Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Y I Patel
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Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Y I Patel » 24 Jul 2001 04:12

I read this intriguing claim in Dr. Sanjay Badri-Maharaj's article in the second-last issue of BRM (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-6/sbm.html). Hope this catches SBM's eye, since I just saw his post in another thread. So Sanjay, if you read this, please enlighten. <P>Anyone else have any corroboration on this? Mandeep Bajwa where art thou? Sunil Sainis, did you come across anything indicative of this while trawling for Pak Commanders and OrBat?

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sunil » 24 Jul 2001 09:09

<BR>I haven't seen anything in the officers list but the most recent orbat put out Abhijit Bhattacharya in the Pioneer Op-Ed (July 10/11/12 2001) speaks about a division size armoured formation under IV corps(which for some reason is listed as HQed in Sialkot). That is the only time i have come across a direct reference to a third armd. div. in the PA from an indian officer. <P>The impression i have is that they have been making independent armd. bdes for a while now. <P>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sanjay » 24 Jul 2001 17:34

Hi,<BR>Pakistan's Third Armoured Division was raised in the mid-1990s. This was done in and around 1994-96. A great Pak ORBAT was done in a 1994 Asian Age piece by Pravin Sawhney.<P>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Y I Patel » 24 Jul 2001 20:28

Thanks, Sunil and Sanjay. Very interesting bit of news. Looks like this is their counter for our third strike corps. If stationed in the upper Punjab area, then looks like it can either counter an expected Indian thrust from Pathankot/Gurdaspur, or launch a strike towards the chicken's neck. <P>To me, the Rawalpindi based X corps seems like an equally likely choice - put the div in IV corps to defend, and in X corps to attack. (IV corps has had a defensive role in both wars, and X corps has mounted the most threatening thrusts towards Chaamb on both occassions.)<P>So any more details? Impressions?<P>For those interested, the article Sunil referes to is at <A HREF="http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives1/secon3.asp?cat=\opd1&d=Oped&fdnam=jul1301" TARGET=_blank>http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives1/secon3.asp?cat=\opd1&d=Oped&fdnam=jul1301</A> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Vikram Vyas (edited 24-07-2001).]

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Mandeep » 25 Jul 2001 03:19

Pakistan does not have a third armd div. They have in the last 3 years raised 2 more indep armmd bdes. But an armd div ? Indep arms bdes are more their style nowadays.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sunil » 26 Jul 2001 02:13

managed to pore through Brian Cloughley's book, he claims that the IV Corps has the equivalent of a armoured div. without a formal headquarters.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby maz » 26 Jul 2001 06:00

I think that the question of whether a 3rd armd div exists or not is rather moot given that ad hoc division sized formations can be easily formed by mixing an matching indep bdes.<BR>Besides, given the tactical situation and the fluidity of the modern day combat, ad hoc formations are commonplace.<P>I would posit that it is more important to determine if the equivalent of a 3rd armd division can be put together.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Tim » 26 Jul 2001 06:25

Ad hoc divisions are not necessarily nearly as effective as formal ones, unless they exercise together. The difference between various subdivisions of units is extremely significant, particularly as you move towards the higher formations. Most non-Western armies have trouble operating beyond the brigade level - for instance, even though Iraq had over 50 division-sized formations, over 60% (at a minimum) were incapable of coherent combined arms ops.<P>So "throwing together" a few brigades is very, very different from instituting a coherent divisional sized formation, with established lines of command and rehearsed and practiced operational parameters. <P>A very good example of an ineffective effort to coordinate a large numbers of brigade sized formations is the Iraqi assault at Khafji, early in the Gulf War.<P>Tim

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Rudra » 26 Jul 2001 07:51

But then again...whats the pressing need to <BR>have them all operate together ? <P>they might just let loose a pack of armoured<BR>brigades all over the place to confuse and<BR>hopefully draw much bigger indian response<BR>while keeping their ARS and ARN as main<BR>strike spears a few day(s) later.<P>Is the PA all-volunteer force and their<BR>officer corps better than Iraqi army ?<BR>remember the Iraqis must have lost a lot of<BR>veteran soldiers and officers -vs- Iran. and<BR>then had their comm nodes attacked and <BR>movements heavily disrupted by a huge 30day<BR>air campaign.<P>India will have none of these advantages.<BR>The technology and starting point will be <BR>much more even.<BR>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Y I Patel » 26 Jul 2001 20:00

