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Having seen the images of the parliament shootout, once again, the inadequate armament and equpiment of the security forces have yet again come to light. None would be more shocking than the images Delhi Policemen with .303s and 50-year old brens, as well as the complete absence of any serious protective gear for most of the security forces.<P>Another galling fact: a company which makes uniforms for Indian paramilitary forces also manufactures those of the Rwandan army.<P>Few would doubt the training, capabilities and sheer bravery of our security forces. <P>However to what extent are they handicapped by the inferior quality of armament, when compared to their counterparts in the West? <P>To what extent could the casualties in incidents such as the parliament shooout have been reduced, had the policemen been better armed and equipped?<P>Often, ludicrous comparisons are made between the equipment of elite American Marines and the ordinary Indian trooper. That these comparisons completely lack perspective and realism is further apparent when one considers the fact that the American defence budget($300b) is 5 times the entire Union budget of India and thus 30 times the Indian defence budget(please correct the figures if necessary)<P>I propose a serious discussion on the precise <B>economics</B> and <B>logistics</B> involved in the issue:<P>** What are the most efficient types of weapons and protective gear for various counter-terrorism operations?<P>** Assuming one arms all deployed units of the non-"elite" internal security forces(CRPF, CISF, BSF...) with more advanced weapons and armour, just what would we be talking about in terms of a budget? How deep can the GOI afford to dip into its pockets?<P>** What may be the political and bureaucratic obstacles? What are the various factors(other than budgetary constraints) that prevent this issue from becoming a national priority?
I have seen sniper teams around White house even in 1996. New Delhi should have a sniper teams for all major establsihments - SC, Parliament etc. There should be elevated observation post at suitable areas.
All the Delhi Police and the CRPF had were<BR>SLRs and brens.<P>Only the Black Cats had AKs. The SPG/NSG guys had MP5s.<P>All the dirty work of killing the terrorists seems to have been done by the CRPF.<P>If one is going to put the CRPF/Delhi Police as the first ring of security, one should give them better arms than these excuses for small arms
Yesterday I was shot by a 7.62 mm SLR. Nothing happened to me because the gun was old. I picked up a new gun and shot my assailants. <P>Luckily there were two cars waiting. One was a 1985 Maruti and the other was newer - a 1989 Amby. I escaped in the newer car - obviously the better one.
Guys, Guys, Guyss don't forget India is not as rich as US. US can invest money and resource in all type of weapons, but in India money is big constraint and accountability is not there. If you give these fancy guns to Bihar or UP police, everybody know what will happen. Small group of efficient and will equiped cops are better than whole police junta with good gadget. Indira G was killed by AK-47. <BR>Than we will hear more gun snatching incidence. If you have noticed Delhi Police guns are chained with their waist belt after guns snatching incidences during Khalistan days.<BR>Well enforcement and honest people are required in police and ofcourse in Politics. But today police response was excellent.
I suppose the AK47 guns are spanking new...designed and built only in the last decade. (they are also more than 50 Years old IIRC)<P>Seriously the Bren (actually the correct term is 7.62 LMG - The Bren was the older .303wala) may be old , but its the most rugged and tested LMG one can have. It hardly jams, barrel change takes a few seconds, and in the rare case it jams, you can take it apart and put it back in a minute. Moreover, it fires the same caliber ammunition as the SLR or the Enfield rifle (Army issue)<P>The SLR..is a single shot, but if you want to give it rapid fire, its in the government's hands. There is nothing wrong with the weapons. I do agree that the Lee Enfield rifles are out of date in todays scenario.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Another galling fact: a company which makes uniforms for Indian paramilitary forces also manufactures those of the Rwandan army. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So? Any problem here?<P>-Jagan
AFAIK - the bren remains a good weapon for close in situations.<P>The 7.62 packs a punch at longer ranges and is accurate - and must not (and cannot) be used for rapid fire spraying like we see Palestinian diwali celebrators do.<P>Someone asked why a policeman took shelter behind a pillar.<P>Two points. Take cover, aim and shoot to kill. One shot is enough - if you have good training and discipline.<P>The second point - if a joker is spraying machingun fire - if you don't take cover - the best weapon in the world won't help.<P>And don;t get fooled by articles linked from B-R that say that US marines are all carrying laser and low light aiming devices. Anyone saw that picture of US marines giving a military send off to a fallen Afghan? They were carrying plain ol M 16s.<P>The ordinary policeman in India carries 303s. There were a few of them about. A 303 can kill from further awy than a Kalashnikov.
