Questions on the PAF

Imtiaz Ahmed
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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby Imtiaz Ahmed » 29 Jul 1999 02:30

In response to your last question, my guess is that Karachi would be a little under 150 miles [240 kilometres,as the crow flies] from Lakhpat, Gujarat. Anyone from Gujarat that is familiar with that area?<P>

Imtiaz Ahmed
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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby Imtiaz Ahmed » 29 Jul 1999 02:38

I suspect there are points north of Lakhpat, Gujarat on the Indian side that are closer to Karachi by about 25 KM. So the IAF has quite a few launch points that it can choose from. I dont think any of them would be less than 200 KM from Karachi. The distance will also depend the location of the site within Karachi that the IAF wants to target and whether is on the western or eastern side of Karachi. I guess the short answer to your last question is, Yes.

Imtiaz Ahmed
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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby Imtiaz Ahmed » 29 Jul 1999 02:43

Is there a proposal for a Prithvi III that has a range of around 350-400 KM? What is the progress on the naval Prithvi?

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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby Badar » 29 Jul 1999 07:20

Hi,<P>Gentlemen, Can someone please tell me what a 'naval prithvi' is? Is it some sort of LAM?<BR>What platforms are supposed to carry it?<BR>Can anyone point me to sources of information. <P>

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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby Gireesh Nair » 29 Jul 1999 07:47

Pakistan does have Hawk batteries. I think they were delivered during the Soviet invasion of Afganistan. There was talk of increasing the range of the Prithvi TBM to about 350-450km range. I am sure it is progressing slowly but surely with some decent solid fuel motors. <BR>The first batch of prithvis are probably going through a retrofit/modification from Liquid fuel to Solid fuel. Wonder if any one would know the difference in CEP(circular Error Probable) between the older and later versions. <BR>The Pakistani Airforce is pretty good in their own right and i dont think it will be wise to underestimate them in terms of individual skill level. But they do fly a lot of crappy stuff like A-5 Fantans and Shenyang F-7 which are just about ok for day time point defense. Their Mirage fleet should be pretty well equiped,more so then the F-16 squadrons due to the Pressler and other sanctions.

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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby advitya » 29 Jul 1999 08:04

ramen<P>>btw mig-27 does not fire AAMs. <P>Yes they do. They carry IR R-60s for self defense.<BR>

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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby rama » 29 Jul 1999 08:54

<BR>Isn't active jamming done by emitting radiation in the same frequency band as the radar itself? Since the radar's receiver is looking for reflections in that band, the jammer will completely overload the preamplifiers - why should this be different for air-to-air? Ramen, do I misunderstand your question?<P>Besides PAF's F-16's, their MirageIII's and F-7's probably have ECM pods as well. One tactic the IAF can use is to buddy-up aircraft with different radars, so when the jammers lock on to jamming the stronger radar, the buddy plane can pick up the jammers. This is where the bewildering multitude of IAF weaponry can be put to good use. <P>Chaff is less useful as a counter-measure these days with the advent of Doppler radars. They can screen by speed as well, and chaff can't keep flying at the same speed as the target itself. In the IAF, the Mirage2000, MiG29 and the Su-30's probably have doppler radars, as might the Mig-21-93. In the PAF, the F-16 and the Griffo fitted MirageIII and F-7's have this capability.<P>Short range AAM's: Is the Archer AA-11 in service yet, as the BR page says? This off-boresight missile, to be used on the Mig29s and Su-30 - as well as Mig-21-93 is far more deadly than anything PAF (or pretty much anyone else for that matter) has - they get whipped in BVR and they get whipped in WVR again. The MagicII's are probably about as good as the AIM9L's. The AA-8 is an extremely compact close-range missile, ground attack aircraft like the Mig-27's (and helos like the Hind) can carry it and surprise lurking interceptors that get too close.

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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby Sumant » 29 Jul 1999 10:58

My two penny's worth.<P>rama : <BR> Yes, active jamming does involve either populating the environment with white noise, (in the same band as the radar) or intelligently emitting controlled beams of radio energy to simulate decoy target in different locations. The latter seems more effective in a/a combat.<P>There was a good article about 'intelligent jamming' in Princeton Science Review some time back. I'll try to dig that up.<P>But essentially, a strike a/s or its screen, detects an enemy radar band, and lock sonto it. It then emits multiple narrow beams back to the source, that is the receiver antenna, phase shifted and angled at precisely calculated values to simulate a/cs in different sectors. This allows a safe corridor for the strike a/c to complete its mission by drawing away possible SAMs.<P>Flooding the area with white noise sure helps, but only as an extreme measure. This is most annoying to teh radar operators, as the screens show spikes and irregular blips. The best defence in such cases is to switch off the reciever, or change the radar band. A good jammer will obviously lock onto the new frequency and continue its work. Overall, a lot of digital signal processing goes into radar detection as well as ECM. <P>A question... are frequency hopping radars possible? If yes, do they already exist? <P>A good (doppler) radar with very narrow beam widths can reduce the negative effects of ECM. Combined with WVR IR signatures, and other optical observations, including one-man observation teams, an effective detection network is possible. Anything electronic, and there will always be a way to defeat it.<P>(BTW, a lot of this is second hand knowledge, so excuse the inevitabel inaccuracies.)<P>Hope this helps.<p>[This message has been edited by sumant (edited 29-07-99).]