I can understand a corps having one indep armd bde, but why three? Is it something to do with geography? India has three indep armd bdes in XVI corps, and now it seems Pak is mirroring that directly across the border...<P>I would figure that three full TOE indep armd bdes are <I>more</I> expensive than one unified div. So what would three indep bdes do for a corps mission that a unified div can't?<BR>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Subra » 26 Jul 2001 20:25

Vikram:<P>If you lookat a lot of Puki formations they all mirror Indian setup.<P>Another example take a look at the SSG

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Mandeep » 27 Jul 2001 01:41

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Subra:<BR><B>Vikram:<P>If you lookat a lot of Puki formations they all mirror Indian setup.<P>Another example take a look at the SSG </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The SSG predates our Special Forces by over 15 years.<P>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Y I Patel » 27 Jul 2001 03:47

So we seem to have:<P>(1) 2-3 recently formed armd bdes, most likely indep groups<BR>(2) northern pak Punjab is the most likely operational area for these bdes.<P>So what does that tell us about Pak strategy?<P>I am developing this as I go along, so please tell me if I am totally off course.<P>Firstly, the geography. I looked at a terrain map of the area north of the Sakargarh bulge. For those who want to follow along on a map, this is roughly<BR> _<BR> POK \ Jammu<BR> * \<BR> /<BR>Pak Punjab/ Punjab<P><BR>The * represents Sialkot (roughly)<P>On the Indian side, the Pir Panjal range is almost parallel to the IB/LOC for about a 100 km as the crow flies. The dist between the foothills and LOC is as short as 10 km in the Chicken's neck area. The rest of the area is plains. This gives a huge advantage to Pak, because the area on their side is flat plains, while we have some very uncooperative terrain consisting of Pir Panjal range and Chenab river.<P>Second, the geopolitics. Our only all-weather link to the valley passess through Pathankot - Akhnur, then northwards. Sever this link, and we can reach the valley only via Rohtang Pass and Zoji La - that too, only in good weather. (Am I correct in this appreciation?)<P>This is why we have this huge entity called XVI corps. Given that we do not have strategic depth in this area (and this is no state secret) we have to be equally strong at all points. Given that Pak can easily use armour in this area, we need to spread out our armour evenly across the entire strip, to protect ourselves from any point of attack. That is why we need three indep armd bdes. Each has its own defined area of ops, and all are placed for defensive tasks. (Remember I am thinking aloud on this, so let me know if this sounds reasonable).<P>That kind of explains why we need three indep armd bdes. But that is because of our unique geography in the area. Pak is under no such compulsions. So why does it need to mirror our deployment in the area?<P>So the next question is, are thse brigades really deployed in this area, or are they ment for someplace else?<P>Remember, we are discussing Pakistani intentions here, so no need to be shy. Indian OrBat rules don't apply Image

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Bishwa » 27 Jul 2001 05:26

<B>This is why we have this huge entity called XVI corps. Given that we do not have strategic depth in<BR> this area (and this is no state secret) we have to be equally strong at all points. </B><P>It will be interesting to know where the IAF Hind Attack Helicopters are based. Will not be surprised if atleast a squadron operates in this area.<P> But that is because of our unique<BR> geography in the area. Pak is under no such compulsions. So why does it need to mirror our<BR> deployment in the area? <P>Possibly because we always attack in this sector<p>[This message has been edited by bishwa (edited 26-07-2001).]

