Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

dsandhu
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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby dsandhu » 08 Aug 2001 21:10

According to Mandeep's posts<P>The distribution id tanks in an IA Armoured Regiment is:<P>30 Tanks<BR>15 Training tanks ( are fully operational during war)<BR>10 tanks as reserves (mechanical and attrition)<P>Pak army armoured regiments have on the other hand<P>41 tanks<BR>10-15 tanks was mechanical and attrition reserve. These tanks are not directlt with the regiments but are are held at various ordinance depots.<P>So in theory each regiment has between 50-56 tanks<P>IA generally has an "overflow" of tanks in its Vijayanta equiped regiments.<P><BR>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Bishwa » 08 Aug 2001 21:51

dsandhu,<BR> 1. if we go with 55 tanks per regiment<BR> 2. PA having 2285 tanks<P> Their number of regiments comes to 42 only.<P> This does not match with the following calculation that sunil put out<BR><B><BR> 3 X Armd. Div = 3 X (2 X 3) = 18 Armd Regts.<BR> 7 X (I)Armd. BDes= 7 X 3 = 21 Armd Regts.<BR> 19 X Inf. Div = 19 X 1 = 19 Armd Regts. <BR></B><BR> <BR> Which means either<BR> 1. They have much more than 2285 tanks (about 3190 actually)<BR> 2. Quite a few of their infantry divs dont have armd regiments attached. With this assumption the figures add up.<BR> 3. They dont have 55 tanks per regiment<P> Also are the Vijayanta Regiments usually alloted to the holding divisions? Do we have a breakup of the number of tanks for training and attrition/maintenance in a Vijayanta regiment?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by bishwa (edited 08-08-2001).]

dsandhu
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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby dsandhu » 08 Aug 2001 22:39

Bishwa<BR> You have raised some good points<BR>Going about the Pak army tank figures posted on the web the army has<BR>200 T-85 II<BR>51 T-55<BR>250 T-69<BR>1200 T-59<BR>100 T-60/63<BR>450 M48<P>There is no mention of the T-80's . so this look like the figures are wrong and the number of various tanks could be up or down.<BR>Brian C. in his book puts the number of tanks per regiment at 59, which again would be wrong as per Sunil's calculations.<P>As you have suggested that some of the Pak infantry divs may not have and armoured regiment, this may not be true on the other hand as each inf. div would have an armoured regiment, but some of the armoured regiments would be under strength.<P> Also the point comes up that wastage or attrition reserves group of 10-15 tanks kept at ordnance depots may be for 2 regiments?<P>My knowledge of Pak army is extremely limited and maybe Ravi, Mandeep, Sanjay or Sunil could shed more light on this.<BR>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Bishwa » 08 Aug 2001 23:52

dsandhu,<BR> One possibility is that<BR>1. The Quetta based Corp,the Peshawar based corp and some divisions in the kashmir area do not have armoured regiments at all.<P> The PA must have taken their armoured regiments and grouped them into independent armoured brigades which are placed near the indian border already. This was if those corps have to move the heavy equipment is already in place.<P> That would account for 7-8 armoured regiments and might explan why they have so many independent armoured brigades.<P> Remember the PA has one independent armoured brigade per corp. These can be easily made out by taking the 1 armoured regiment from the divisions under it and clubbing them together.<BR>2. Some of the other infantry divisions do have armoured regiments but they are in bad shape. This adds up to what Sanjay and Amitabh said about the state of some armoured <BR>regiments.<BR> <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by bishwa (edited 08-08-2001).]

dsandhu
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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby dsandhu » 09 Aug 2001 03:22

