Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

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Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 18 Jul 2002 08:50

A new JDW article (16 July 2002) on the Klub ASCM has enabled me to update the Klub page. I am posting the updated paras/sentences below

Updated Klub ASCM page:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Klub.html

"At 20 km from the target, the 3M-54E's supersonic solid rocket-powered third-stage terminal 'dart' separates from the missile, descends to 3 to 5 metres above sea level and accelerates to a supersonic speed of Mach 2.9 in a zigzagging terminal run to hit its target."

"...the INS Sindhugosh might also be equipped with the 3M-14E, in addition to the 3M-54, during her mid-life refit."

"Acceptance trials conducted by the Indian Navy for its modernised Sindhugosh Class submarines, resulted in six successful 3M-54E test launches which demonstrated both minimum (20km) and maximum (220km) range capability against surface targets. During a test launch, in an Indian Ocean test range, a 3M-54E missile launched from INS Sindhushastra failed to hit its target. Upon further investigation it was revealed that the fault was with the target on the test range and not with the ARGS-54 seeker. An anchored target with a corner radar reflector simulating a frigate-class surface ship was displaced and the reflector began to radiate signals in a direction perpendicular to a flight trajectory of the missile's third supersonic stage. As a result, the ARGS-54 seeker failed to acquire the target. During qualification tests conducted for the Talwar Class frigates, a 3M-54E missile completed a successful live-fire test in the Barents Sea, demonstrating its maximum operational range of 220 km. The missile performed flawlessly and accurately hit the target."

Four Indian Kilo submarines have been upgraded so far:

INS Sindhuraj S57
INS Sindhuvir S58
INS Sindhuratna S59
INS Sindhukesari S60

S57 and S58 were upgraded at the Admiralty Shipyard in St Petersburg. S59 and S60 were upgraded at Zvyozdochka shipbuilding plant in Severodvinsk. INS Sindhugosh S55 will be the third Indian submarine to be refitted there. She will be arriving at Severodvinsk in Aug/Sep 2002 and the refit will be complete by 2004.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Aditya Vikram » 18 Jul 2002 23:15

Now that we are on the topic of the Klubs has any more details come out about he new Kilo's ordered by the Chinese?
and what about the land attack and anti-submarine variants were they tested??
and is the Diameter of the Upgraded Kilo class Vertical tubes ??
Does it nessecary have to be the same 533mm of the horizontal tubes or can it have a larger diameter to accomadate Bramhos????

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 18 Jul 2002 23:48

Aditya, what vertical launchers, there arent any vertical launchers on the Kilos, they fire their Klubs through the torpedo tubes just like a torpedo.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Shalav » 18 Jul 2002 23:57

I thought the klubs were launched from inclined launch tubes?

Now where did I get that idead! :confused:

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_4200 » 19 Jul 2002 00:47

Klubs can be launched from both inclined and vertical tubes. Earlier generation Klubs used to be launched from inclined tubes, particularly onboard suface vessels.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Rudra » 19 Jul 2002 00:52

well well well....thanks for the update. sets to
rest many "worries" and "hand-wringing" on the
Klub.

about the only subs that have VLS tubes are
US(688I-8 cell for tomahawk),seawolf,virginia,
tridents, le troimphant(fr), vanguard(uk),delta(ru),oscar(ru),taifun(ru-retired).

Akulas do not have VLS. nor do trafalgar(uk) or
amethyste(fr). sverodobinsk(Ru) would have been
first Ru SSN class to have cells (for Yakhont).

its easy to say "just install a plug"...but hard
to do. affects the whole ship and major major
engg work to rewire everything in front and back.
its much better to design it from ground up for
a new class.

someday our Shiva class SSGNs will certainly have
it.

I presume these targets are just small wooden
crates with a sea-anchor and a metal pole mounting
a reflector...so any lurking "faithful ones" dont
get any ideas that a PN surface ship with a RCS
100s of times greater and reflecting at all angles
can fool Klub. :D :D

Da Satan is coming.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby JTull » 19 Jul 2002 00:53

Originally posted by Shalav:
I thought the klubs were launched from inclined launch tubes?

Now where did I get that idead! :confused:
Klub-S (with India) would be launched via torpedo tubes. Klub-N (on Talwar class) can be launched from vertical or inclined launchers.

This report does well to rest recent speculation about sudden void in IN's capabilities after recent tests didn't go as well.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby JTull » 19 Jul 2002 00:56

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:

someday our Shiva class SSGNs will certainly have
it.
Shiva class? Where did you get this name?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby GGanesh » 19 Jul 2002 03:00

What's an SSGN??