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sunil » 27 Jul 2001 09:53

hi,<P>> we always attack in this sector.<P>Bishwa, that was the first thing on my mind.. then i remembered this. <P><A HREF="http://www.defencejournal.com/june98/operationwindup.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.defencejournal.com/june98/operationwindup.htm</A> <P><BR>I wonder if `Wind Up' is of any relevance. <BR> <BR>Hayat is crazy.. but still the talk has always been that the `riposte' will be somewhere in AR south areas... what if it more to the north? <P>Alternately.. maybe they are going towards an army reserve centre? unlikely.. but still.. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 26-07-2001).]

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Y I Patel » 28 Jul 2001 01:53

Possibly because we always attack in this sector<BR>Hmm. There's something in this that we can develop. I was looking slightly towards the nortt, where THEY always attacked. We have always attacked towards the Sakargarh bulge. Hope the damn thing works this time - <P>\Jammu<BR>*\<BR> / Pathankot<BR>/<P>* represents Sakargarh<P>IV corps is in charge of defending the bulge. A very illuminating piece is the attack by IA in 1971, when three (weakened) prongs attacked the bulge from north, south, and east. Maybe Paks are fighting the last war(s), and want to make sure that the Indian attacks don't succeed this time - so they have three indep bdes, one for each expected direction of attack. They would use the bdes as reserves to be thrown in to counter any Indian penetration. They would want three indep bdes so that they do not have to move armour around. And as Sunil suggests, a "Wind-Up" kind of operation can be launched with two or three of these bdes acting in tandem.<P>But then again, they can do the same thing by using a unified armd div. They have the luxury of concentrating their forces without having to worry about inconvenient mountain ranges. Either way, having these armd bdes in the bulge gives them great defensive-offense flexibility.<P>Bottom line, I am inclined to conclude that the paks have a armd div equivalent (maybe even a unified armd div) for defending the bulge. We will find out what it really is only when one of our strike corps goes visiting. Its good that IA atleast knows about this div equivalent. An improvement over 65 when they did not know there was a second armd div waiting for them.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Bishwa » 28 Jul 2001 02:09

They have the luxury<BR> of concentrating their forces without having to worry about inconvenient mountain ranges. <P>They need those three brigades to watch their backs which is all round them in the shakargarh bulge unfortunately.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Badar » 28 Jul 2001 14:13

Hi,<P>I would figure that three full TOE indep armd bdes are more expensive than one unified div. So what would three indep bdes do for a corps mission that a unified div can't?<P>I would have thought the other way around. Larger combat formations like divisions tend to be more expensive than an equivalent collection of brigades because of the large number of expensive specialist support troops (Engg, signals etc) that they have on their TOE's.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sunil » 28 Jul 2001 23:27

I got this out of BC's book. <P>The pakistani army's armd. div.'s rough TOE <BR>is as follows. (Someone please correct me if i am wrong somewhere)<P>Armd Div. <P>Armd Bdes (2)<BR>(Comprising 3 Tank Regts each, each regiment contains 3-4 Sabre Sqns and has 41(mandeep)-59(BC) tanks, a squadron contain 3 sabre troops, a troop has 3 tanks ) <BR> <BR>Arty Bde (1)<BR>(Comprising 3/more Arty Regiments, each regiment has 3/more batteries (totally about 18-24 Guns, Each battery has 6-8 guns)<BR>(in pakistani army the Arty bde attached to a Armd div. usually consists of Self-Propelled guns) <P>Infantry Bde (1) <BR>(Usually a mech inf formation i.e with APCs instead of covered trucks, comprising 3/more battalions, each Bn consists of 3/more companies, each company numbers about 10-15 sections, each section numbers 15-20 men) <P>The rest of this post is my guesswork. <P>The Armd. Div also contains <P>Engg Regt(1)<BR>Medical Regt(1)<BR>Signals Regt(1) <BR>Service Corps Regt(1)<BR>Air Defence Regt (1)<BR>HQ and Admin Troop(1)<BR>Intelligence Company(1)<BR>Command Staff (??) <P>Pakistani infantry division's TOE comprises <P>Inf. Bde (3)(** corrected as per mandeep's suggestion- Thanks Mandeep). <BR> <BR>Armd Regt. (1)<BR>Arty Regt. (1) (with towed guns)<BR>Medical Regt (1) <BR>Service Corps Regt (1)<BR>Engg Company (1/2) <BR>Signals Company (1/2) <BR>Air Defence Company (1)<BR>HQ and Admin troop,<BR>Intelligence company (1),<BR>Command Staff(??) <P><BR>[This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 28-07-2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 28-07-2001).]