Bishwa<P>I should have looke earlier at Col. K. Ludra's Pak Orbat , the link to which I have provided on the first page<P>The Tanks are as follows<P>M-47 15<BR>M-48M 250 approx 5 regiments, approx 50 tanks per regiment<BR>T-59 1200 approx 24 regiments, approx 50 tanks per regiment<BR>T-69 250 approx 5 regiments, approx 50 tanks per regiment<BR>t-85 200 approx 4 regiments, approx 50 tanks per regiment<BR>T-80 300 approx 6 regiments, approx 50 tanks per regiment<P>By this table Mandeep's figure of 41 tanks and 10 attrition reserves looks good.<P> You are right in stating the the Pak army units deyployed in the Skardu and surroubnding areas would not have tanks with them.<P>Also some of the Pak armour regiments are rumoured to be understrength and this may be done by milking them to raise additional regiments along with bleeding the attrition reserve tanks.<P>By any analysis the number of tanks in a Pak regiment does not equal Brian C's number of 59. ( This may be the theoritical strenght on paper and no one in the field cares about it.)

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Bishwa » 09 Aug 2001 03:33

dsandhu,<BR> As per this figures they must be having 2215 tanks in 44 regiments. However the Col credits them with having 2350 tanks. I was wondering if he confused the M47s figures of 15 with 150. Then the figures would really add up.<P> Assuming his figures of 2350 is correct. That will be 47 regiments.<P> This could be in<BR> 3 X Armd. Div = 3 X (2 X 3) = 18 Armd Regts.<BR> 7 X (I)Armd. BDes= 7 X 3 = 21 Armd Regts.<BR> 8 X Inf. Div = 8 X 1 = 8 Armd Regts.<P> Thus 9 of their infantry divisions do not have armoured regiments. This must be the Peshawar, Quetta and Skardu based divisions. Their armoured egiments must have been clubbed into 3 independent armoured brigades<BR> <BR> Either that or they dont have a 3rd Armoured Div equivalent.<P> Anybody with info on this ? Mandeep, Ravi et al?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by bishwa (edited 09-08-2001).]

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Bishwa » 10 Aug 2001 19:58

Mapdeep, Ravi, Sunil, Rupak et al<P>Do you have any info on this?

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby dsandhu » 10 Aug 2001 20:32

From all the write up in this thread and other articles on the web, it looks like that the PAK army initially floated the idea of a 3rd armoured div, but no admin or tactical HQ for the 3rd armoured div exists. Pak army is more happy with the indep. armoured brigade setup. Though they may have on paper a formation of an adhoc 3rd armoured div in time of war by combining some indep brigades but the 3 armoured div does not exist as such.<P>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby ArunK » 10 Aug 2001 21:05

Folks, I just picked this scap up from a post on another forum. I just thought that I would post it here..<P>Sunil, if there is anything new here you may want to update, else please ignore. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><P>9 GOC Corp Commanders……<P><BR>Lt Gen Ghulam Mustafa – I corp Mangla<BR>Lt Gen Syed Amjad - II Corp Multan<BR>Lt Gen Mohd Aziz khan IV Corp Lahore…<BR>Lt Gen Tariq Waseem Ghazi V Corp Karachi<BR>Lt Gen Jahansher Gulzar X Xorp rawalpindi….<BR>Lt Gen Ehsanul Haq XI Corp Peshawar<BR>Lt Gen Mushtaq Hussaini XII Corp Quetta<BR>Lt Gen Abdul Qadir Baloch XXX Corp Gujranwalla<BR>Lt Gen Muneir Hafiz XXXI Corp Bhawalpur ….<P>Principal Staff officers….<P><BR>Gen Pervez Musharraf COAS<BR>Lt Gen Muzaffar Usmani Deputy COAS<BR>Lt Gen mohd Yusuf Khan CGS<BR>Lt Gen Ahsan Saleem Hatyat – QuarterMaster General<BR>Lt Gen Ali Mohd Jan Orakzai - Adjutant General <BR>???????? - Master general Ordinance <BR>???????? - Air Defense Command …..<BR>Lt Gen Mahmood Ahmed - DG ISI<BR>Lt Gen Ghulam Muhammad - Chief of Staff to COAS or CE<BR>Lt Gen Javed Hasan - Command NDC<BR>Lt Gen Khalid maqbool - Chairman NAB<BR>Lt Gen Tauqeer Zia - IG Trainig and Eval / Chairman PCB<BR>Lt Gen Imitiaz Shaheen - Chief of Logistics Command<BR>Lt Gen Tariq Majeed - Chief Military Intelligence…..<BR>Lt Gen Abdul Qayyum - Chief PDF Wah<BR>Lt Gen Hamid Javed - Chief heavy Industries Taxila …<BR>Maj Gen Asfaq Kiyani - DG military operations….<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby rrikhye » 10 Aug 2001 22:36