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Priyank » 19 Jul 2002 03:11

IIRC, SSGN is a nuclear powered cruise missile submarine.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby NRao » 19 Jul 2002 03:14

SS -- Submarine
SSBN -- Nuclear Powered Ballistic Missile Submarine
SSG -- Guided Missile Submarine
SSGN -- Nuclear Powered Guided Missile Submarine
SSK -- Hunter-Killler Submarine
SSN -- Nuclear Powered Submarine
SSQ -- Communications or ELINT submarine (unofficial)
SSQN --Nuclear Powered Communications or ELINT submarine (unofficial)
I presume these targets are just small wooden crates with a sea-anchor and a metal pole mounting a reflector...so any lurking "faithful ones" dont get any ideas that a PN surface ship with a RCS 100s of times greater and reflecting at all angles can fool Klub.
Faithfull Ones have to be concerned about RCS only if they are out at sea. Thus, they have a MUCH better plan. They intend "hiding" their ships in the Karachi port. The port clutter has some chance of confusing the Klub. :lol:

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Gerard » 19 Jul 2002 03:36

How effective is the land attack version of the Klub? I presume it is for shore targets only?
Can it strike deep inland?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Rudra » 19 Jul 2002 03:39

>where did I get the Shiva class name ?

after you reach 8000+ posts, these little
liberties are allowed...its a good name, the
only proposed name in public thus far. ATV
sounds so unromantic.

>The port clutter has some chance of confusing
>the Klub.

..so it hits the warehouse with 100 tons of
naval ammo & missiles stacked inside. your move
next.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_4200 » 19 Jul 2002 03:56

Given below are major submarine classifications,

SS - Submersible Ship
SSK - Submersible Ship Killer
SSG - Submersible Ship Guided
SSN - Submersible Ship Nuclear
SSGN - Submersible Ship Guided Nuclear
SSBN - Submersible Ship Balastic Nuclear

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Sukumar » 19 Jul 2002 04:22

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
>where did I get the Shiva class name ?

after you reach 8000+ posts, these little
liberties are allowed...its a good name, the
only proposed name in public thus far. ATV
sounds so unromantic.
Shiva is too good a name to waste on an SSGN. I would rather Shiva be the name for an ICBM capable of taking out a city.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_4013 » 19 Jul 2002 05:01

Originally posted by R Sukumar:
Shiva is too good a name to waste on an SSGN. I would rather Shiva be the name for an ICBM capable of taking out a city.
The perfect name for such an ICBM would be
"Brahma astra" . Mythologically speaking at
least - an all powerful weapon which once invoked cannot be recalled. :)

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Rudra » 19 Jul 2002 07:22

early in life I learnt a lesson. small improvements
in things often used matter more than great ones in
stuff thats seldom used. hence Bhim or Karna will
be more useful than improving Agni CEP by 30m.

so while one may anoint an ICBM with a good name,
it really stands less chance of being used and in
public eye.

A SSN on the other hand could see heavy and sustained
action, peacetime snooping missions...Kilos/U214 carry only about 15
weapons. seawolf/virginia carries 50 weapons. think
of the fun that can be hand with 10 torps and 40 Klubs ?

PRC has this massive lines of container traffic
carrying manufactured goods to japan/EU/USA and
tankers brining in oil. In any future scrap, these
SLOCs have to be raided.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Div » 19 Jul 2002 07:33

So, no more talk of the Klub being a dud?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 19 Jul 2002 08:56

glad to read that info clears up some speculation that awful article in defnews caused.
BTW just wondering can't the vertical launcher in Talwar also carry Brahmos because i assume the russians are fitting a universal vertical launcher on Talwar (it is being fitted on sverodobinsk) the cell is capable of firing most russian SSM including Yakhont/Brahmos and Klub.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 19 Jul 2002 13:48

Originally posted by tijo:
Given below are major submarine classifications,

SSK - Submersible Ship Killer
Nope, SSK means a conventional submarine, i.e. diesel powered sub.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby vverma » 19 Jul 2002 17:20

Originally posted by Nandai:
Originally posted by tijo:
[b]Given below are major submarine classifications,

SSK - Submersible Ship Killer
Nope, SSK means a conventional submarine, i.e. diesel powered sub.[/b]
Nandai is right. SSK is a diesel powered hunter-killer and SSN is a nuclear powered hunter-killer.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 19 Jul 2002 20:14

Well, the exact definition, according to Jane's should be:

SSK - Conventional Submarine (diesel-electric) with ASW capability

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_4200 » 19 Jul 2002 21:24

MY MISTAKE !!! Please disregard the previous update.