A few years ago, I attended a seminar on law and order held by the Goa police to improve police/public relations. <P>Someone in the audience asked about the stens. A senior looking police guy told us there were two reasons why it was still favored by the police, NOT by the babus. One was it's incredible simplicity and reliability, and the second, which is the bit that I remember clearly, is that he said that the range of the sten insured that in a firefight the chances of bystanders getting mowed down was far less. He went on to say, that in his opinion, for India, and given the high density urban conditions of our cities, the sten was better than the Uzi! (Remember, he was talking about law enforcement, not urban warfare).
Cross post<BR><A HREF="http://headlines.sify.com/378news2.html" TARGET=_blank>When Sami ullah and Singh rose to the occasion</A><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> while the terrorists were armed with the deadly AK-47 assault rifles and grenades, the four UP constables had only 3.3 guns.<P>The constables rushed towards the militants, unmindful of risk to their lives and killed three of them.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The point is that in the first ring of security, there is high probability that contact will be established.<P>At that time, at every entry/egress, there need to be atleast a few with small arms with high fire rates/ Decent fully automatic machine pistols / good med range weapons.<P>Lack of an ability to progress is not a rationale for justifying the irrationality of progress.<P>That the police did a great job is due to the people and their training, and was inspite of their guns.<P>At the very least give the guys manning the gates, some kind of bullet proof vest/ helmets.
can a short barrel carbine be made with a<BR>big drum magazine to 'hose' suspect cars<BR>or areas ? <P>bullet proof vests are a must. probably cut<BR>the fatality rates by many orders. I think <BR>along with INSAS , it should be made highest<BR>priority.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mahadev:<BR><STRONG>The point is that in the first ring of security, there is high probability that contact will be established.<P></STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Valid point. And to repeat a question I asked in that other thread, what woeuld have happened if 3 cars with 15 terrorists had gone in yesterday?
I concur. It appears that the CRPF and Delhi Police did the dirty work with .303s, brens and SLRs, and without protective gear, just so that the elite commandos could then patrol the area and show off their MP5s and AK47s!<P>Bullet-proof vest is a minimal requirement for the outer ring. The cops should go on strike for this!
Guys.. <P>> CRPF and Delhi Police. <P>The constables were UP-PAC.. dudes.. the only working weapon most PACs have is a lathi. <P>(Yes yes i know they are called P A C.. but where does it say that they actually have to be armed with `working' guns..)<P>Suno Darling.. Yeh hai india...
Useless trivia:<BR>the range of a Lee-Enfield 0.303 is 3000 yards i.e 1 KM, the lethal range is 550 ie. 183M.<P>I do recollect reading somewhere that the Police are pretty reticent about using the .303 in close quaters or high density crowd control e.g Riots. Coz when they did use real bullets...it went through 7 people. Ek golee aur saat aadmi.<P>Regarding INSAS: the last time our armchair generals on BR were griping bout it..it was the consensus that they arent making enough of it..and that the priority was Army>Paramilitary>CRPF>SRP>Police.<P>Thats a lot of guns ya know?<P>Now why DRDO and it wunderful labs that can make super duper secretive Kanchan armour now make a Kevlar personal armour is a matter of National security. It must be buried is an imported aluminum coffin somewhere.<P>Why we cannot mfg even an AK-47, and why our not so beloved neighbours east of indus have licence mfg H&K MP variants for their police is still a mystery to me? <P>Why do we need everything to be Desi from Scratch? We can make Jags that are as good as if not better than the BAe Jags but for INSAS we have to copy a gas powered AK series put a plastic mag and take 10 years to make it. <P>All this must be rocket science.
