overwhelming military superiority on ground, so much so that keeps announching that US red line is crossed if any adversary challanges US access to military use of space (aka Satellite killer weapons and ground based High power electromagnetic/optical disabling devices). While its own doctrine envisages crippling the space assettes of its adversary.

India should learn from others and there is no shame in emulating others in flexing your muscles in the arena. When you are in boxing ring why be afraid of punches, the idea is to deliver more dealdy punches to the challenger, inspite of what he can throw at you.

So for Indian space command the mantra is simple:
1. Use Space to your own military advantage
2. Deny the adversary the use of space for mil advantage and during war extend that to civil economic disruption too.

So do I hear that that Army has real good long range radars & ELINT to stake a claim to space command :lol: The choice based on competence and organizational skills IMHO is very clear.

Yes joint inter-service thingee is a good concept, but given all the parochial ambitions & pumpud up ego in the 3 service HQ, I say build your own, duke it out and show competance and after sometime the MOD will anyway come down heavy to force them to merge their ops. I see it emerging that way, and there is goodness in that althought not the perfect way to reach the end point.

OTOH the current subterfuge is good way to stay below the radar of adversaries while critcal core capability takes shape and gain strength. Show your cards when most useful.

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Postby Ananth » 01 Jun 2006 09:29

Heh Heh,

So all those news items about GoI chiding IAF to stop dreaming about Aerospace command were just were public consumption, which ofcourse was dessected at that time itself. Someone wondered if wild kids on BR can realize the benefits of aerospace command then can GoI babus be far behind. Some serious thinking has gone in past 9 to 12 months. Nice timing, media busy with quotas, stock market declining, UP electioneering heating up, Unkil back peddling nuke deal, Agni put on back burner and babu silently unsheaths the sword, admires its potential and sheaths it back. No media hulla-gulla? Any independent confirmation?

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Postby JCage » 01 Jun 2006 10:04

What about the HSI (hyper spectral imaging) proposal? Is it going somewhere or is it yet another study paper?

Will only space based recce assets be part of the aerospace command or will communications come into it as well?

Any idea of whether space based ELINT sats/ Early warning sensors
(two totally different things, I know) are planned?

-JC

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Postby merlin » 01 Jun 2006 11:39

What is wrong if a service wants to invent/innovate because it has specific or unique requirements or constrain with current methods/means and it sees novel application? or force multiplication potential? That is what the services are made in the first place greater/effective force projection.

What is your heartburn since IAF is paying for it from it's own budget? Or is because IAF is not Kosher and can't have a space command of its own, while IN can apply space and RMA concepts but IAF can't.


Nothing wrong if IAF wants to "invent/innovate.....". More power to them. If IAF wants to control the assets it needs to pay for them from its own pocket. Otherwise the heartburn is that budget for other services will be reduced so that IAF can get more funding for thier baby, while operational control rests with them and *they get to decide who has priority over what".

Why do you think the CDS is stuck? Primarily because IAF feels that they will become subservient to IA's needs on matters properly in the domain of the IAF. The same argument works here but in reverse.

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Postby Singha » 01 Jun 2006 12:01

in any right thinking nation strategic assets like space based sensors are under tri-service Joint Command. Until the JC and IDS becomes a formal reality in India, I vote that this plan is meaningless.

post-Kargil what is the status of flattening and cleaning up the intel agencies into a single cohestive entity ? dawn shows the day.

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Postby Lalmohan » 01 Jun 2006 13:40

joint operations is a must if we are to get real synergies. i note from reading a report on the recent shoot down of a british helicopter in iraq that it was being crewed by 2 RN, 1 RAF, and 1 RM and taking the new RAF CO around on a familiarisation flight of his new "base". I think it was a Lynx. This kind of ground level joint ops is becoming the norm for western forces - driven by manpower shortages and frankly there is no need to replicate multiple commands and infrastructure when 1 is what you need

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Postby Aditya G » 01 Jun 2006 15:46

Admin Note: No excerpts from FORCE are to be posted till further notice!.

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Postby Harry » 03 Jun 2006 21:23

Damn. I thought they were building larger airbases and increasing hangar and tarmac area. :(

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Postby JCage » 04 Jun 2006 02:55

Harry wrote:Damn. I thought they were building larger airbases and increasing hangar and tarmac area. :(


:| :rotfl:

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Postby gauravs » 04 Jun 2006 04:14

So, let's get this straight: IAF has to share all its resources with IN and IA but not the other way around. I don't see the IN or the IA offering up any of their test ranges for IAF uses or any other facilities.

I remember during the hay days of Punjab terrorism, after a big Massacre about 50Km away from the IAF base in Sirsa, the base asked the IA force (which by the way was borrowing space from the air base for their use) if they would provide some perimeter protection. You'd think they'd help, but no, do you know the reply "The army protection is required for a picnic the army families were taking, and IAF should use it MPs for perimeter security".

I don't see anything illogical in IAF controlling space assets, with attaches from the other services chiming in. Every single successful space command in the world is controlled by AFs.

IAF could control satellites and provide access to the IA and the IN.

George J

Postby George J » 04 Jun 2006 04:44

gauravs wrote:........Every single successful space command in the world is controlled by AFs. ......


Err umm how many "successful" space commands are there? How many of them have a combined defence staff too?

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Postby asprinzl » 04 Jun 2006 05:18

George J wrote:
gauravs wrote:........Every single successful space command in the world is controlled by AFs. ......


Err umm how many "successful" space commands are there? How many of them have a combined defence staff too?



Recently, the CIA counter intelligence department discovered that optical maker Tasco had an increase in export of 20P X 50mm binoculars to Tahiti jumped by 1200 percent from a quantiy of one to twelve.