SSK stands for Ship Submersible Kerosene
or Konventionelle.

SSG - Ship Submersible Guided
SSN - Ship Submersible Nuclear
SSGN - Ship Submersible Guided Nuclear
SSBN - Ship Submersible Ballistic Nuclear

Also US Navy just has one SSK and that was used for research. Now in big trouble due to fire on it, while on an experiment with a new torpedo.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 23 Jul 2002 06:39

Originally posted by Div:
So, no more talk of the Klub being a dud?
Yup! You got that right!

And guys....just in case you don't know --> the 3M-14E is the land attack variant in the Klub family of missiles.

Sui Gas Plant: Here comes Klub...he he he :D

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Austin » 23 Jul 2002 13:31

Though No Doubt That Club Is a good Long Range AShM , But I think it role in attacking Long/Medium Range Land Target will be minimal to the Extent that it can only attak stationary Targets whose co-ordinates are known in Advance and with all those digital maps to do that Job.

But an effective LACM should be able to and perahaps we can modify the KLUB to do that in Future

>>> Able To attack Slow moving Land Targets like say Missile Carrying Truck etc
>>> Should be able to accept Targets Co-ordinated via DataLink after being Launched via A/C , Ships or Sattelites , IIRC in one of the recent test Launch of Tomahawk the missile was able to receive updated target information while on Cruise and able to then attack it , This is vital since in the future war , there will be a lot of High Value moving targets like a Missile launcer on the move
>>>> Improved Guidance , Probably Culb needs something like DSMC (Digital Scene Matching Capability ) to have a very precice Lock on Targtets and also to avoid Jamming which the Radars no matter how good are prone to .
>>> One can derive a STANDARD LACM for all he three services from CLUB , Providing a standard capability for all the services.
>>> Finally range is one issue which CLUB need to increase further 300 Km for LACM is not good enough , doubling the range will atkleast have a Good Stand Off capibility since the launching platform is also at great risk if the range is short.

IMHO. I believe the Club provides a very good Platform for having the above capabilities and something we can look forward to , Guess we are working on the Mystical Sagarika as LACM lets see whats come up .

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 23 Jul 2002 15:50

Hi,

I presume these targets are just small wooden
crates with a sea-anchor and a metal pole mounting
a reflector...so any lurking "faithful ones" dont
get any ideas that a PN surface ship with a RCS
100s of times greater and reflecting at all angles
can fool Klub


Unlike the pole mounted reflectors, any PN ship will presumably be maneuvering hard, jamming for all its worth, firing chaff like no tommorow and trying to put as much lead in the air between it and the missile as possible.

How effective is the land attack version of the Klub?

Now that is the sixty four dollar question.

Rakesh, Would 4, 6 or even 8 Klubs make a difference to the sui gas plant?

Able To attack Slow moving Land Targets like say Missile Carrying Truck etc

The real trick is not in hitting a missile truck but in finding it in the first place and keeping it found until a weapon can be brought to bear on it.

there will be a lot of High Value moving targets like a Missile launcer on the move

Hitting a high value moving target (like a tank) in plain sight is hard enough from a distance of 2-5 miles, trying to hit one from ranges of a few hundred miles seems a mite ambitious.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Austin » 23 Jul 2002 16:53

>>>>>"Hitting a high value moving target (like a tank) in plain sight is hard enough from a distance of 2-5 miles, trying to hit one from ranges of a few hundred miles seems a mite ambitious."

High Value Target here means Mobile Missile Launcher , Mobile C3 Nodes etc , Tank was not on my mind .I think an anti-tank missile will do the job well .
All these strategic targets keeps on moving , or atleast the enemy will try its best to not to keep it stationary for too long , also these targets could be well defended so sending an A/C might be Risky so a CM with the ability to receive target info on real time or near real time basis will do the Job better , Ofcourse one must/can Track enemy assets via Sats , JSTARS etc and with such capability and ablity to hand off target to a CM will come in very handy
All the Futrure Tomahawk will have such ability and the US did test it to do such a Job

>>>The real trick is not in hitting a missile truck but in finding it in the first place and keeping it found until a weapon can be brought to bear on it.

