Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

VKumar
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Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby VKumar » 27 Sep 2002 14:01

Today, there is an Economic Times special,(International Times) addendum to the regular covering ISRAEL.

On page 2 there is a boxed article by Girish Kumar on Israeli participation in Indian Defence Industry entitled "friends in arms".

This special may not be available online.
The main points are:
1. Cooperation started 9 years ago.
2. Israel is today India's 2nd largest defence supplier.
3. defence transactions upto $3Bn have been signed or in the pipeline.
4. Cooperation extends to intelligence sharing, counter-insurgency ops, border management.
5.There is a joint ministerial committee on Islamic Terrorism.
6.Israeli officials have visited sensitive border areas of J&K.
7.India has signed a $2Bn technology transfer agreement that is primarily for HAL , Mig 21 upg.
8. Dr. Abdul Kalam visited Israel twice in 18 mths prior to 1998 Pokhran tests.
9.Purchases include unmanned aerial vehicles for $32Mn, 200 hand-held thermal imaging systems for infantry and as many for artillery at $20Mn.
10. Soltan to upgrade 130 mm M46 field guns to 155 mm.
11. Supply of 40,000 rounds of 155 mm ammo and 30,000 rounds for 160 mm mortar.
12.IAF to get $250 Mn worth Phalcon system.
13. Under negotiation are radio comm sets, upto 1000 fire control systems for T-72, navigation and targeting pods for IAF. Avionics and weapons for 40 SU-30 bought in 1990s.
14. Sensors to be installed along LOC and a deal for UAVs.

Also mentions that in 1965 and 1971 India had received small arms and ammo from Israel.

Does this need a folder? Admins decide!
Can this fit into any existing threads?
Will it serve as a longterm log of purchases from Israel?

AshishN
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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby AshishN » 28 Sep 2002 02:37

(Shubh Suteesmaki din!!)

Are they talking of the LAH here? Isn't Dhruv the ALH?

:confused:

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/

Israel and India to develop joint attack helicopter

Hindustan Aeronautics will manufacture the fuselage, while IAI is responsible for avionics and other systems.

Dror Marom 26 Sep 02 16:47

Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) VP marketing Shmuel Eckhouse signed an agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) of India a few days ago to jointly develop an attack helicopter.
This is the first agreement of its kind arising from the closer Israeli-Indian defense relationship.

IAI competed against Elbit Systems (Nasdaq: ESLTF) and France's Eurocopter in the HAL tender. IAI will participate both in the helicopter's development and marketing around the world.

The agreement follows IAI's strategic cooperation agreement with HAL to develop joint projects in India, Israel and third countries.

The project is called the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). HAL will manufacture the fuselage, while IAI will be responsible for developing its avionics and other advanced systems through its subsidiaries. The helicopter will probably use French-built engines.

The ALH is designed for attack, intelligence gathering and anti-tank and anti-submarine operations. The first customer will be the Indian Army, which is expected to order over 300. Each helicopter will cost about $4.5 million.

The ALH project is one of the joint projects with HAL under consideration by IAI.

IAI and HAL hope to interest other armies in addition to supplying the Indian Army. Israel is not expected to buy the helicopter, since the Israel Air Force uses only US-built attack helicopters, such as the Apache and Cobra.

Several countries, mainly in the Third World, have expressed interest in the ALH, including Vietnam, Nepal, Malaysia, and Trinidad and Tobago. Development of the ALH will probably be completed by 2004-05.

Published by Globes [online] - www.globes.co.il - on September 26, 2002

Div
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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Div » 28 Sep 2002 03:09

Sounds like the LAH - Light Attack Helicopter. Its the one in the background.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE4-5/rajloh.jpg

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Rudra » 28 Sep 2002 03:58

yes it certainly the LAH package. As the ALH itself
in army version has a TV-camera, FLIR and ability
to fire ATGMs, rockets and gun....sounds like this
LAH thing will be a much more dedicated package.

better agility, integrated automatic flares and
missile warning system, bad weather navigation,
night attack systems, new HOTAS cockpit...israel
has a lot of electronic goodies stashed away.

I would like to see 500 LAHs in line-abreast
formation advancing towards Multan strike corps :whine:

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Cybaru » 28 Sep 2002 04:09

Originally posted by AshishN:
(Shubh Suteesmaki din!!)

The ALH is designed for attack, intelligence gathering and anti-tank and anti-submarine operations. The first customer will be the Indian Army, which is expected to order over 300. Each helicopter will cost about $4.5 million.

www.globes.co.il - on September 26, 2000
LAH for anti submarine operations ??
Just might be a more heavily armoured version of ALH for the army. The cost seems right too.

George J

Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby George J » 28 Sep 2002 06:56

The article is confusing issues for the readers. Its what you call in BR paralance a typical DDM piece.