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Mandeep » 29 Jul 2001 02:23

The Pakistani Inf Div has 3 x Inf Bdes not just 2.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Mandeep » 29 Jul 2001 02:29

The number of tanks in a Pakistani armd regt is as follows :-<BR>1. A sabre tp has 3 x tanks<BR>2. A sabre sqn has 13 x tanks<BR> 4 x 3 tk tps<BR> 1 x control tank, used by the sqn comdr<BR>3. An armd regt has 41 tanks<BR> 3 x 13 tank sqns<BR> 2 x command tanks, CO and 2IC

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sunil » 29 Jul 2001 03:05

Mandeep,<P>Brian Cloughley mentions that there are tank regiments with 59 tanks also. <P>So if i follow your list correctly. then quite possibly there are pakistani regiments that have 4 sabre squadrons per regiment. <P>I was wondering how many recce troops are there per regiment? <P>Also are some tanks maintained in the unit reserve?<P>Brian also mentions that the tank regiments are sometimes refered to as Frontier Force Regiments (This is different from the Frontier Force Regiment of Infantry).. is this accurate? <P>Also what is a TDU in relation to a troop? <BR>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sanjay » 29 Jul 2001 04:03

Hello,<P>May I just add a twist here:<P>I learnt of the 3rd. Pak armoured div in 1994 from very reliable Indian sources who published it as part of an ORBAT given in an Asian Age weekend special entitled 'If India and Pakistan go to war' ( or something like that ). The ref. is in my book and is in the endnoted version of the BRM article.<P>On a semi-related point, and BC will never admit this, the Pak armoured units are in a serious state of disrepair and spares for the older tanks are a bit of a problem. Many armoured regiments are now down to 'bricks' of under 35 tanks.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Subra » 29 Jul 2001 04:52

Mandeep:<BR>More specifically I was referring tot he raising of SSG 221 Bn when we raised 21 sF.<P>Not the numbers too.<P>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Amitabh » 29 Jul 2001 21:23

To add to what Sanjay wrote, I was told after the Kargil war that the PA was very worried about an Indian assault a-la 1965, since its armoured formations were in poor shape logistically.<P>More recently, a Pakistani journalist told me that the budget cuts have seriously affected the PA's routine operations e.g. mess food etc. (we all remember Napoleon's dictum, right Image). Sounds implausible, but explains a lot of Musharraf's recent gestures if true!<p>[This message has been edited by Amitabh (edited 29-07-2001).]

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Mandeep » 30 Jul 2001 02:54

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sunil sainis:<BR><B>Mandeep,<P>Brian Cloughley mentions that there are tank regiments with 59 tanks also. <P>So if i follow your list correctly. then quite possibly there are pakistani regiments that have 4 sabre squadrons per regiment. <P>I was wondering how many recce troops are there per regiment? <P>Also are some tanks maintained in the unit reserve?<P>Brian also mentions that the tank regiments are sometimes refered to as Frontier Force Regiments (This is different from the Frontier Force Regiment of Infantry).. is this accurate? <P>Also what is a TDU in relation to a troop? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>1. Cloughley's info is inaccurate in many respects and where it deviates from conventional wisdom should always be taken with a liberal pinch of salt. No Pak armd regt has as many as 59 tanks.<BR>2. The same way no Pak armd regt has more than 3 x sabre sqns.<BR>3. Each armd regt has 1 x recce tp.<BR>4. Each armd regt has a wastage reserve of 10-15 tanks which are held by the ordnance depots/tank delivery units.<BR>5. The Punjab Irregular Frontier Force comprised of units of cavalry,infantry and artillery. In the Pak armd corps now the old FF regts are Guides Cavalry,11 PAVO Cavalry and 12 Sam Browne's Cavalry with a new raising 23 Cavalry also getting to use the FF designation because of the old 23 Cavalry (FF) now forming part of PAVO.<BR>6. TDUs were lt armd regts given this designation for deception purposes. These became regular armd regts after '65. Nowadays a TDU is just that; a unit with a small cadre of personnel to hold and deliver tanks from ordnance depots to armd regts. <P>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Y I Patel » 30 Jul 2001 21:31