Hi, folks.<P>(1) The listing of corps commanders, senior commanders is probably from a list Sunil made for orbat.com and then updated by Babar.<P>(2) If you dont mind my saying this, we shouldn't get too exercised about how many tanks there are with Pakistan. No one will know for sure except the Pakistan Army. You can take a range, say 2000-2500, and work with that. <P>(3) Quite possible that some of the divisions dont have integral armored regiments. Often what happens is that - say - a new armored brigade gets authorized and raised. The new equipment for it may not arrive for some time from the factory or from imports. So you raise the brigade anyway, by shorting other units. Then you fill out the brigade and replace the tanks taken from other units.<P>(4) You can be doing multiple models of tanks for many reasons. Having just one is best, of course. Your factory may not have the capacity to turn out more without major investment and - say - three years lead time. So if Country X is offering a good deal, you go ahead and buy a different model from them. You also end up in situations where the other guy says: Sorry, I'm having problems paying you for the machinery I bougt from you, why dont I trade you these nice new tanks I have in place of the cash you wanted. In the long run this is not a good idea, but weapon purchase deciion making is pretty messed up in most countries. Remember at one time we had the AMX-13, Centurion, Sherman, and T-54/55. For the size of the armored corps in 1971 this was absurd. But it happens. Just keep in mind Pakistan is both rebuilding older tanks and making new ones.<P>The whole concept of keeping your forces at full-strength, ready to fight at a moment's notice, is for the rich countries. For others, having your armed forces in various stages of readiness is quite common, as is taking six months to get ready for war.<P>Understrength units are not good, but that doesn't mean they cant fight. If some regiments have 32 tanks as Sanjay says, you can do two squadrons, or keep three squadrons but with only three troops instead of four. So the unit is not as effective as a full 44 tank regiment. In the military, you have to make do with what you're given.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby rrikhye » 10 Aug 2001 22:47

Sorry, folks - completely forgot to mention that the site Sunil saw that gave the makeup of a Pak Armd Brigade? The gentleman got his info from BRF and orbat.com, and his site is for wargamers, so the unit TOs cannot be taken too literally. Still, there is a generic similarity between units in India and Pakistan, so if you took 3 companies per mechanized battalion, you'd be right. Where one needs better info. is in issues like:<P>(1) Are the company HQs given one APC or two?<BR>(2) Do the forward maintenence detachments have APCs or wheels?<BR>(3) Are the battalion mortars tracked or wheeled?<BR>(4) Ditto ATGMs<BR>(5) Does the medical platoon have tracks or wheels?<BR>(6) Didto the FOOs<BR>(7) Does the signals platoon have tracks or wheels<BR>(8) Ditto reconnaissance platoon<P>Etc etc etc.<P>At a minimum, you could equip a functional mechanized battalion with 43 tracked vehicles. On the other hand, if you had the money, you could easily need 70, and if you shifted to a 4-company organization you'd need 85.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby shyamala » 11 Aug 2001 05:27

Dumb quesiton?<BR>think it is war! How many anti tank missiles we have now to clear out all paki tanks. How many of these missiles we have can be air delivered? And our capabilities - equip, time and effort? -tnx

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby bagha » 11 Aug 2001 12:17

scenario:<BR>pak strike corps detected(accidentally, recon plane, sat maybe). <BR>para long range recon team air dropped. they track the column from a (safe?) distance and keep tracking it till it comes to rest. all along they are in radio silence.<BR>when the column stops. an encrypted signal is transmitted giving the GPS co-ordinates of the column.<BR>then an IAF strike package comes to deliver the gifts.<BR>what could mess up this nice little tale is strong SA weapons presence.<BR>but assuming that there is radar controlled weapons then the IAF pack could use anti radiation missiles to silence those....<BR>for the IR missiles........<BR>does IAF have planes and missiles that could attack from beyond the IR sam envelope?<BR>how could the Para team help in target acquisition?<BR>what could the defending team do to prevent a special forces team from tracking it?<BR>finally. would a strike column STOP?

