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New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

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New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby member_201 » 24 Jun 2002 08:22

This is good news indeed! I started a seperate thread cause this is BiG and REALLY good news.

<img src="http://mod.nic.in/samachar/june15-02/image/28b.jpg" alt="" />

At a solemn ceremony, Lt Gen GS Sihota, GOC-in-C marked the raising of 41 Artillery Division by presenting Maj Gen RS Jambusarwalla, MG, Artillery, Southern Command a trophy. With the raising of the Artillery Division, a long-felt need of synergised fire-power for Southern Command has been fulfilled.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Div » 24 Jun 2002 08:36

Will they field the usual hardware?

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby JTull » 24 Jun 2002 08:57

Where will they field the hardware? I think there must be a good reason for this but I don't know the answer. Could someone elaborate on possibilities because I don't see them chuking shells into the sea.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby member_201 » 24 Jun 2002 09:00

Actually Sanjay will know more on this issue and I am sure he will shed some light on this.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Badar » 24 Jun 2002 10:24

Hi,

What role exactly will the artillery divisions play in the subcontinent?

Is this a fully integrated manaveour division or a collection of independent (and independently deployed) brigades sharing a common logistic and perhaps targeting infrastruture?

What new capabilities will the artillery division afford us that is not currently achievable with the independent artillery brigades of the corps artillery?

Is it reasonable to assume that in the future, as resources permit, all strike corps would be composed of a arm'd, a mech and an art division at its core? Or is this artillery division an one-off kind of thing for a niche role?

Does this heavy concentration of firepower mean that we are preparing to assault heavily built up positions headlong (as those in most of southern jammu and punjab)? i.e. would kursk kind of battle be the template for the next full scale indo-pak war?

If the artillery division is indeed designed to smash set piece defenses, then what will its role be when a desired breakthrough has been achieved? Will it be fragmented into its contituent brigades? If not is it mobile enough, considering that most guns are towed, to keep up with the strike corps after the breakthrough?

Many questions. Any answers?

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Mohan Raju » 24 Jun 2002 10:35

Badar:

Excellent questions. In particular, I am interested in the question: what, in practice, is the difference between having an Arty Div, which presumably acts as a composite formation, and having three (or whatever number) independent Arty Bdes under Corps Control?

YIP? Sanjay? Johann? Anyone?

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Jagan » 24 Jun 2002 11:50

Mohan,

AFAIK, inaddition to the Corps having indep arty brigades (which some corps may have and others may not), what is a certainity is the prescense of Arty Bdes in all the div formations.

All inf and mtn divs have an arty bde each (Ex. 54 Inf Div has a 54 Arty bde in its orbat, 4 Mtn Div has a 4 Arty Bde on its orbat etc).. ofcourse the corps can have additional arty bdes too as it sees fit.

In the light of this we should set about finding anwsers to Badar's queries. my main concern/query is would a Arty Division have the same level of flexibility that an Inf Division have employing its artillery brigade. i.e will the Arty div be at one place or will it have its resources dispersed across the entire front where the corps is deployed? Does this div form part of the strike corps or is it one of the regular corps components..etc..anwsers welcome.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby kirtisimha » 24 Jun 2002 14:35

Badar - What new capabilities will the artillery division afford us that is not currently achievable with the independent artillery brigades of the corps artillery?
This endeavour I think is primarily focussed on bringing our strategic weapons into the a commom grid for concentrated firepower. In other words the batteries, regiments and brigades will also co-ordinate with missile groups in a common grid. The 333 missile group based in secunderabad that handles Prithvi missiles has been placed under this division. It is also likely that new missile groups may be raised and placed under this division.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Div » 24 Jun 2002 17:12

I was hoping that this might be the start of getting the Pinaka into active service...its been in 'user testing' for the longest time.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby advitya » 24 Jun 2002 18:23

Originally posted by Div:
I was hoping that this might be the start of getting the Pinaka into active service...its been in 'user testing' for the longest time.
See the problem is that the Army wants a BM-21/LRAR type dispersion at the Pinaka's max range. So all that haggling is holding it up.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Vick » 24 Jun 2002 18:48

How likely is the creation of a new arty div connected with the intelligenceonline.com's report that the IA is going for 500 SP arty, aka Bhim?