Its known that HAL has selected IAI to co-market and co-develop Dhruv for forieng markets. The co-develop part also invovles developing a real 'attack' version of the 'advance light helicopter' NOT LAH. At least not that i m aware of.

So the DDM is factually correct coz the Dhruv will be made in India by HAL, and the engines are French and the avionics will be IAI.

Dhruv can/will be customized to do all that Cheetak can do and more. And cheetak can luanch ATGM, rockets, recce for the army. It dunks sonars and lauches sea eagle for the Navy.

Naturally the Israeli military dont want it coz they already have a similar platform: Bell Huey UH-1. NOT the apache or cobra. While our Cheetah the workhorse is getting old.

Div
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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Div » 28 Sep 2002 09:37

My understading was that the LAH would be based on the ALH (enough abbreviations?). The evolution being somewhat similar to Huey --> Cobra and SA330 Puma --> Rooivalk.

George J

Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby George J » 28 Sep 2002 11:01

Originally posted by Div:
My understading was that the LAH would be based on the ALH (enough abbreviations?). The evolution being somewhat similar to Huey --> Cobra and SA330 Puma --> Rooivalk.
From the Financial Express June 13, 2002

UK, Israel Aircraft Firms Eye Tie-up With HAL For Advanced Light Helicopter

Our Corporate Bureau

Bangalore, June 12: The British Aerospace Systems and Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd have evinced keen interest in joining hands with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to take its advanced light helicopter (ALH) to the global market.
Addressing the two-day national seminar on public-private partnership in the defence aerospace industry here, HAL chairman and managing director NR Mohanty said the two organisations have expressed their interest to join hands with HAL to do the global marketing of ALH by putting their equipments on the ALH platform.

Mr Mohanty said HAL is waiting for detailed proposals from the two companies and further details on the cooperation, such as investments and profit sharing would be worked out accordingly. HAL has also submitted a proposal to Indian Air Force to develop a light attack helicopter, a spin-off of the ALH venture, he added.

NOTE: the LAH issue is separate from the JV issue, but the DDM's sure get their facts mixed.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby vverma » 28 Sep 2002 11:22

February 20, 2002 Mr. George Fernandes, India`s Minister of Defense Examined an Avionics Simulator at the Israel Aircraft Industries Booth at an Exhibition in India

Israel Aircraft Industries Participated in a Land and Naval Systems Exhibition - "DEFEXPO 2002" in New Delhi, India, and Signed a Number of Agreements

INDIA - Joint Production of UAV, Boats wuth Israel (May 22/dn)

India has also been engaged in indigenous development of UAV technology.
It has completed work on the Nishant, a remotely piloted vehicle for battlefield surveillance and reconnaissance. A mini-UAV for reconnaissance, called Kapothaka and a pilotless target aircraft called Lakshua, have also been developed.
Did anybody know about this Kapothaka project?

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby JCage » 28 Sep 2002 12:22

V^2,
yES.Kapothaka was trialled during Brasstacks.Mini-UAV.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby vverma » 28 Sep 2002 16:20

I guess the next unavoidable question is, what happened to it? This is the first time I am hearing of it. Never seen it mentioned anywhere.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Austin » 28 Sep 2002 17:02

[BOLD] I guess the next unavoidable question is, what happened to it? This is the first time I am hearing of it. Never seen it mentioned anywhere.[/BOLD]


Verma,As Nitin had said Its a mini UAV/Target Practise(PTA) ,More of the later, I saw the pics of it in some magazine dated back to 1989 IIRC, As To what happened to it , Not sure how successful it was whether it went in to limited production or not , Of course now we do have a better PTA in the form of Lakshya.


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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby harishn » 28 Sep 2002 18:17

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/11/28/News/News.16407.html

" India has purchased 100 UAVs at a cost of $750 million and may double this order, DEBKAfile reported.
"
Dated November 28 2000

That is 7.5 million $ per Searcher Mark II UAV :eek: :eek: . This cant be true, does any one know the true price of Searcher Mark II ? Just the plane.

I think the 750 million $ must be the cost of the UAV, command center, Training and personal cost etc....(Reports of Israeli personals training the army in Kashmir). Can any one confirm this ?

From Stratmag this is what we get.

" Israel Radio has reported the sale of an unspecified number of UAVs to India in deals worth $230 m. Procurement is to begin next year and the UAVs are expected to be deployed in Kashmir and the border with China. The deals may be for the Searcher II since the Searcher I is already operational with the Indian Army. However, its limited flight ceiling has ensured its use only south of the Pir Panjal ranges. The Searcher II is reported to have a better range and flight ceiling."

This is dated February 16, 2001 . Any explanations ?

George J

Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby George J » 28 Sep 2002 20:42

Did'nt we have JAWA site which was itself archived in some HK site??? It had b/w pics of Kapothaka and Ulka. I remember Ulka, and one cheesy looky UAV which I assume was the Kapothaka. Unless it an was early unamed UAV prototype.