I agree , It requires a whole lot of asset to do all that and missile is just one of them ,other could be Good Intelligence , Tracking capability vi Satts & AC and of Course a bit of Luck too , I think at the moment Only US has the means to do all this and we still have a Long way to go

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Div » 23 Jul 2002 17:01

The ability to hit mobile land based targets from hundreds of kilometers would require absolute perfect co-ordination between surveillance assets (satellites, UAVs), battle management platforms (JStars) and the actual attack weapon; IMO maybe one country possesses all these pieces to the puzzle.

A more realistic approach in the Indian case might be DSPA a/c hunting for these targets.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby NRao » 23 Jul 2002 19:39

Austin,

Going beyond stationary, GSP cooridinated targets is asking for rudimentary or remote intelligence. The more we ask from such a machine the more we get into the realm of unmanned flights with growing built-in intelligence. IMHO, it is far better to fund true unmanned machines that perform these functions and return to base - can be used for multiple missions: intel, sanitise, bombing, etc. This, perforce, will get into intel bombs, PGMs, etc. Smaller versions could be ship launched too. But, that is a topic unto itself. :)

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Gerard » 23 Jul 2002 19:50

Originally posted by Austin:
Targets whose co-ordinates are known in Advance and with all those digital maps to do that Job.
Digital terrain maps?
Is the land attack Klub that sophisticated?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Rudra » 23 Jul 2002 20:38

Unlike the pole mounted reflectors, any PN ship
will presumably be maneuvering hard, jamming for
all its worth, firing chaff like no tommorow and
trying to put as much lead in the air between it and the missile as possible.

> a credible statement - for a modern NATO
ship. now if we can move on to what vintage
stuff PN has .... or likely to have .... IN ships
are more heavily armed and can operate in larger
groups and even then, the exocet is considered
a serious threat (thus Barak).

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_4531 » 24 Jul 2002 03:40

klub

Jack Spencer, a defense analyst and senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation, noting that the KLUB and other Russian missile were designed with American targets in mind."This anti-ship missile is very difficult to defend against and it was developed to kill American ships," emphasized Spencer."The thing to remember is that the United States depends largely on its Navy to project power around the world. So we should find it exceedingly troubling that these anti-ship missiles are proliferating at such a dangerous rate," noted Spencer.http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 4624.shtml

Another version of the system, 3M-54E1, is intended for installation on board small-displacement ships or submarines. This version is made up of a launch stage and a winged subsonic cruise stage. The 3M-14E winged missile is designed to engage ground targets. It is made up of a launch stage and a low-flying subsonic winged cruise stage. The missile’s onboard flight control system has a barometric altimeter, which provides for a covert flight as the missile maintains flight altitude precisely and follows terrain features, as well as a satellite navigation system which ensures high missile cueing accuracy. India has reportedly purchased the 3M54 missile from Russia and is currently refitting five of the ten 877EKM (KILO) class submarines to fire the KLUB missile. India's tenth KILO sub, the Sindhushastra, was launched in July of 2000 at St. Petersburg. China is also reported to be interested in purchasing the KLUB to arm the PLA Navy force of KILO submarines.

http://www.softwar.net/rfed.html

TYPE - ANTI-SHIP/LAND ATTACK CRUISE MISSILE

MISSILEWARHEAD - ANTI-SHIP 440 LB. CONVENTIONAL HIGH EXPLOSIVE ON HYPERSONIC VEHICLE- LAND ATTACH 880 LB. CONVENTIONAL HIGH

EXPLOSIVERANGE - ANTI-SHIP 11O MILESLAND ATTACK 220 MILESWING SPAN - 10.1 FEET BODY DIA. - 2.52 FEETLENGTH - 27.9 FEET WEIGHT - 4,400 POUNDSENGINE - ANTI-SHIP SOLID ROCKET BOOSTER/TURBOJET SUSTANINER/HYPERSONIC KILL VEHICLELAND ATTACK SOLID ROCKET BOOSTER/TURBOJET SUSTAINERGUIDANCE - ANTI-SHIP ACTIVE RADAR HOMINGLAND ATTACK INTERNAL/TERRIAN FOLLOWING RADARSPEED - MACH .6 TO .8 TURBOJET CRUISEANTI-SHIP THIRD STAGE KILL VEHICLE HYPESONIC MACH 2.9SEPERATES INSIDE LAST 15 N. MILES OF TARGET NOVATOR NPO EKATERINBURG, RUSSIA

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 24 Jul 2002 08:45

Hi,

a credible statement - for a modern NATO
ship. now if we can move on to what vintage
stuff PN has .... or likely to have ....