Part of the reason that you wouldn't want every cop running around with a machinegun is that you don't want "friendly fire" incidents.<P>But there is no excuse for keeping .303s around. These should be upgraded to SLRs, so that, in such circumstances, fire can returned effectively. The bolt-action .303 takes too long to reload (compared to the SLR, which is automatic). <P>I don't know what the requirements for such "guarding valuable assets" assignments are, but I hope the DP/CRPF folks posted at such places are given specialised training (<I>knowing India, I would be highly surprised if that was the case though</I>).<BR>It is one thing to walk around on a beat, and completely another to guard such establishments, while keeping the process of entering/leaving the premises bearable.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Useless trivia:<BR>the range of a Lee-Enfield 0.303 is 3000 yards i.e 1 KM, the lethal range is 550 ie. 183M.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Unfortunately, this trivia is really useless because it is <B>wrong</B> on many levels.<BR><OL TYPE=1><P><LI>The effective range of the Lee-Enfield rifle is 300 yds (that's three hundred, not three thousand).<P><LI>Apart from anything else, as a matter of basic math, 3000 yds = 2.7km, not 1km.<BR></OL>
a version of the enfield with the barrel clear - not sheated in wood was used by brits<BR>as a sniper rifle for long. I have photos <BR>of it. looks like a typical hunting rifle.<P>in answer to Shiv's question, if 10 cars<BR>had gone in with 100 people , they would<BR>have a killed a lot more guards but I dont<BR>think they would have managed to get inside<BR>easily. at the south of firing, the gates<BR>close, they cant just drive into the central<BR>square. there would have been a pitched battle between the dozens of police outside<BR>and the 50 terrorists. they could have shot<BR>for a while and even managed to escape in 1s<BR>and 2s. any armed men inside (the suited booted Mp-5 people) would run to the verandah above and fire at anything that moved.<P>to really make an impact they would need some<BR>ladders or ropes to climb onto the verandah<BR>and thus have the run of place.<P>get 50 suicidal jihadis into one operation<BR>is quite tough...but its been done.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shiv:<BR><STRONG>AFAIK - the bren remains a good weapon for close in situations.<BR></STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Shiv, I think you are mixing up the Bren and the Sten. The Bren (.303 calibre) and its modern equivalent of 7.62 calibre are LMGs (Light Machine Guns). They are the so-called SAWs (Squad/Section Automatic Weapons) used by the IA and other forces. They are not meant for close-in situations. The Sten (of WW2 vintage) and its modern equivalents of various types (Sterling, Uzi, etc.) are meant for close-in situations. The Sterling carbine is the standard-issue personal weapon for NCOs, JCOs and officers of the IA.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A 303 can kill from further away than a Kalashnikov. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Arguably, this may be true, but only because of the inherent accuracy of a bolt-action single-shot rifle, versus the wild spray-gun effect of a Kalshnikov on full-auto. It si not that the .303 bullet has inherently more stopping-power than a Kalashnikov bullet, or anything like that. IOW, at a given range, the .303 bullet is more likely to actually hit its target than the Kalashnikov bullet. But if both bullets hit their targets, there is no reason to believe that the Lee-Enfield will kill the target any deader than a Kalshnikov will.
<A HREF="http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw.htm</A><P> <A HREF="http://www.atk.com/defense/descriptions/products/Shoulder-firedWeapons/oicw-new.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.atk.com/defense/descriptions/products/Shoulder-firedWeapons/oicw-new.htm</A><P> <A HREF="http://www.atk.com/defense/descriptions/products/Shoulder-firedWeapo" TARGET=_blank>http://www.atk.com/defense/descriptions/products/Shoulder-firedWeapons/images/oicw-5.jpg</A>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mohan Raju:<BR><STRONG><P>Unfortunately, this trivia is really useless because it is <B>wrong</B> on many levels.<BR><OL TYPE=1><P><LI>The effective range of the Lee-Enfield rifle is 300 yds (that's three hundred, not three thousand).<P><LI>Apart from anything else, as a matter of basic math, 3000 yds = 2.7km, not 1km.<BR></OL></STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok ......now that you have forced a tangent. Here goes...3000 yards and 550 yards come from this <a href="http://www.geocities.com/lee_enfield_rifles/TechInfo.html">page.</a><P>The second point...bout yard to meter converstion is mea culpa...thats what not having caffeine in your system before tackling BRF does to you. (i was thinking bout 3 as in 3 feet make a yard)..thats how i got the mixed up numbers<P>So now unless you can provide me a justification about why this page is inaccurate and what ref you have.....i would still concende its 3000/550.<P>Fire away.
george, even a 50cal Barrett probably cant hit anything with accuracy beyond 1500-2000yds. 3000 yds - no 7.62mm rifle I think has the bullet energy to reach that range. you can perhaps lob the bullet at 45' and have it reach that range
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rudra Singha:<BR><STRONG>3000 yds - no 7.62mm rifle I think has the bullet energy to reach that range.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yep thats precisely what this page said...it can reach 3000 yards but it can only effective till 550 yards. <P>From the page, "...550 yards. (Maximum effective range is the greatest distance at which a weapon may be expected to fire accurately to inflict casualties or damage.)"