My google search was in vein. I think it was Tingdu brought up the link. ADE site lists a one line statement about an un-named mini RPV, Lakshya, and Nishant.

Nathan:
From the ADE site "..Nishant is a field mobile system comprising air vehicles, ground control station, antenna tracking system, launcher and mission support vehicles. It meets the battlefield surveillance and reconnaissance needs of Indian Army. Each air vehicle carries a stabilized steerable platform with electro-optic payloads for surveillance, target acquisition and target tracking."

You can pretty much assume that all that equipments is required for any UAV around the world. So its not the cost of one 'air vehcile' (or the actual UAV per se) but the entire system. One system can have multiple 'air vehicles' at its disposal.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby harishn » 28 Sep 2002 21:19

Yes George , i gathered as much. That is why i was asking the price of one Air Vehicle and not the entire setup.

In June TSP shot down Searcher Mark II UAV. Even if that one air vehicle cost 1 million $ (1/7 of 7.5 million $), its quite expensive. I just hope the pictures it sent was worth that much. Does anyone know the cost of the missile that shot down the UAV ? Just curious. As comparison goes one T 90 MBT cost 2 million $.

Do we give these baby's a coat of RAM paint ? Any idea about the amount of composites used in these UAV's ? RCS of UAV ?

George J

Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby George J » 28 Sep 2002 23:28

There was an article sometime back which listed th cost of the 'arieal vehicle' alone and the cost of the system. IIRC there are 5 arieal vehicle to a UAV system (all from memory so please pardon faux pass). So using your $750 M figures (which itself is suspect)for 100 UAV, thats 5 vehix x 20 systems =100 UAV. So the cost of one system would be $ 37.5 M. How much of that is the cost of the ariel vehicle alone, I cant recall.

If the UAV went all the way to Lahore (20 Kms from the city at least). It certainly has gathered enuf and more sigint and imint. Unless there were no radars operational and there was nothing below for it to image except for swimming pools in RAPE courtyards. Which is a separate yet delicious sort of intel, beyond the scope of BR. :D

Loosing one UAV really is peanuts compared to loosing other military assets with human assets on board. What they are, how many we loose in peacetime, how many lives were lost, are well documented in Jagan's website. So you do that math figuring in the cost of a lost pilot and aircraft and tell me what you think the loss of an UAV means to us.

RAM only reduces the RCS, does not endow stealth. So its still detectable albeit with more difficulty. The moot point is if that difficulty is statisticaly and economically significant.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby JCage » 29 Sep 2002 00:47

Originally posted by vverma:
I guess the next unavoidable question is, what happened to it? This is the first time I am hearing of it. Never seen it mentioned anywhere.
Served to finetune our FCS and composite knowledge for the Nishant.ADE was in charge.Nifty work.Problem was it was,simply,too light for the stuff army wanted from a UAV.Good range,long loiter,decent payload.So they trialled it..and Nishant took over.As what the Army ASR's pointed to.

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Vick » 02 Oct 2002 19:51

As this is the only Israeli-India thread I could find, I will post this article here. I found the article on the ACIG forum, posted by Tom the admin so I am assuming that it has a legitimate source. I am not sure of the article's original source. The article does have some key insights into the Axis of YYYvil dynamics.

20 September, 2002
The Indian Connection
Israel-India Thriving Defense Relations Viewed
Tel Aviv, (Ma'ariv (Sofshavu'a Supplement), by Amit Navon)

Last year, MK Amnon Rubinstein led an Israeli parliamentary delegation on a visit to India. The delegation received an especially warm welcome, and there was much local interest. On their visit to Karla, in southern part of the subcontinent, ubinstein was the guest of the local television studio and was interviewed on Indian-Israeli relations. When the young interviewer asked why such a deep closeness, devoid of bad feeling, had developed between the countries, Rubinstein replied that the reason was bound up, among other things, with the fact that India is perhaps the only country where there have been no expressions of anti-Semitism toward the local Jewish community. The interviewer asked Rubinstein in all seriousness: "Excuse me sir, what is anti-Semitism?"

Rubinstein gaped astounded at his interviewer for a moment, then hugged him spontaneously, and declared that this was the most pleasing response that he could have wished for. The interview made waves, and the national television station of New Delhi reported it. Rubinstein: "The impression that I gained on this visit is that apart from the United States, the warmth toward Israel on the part of India has no equal."

Relations between India and Israel were never better. This year, both countries marked the tenth anniversary of the establishment of full diplomatic relations between them. In this short period, Israel has become one of India's important arms suppliers, second only to Russia, and threatening to take its place. India has become Israel's largest defense export target. Until a few years ago, both countries pursued an extra-cautious policy on the public nature of their bilateral ties, but today Major General Uzi Dayan, until recently the head of the National Security Council [NSC], describes the link as "a special strategic relationship," a definition that includes not only military cooperation, but ideological and strategic closeness on matters connected with the world balance of forces.