Upon deeper investigation, it was found out that Tahitian Space Command had just been set-up. Their function apparently is to gaze into the outer space and binoculars are useful for that. It is predicted that the Tahitian Space Command would be a very successful space command in the field of gazing into space using binoculars.

The Chinese manufacturer of Tasco designed optics are excited about this because according to their estimate, there is already a rush to set-up space gazing Space Commands in Galapagos, Vanuatu, Christmas Island and other island nations of Polynesia, Malenasia and Micronesia which will result in more binocular exports from Tasco.

Already, this positive prediction is causing havoc in the Chinese stock market with Tasco shares skyrocketting through the roof. In one instance, when it sky rocketted through the roof, it almost collided with a prototype J-17 Thundar flying above. The half Pakistani-half Chinese chimpanzee test pilot had to eject and landed in the compound of the Russian embassy while the Russian minister for wildlife was taking his lunch break in the compound. Thinking the pilot was some exotic animal, he promptly ordered him to be sent to Moscow zoo for captive breeding.

On another front, the economic news about binocular export is already causing millions of Chinese living in the interior migrate to where the factory is located causing massive demand for bus, train and plane tickets. Price of donkeys and buffallos had shot up too due to demand on new mode of trnasportation that would take people to the industrial zones. China's demand for oil shot up another notch putting more pressure on OPEC which caused King of Saudi Barbaria to beg President Bush to curtail the "pigmy islands" off their space ambitions which is causing so much pressure on the world oil market.

The prompt American action upon the request had cause an uproar all over the Pacific southern region which could be compared to a tsunami. There are widespread accusaiton of American bullying or hegemonism.

Meanwhile, the latest buletin from Pakistan said that their top fighter pilot sent to China has disappeared. Strangely, the same bulleting followed that ticket sales to Moscow zoo had increased by 3oo percent overnight.
Avram Sprinzl

George J

Postby George J » 04 Jun 2006 05:55

Avram:
:-?

Rest:
As GauravS pointed out there are other aerospace(y) commands out there, although their success is a bit obscure to me. And Ved & Co. are not exactly forthcoming on what they are upto. What are they trying to do here? Build something like this?

Aerospace Command and Control, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Center, at Langley AFB, Va., serves as the lead organization to integrate and influence command and control (C2) and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) for the Air Force. Its primary task is to merge air and space C2 and ISR operational and delegated systems architectures, requirements and standards in a continuing drive toward commonality. Other tasks are to build aerospace C2 and ISR modernization strategies, integrated mission area investment plans and divestment strategies, appropriate C4I Support Plans and associated programming documents, and ensure they are linked to current Air Force Modernization Planning Process, Air Force Strategic Plan and Thrust Area Transformation Plans; work with appropriate Air Force agencies and major commands to ensure training programs are developed for emerging, current and future C2 and ISR systems and concepts; and serve as the Air Force interface for establishment of all C2 and ISR related joint tactics, techniques and procedures.


Well with $400B they got enough and more peanuts to do that. We dont really have that sorta peanuts. What exactly does IAF want to control? All UAV, all remote sensing sats and all communication sats?

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Postby gauravs » 04 Jun 2006 10:53

RAF:Fylingdales; Used in conjunction with USAF for monitoring outer space and missile defence.

USSR had AF conntrolled specialized Space observation bases as well as space observation platforms on IL 18s.

The Chinese are working on one: This one will prolly be controlled by the PLA and not PLAAF.

The IAF space command can be modelled on the USAF version, on a much smaller scale though. I don't see any reason for the command not to be controlled by IAF brass with other service officers embedded.

Side note, I don't see the other two branches even talking about space control seriously, whereas the IAF is. Seems to me like a case of IAF taking the initiative and the other two services while not doing anything themselves, throwing a spanner in the nascent plans of the IAF.
If the IN and the IA want a piece of the action they should atleast say something, if the IAF has taken and interest and has openly said so, I don't see a reason for the IN/IA to be quient if they had an interest.

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Postby Ved » 04 Jun 2006 13:43

gauravs wrote:The IAF space command can be modelled on the USAF version, on a much smaller scale though. I don't see any reason for the command not to be controlled by IAF brass with other service officers embedded. .....

Side note, I don't see the other two branches even talking about space control seriously, whereas the IAF is. Seems to me like a case of IAF taking the initiative and the other two services while not doing anything themselves, throwing a spanner in the nascent plans of the IAF.
If the IN and the IA want a piece of the action they should atleast say something, if the IAF has taken and interest and has openly said so, I don't see a reason for the IN/IA to be quient if they had an interest.


Actually, I think its like this.

We know that the three Services have been at loggerheads for years on the creation of an Aerospace Command – the IAF has been trying (unsuccessfully) to convince the others that experience in aerospace matters like 3-D manoeuvering (and thinking!) that has convinced at least 4 other space faring nations that their AF’s is the logical choice to head – note, head – such a Command, with tri-service participation (can you think of ANY astronaut, ANYWHERE in the world, who was not a pilot? I don’t mean the scientific members of the mission, but the flight operating crew) It has apparently done no good to point out the various examples and precedents before us… so, apparently, a stage came when the IAF decided that they cant afford to wait any longer in addressing their purely internal (to the AF) tasks regarding the integration of Aerospace (which would need to be done by the AF in any case, as it held more than 90% of all military aerospace assets in the country), there was no longer any time to lose and a crying need to progress beyond the inter-Service stalemate was felt.

The IAF has had a small directorate looking after space applications for years; the creation of an ACAS Operations (Space) has merely raised the level within Air HQ and is purely an internal matter, meant to address the numerous issues pertaining to the AF. Certainly, where integration with the other Services are concerned, the ACAS Ops (Space) would need to ensure that necessary provisions were made. But such a move was inevitable, and would have taken place regardless of who headed the Aerospace Command (if it ever comes through!)


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