We have two BRF gurus (Mandeep and Sanjay) politely but firmly disagreeing on whether the armoured formation is a div or a div equivalent. And a third guru (Sunil) has resolutely deployed himself on the fence. So we seem to have an impasse of LoC proportions on our hands. <P>No problem. This thread is going into interesting territory, so can I request Sunil to post his latest Pak Div-level orbat here? Would be good to get the overall picture.<P>As for the TOEs for Pak armoured divs, they are numerically close to Indian armd divs, but some critical support elements (AD and engr bdes) are significantly weaker than the Indian equivalents. This implies that they can't be used for really deep thrusts, since their range will be limited by the range of whatever air cover PAF can afford.<P>Another related and important point is that with the recent budget decreases, training will be the biggest loser. They can not cut back too much on war wastage reserves, but it is very easy to let training standards deteriorate. The aftereffects are not apparent in peacetime, and they may even delude themselves that nukes will make massive conventional battles obsolete.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby dsandhu » 30 Jul 2001 21:45

Vikram<P> I would go with Mandeep Bajwa. There is no one on the BRF who knows as much about Pak. army and its formations as Mandeep. I will go one step forward and say that Mandeep is the top among civilians in India regarding knowledge about Pak army and its formations.<P>On the other side we should know that 98 % of the Indian civilian scribes who write about defence matters hardly know a thing. The good Indian scribes you can count on the fingers of one hand.<P>JAI JAWAN<BR>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Rudra » 30 Jul 2001 21:48

I spent the weekend locating and reading all<BR>the pakdef archives. a few points:<P>- they very proud of Multan based strike<BR>corps, rating it as best non-NATO/non-israel<BR>strike corps. equipped with t_80, t_85,<BR>a beefed up ATGM force and Cobra helos.<BR>They are confident this can stop the expected<BR>indian thrust to rahim yar khan.<P>- they have roads and rail behind the indus<BR>north-south so are not really afraid of <BR>great gains by india in the sector. there is<BR>talk of linking gwader, ormara with N.Pak<BR>thru roads in NWFP, baluchistan and thru<BR>afghanistan.<P>- a new strategy seems to be attack in kutch<BR>region to threaten a breakthru into gujrats<BR>industrial heartland. some sort of armour div<BR>and a detached Cobra force is posted in that<BR>region.<P>- Cobras mainly to be used for raiding the<BR>rear of indian divs on march rather than as<BR>ATGM shooters (too few to matter). so they<BR>talk of targeting indian div/corps HQs and<BR>supply train (esp fuel truck convoys) at <BR>night using nap-of-earth and NVG and ofcourse<BR>the Cobras small profile.<P>- they are very confident about their MANPADS<BR>cover. feel IAF doesnt have enough hi-alt<BR>precision munitions to take out significant<BR>chunks of fast moving armour forces, nor IA<BR>has enuf SP artillery, so IAF will be forced<BR>to move low and fast and be in MANPADS bubble.<P>- similarly the lack of hi-alt SAMs in PA<BR>inventory is dismissed in that IAFs munitions<BR>will force planes to move low, and a <BR>infrequent jab by Mig25s can be ignored.<P>- a rumor that Mig25s are grounded due to <BR>lack of spares.<P>- they expect to make major gains in J&K<BR>using local support where available and <BR>jehadi types were not to disrupt IAs rear.<P>- they are mortally afraid and worried by<BR>IAFs pending aquisition of Phalcons and <BR>are resigned to waiting till PRC makes a <BR>indigenous one. some hot talk of exporting<BR>Shaheens to israel's neighbours as revenge<BR>but tempered by many harsh realities.<P>- Amitabh turning up there to poke them with<BR>news of P17 construction starting Image<P>- they consider the Strike corps(2) and the<BR>Agosta subs to be their pride. they are<BR>resigned to PN being in very defensive role<BR>with Agosta used for offense.<P>Thats the gist of all the threads I read.<BR>overall, there is less religion and hindoo<BR>bashing there now, they have cleaned up their<BR>act somewhat and some knowledgeable posters<BR>do exist, a few juvenile ones too. Uzair<BR>(a sometime poster here, and probably a <BR>100% lurker) is a junior admin now. SyedA<BR>is a sort of semi-active father figure...<P>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Y I Patel » 30 Jul 2001 23:45