The closeness between the only democracies in the zone lying between
the Mediterranean Sea and the Indian subcontinent derives in large part from the fact that both face a perpetual threat from radical Islam. Reserves Colonel Dr. Eran Lerman, who until this year served in a senior position in Intelligence Branch, was drawn into a somewhat surrealistic situation when he delivered a lecture last year to a delegation from the Indian National Security Council, which also included senior Indian
generals.

Lerman: "I found myself defending the good name of Islam in civilization, and directing its problematic nature to modern aberrations of totalitarian Islamism. Facing me were the Indian generals, and they came out with a strong attack on Islam in general. It was very interesting. Imagine for yourself an IDF general defending Islam in the face of a very aggressive attack by a general from a foreign army. Definitely an absurd situation."

Upgrading The Soviets

Beyond cooperation on the issue of Islamic terror, the main brick in security ties between the countries these days is India's massive procurement of Israeli-made arms. The Indian Army is mainly dependent on outdated Soviet fighting equipment. The capabilities developed by Israeli industries in the field of upgrading old Soviet equipment are of supreme importance in Indian eyes.

Official elements in both countries prefer to downplay the scope of the procurement. In the background lies the Indian fear of a response from the Arab World, whereas Israeli industries are anxious about the possible involvement of the United States, which could torpedo deals, as it did when it thwarted the sale of the Phalcon early-warning aircraft to China. Today, it appears that the United States does not oppose the sale of Israeli weapons to India in principle, but among Israeli industries there are still fears that their US colleagues will try to take over the Indian market and supplant them.

One of the more conspicuous deals on the agenda now is the sale of three Phalcon aircraft, the same model as those denied to China. Indian procurement in Israel in 2002 totals more than $1 billion. It seems that the tension between India and Pakistan, which again exacerbated this year, will accelerate deals currently on the agenda and the sealing of others, so that this astronomical sum seems likely to grow in coming years.

In addition to the Phalcon deal, which has still not been finally concluded, other major deals include the sale of the Green Pine radar system, which is part of the Arrow missile-defense system, as well as the Baraq shipborne missile and Galaxy aircraft for the Indian Navy. An Indian diplomatic source notes that the two countries' space agencies are due to sign cooperation agreements in the near future.

In addition, Soltam is upgrading 180 old Indian guns and is competing to supply 500 new ones. India has purchased unmanned aerial vehicles [UAV's] costing a total of some $400 million. In June this year, Pakistani fighter aircraft shot down an Indian Army Searcher UAV that was operating deep in Pakistani territory. A metal plate discovered in the wreckage revealed that the UAV came from Israel Aircraft Industries.

This incident led Pakistan to repeat its warning to Israel against getting involved in the region. The Pakistanis have voiced various claims in the past, some refuted, about the degree of Israel's involvement in the subcontinent. In 1998, a Pakistani newspaper reported that an Israel intelligence ship had sunk off Pakistan's coast. According to the report, the ship had been escorted by an Israeli submarine, which had been supposed to send signals to Israeli F-16's that intended to destroy the Pakistani nuclear testing site.

Security elements in Israel emphasize that Israel is trying to measure its steps so that Pakistan does not interpret the rapprochement between Israel and India as aimed at Pakistan. Israel and India take care to deny every report about cooperation in the nuclear field. Despite the calming messages, elements in the Islamic world are anxiously monitoring the close relations between Israeli figures and key elements in the Indian nuclear program, headed by Dr. Abdul Kalam, who was elected president of India this year, and who is regarded as the father of India's nuclear program. Kalam, who is a Muslim, visited Israel even before the nuclear tests that India carried out in 1998. [passage
omitted]

Everyone's Terror

The last year was a peak point in the development of ties between the countries, following the attacks of 11 September. On that day, Major General Uzi Dayan was making an official visit to India. The planned meetings with Prime Minister Vajpayee, Minister Advani, and National Security Adviser Mishra, and with the US ambassador in New Delhi, assumed a sharper focus against the backdrop of the dramatic events in the United
States.

Dayan: "After the terror attack, it was clear to all of us that something had changed. In the meetings next day, we decided to upgrade relations between the countries. It was decided to establish a formal channel for cooperation in fighting terror. Since then, a number of meetings have been held under the aegis of the foreign ministries, with the professional aspect being led by the NSC's counterterrorism team. This is a link that was created when David Ivri was NSC chief, and it has continued in the past year. I visited India again in the middle of the year, and beforehand I hosted their delegation in Israel in the framework of the decision to hold a biannual meeting for strategic discussions.