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby advitya » 24 Jun 2002 18:55

Originally posted by Vick:
How likely is the creation of a new arty div connected with the intelligenceonline.com's report that the IA is going for 500 SP arty, aka Bhim?
Quite unlikely. This is because 500 SP artillery would be put into the Corps and Divisional Arty Bdes of the Strike Formations. Indeed the number 500 equals the minimum number of tubes required for our Strike formations. The Artillery Divisions would field tube artillery only as a residual component.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Rudra » 24 Jun 2002 19:25

er, I believe we are phasing in pinaka by retiring
about 1 or 2 worn out BM-21 regiments each year.
my estimates should have us reach 3 regiments by
end of 02.

but we likely do not have AT bomblets yet, just
the usual HE, cluster.

in all phasing in like trishul, pinaka, nag, akash
you will only see trickles due to less funds for
volume replacement.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Peeyoosh » 24 Jun 2002 19:43

I guess any of the following could be good reasons:

1. Induction of threater level weapons such as Smerch, Pinaka, Prithvi

2. Creating a heavy arty division for frontl assualt or close to saturation bombing of restricted segments of the IB.

Note this does not mean that we strip brigades of their arty. Light guns and some dedicated heavies for counter battery fire will always be available at the brigade level I presume, but the division level tubes would be an additional resource. In times of stress brigade level command hates giving up their resources to a central pool - its not great for morale and impacts prepared plans and efficiency - if a central pool of tubes is needed, its a good idea to create one, rather than strip briagdes.

I guess we will know as the composition emerges, but their is no reason why it could not have MBRLs and heavy tubes as brigades. My guess is the tubes would be towed not SP, SP tubes belong to the mobile divisions and defensive brigades.

Is this a consequence of the Bofors in Kargil?

Peyeoosh

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Vick » 24 Jun 2002 19:52

If this new div is for the role mentioned by peeyosh, then would the announcement of the winner of the towed (truck mounted) competition be far behind? I fully expect it to be the South Africans that come out winner. Their G5-2000 is clearly one of the best out there.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby CPrakash » 24 Jun 2002 20:44

Originally posted by peeyoosh chadda:
Note this does not mean that we strip brigades of their arty. Light guns and some dedicated heavies for counter battery fire will always be available at the brigade level I presume, but the division level tubes would be an additional resource. In times of stress brigade level command hates giving up their resources to
You mean to say strip divisions of their arty.. The Arty Bde commander does not have much say in employment of his resources..Only the Div Commander does after he consults with the Inf Bde commanders.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby advitya » 24 Jun 2002 20:57

It is concievable that the the artillery division will provide a pool of scarce resources, however SP artillery is unlikely to be a part of this. To do so would deprive the strike formations of their mobility and flexibilty. From the perspective to holding tube artillery, anything the divisions hold will be deloployed in 'reserve' and is hence likely to be towed.

CPrakash is correct in stating the Arty Bde commander has no say in the employment of his Bde, that decision is made by Div or Corps Commander in consultation with those recieving fire support.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Rudra » 24 Jun 2002 21:10

For the forthcoming large 52cal reequip, how
many numbers is IA looking at ? will all of these
be on trucks or some will be towed(with APU) ?

will a trucked G-5 for instance be called SP
arty or just the tracked Bhim ones?

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Peeyoosh » 24 Jun 2002 21:22

Guys

I put that badly - fire support at the heavy gun level has to be requested from the division, its not a brigade commnders resource, but most inf. brigade commnders plan with divisional arty's availability in mind.

Removing that resource, does not leave them (or often, the divisional commander) happy, even if they have to live with it.

During Kargil, tubes and shells were removed from existing divisions to provide the fire support needed, and many people were unhappy about it.