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hi,<P> I would figure that three full TOE indep armd bdes are more expensive than one unified div. So<BR> what would three indep bdes do for a corps mission that a unified div can't?<P> I would have thought the other way around. Larger combat formations like divisions tend to be<BR> more expensive than an equivalent collection of brigades because of the large number of<BR> expensive specialist support troops (Engg, signals etc) that they have on their TOE's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's precisely why I think unified divs are <B>less</B> expensive - when you form indep bdes, you have to supply them with specialist regts like engrs, sigs and arty. And it would not just be 1/3 of a div's assets, because a div gets more out of the specialists by concentrating them. Let me give you an oudated example to fix ideas - 120 Indp Bde guarding Kargil pre-1999 had four inf batts. Regular bdes have three. Same with indep armd bdes. If you add up manpower and equipment required for three indep armd bdes, it should come to more than that required for a regular div. This, ofcourse, in an ideal army. Pak army is NOT an ideal army.<P>Rudra, thanks for the compilation. Some interesting tidbits that need to be digested. Rest is Pak bakwas. For instance, my dearest wish is that they try an armoured atack into Kutch. Please PervezJI pretty please. Meri yeh ek khwaish poori karon!<p>[This message has been edited by Vikram Vyas (edited 30-07-2001).]

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sanjay » 31 Jul 2001 03:38

Hi,<BR>Just so you know, the author of the Asian Age piece that indicated the Third Armoured Division was Major Pravin Sawhney - Indian Army retd.<BR>That's why I am forced to take such a claim seriously.<BR>If I'm wrong, gladly I'll admit it. However, the matter is, unfortunately, still up in the air.<BR>As per why I listed 8 instead of 9 Holding Corps, well that's called timing. The book was handed to the publisher before the 9th Holding corps was raised. Besides, it appears that a move to designate all Holding Corps as 'Pivot Corps'.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Mandeep » 01 Aug 2001 20:51

Thanks a ton, Dave for the compliment ! Its very welcome !

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Mandeep » 01 Aug 2001 21:09

I must compliment Rudra on his perceptive analysis collated through some very dilligent work. This is very good stuff ! Keep it coming !

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby rrikhye » 02 Aug 2001 04:45

Folks, a pleasure to read the thread - people for once trying to ferret out facts instead of everyone blasting off their opinions!<P>I'd also go unquestioningly with Mandeep, even if I am now forced o write articles and sign his name for my web magazine, because people keep asking me where he is. The shame of it all.<P>You may recall (maybe not - most of BRFF seems rather young) during the 1986-87 Winter exercises people kept talking of 3 armored divisions for India - no such thing at the time. Sometimes someone runs a CPX with an armored brigade and an infantry brigade and refers to it as an armored division or whatever, and intel picks it up, checks it out, and learns there is no new armored div, but the first info gets stuck.<P>Operating an armored div as an armored div is very, very hard and Pakistan is being sensible in going for independent armored brigades - much easier to handle. BTW, in the order of things, usually two ind. armored brigades have 80-90% of the combat battalions of an armored division.<P>The article mentioned has got an awful lot of new raisings for Pakistan and I just dont think that is happening. Mandeep alerted me to a possible new division raising around Sargodha, I honestly think that's about it since the early 1990s, and with XI Corps losing one division to FCNA, they surely need at least one to replace.<P>May I as a favor request anyone on BRF who knows who sent me money for the scenario to let them know to contact me? The draft is almost ready. I've gone through the 100th revision of the Indian orbat, and enough is enough. Writing for a hypotehtical future is very hard orbat wise because so many things are possible. Yesterday India lost Baramula to the XXIV (Afghans) Corps, a mixed Pakistan-Afghan light mountain corps, and the seige of Srinager is underway.<P>If you want confusion, wait till this scenario comes out, and some person will pick up the made-up numbers which are interspersed with the real ones, and then we are really going to have trouble in these dciscussions. There is no XXIV (Afghans) Corps, but if Pakistan had any smarts, there would be one, and I'm fairly sure some of their people have suggested it - no great enthusiasm as yet, the Pakistanis feel they dont need anyone's infantry. That may change because such a corps would cost a third of a regular Pakistani corps. Anyhows, back to work.