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Rudra » 11 Aug 2001 20:20

Given that the column would be moving along<BR>a road usually, how do you think a para<BR>team will keep up with them in the countryside? this is not the desert.<P>so best bet is UAVs and hi-alt recon.<BR>------<BR>I had asked a question on warships1.com<BR>message board about US and PRC divs. I assume<BR>PRC divs are organized along Russian lines ?<P>the replies:<BR>US infantry div: 2 mech infantry brigade,<BR> 1 armor brigade<P>US armour div: 2 armor brigade, 1 mech infantry.<P>(they seem to have no foot soldiery!)<P>US infantry div: 18,500 men, 216 tanks<BR>and 72 SP howitzers + MLRS troop.<BR>( 5 batallion mech infantry, 4 tank batallions)<P>US tank batallion: 500 men, 54 tanks.<P>(probably untold number of 10-t HEMTT<BR>trucks as supply chain, tens of supply<BR>and logistic helos, a organic gunship<BR>troop too ?)<BR> <A HREF="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/hmett.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/hmett.htm</A> <P>M1 being trucked. <A HREF="http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/vehicles/oshkosh/oshkosh2.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/vehicles/oshkosh/oshkosh2.html</A> <BR>--<BR>soviet MRD: 13800 men, 272 tanks, 108 SP guns.<P>Does the PRC "fist div" setup match the<BR>Russian in terms of manpower and capital<BR>equipment ? <P>Also how does a PA armour div compare ? <P><p>[This message has been edited by Rudra Singha (edited 11-08-2001).]

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby bagha » 11 Aug 2001 20:48

you are absolutely correct rudra.<BR>i had a picture of the desert in mind while thinking of that scenario.<BR>but if we get real time info about the column movement using high altitude recon or UAV recon, THEN could the IAF take the sting off an armoured attack?<BR>considering Pak would be attacking in kashmir wouldnt the need for roads for tank movement provide India with the right condition for creating a bottleneck? like blowing up roads and bridges etc.<BR>what i cant understand is why inspite of having air superiority and in case of an attack, having the time and place of our choosing, cant the airforce DESTROY any Pak armoured column? Especially when the column has to follow roads.<BR>and if that can be done, then why is pak investing so much money in tanks when we know pakis are bloody masterful at making each rupee stretch to the last paisa.<BR>finally do we have any equivalent of the AGM-65 maverick missiles? they would make the life of tank hunting formations easier??

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby dsandhu » 11 Aug 2001 23:38

This thread is about Pak raising a 3rd armoured div or not. Lets keeps it to the primary concept and please dont post any air chair plots etc involvinf IAF Paf scuds etc.<P>Vikram<BR>Thanks for starting the thread. It has been a interestering one for a long long time on BRF. Thanks to all member who made this interesting and lets not wait for another long time for another interesting thread to come up on the BRF.<P>JAI HIND

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby bagha » 12 Aug 2001 05:18