[Navon] What does the cooperation in fighting terror include?

[Dayan] The cooperation is focused on the bilateral link in the areas of jointly studying the threats and the ways of responding to them, formulating concepts and doctrines, and training methods. Beyond that there is cooperation in the area of the judicial treatment of terror and ways of fighting infrastructures, such as the financial sources of terror. Israel ensures that it explains the importance of confronting countries supporting terror, in particular Iran. India raises the issue of Pakistani terror against it. The Indians show great interest in ways to deal with suicide terror, which has begun to make an appearance over there. [end Dayan] [passage omitted]

Eli Karmon, of the Counterterrorism Institute: "The Islamist struggle in Kashmir began in the 1990's. Until then it had a nationalist character. In the 1990's, the military regime in Pakistan moved closer to the Islamic movements. Extremist Islam received increasingly broad support from army circles, mainly from the large intelligence service, ISI, which started to operate organizations against India.

"There are a number of Islamic undergrounds in Kashmir, and today there are two serious organizations connected to Al-Qa'ida. One is Lashkar-i-Taiyibah, and the other is Jaish-i-Muhammad. They call for a fight against all enemies of Islam, not just India, but the United States, Britain, and Israel. These organizations sent fighters to train in Al-Qa'ida camps in Afghanistan. These people's camps were the ones hit when the United States attacked Afghanistan in 1998 after the attacks against its embassies in Africa."

[Navon] Is anything known of links between Kashmiri underground organizations and organizations operating against Israel?

[Karmon] When the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders was set up in 1998, those organizations in effect joined the front, even if they did not sign the fatwa issued by Bin Ladin. Intelligence source say that Al-Qa'ida supplied them with the money and weapons, not only training. In the last two years, we've seen how their fighting methods have been moving closer to the fighting methods of Islamic organizations familiar to us, chiefly the use of suicide attacks,
which is a new phenomenon in Kashmir.

In 1995, when extremists from the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front decapitated a Norwegian traveler they had kidnapped, they stressed in their statement that the person murdered was a Jew. This teaches us something about their attitude toward us. At this stage, the undergrounds are busy fighting India, but there is a possibility that they will also target Israeli and Jewish targets, as they tried to operate against US targets in India. [end Karmon]

The Backpacker Connection

All those involved in the ties between India and Israel say that it would be a mistake to see only a network of military interests in the relations. Those interviewed, Indians and Israelis alike, say that it is cooperation between two countries with great cultural closeness. In this context, the Indians like to point to the stream of Israeli backpackers traveling to their country. The Indian Embassy in Tel Aviv this year issued some 30,000 visas for Israeli travelers. A former head of Indian military intelligence, Savani, even referred to this phenomenon in a meeting with Israeli colleagues. Savani quoted a line from Kipling -- "only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun in India -- and added: "Today, we can add the Israeli backpacker to them."

Lerman: "In the last ten years, a feeling has developed that there is a difference between the Israeli connection with India and its links with almost every other country outside the Western circle. The daily Indian experience is shaped in very similar circumstances to ours, except for one difference: the proportions. You read the texts after 11 September -- Side I has the feeling that the Americans are trying to appease Side P, in spite of the fact that Side P is involved in terror which is exactly like that which struck the United States, and when Side I acts firmly against the terror, the Americans feel they're under pressure because it disturbs their need to work with P. In the Israeli case, Side I is Israel, and Side P is the Palestinian side, and so it is with India and Pakistan in parallel.

"The historical narratives of India and Israel are almost identical. Both countries were established as a result of Britain's partition machinations from 1947 to 1949. The dynamic of relations between Israel and its small but malicious Muslim neighbor, the PA, with one part stuck in the east -- the West Bank -- and another part in the west -- the Gaza Strip -- is very similar to relations between India and its neighbor Pakistan to the west, and Bangladesh, which was formerly part of Pakistan until it became independent. This similarity has played a big role in bringing India and Israel closer together.

"Another important factor is the common democratic character of both countries. It is healthier and easier from our viewpoint to work with a democracy. This is a delicate statement, but it has to be said. If we, in a particular sense, need to choose between the two Asian giants, at a time when the most important thing for the existence of the State of Israel is its network of relations with the United States, better to choose the giant which has the same system of values, and one where the ties with it can be defended in front of the US Congress. (My comments: A statement pregnant with forshadowing or forboding, depending on what side of the fence you are on) In the final reckoning, no moral or strategic problems exist between India and the United States. On the contrary. The interesting thing is that the Jewish community in the United States is involved in assisting India to move closer to the United States. The Indians view the Jewish communities as a model of the effective organization of the diaspora.

[Navon] What is the long-term significance of the partnership between
India and Israel?