rrikhye
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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby rrikhye » 02 Aug 2001 07:18

Oh this American mania for renaming everything. The whole point of a corps is it is a general purpose formation and should not be named strike or holding or pivot or anything.<P>Anyways: pivot (IMHO) suggests that (1) it can attack or defend; (2) it can move to the left or right to face threats or take advantage as needed; (3) it can switch roles quickly.<P>Since all army corps are supposed to do this anyway, I dont know why anyone is bothering to give a special name.<P>The old Indian system of strike and holding corps was also named in a silly way. All corps attack when the need arises, and all hold when the need arises.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sanjay » 03 Aug 2001 06:34

Hi,<P>Mr. Rikhye, I have to recommend the piece to you and perhaps you can independently verify or not whether it is correct.<P>Asian Age: 12-13 November 1994,<BR>"If India and Pakistan go to War" by Major Pravin Sawhney who was then the Asian Age's Defence correpsondent. Incidentally, Sawhney left the army in 1988-89 or so.<P>Any author must cite sources and when the most recent ORBAT then published of the Pak. army indicates its formations as such, I regret to say that I cannot unquestionly ignore anything.<P>To quote directly from you:<BR>"Readers are assured that the figures given here are more authentic but nonetheless, not 100% accurate."<BR>( R.Rikye, 'The War that Never Was', p.48 )<P>The same dilemma confronts me. <P>Mandeep may well be correct for his efforts in ascertaining the Pak ORBAT are most impressive. Yet, one must also weigh the point that Sawhney is no fool. Regretably, ORBAT for publication cannot be given on 'feeling'. <P>On a much more practical note, at the time the thing was being compiled, Mandeep was not around ! The ORBAT was done in 1996-98.<P>Be that as it may, I have telephoned the author of the ORBAT ( Sawhney ) and he as indicated very strongly that the ORBAT is more or less accurate. So, once again I am back to where I started. <P>Rakesh, as per the 'Pivot Corps' redesignation, in 1999/2000, the Indian army doctrine was altered again. Details are still very sketchy. However, it appears that old ideas are being re-assessed for their viability. One of the things that Poorna-Vijay dealt with was the continuing viability of the DCB defences. <P>Mandeep, how about this, drop me an e-mail and let us compare some notes on this stuff ?<P>As per the third Armoured Division, reading some pieces from the period, it was indicated that the 3rd. Armoured Div was to be formed to accomodate the T-80UD tanks. <BR>In other words, the Pakistanis were going to raise a new formation to mass its new tanks.<P>ORBATs are strange things and I must also say, as those who know me ( Rakesh and Rupak in particular ) that I am not an ORBAT fanatic and tend to rely on the figures generated by those I trust ( makes it easier to footnote {could you imagine a footnote saying "ORBAT entirely made up by author from confidential sources ?"} and it also prevents my personal opinions colouring these things ).<P>Two developments that may be of interest to Forum members:<P>1) A large number of T-55s are being earmarked for R&O battalions in the Indian army. Variants of the BMP-2 are also being used.<P>2) NBC Recce vehicles may soon be part of all divisional formations.<P>As an aside, it appears that the manufacture of NBC respirators in India is the primary responsibility of a private sector firm called Joseph Leslie Draeger, which operates with German technology. Not strictly relevant to this thread, but I thought those who're reading this would be interested.<P>[This message has been edited by Sanjay (edited 02-08-2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Sanjay (edited 02-08-2001).]