Divisional arty is a pretty valuable resource, they usually know the lie of the land, have ranges (often) marked out, observation posts set up etc.

On the SP artillery - the mobile divisions need it, but its a great asset in defense too, not just offence, especially tarcked and lightly armoured SP guns - tracked 155s would be great for handling any Paki armour other than the Paki T-90s.

Peeyoosh

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby advitya » 24 Jun 2002 22:09

Originally posted by peeyoosh chadda:
tracked 155s would be great for handling any Paki armour other than the Paki T-90s.
Tracked 155s would be great for handling any armour..period.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Johann » 24 Jun 2002 22:50

Mohan & Jagan,

It should be noted that no new artillery regiments have been raised - only a division HQ. A Prithvi missile regiment and existing artillery brigades (I'm not yet sure where from exactly) will be brought under it.

Several Indian sources have stressed that this is an operational as well as administrative command. It would oversee preparation and execution of complex (in terms of time, space and volume) deep fire plans, with the rest of the army as supporting arms- In other words conducting offensive operations without crossing the IB. But dont imagine a division's worth of assets assembled axle to axle. There's no need for that - in fact facing an opponent with counter battery radar that would be quite inadvisable. The C4ISR improvments for artillery once completed should make an enormous difference in target identification, responsiveness and the ability to concentrate fires while allowing even greater dispersal. Things like enveloping time-on-target missions across a 300 km front will become far more doable.

Of course the same advantages would be just as welcome if XXI Corps was preparing to roll across the IB. The Strike Corps and Southern Command commanders gain extra punch -especially if some of the brigades are coming from another command- with extra flexibility. C2 and planning wise the new formation should be a great improvement for the area and corps commanders (who are looking deeper into the rear than any div or bde commander) even when artillery is a supporting arm. By flexibility I also mean that reserves of firepower held at the higher command's disposal can be quickly committed to times and places of the greatest opportunity, or if things go badly to the times and places of the direst need. Reserves give flexibility because it means that you can do things like shift axes from one direction to another quickly. Of course your logistics staff have to be warned so they can keep up.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Badar » 24 Jun 2002 23:09

Hi,

the Corps having indep arty brigades (which some corps may have and others may not)...

Jagan, I thought all corps of the IA have atleast one Indp Art Bde, even those deployed in mountain terrain. Could you give examples of Corps that dont have any? Why dont these corps have attached art units? Quite Interesting.

will the Arty div be at one place or will it have its resources dispersed across the entire front where the corps is deployed?

My preliminary guess is that this division is purely to support the opening stages of a break through. Even a massive strike corps will attack over a fairly limited frontage - so I guess that initially atleast the division will fairly concentrated.

Co-ordinating fire missions, specially rolling and creeping fire missions as well as oncall missions in support of advancing troops is complicated enough at the Art Brigade level in this day and age of shoot and scoot. Having the Corps HQ command, task and coordinate a group of 2-3 Indp Art Bde's attached to the Corps plus the multiple divisional Art Bde's and the Inf Bde's Organic artillery is going be a hell of a headache. One way of dealing with it is to beef up the Corps Arty Commander (of whatever the IA designation is) or alternatively form a new HQ. This HQ could be given organic SATA Bn, ADA troops, signals Bn for coordination in addition to the previously corps held Indp Art Bde's. This might just make the huge job of coordinating and effectively utilising massive massive amounts of firepower effectively.

We will have a fairly good idea if this conjecture is accurate if it is indeed found that the Artillery division is attached to one of the Strike Corps (probably XXI).

The 333 missile group based in secunderabad that handles Prithvi missiles has been placed under this division

Simha, are you sure? Could I have a cite on that please? If this is true it could mean that the 333rd will now be used in a SRBM/MRBM battlefield ballistic missile role.

The Artillery Divisions would field tube artillery only as a residual component

Aditvya, Unless I am very much mistaken, tube artillery will form the bulk of the combat power of the artillery division, supplimented by MRLS and if Simha is correct TBMs.