[Lerman] From Israel's point of view, a deep strategic link with India means that a country with one billion people on the extremity of our strategic zone, with a large potential for growth and a fundamental lack of sympathy for political Islamism, will be like a shelter against those whom we don't like so much. We may talk in terms of a peripheral belt around the Islamic world. There are parts of the Arab World where the Indian strategic presence is already being felt. In certain conditions, the Indian Navy could become the dominant element in Arabian Sea. Such things have great significance for us.

Thus, too, with the likely influence on Iran's standing. Working relations have been formed between Iran and India as a result of a very simple thing -- my enemy's enemy is my friend. The Iranians, along with Russia and India, supported the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, while Pakistan supported the Taliban regime. In the meantime, the Americans have taken control of the business, and this thread that brought them together has become irrelevant.

I'm prepared to go further and say that over the course of time, and due to 11 September as well, there will be a gradual formation of a strategic axis that will go beyond the closed community of NATO, and in which one of the membership characteristics will have to do with the nature of the political system. The circle of democratic countries will increasingly turn into a defense community as well. The ties between India and Israel will certainly take their place in this. [end Lerman]

Israel, It's Not America

Israel's ties with India are giving rise to concern in the Arab World. In the past, the developing strategic link between Israel and Turkey aroused great anger in Arab states, mainly in Syria, which found itself between two allies hostile to it. Experts on relations with India point out that the link forming with India is similar in substance to the strategic link with Turkey. Some claim that the Indian link will become even more central in contrast to the Turkish one.

Efrayim Inbar, head of the Begin-Sadat Institute at Bar-Ilan University, holds working meetings with Indian research institutes, including the important IDSA. According to him, India and Israel have a common strategic vision in a variety of areas.

"They have a common strategic culture," Inbar says. "In contrast to the Europeans, for example, for whom the end of history has arrived, the Indians still think in our terms, of dangers and threats.

"The subject of cultural closeness between two ancient civilizations crops up repeatedly at meetings with the Indians. From many points of view they admire us perhaps more than the Americans, who have existed for a little over 240 years, and who, for the Indians, were untouchables. But the Indians realized that there has been a change in the international system. They had to do some rethinking about the United States, and like many other countries, they view a link with Israel as a channel to cooperation with America.

"Israel possesses a number of advantages from India's point of view. There are arms, obviously, but not only arms -- there is food and agriculture as well. Another thing we have in common is our opposition to arms control regimes. On the nuclear issue, we are in the same group of countries that have not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty. We work together on these matters in political forums on many occasions since we share the same interests.

"Incidentally, following the rapprochement between India and Israel,
one can see a rapprochement between India and Turkey, and an interesting triangle could be formed here, one that represents a kind of return to Ben-Gurion's concept of the establishment of a ring of countries that are friendly to Israel around the Arab World."

[Navon] Is the Arab World disturbed by the cooperation between India
and Israel?

[Inbar] It definitely resounds throughout the Arab World. There's an argument among the Arabs today: "How did we lose India?" There are other things worrying them. They obviously exaggerate many times concerning the nature of the ties, but the fact that Israel has an interest in the Indian Ocean definitely bothers them. [end Inbar]

The ties between Israel and India are not without dangers. The United States has still not said the last word regarding the most desirable scope of Indian-Israeli defense ties, from its point of view. Arab states are also maintaining their ties with India, which is taking pains to stress that its ties with Israel are not at the expense of its friendships in the Arab World. But all those who are involved in the relationship are unanimous that this is a unique relationship that will grow stronger. A senior Indian official summed up the importance of strengthening the ties between India and Israel when he said: "It's most important that we develop the relationship, because together we represent one-fifth of the world's population."

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Div » 02 Oct 2002 20:14

"Incidentally, following the rapprochement between India and Israel, one can see a rapprochement between India and Turkey, and an interesting triangle could be formed here, one that represents a kind of return to Ben-Gurion's concept of the establishment of a ring of countries that are friendly to Israel around the Arab World."
More and more people seem to be suggesting this alliance...surely this won't sit well with the wannabe Turk next door.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Vick » 02 Oct 2002 20:25

Turkey-US-India-Israel grouping would be an interesting grouping to say the least. Maybe one of the best ways to tackle religion based international terrorism purely due to demographics.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Avid » 02 Oct 2002 20:37

Originally posted by Div:
More and more people seem to be suggesting this alliance...surely this won't sit well with the wannabe Turk next door.
Invitation to become Turkey followed by invitation to join the group has been extended :D :D

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Raj Malhotra » 03 Oct 2002 18:03