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby dsandhu » 03 Aug 2001 20:44

Here's a 90's Pak Orbat (This too lists only 2 Armoured Divs along with a number of indep. armoured brigades)<BR> <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/israindia/pak_army_orbat.html" TARGET=_blank>http://members.tripod.com/israindia/pak_army_orbat.html</A> <P>[This message has been edited by dsandhu (edited 03-08-2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by dsandhu (edited 03-08-2001).]

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sanjay » 03 Aug 2001 20:55

"With the induction of 300 T-80-UD tanks one can expect the raising of one more armoured division."<P>This is a direct quote from the ISRA ORBAT - which is quite good ( as far as the army goes, not so good wrt. missiles ).<P>It reinforces the period articles which had pointed to the raising of the 3rd. Armoured Div to accomodate the T-80UDs.<BR>Also, the ORBAT given is not that different to the one I used. <P>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sunil » 03 Aug 2001 21:40

<BR>The link by sandhu is great.hats off to Col(R) ludra. <P>A comment on the link Sandhu provided: <P>"With the induction of 300 T-80-UD tanks one can expect the raising of one more armoured division. However just by itself the armoured division would be useless. So one can expect the raising of at least one more Mechanised Division. For the latter there would be a need fore at least 500 more Armoured Personnel Carriers. While there is no doubt that this will be a major economic burden but using of Narcotic funds Pakistan will be able to meet this requirement. The employment of this Corps with the new armoured and mechanised Infantry Division would most likely be as the Army Reserve Central. "<P>to use a phrase native to my city.. "tukka lag gaya.." <P>So i guess the `Al-Khalid' and the `Al-Zarrars' will be used to fill up the spaces in these old regiments, and the new T-80UDs will go into a new formation. <P>But what/where are the 500 APCs they are going to use? There is a shortage of M113 spares so it can't be M113s. I think it is time to look at the PLA inventory, quite possibly if the PLA has a new apc in the bag, they will sell off their old apc's after a little refurbishing and the pakistanis will rename it `Al-Bakwas' and then pass if off as `indigenious'.. <P>This comment about drug money reminds me of a post made a poster under the name `Strikecrop' on pakdef. The poster claimed that he had been/was a serving army officer and that as long as there was drug money, the PA had no need to fear loss of conventional readiness. At the time I thought he was out of his mind but looks like he was not too far off the mark. <P>Back in the Afghan war days, the National Logistics Cell of the PA coordinated the drug for money schemes. PA officers were later arrested trafficing drugs. In both cases the officers escaped from custody and were never heard from again. This NLC is still active today, and is headed by Imtiaz Shaheen, if the PA is getting drug money/revenue from afghanistan, then it seems plausible that the NLC is in the middle of that racket. <P>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Rudra » 03 Aug 2001 21:57

<A HREF="http://www.webspawner.com/users/andrewkcartillery/index.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.webspawner.com/users/andrewkcartillery/index.html</A> <P>maybe PAs next standard APC. <A HREF="http://www.webspawner.com/users/andrewkcafvapc/index.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.webspawner.com/users/andrewkcafvapc/index.html</A> <P>All tne above has been available for a while.<BR>But the lack of new purchases of heavy arty,<BR>APCs, MLRS systems on cash basis from PRC<BR>seems to indicate a gross lack of funds over<BR>the last 10 yrs. or maybe the funds were<BR>stolen or diverted to terrorist campaign.<P>The PRC so far seems unwilling to donate <BR>free hardware like the ex-USSR used to give<BR>their client states.<P>Maybe its because the PRC items are not <BR>good enough for the PAs liking or production<BR>shortages or the PA tankers have most clout<BR>so only tank pgms get funds?<P>


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