A simple Google search for the Kalashnikov and Lee Enfiled 303 gives a lot of variable information, but many speak of an <I>effective range</I> of 300 M for the Kalashnikov assault rifle and 800 M for the 303. <P>Note that both weapons retain their lethality - i.e. they can kill over much longer distances. I think effective range refers to the degree of reliability with which one can hit a target with a porticular weapon at that range (my guess)<P>The Bren is stated to have an effective range of 500 M or so<P>A comment about the Bren (degree of authority of comment not known)<P>From the site: <A HREF="http://www.doylefam.freeserve.co.uk/Allied.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.doylefam.freeserve.co.uk/Allied.htm</A> <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> This is a brilliant weapon to use when you are outnumbered and large amounts of enemies are advancing towards you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For those who are interested - the following is one particularly interesting link.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/index.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/index.html</A>
In confirmation and acknowledgement of what Mohan Raju says above regarding my confusion of bren and sten, the bren is pictured here<BR> <A HREF="http://www.hidden-and-dangerous2.co.uk/photo/tnbre.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hidden-and-dangerous2.co.uk/photo/tnbre.jpg</A> <BR>and here <A HREF="http://www.bigjimsmgs.com/IMAGES99/bren.JPG" TARGET=_blank>http://www.bigjimsmgs.com/IMAGES99/bren.JPG</A> <P>The weapons carried by some of the security forces in Parliament, apart from 7.62 Ishapore semi automatics and .303 are the 9 mm sub machine guns described here - characterized by a curved magazine that sticks out at a right angle from the middle of the gun.<P>More on this when I find out details.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Sub-Machine-Guns.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Sub-Machine-Guns.html</A>
To understand why the Indian police and paramilitary are ill equipped you have to understand the history and psyche of the Indian governmental thinking.<P>From the British, successive Indian governments inherited a paranoia of internal armed revolt from these forces. This lack of trust always lead to their being ill equipped. A similar paranoia about the armed forces saw them marginalized (till recently) on all acquisition and strategy/planning processes.<P>The paranoia about the police forces became an unpleasant reality during the police strike (revolt ?) was it in 1975 ? when central paramilitary forces hunkered down in their posts agitating for various reasons. The army had to be called out and in some cases opened fire with machine guns and mortars.<P>Circles of paranoia, layer upon layer radiating out from the center.....
The 9mm submachine gun can be seen in action in a Maratha Light Infantry training video here<BR> <A HREF="http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/clips/roomatak.rm" TARGET=_blank>www.bharat-rakshak.com/clips/roomatak.rm</A> <P>Please do not foregt to also visit the MLIR web page at <A HREF="http://www.roa-mlirc.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.roa-mlirc.org/</A>
I only hope that 7.62 mm FN FAL (and other versions) that're being replaced by 5.56mm INSAS for IA, are recycled to the police forces in turn replacing the 0.303 ones. <BR>IMHO, it was somewhere around 90,000 (1997 figures) INSAS already in IA service!!<P>So many people here are talking about 0.303 and it's capabilities - just curious to know, how many amongst them have actually fired from it (atleast once)??
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vmshete:<BR><STRONG>How about providing these guys with INSAS 5.56mm RIFLES?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hummm ... let's see how many needs to replaced,<P>0.410 Muskets ------ 90,000<BR>0.303 SMLE Mk.1/4 - 500,000<BR>7.62mm 1A1 SLR ---- 100,000<BR>7.62mm 2A/2A1 ----- 400,000<BR>------------------------------<BR>Total ----------- 1,090,000<P>What is OFB capability for production/year, by the way??
Here are some pics;<P><A HREF="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20011213/wl/imdf13122001065907a.html" TARGET=_blank>SLR-1</A><P><A HREF="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20011213/wl/imdf13122001064216a.html" TARGET=_blank>SLR - 2</A><P><A HREF="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20011213/wl/imdf13122001065934a.html" TARGET=_blank>Sten - 1</A><P><A HREF="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20011213/wl/imdf13122001064019a.html" TARGET=_blank>Sten - 2</A><P>The only short-range, yet 'packing a punch' weapon that I can think of would be some sort of a shotgun.
>>>What is OFB capability for production/year, by the way?? <P>From this document, I may guess about 100,000 per year.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.ishapur.com/files/insas_article.pdf" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ishapur.com/files/insas_article.pdf</A><P>Not a bad idea at all. phased introduction helps correct problems fed back and improves the weapon quality.<P>Not if the army does not want it.. another tehelka stuff!
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