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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby VivekT » 29 Jul 1999 12:23

(a) what kind of ECM devices do they have and what are their aircraft that have it ?<BR>The older F-16s can only carry jamming devices externally, but the newer F-16s have internal jamming pods. I think that their A-5 & A-5Ms (Pakistani versions of Chinese Q-5/Q-5M) have provision for jamming pods. This is not comfirmed though.<P>(b) how is a radar in a-to-a mode jammed ? <BR>The mode the radar is acting in does not realy matter. All jammers work on the same principle. When they detect an incoming Electromagnetic wave, they send back a signal of the same frequency but at a greater power towards the receiver. This creates a lot of false signals on the radar screen. The better jammers (like the Rafale is suppoded to have) send back a signal of the same frequency & *same* power to the receiver, but 180 degrees out of phase (look up your 12th grade Physics books for what that means). This totally hides the aircraft from the radar, the radar does not even know it is being jammed.<P>(c) do all their a/c have flare and chaff dispensers to defend from IR and Radar homing missiles ?<BR>All F-16s have provision for chaff/flares. The A-5s carry chaff/flares in their tail barbette. Unless I'm mistaken, even their F-6 (Chinese J-6s derived from MiG-19) can carry chaff/flares in their tail barbette if the braking parachute is removed. Their J-7s and F-7s(?) can also carry flare/chaff pods.<P>(d) do they have HARM missiles ? do their saudi masters have it ? any idea how much inventory of HARMs we have ? <BR>Pakistan does not have any HARMs, they have some of the older version - 'Standard ARM'<P>(e) how do our short-range AAMs compare to their AAMs ?<BR>Pakistan has two main kinds of short range AAMs, the US AIM-9 Sidewinder series and the French R-550 Magic. Except for one variant of the Sidewinder which has an all aspect capability, all other missiles are rear aspect, which means that they can only fire at another aircraft from behind it. All aspect missiles don't have any problems from firing head-on. Except for the Magic 2, R-530 (and possibly the Mica) which are French in origin, al Indian missiles are of Russian make. In short range missiles we have an advantage. The ex-USSR has always been ahead of NATO in terms of IR missile capability (this is ironic, since their forst missile was made from stolen designs of the AIM-9 Sidewinder). India has R-13, R-60 & R-73 (NATO designations AA-2 'Atoll', AA-8 'Aphid' and AA-11 'Archer'). the R-13 is comparable to the older variants of the AIM-9. A more modern capable comparision is the R-60. It has the range and accuracy of the AIM-9 but is much lighter and manoeuverable. The ultimate in IR AAMs is the R-73. This is the longest range IR AAM ever made, and rivals radar guided missiles in range. It has all-aspect capability and is *very* manoeuverable as, beside the normal fins for control, it also has thrust vectored controls.<P>But it is mistaken notion that PAF does not have BVR missiles. They have AIM-7 Sparrow missiles which have a 20nm range. To counter this India has the R-47? 'Alamo' and R-77 'Adder', R-530 and possibly the Mica. Except for the Alamo, all Indian missile are better than the Sparrow.<P><BR>(g) do they rely on GCI or autonomous intercepts ? how good is their ADGES network ? can it be hit and reduced with prithvi and HARM combination ?<BR>The Prithvi would not be used for destroying the radar as it is not accurate enough. But India has many ARM (Anti-Radiation Missiles). These are all of Soviet origin.

Vikram Rathore
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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby Vikram Rathore » 29 Jul 1999 12:49

ramen,<P>IMHO- their pilots and tactics are excellent, but yes, they lack BVR capability. The F-16s can carry jamming pods to spoof radar- not suree how it works- am a poor seller of soap, not an engineer :-)<P>Their best close combat AAM is the AIM-9L, which by all accounts is an excellent weapon, easily the equal, if not better than the R-60. Of course, we have the R-73 which should have an edge on the AIM-9L

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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby Rupak » 29 Jul 1999 16:43

rama:<P>>One tactic the IAF can use is to buddy-up >aircraft with different radars, so when the<BR>>ammers lock on to jamming the stronger >radar, the buddy plane can pick up the >jammers.<P>This is standard parctice in the IAF, given the huge numbers of MiG-21s still around. <P>>Is the Archer AA-11 in service yet, as the >BR page says?<P>Yes. The R-73 has been in service for a number of years now and there are several photos on the BR's IAF site with aircraft carrying it.<P>Vivek:<P>>To counter this India has the R-47? 'Alamo' >and R-77 'Adder', R-530 and possibly the >Mica. Except for the Alamo, all Indian >missile are better than the Sparrow.<P>The Alamo is the R-27. Also India fields the Super 530D. The 'Alamo' is a superior missile to the AIM-7 with greater range, greater resistance to jamming and greater manouverability. The missile in Indian service comparable (but less capable than) the AIM-7 is the R-23 (AA-7 "Apex") which is the MiG-23MF's main BVR weapon.<P>>But India has many ARM (Anti-Radiation >Missiles). These are all of Soviet origin. <P>Not all our ARMs are soviet/russian. The ARMAT is a Matra product.

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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby merlin » 29 Jul 1999 20:05

We don't have the MICA yet, though the French are offering it with the ten 2000-5 that we may purchase.<BR>

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Re: Questions on the PAF

Postby Lakshman » 29 Jul 1999 20:13

Question:<P>In regards to jamming, would an Indian AWACS platform not be a counter to PAF jamming practices since AWACS is diffilcult to jam? <P>Also what about using an AWACS platform to jam the PAF, is it possible?<P>Lakshman


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