Drona, well Type 21 in PN service do have COGAG engines, couple of Type 670 jammers and DLC Chaff launchers as well as a Phlanx or two. I dont see why they cant run around, jam, distract with chaff or shoot 20mm at an incoming?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 24 Jul 2002 09:22

TSP's type 21/Amazon frigate is the most sophiscated vessel on their arsenal that said it is more than 25 years old and the air search radar is pretty antique so there is very little chance that vessel could even detect the klub missiles. Even if they do their chinese LY-60 SAM has no anti missile capability and Klub missile is too fast for phalanx CIWS guns to shoot down. Also the jammer wasn't even capable of affecting the exocet during the falklands so i doubt whether they can affect the performance of Klub in anyway.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Austin » 24 Jul 2002 17:24

Niranjan
"Going beyond stationary, GSP cooridinated targets is asking for rudimentary or remote intelligence. The more we ask from such a machine the more we get into the realm of unmanned flights with growing built-in intelligence. IMHO, it is far better to fund true unmanned machines that perform these functions and return to base - can be used for multiple missions: intel, sanitise, bombing, etc. This, perforce, will get into intel bombs, PGMs, etc. Smaller versions could be ship launched too. But, that is a topic unto itself."

Unmanned Fighting vehical is still far off idea even for the most technologically advanced country , these babies are still on the drawing board , It will take even a Decade or More for the US to come up with a Viable option on this front , and for India it will be 2-3 decades , although IIRC it is Kalams pet project the so called 'Reusable Hypersonic Missile" which can attack targets and come back again all on the Drawing Board so at present some form of advanced cruise missile is a viable option for India in the coming decade , And we are difanetaly working on Advanced Guidance having AI capability , which has been said by our scientist from time to time .

John
The only way the pakistani could dream of defeting the Klub is by means of Advance Jamers , although wepons etc on the Paki ship are not advanced , But they have Good EW/ ESM capibility on their ship through western country , Hard Kill Is not an option for them , Neverthless against Supersonic Klub Hard Kill will be an option for very few countries .

Few Questions :
>>>> Does any one have any Idea on the status of P-15A .
>>>> Does the Launcher of Club has to capability to carry different Missile aka Standard Launcher beyound the Club Family . Perahaps we could have some form of VL Kashmir Sa-n-17 , instead of those Single arm Launchers

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 24 Jul 2002 19:15

Does the Launcher of Club has to capability to carry different Missile aka Standard Launcher beyound the Club Family . Perahaps we could have some form of VL Kashmir Sa-n-17 , instead of those Single arm Launchers
I had the question before don't think SA-11/17 are capable of VLS launch. Rif-M/SA-10 missiles could be fired but depends on what kind of vertical launcher is used we won't know that till talwar arrives.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Rudra » 24 Jul 2002 19:44

can Goalkeeper 30mm manage supersonic ASMs ? or
are standard/aster/RAM the only hard kill options?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 24 Jul 2002 20:48

Goalkeeper can handle supersonic AShM, and so can Phalanx as a matter of fact, the US Navy recently tested the latest Phalanx version against supersonic targets, and it managed to shoot them down.

http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/briefs/031202.html

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 24 Jul 2002 20:59

Regarding russian VLS, we have discussed that before, and I asked the people on the warships1.com boards about it. They said that the russians doesnt seem to have any standardised VLS like the american mk 41 or the french Sylver. It seems that russians got one VLS for each kind of missile family.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 25 Jul 2002 00:27

yes new versions of phalanx are capable of handing supersonic ashm but fact remains the velocity of the supersonic ashm is so high that even if they are ripped apart at 300 to 400 meters the debris can still hit their target so 30 mm guns like AK-630 and goalkeeper offer better protection. Also Klub is not supersonic all the way it only goes supersonic when in terminal flight so its pretty vunerable when it is crusing towards its target to SAM missiles like aster.
Nandai u right russians never did devolop a VLS system like MK 41 because it wasn't in their top priority during cold war they had enough money to field kirov battle cruisers and countless ashm so they did not want a standard sam system or ashm.
But nowdays with Russian navy being bankrupt I have read countless reports of universal russian vertical launcher being devoloped or devoloped for newer vessels the launcher can fire S-300 SAM and cruise missiles.
>>>> Does any one have any Idea on the status of P-15A .
don't know the first vessel steel cuting was supposed to occur by know. I suspect possible armament should be three*8 cell yakhont launchers.


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