Induction of threater level weapons such as Smerch, Pinaka, Prithvi

Hello Peeyoosh. I would have though that highly prized scarce assets like Smerch or Prithvi would be fielded in Regiment sized groups and placed directly under GHQ or at most an Army Command. These units would then be assigned to support corps or division as needed. Pigenholing them into divisions seems slightly incongrous - like placing 155mm guns in an battalion weapons company. :)

if a central pool of tubes is needed, its a good idea to create one, rather than strip briagdes

That is why Divisions have Art Bde's - serve as a central pool of tubes and Corps a collection of independent Bde's.

in all phasing in like trishul, pinaka, nag, akash you will only see trickles due to less funds for volume replacement

Guru, Interestingly funds seem to trickle when ever there is an local procurememt. Large amounts of cash is chucked promptly on the table for imported equipment. I think it is more a case of IA distrust than purely a funding issue.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Raj Malhotra » 25 Jun 2002 00:38

What I have not understood is the delay in awarding the contract for more 155mm artillery. The final phase of trials were supposed to be April 2002. Is anybody aware of anything happening?

For attrition war India seems to threatening in mountainous terrain, the artillery is very important.

I think the lobbying is so strong that India seems to find very difficult to award contracts when lot of suitors are involved (?)

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby advitya » 25 Jun 2002 00:43

Badar
When 30 Arty Div was raised (now called 40 Arty Div) there was no provision for gun brigades. There were provisions for 3 'groups' - one missile and two rocket. The composition AFAIK remain unaltered.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Rudra » 25 Jun 2002 04:21

http://www.denel.co.za/liw/weapons/T6.htm

LIW says they have successfully put the huge
turret and 52cal gun on a T-72 chassis. This was
something that Vickers failed to in mid-90s during
IA trials.

Might open up a cost-reduction option to convert
older T-72s to this role, though one would prefer
new build Bhim's if feasible.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby putnanja » 25 Jun 2002 04:57

From Denel's webpage, in the news archives section, on DefExpo 20002


“At the previous DEFEXPO in Delhi two years ago, Denel’s T6 turret was on display as part of the Indian defence industry pavilion, integrated with their own Arjun,” says Louis Dirker. “That resulted from the Indian defence forces having tested and evaluated the Denel-developed T6 turret, finding it highly suitable to their requirements. In fact, we continue to work very closely with India’s defence industry to further develop new artillery systems such as the T6 and our latest T5-2000 truck mounted variant.”

The T5-2000 artillery system is developed in partnership with Indian defence industry. Following as a logical consequence of the G5-2000 development, it is a gun-howitzer mounted on a truck platform along with command and control systems.

So, does it mean that they had actually integrated the T6 with Arjun even before they tried mating it with T-72? Any chance that they did it for/with India as they tested it on T-72 and not with other NATO tanks ?
Also, any news on the truck-mounted versions that were supposed to have been developed for India as mentioned in the article? How many were ordered?

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Ashutosh » 25 Jun 2002 05:12

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
http://www.denel.co.za/liw/weapons/T6.htm

LIW says they have successfully put the huge
turret and 52cal gun on a T-72 chassis. This was
something that Vickers failed to in mid-90s during
IA trials.

Might open up a cost-reduction option to convert
older T-72s to this role, though one would prefer
new build Bhim's if feasible.
Err, this picture:
http://www.denel.co.za/liw/weapons/t6_1.jpg
is old wine ... I've seen it in relation to India's tests with the LIW T-6 on the T-72 and Arjun hull. So it's not new. IA had allegedly rejected it, archives of BR News should contain more information.

If you go up one level, the date at the bottom of the page is 1996 ...

BTW, I'm not an army guy, just been inside a T-72 once. Talking about SP, if (and ever) an SP comes face-to-face against an MBT, what are the possible senarios? Take the case of a TSP T-80 or AL-Khalid vs Arjun-LIW-T6.