List of products which have been purchased by India from Israel :-

1. UAVs
2. LGP and LGB
3. fast patrol boats
4. 125mm ammo
5. 5.56mm ammo
6. 160mm ammo
7. Uzi guns (?)
8. Elint aircraft
9. Thermal imagers
10. Communication sets
11. Upgradation kits for M-25/35
12. Kits for Mi-17 (?)
13. Green pine radars
14. Aerostat radars
15. Mid range radars
16. BS radars
17. Equipment for Mig-21 UPG and Su-30 MKI
18. Barak
19. Harpy
20. Python
21. popeye (?)
22. ECM pods for aircrafts
23. Chaff dispensers and HUD (?)
24. ECM and ECCM systems for ships
25. Modernization of 130mm guns to 155 guns
26. Cameras for satellites (Elop)
27. Radars command and control centers
28. ACMI systems
29. simulators
30. co-operatin agreements with HAL for aircrafts maintenance and conversion to bulk carriers
31. potential purchase of lakshya by Israel
32. Payloads for Nishant and other optronic payloads for military use
33.

I think my list seems more comprehensive.

Others under consideration or shown interest by GoI

Phalcon
More Green pine radars
Python and derby
Co-operation for attack version of LAH (?)

There does not seem to be much tech transfer and everything is outright purchase.

One must not forget that so called indigenous Israeli products also have lot of US input and Israel may have some sort of implicit go-ahead from USA to sell this type of equipment. Off course there is always some elbow room for players but the strings are still in US hands.

Lest we forget things like HDW subs, Sea king and harriers were publicly known to have US components only after US pulled the plug

I think with sub and potential mirage deal France will again come at number two def supplier to India.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Babui » 03 Oct 2002 21:02

Is 160mm ammo correct ? Which gun do we have that uses 160mm ?!

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Rangudu » 03 Oct 2002 22:56

More news on the ALH. The following is from a registration site, so posted in full.

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=621292&fid=942

Israel and India to develop joint attack helicopter

Hindustan Aeronautics will manufacture the fuselage, while IAI is responsible for avionics and other systems.

Dror Marom


Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) VP marketing Shmuel Eckhouse signed an agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) of India a few days ago to jointly develop an attack helicopter.
This is the first agreement of its kind arising from the closer Israeli-Indian defense relationship.

IAI competed against Elbit Systems (Nasdaq: ESLTF) and France's Eurocopter in the HAL tender. IAI will participate both in the helicopter's development and marketing around the world.

The agreement follows IAI's strategic cooperation agreement with HAL to develop joint projects in India, Israel and third countries.

The project is called the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). HAL will manufacture the fuselage, while IAI will be responsible for developing its avionics and other advanced systems through its subsidiaries. The helicopter will probably use French-built engines.

The ALH is designed for attack, intelligence gathering and anti-tank and anti-submarine operations. The first customer will be the Indian Army, which is expected to order over 300. Each helicopter will cost about $4.5 million.

The ALH project is one of the joint projects with HAL under consideration by IAI.

IAI and HAL hope to interest other armies in addition to supplying the Indian Army. Israel is not expected to buy the helicopter, since the Israel Air Force uses only US-built attack helicopters, such as the Apache and Cobra.

Several countries, mainly in the Third World, have expressed interest in the ALH, including Vietnam, Nepal, Malaysia, and Trinidad and Tobago. Development of the ALH will probably be completed by 2004-05.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Raj Malhotra » 04 Oct 2002 00:01

Babui 160mm Mortar.

Also I forgot to add

radars for jags

radars/optronic payload for surveillance crafts like Dorniers

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Vick » 04 Oct 2002 00:06

Speaking of the Dorniers, the recent agreement with IAI and HAL with respect to Dhruv is similar to the Coast Guard and Navy Dorniers. The Dornier frames are made by HAL but equipped by the Israelis. These Dorniers are surveillance platforms to check costal smuggling and keeping an eye on the local SLOCs. In war, I guess the IN would utilize them to keep an eye on costal areas looking out for any TSPN ships/specops deployment.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Raj Malhotra » 04 Oct 2002 00:41

I wonder how may dorniers were so produced and what is their ASW capability. we keep on talking about may s and tu-142s forgetting their role.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Riza Zaman » 04 Oct 2002 01:14

Well ... the NSG also trains some of its personell in Israel regularly, so there's one more on that list.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Rudra » 04 Oct 2002 01:26

In/CG seem to have massive 45 fleet of Dorniers
plus 7 on order.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Raj Malhotra » 04 Oct 2002 01:35

Riza, i was only dealing with hardware. But i suppose there were some reports on intelligence interest equipment also being sourced from israel.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Cybaru » 04 Oct 2002 01:38

Originally posted by Raj Malhotra:
I wonder how may dorniers were so produced and what is their ASW capability. we keep on talking about may s and tu-142s forgetting their role.
Don't the Dorniers focus on ASuW only ?? I doubt they do any ASW work.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Vick » 04 Oct 2002 01:39

GD, a lot of those Dorniers are transports and VIP transports. But a good deal of them are being upgraded with Yehudi stuff. Last year in one of the Jane's Navy International, there was an actual one-page advertisement by HAL and IAI trying to sell the Dornier to third parties. Blasted! I am kicking myself for not scanning that! :mad: It mentioned some of the equipment that was installed in them.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Raj Malhotra » 04 Oct 2002 01:45

Actually I meant to say anti submarine warfare only. the point can we get those french guppies.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby advitya » 04 Oct 2002 02:59

Originally posted by Babui:
Is 160mm ammo correct ? Which gun do we have that uses 160mm ?!
It's the Tampella mortar in the heavy mortar regiments.