yes dsandhu this definitely is a thread about pakistan raising a third armoured division. this is an interesting thread because members have been discussing the possible influences this could have on the battlefield. who gives a damn if Pakistan raises 30 divisions to parade in islamabad. the reason why this thread has attracted so much attention and input is because of the battle field implications of such a situation like role, numbers and deployment. so are we going to label all those who speculated on the possibilities as armchair generals and ask them to shut up?<BR>or are armchair generals welcome here but armchair second lieutenants like me despised?<BR>grand strategies like what you love, are well..... grand, but the assault at Longewal was not stopped by some great pincer movement but bluff and some great shooting by the IAF.<BR>So if i'm asking about the airforce's capabilities w.r.t their ability to dodge defences and attack a tank column, then why is it suddenly objectionable?<BR>the assault at longewal, the counter attack at Sialkot(?), half of the iraqi armour were destroyed from the air, and now if i ask what can the IAF do in the manpad intense paki camp, then you complain that it is not grand enough to be discussed on BR. <BR>so what's the criteria? if it doesnt involve a million men and 500 a/c combined with tactical and strategic SSMs then please dont mention it on BR?????<BR>Besides i didnt see "admin" against your name...<BR>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Bishwa » 13 Aug 2001 20:16

I support dsandhu on this. let us keep this thread focused on the subject of the thread please.

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sunil » 13 Aug 2001 20:33

Bagha,<P>please take the scenarios outside, keep this down to numbers and sources only. <P>Guys,<P>I would it be proper to expect that the M47/48 regts are weakest (in numbers?) If so then it may be possible to spread the numbers around thinly enough. <P>Is SJCollins' assumption that each regt contains only one type accurate? or are there mixed regts.? (i can't see any reason why T-55 and T-59s can't be in the same regt.)<P>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Bishwa » 14 Aug 2001 08:57

Well I would certainly not want to mix:<P>1. Petrol driven tanks with diesel driven tanks if possible<BR>2. Smooth bore with rifled tanks if possible since the type of ammo they fire might differ<BR>3. 100 MM gun tank with a 125 MM gun tank.<P>Is the M47/48s still petrol driven? If so makes sense to keep them together.<P>Do the T59s and the T55s have the same gun? DO they fire similar ammo?

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sunil » 14 Aug 2001 11:11

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bishwa:<BR><B>Well I would certainly not want to mix:<P>1. Petrol driven tanks with diesel driven tanks if possible<BR>2. Smooth bore with rifled tanks if possible since the type of ammo they fire might differ<BR>3. 100 MM gun tank with a 125 MM gun tank.<P>Is the M47/48s still petrol driven? If so makes sense to keep them together.<P>Do the T59s and the T55s have the same gun? DO they fire similar ammo?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My last post should have read T-55 and T-69 (they are similar) <P>M48A5s PA has are according to FAS diesel driven. <P>T-84/80UD are diesel,125mm smoothbore and MBT2000 is also diesel and has a 125mm smoothbore gun<P>fas seems to think that the T80/T84UD delivery is behind schedule. <BR>

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Re: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?

Postby Sunil » 27 Aug 2001 20:24

<A HREF="http://www.dawn.com/2001/08/27/top9.htmTAXILA," TARGET=_blank>http://www.dawn.com/2001/08/27/top9.htmTAXILA,</A> Aug 26: In yet another major breakthrough, the Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF), Wah, has started manufacturing all types of ammunition for the Pakistan-built mainfield battle tank Al-Khalid and Ukrainian-manufactured T-80 UD tanks. <P>The ammunition being manufactured at POF, Wah, includes 100mm, 105mm and 125mm guns fitted on these tanks. <P>Highly-placed sources told Dawn that Pakistan has also started manufacturing the shells of T-80UD Ukrainian tanks. <P>Pakistan has about 800 Ukrainian tanks, the ammunition for which is being provided by the USA and some European countries. <P>Sources said that Islamabad would also share technology for manufacturing ammunition used in T-80UD Ukraine tanks with Beijing. In this connection the head of the Chinese state-run arms and ammunition production firm M/s NORINCO had also visited Pakistan and signed a memorandum of understanding. <P>Sources further added that Pakistan is already providing technology for the manufacture of 12.7mm anti-aircraft guns, which have proved more effective and accurate in Siachen. This ammunition is also being manufactured at POF. <P>The POF earned US$20 million through export of arms during the fiscal year 2000-2001. <P>A source said that since Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT), the manufacturer of Al-Khalid tank, would be rolling-out 50 tanks annually, it had become essential to get self-sufficient in ammunition needed for it. <P>


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