1) The MBT is clever and smart. It comes real close to the SP, within 2km. It can see bigger silhoutte/radar/acoustic signature/heat signature of the SP unit. Fires 40 FSAPDS/HEAT rounds, but it's like banging your head against the wall; the armour on the SP is way to goddamned thick to even tickle it.
2) SP has active communication/tracking enabled, coupled with AEW helos and ANTPQ-37, so it knows that the MBT is having chai here, or sleeping there, etc., upto a firing distance of 70 km (LIW range).
3) Well, both cases, it is upto the SP to decide what to do next. MBT has no option.

In case (1), it is like shooting a turtle at point blank range with a 9mm sniper rifle and telescopic sight.

In case (2), it is "what the hell just hit me?" senario ...

Any comments?

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Shirish » 25 Jun 2002 05:56

a. Prithvi regiments are under AHQ, were and will be!
b. Smerch is a Corps-level weapon, and Smerch batteries are directed by the Corps Commander.
c. Pinaka & BM-21 are divisional level weapons
d. 160mm mortar performed as well as the 155mm howitzers, so a decision was made not to scrap them.
e. Pinaka and BM21 are NOT strategic weapons!

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Peeyoosh » 25 Jun 2002 05:59

Badar

The average brigade has around 70 odd 155 tubes, IIRC. At KArgil we saw over 300 guns being used ona relatively narrow front - I suspect the divisional structure would enable that.

MAybe we do not need the tubes themselves, just the "structure" to assemble and co-ordinate such fire missions, but harking back to Kargil - divisions hate giving up their artillery - and come up with very innovative excuses to slow the process down.

To add the logistics chain needed to support a 300 gun concentration was awesome, the people running these chains need to know exactly what they are doing - cannot be a case of learn on tehy job.

MRBLs at the Army Command level would be a seperate division (or a brigade within a atry division, would they not?) - not implying that they form brigades attachedt o inf. divisions.

Ashuthsoh - A SP's strenght would lie in range, not armour/mobility - given that the bulk of the TSP tankage is 60s and 70s tanks, a tracked 155 would be very lethal.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Rudra » 25 Jun 2002 07:48

SP guns arent as well armoured as MBTs afaik. so within 2km, a MBT has all three advantages speed, protection and firepower(can fire more shells quickly). the SP being obese and slow-witted had better depart well before that happens, or call up its arjun buddies :D

the muzzle velocity of the SP guns HE shell seems like 800m/sec compared to 1600m/sec of APDS. being 155mm and about 40 kg heavy it should make
a real mess of any MBT if it hits.

lastly, I dont think the SP has a FCS to hit moving targets or when it itself is moving.
but if given the coordinates and equipped with
AT bomblets , can make it real nasty for a
tank formation from long range.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby JCage » 25 Jun 2002 11:59

Originally posted by Ashutosh S. Rajekar:
[url=http://www.denel.co.za/liw/weapons/T6.htm[/URL]]http://www.denel.co.za/liw/weapons/T6.htm[/url][/URL]

LIW says they have successfully put the huge
turret and 52cal gun on a T-72 chassis. This was
something that Vickers failed to in mid-90s during
IA trials.

Might open up a cost-reduction option to convert
older T-72s to this role, though one would prefer
new build Bhim's if feasible

Err, this picture:
http://www.denel.co.za/liw/weapons/t6_1.jpg
is old wine ... I've seen it in relation to India's tests with the LIW T-6 on the T-72 and Arjun hull. So it's not new. IA had allegedly rejected it, archives of BR News should contain more information.

If you go up one level, the date at the bottom of the page is 1996 ...

The Denel T6 with the ARjun chassis+ hull was approved by the Army for induction after trials.This in the Army report at www.mod.nic.in

The criteria holding all this up seems to be money.

The T6 turret on the T72 was a failure as the T72 -780hp powerplant couldnt take the weight in contrast to the Arjun's 1400hp.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby advitya » 25 Jun 2002 18:20

IIRC BRM had an article on the T-6..??