George J

Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby George J » 04 Oct 2002 03:15

Originally posted by Raj Malhotra:
Riza, i was only dealing with hardware. But i suppose there were some reports on intelligence interest equipment also being sourced from israel.
Actually what Riza stated has a bearing on hardware too. I remember reading reports of Indian forces getting trained in Israel, going there via a third country and coming back with goodies like the Uzi (as you have stated above). Which if my memory serves me correct "is a very compact weapon and can be dismantled and stored in small containers for concealment"....or so the report stated.

This was a very long time ago.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Rudra » 04 Oct 2002 03:25

vick..br page on IN dornier has some israeli kit info. they do AsuW spotting and ELINT/jamming work.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Ananth » 04 Oct 2002 09:13

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
In/CG seem to have massive 45 fleet of Dorniers
plus 7 on order.
Rudra,

Does In/CG mean Indian Coast Guard? If that is the case then according to official coast gaurd web page the total number of Dornier = 19.

Also take a look at the booty here. Lots of pics. Rakesh you can update coast guard section with these pics, if not already done.


-Ananth

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Muppalla » 06 Oct 2002 12:59

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?artid=24341900

India acquires Israeli man-portable radars for LoC.

PTI [ SUNDAY, OCTOBER 06, 2002 09:55:21 AM]

NEW DELHI: In a major bid to beef up surveillance of the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir, India is importing man-portable radars capable of detecting movement across the border, under a deal signed with Israel.

Under the deal worth about $70 million (Rs 350 crores), New Delhi has begun to receive the first of these 1,022 man-portable radars, which are capable of detecting human targets 10 km away, according to defence ministry officials.

Though India, has already inducted these radars in some parts of the LoC, the decision to go in for bulk purchase was taken after Army reported a big spurt in detections of infiltrations following the use of these radars.

Officials said the deal with Israel company EL-OP was for both shorter range 3,000 to 4,000 metre range man-portable radars as well as long range observance and reconaissance systems, after bids by French electronic giant Thales and Sagem were rejected.

However, officials said the negotiations for other forms of close range sensor detectors with the United States were still going on. "We are evaluating the US offer made directly by the Pentagon," they said adding India might opt for American systems as well.

Officials said that the deal with Israel also covered acqusition of 600 Elbit thermal-imaging-stand-alone systems to equip Indian Army's 300 T-72 main battle tanks and 300 Russian BMP II armoured personnel carriers.

Alongwith the man-portable radars, India has also signed a deal to acquire eight more Israeli Searcher-II unmanned Air Vehicles (UAVs) for deployment in Jammu and Kashmir mountainous region to mointor cross-border activity.

The Army recently has had a spate of successes in foiling infiltration bids across the Line of Control, with as many as 40 attempts aborted from the beginning of this year leading to slaying of over 450 militants, mostly Pakistani mercernaries, and capture of a huge quantity of arms and ammunition.

Officials said while the shorter range man-portable radars would be deployed with forward border patrols, the 10 km range sensors would be installed in built-up defence to observe attempts to inflitrate from a distance and chalk out an effective response.

The major bid to shore up detection systems on the LOC, officials said, indicated government's determination to deal sternly with cross-border activity, notwithstanding repeated assurance being held out by Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf to rein in infiltration from Pakistan.

Army officials said most of these man-Portable radars would be delivered by this month-end as the security forces gear up for a major anti-militancy drive after the completion of the election process in the state.

Alongwith the infusion of man-portable and short range sensors for deployment on the LOC, officials said, India had recently concluded a $140 million contract with French companies Thales and Sagem for acquisition of larger air defence radars.

"New sophisticated radars are being inducted in significantly large numbers to beef up our air-defence nework", Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy said.

He said networking the air defence surveillance system was a must for the country, apparently hinting that there were some loopholes in the present radar coverage set up.

However, the air chief said though India was going in for import of major systems, at the same time the country also had a big indegenious radar development potential.

"We have a large in-house talent for both hardware and software radar systems," Krishnswamy said making it clear that imports would be resorted to only where indegenious know-how was not available.

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Re: Israeli participation in Indian Defence (Industry)

Postby Aditya G » 06 Oct 2002 19:09

There are 32 items we have bought from Israel : how many has Israel bought from us??


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