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Raj Malhotra » 26 Jun 2002 22:10

I remember a lonely article in some newspaper that there was some interest in MoD to reverse engineer the bofors with the help of the technical drawings already received. Does somebody have any idea on the current status of the programme??

The intelligence online is as usual incorrect and full of factual mistakes. IIRC Janes had reported the trials for truck mounted cannons in April. Any new info?

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Y I Patel » 28 Jun 2002 00:31

Well well well... take a few days off BR, and look what happens. Maybe I should stay off BR for a couple of weeks at a time - it certainly seems to speed things up on the Indian defence front!

Congratulations to a Gujarati muslim for raising IA's newest formation - and what an indicator of the diversity and complexity of India! Happy hunting, Maj Gen Jamboosarwala.

This makes me want to hunt down an old article by Pravin Sawhney on IA's arty div doctrine (an article supposedly distinct from the Arty doctrine piece featured in BR IA section). Absent that article, we can get some first impressions based on May 02 reports on the raising of the new Div, and the earlier P Sawhney articles on arty.

First we have, from Sandeep Dikshit in The Hindu:

The new
division will basically have
medium guns, rockets,
surveillance and target
acquisition regiment and,
possibly, missiles.
The missiles in question being the conventionally tipped Prithvis. And that's where Praveen Sawhney's recent article in the Pioneer assumes significance. Let me quote a revealing portion from his piece here:

This leads us to the second issue. That, given the nuclear weapons capability of both sides, the importance of accurate firepower or artillery has increased manifold in a conventional war. Ballistic missiles with conventional warheads are part of respective artillery organisations and will bolster "fire assaults", a term recently employed by Jaswant Singh while briefing the media.

For example, India's 333 missile group, which houses the Prithvi, is part of the army's 40 artillery division. Similarly, Pakistan's 155 rocket regiment, which is part of 2 artillery division, has both the Hatf-III or Ghaznavi and Hatf-II or Abdali missiles.

Both sides therefore, without saying so, have redefined the operational roles of their field artilleries, from being combat support to becoming combat arm. This means that while earlier, the artillery was used only to supplement the efforts of the infantry and armour; it will now also be employed on independent operational taskings, especially in the Kashmir theatre. This has been necessitated by a change in subcontinental doctrine, where attrition assumes importance over manoeuvre.

It implies that instead of seeking deep thrusts inside enemy territory, hitting operational and strategic targets; the attrition of defence forces of the other side will be the buzzword. On the one hand, nuclear weapons with both sides have imposed psychological restraint on planners and uncertainty for executioners in India and Pakistan. On the other hand, ballistic missiles with conventional warheads, as part of the two artillery organisations, will bring doctrinal and psychological surprises on to the battlefield.
So we can see clearly that a major change is brewing in the operational doctrine. The decisive role of arty in Kargil and its extensive use in the recent crisis can only hasten this revolution, because fire assaults have clearly become a favoured method of administering pain on PA. With this in mind, one can speculate quite credibly that IA will get at least one more arty div, to operate in the Jammu area.

Getting back to the 41st, where will it be deployed? Again, according to Dixit, Gujarat / Southern Rajasthan is a likely area of operations. This is very interesting, because if you remember the Parakram thread I had speculated that Southern Rajasthan/ Gujarat are likely to assume a more prominent role in IA offensive doctrine, if they have not already.

Speaking more generally, these arty divs had to come about as IA's C3I capabilities and mobility improved. The induction of UAVs, SATA batteries, longer range medium guns and MBRLs all mean that arty units can be dispersed spatially and yet be used in concert to achieve objectives all by themselves. So while the arty div raising seems to signify concentration of forces, it really mean that the forces in question will be more dispersed in actuality.

One final note - the planned purchase of Bhim SP. I don't know how that ties in with the arty div, and am inclined to believe that the armd div arty bdes will be the first ones to get Bhim when he arrives.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby ramana » 28 Jun 2002 01:36

Yogi thanks for the insight. Have you read Maj Gen Sukhwant Singh's three volume book on India's wars since Independence? May be Dsandhu can look it up.
In it he mentions how he had come up with a plan in for all the divisional guns to fire in unison to deliver large amounts of shells to support a move across the IB. He did this when he was Brig of an arty unit and posted in Southern Command. The plan didnt get implemented due to higher officers.

I dont have the book but thnk that Maj Gen Eric Vaz was the operation planner and he got moved to head a school.

The Arty Div seems to be a bigger unit like that.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby member_201 » 01 Jul 2002 08:47

Kulbit
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posted 30 June 2002 10:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Everybody!

I have just heard that testing of "Smerch" MRLS has been conducted at Chandipur ITR. But, is'nt a tested machine since Russians are using it for sometimes now. And what more,have any one any idea about new artillery guns (self-propelled type ) India is planning to acquire? As becuse Pak's has a distinctive edge over us in this area, and it is supposed to be most vital hardware to fight all along mountain lines.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Avid » 01 Jul 2002 18:39

The tests on SMERCH are pre-induction trials for the sub-continent conditions. Quite similar to tests conducted for T-90s prior to purchases.

Since these are not off the shelf "hammers" and they do happen to cost a lot they need to be carefully tested out in the field conditions. We also know that the russians (like other seller) are known to somewhat magnify the capabilities of their system.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Badar » 01 Jul 2002 22:55

Hi,

the Arty Bde commander has no say in the employment of his Bde, that decision is made by Div or Corps Commander

CPrakash, advitya, I would have thought that an Art Bde commander had considerable lee-way in determining when, where and how his brigade is employed - considering that counterbattery operations is one of the primary roles of the artillery arm.

Is the Art Bde in an Inf Div usually broken up into penny packets (like the tanks of the corp's tank brigade)? Or does it more often then not operate as a cohesive unit? Is the Art Bde commander primarily a force provider or a service provider at the Division level? i.e does he guarantees so many guns at 'that' sector or so much tons of munitions available for delivery at
'this' sector?

peeyoosh, yes ofcourse it is quite possible that we are looking only at an HQ itself with little or no organic troops. Indp and Divisional Artillery Brigades could perhaps be used in an 'plug and play' manner depending upon their availability. But I guess this presupposes that all Art Bdes will be trained to be interoperable with the Art HQ concept - an expensive proposition - when compared to using a few dedicated artillery brigades 'organic' to the division.

BTW a general question about the IA. Does IA have the ability to mount three major independent and simultaneous offensives with its three strike corps?

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Y I Patel » 02 Jul 2002 02:32

Is the Art Bde in an Inf Div usually broken up into penny packets (like the tanks of the corp's tank brigade)? Or does it more often then not operate as a cohesive unit?
If Kargil is any indicator, the bad old days of arty bdes being broken up into penney packets are over. The range of the 155 mms, inductions of new c3i equipment, and the revealation of what massed firepower can achieve, will certainly be guiding forces for any future campaigns.

Is the Art Bde commander primarily a force provider or a service provider at the Division level? i.e does he guarantees so many guns at 'that' sector or so much tons of munitions available for delivery at
'this' sector?
I'm not sure how to interpret this question - do you mean does he respond to others' plans, or does he make his own plans? In that case, he naturally does both. An arty bde commander will certainly get his fire priorities and target list from the div commander, and that list will include inputs from the infy bde commanders... but after the arty commander gets his orders, the execution requires considerable initiative and planning on his own part.

Counter battery campaigns are usually not ends in themselves, except maybe in fire assaults like the ones PA is currently being subjected to.

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Re: New Artillery Division raised for the Indian Army

Postby Shirish » 02 Jul 2002 07:08

The Smerch is 'off the shelf'. The Smerch was first shown off to foreign attaches 2 years ago, at Deolali. My guess is that the tests are to check the performance of special munitions/ rockets that are NOT off-the shelf.


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