Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

maz
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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby maz » 24 Sep 2002 01:17

Hi, this is Mazumdar. I cannot recall if I captioned the pix in the iFR article or not.
Just about everyone, including yours truly, is confused about the pennant number of the S'Shastra. Several pix have shown it as S65. The IFR book published by the IN lists it as S65. Logically it should have been S64. In the absence of any other official information, the most plausible explanation is that S64 is the "other" Amur for a foreign customer.

The only way to answer this riddle is to see what transpires over the next few years or months for that matter.

Re penant numbers, in navies (and in most other things in general)it is a case of monkey see, monkey do. The USN Ssubmarine force removed pennant numbers and soon after, almost every other submarine force fell over themselves to lose their pennant numbers in a hurry. Which makes our particular little hobby very very difficult indeed!

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Arun_S » 24 Sep 2002 01:37

Originally posted by Shalav:
True but even then the max detection range will be 69-70 km from surface vessels - AFAIK the max height it attains is 150 m MSL before jettisoning its rocket boosters and descending to 15 m MSL.

I dont think the 150 m make much of a difference if the missile is going to be launched 100+ km from the target.

@ 15 m MSL the detection range is 36-40 km, at this point the missile will rise to 40 m MSL to achieve target lock. Let me correct myself the max detection range will be 36-40 km assuming 15 m MSL for the missile and 30 m for the radar mount.
To detect a Klub this theoretical analysis of just one aspect of detection that is Line Of Sight, is to be greatly moderated by the other limitation posed by Radar's transmitting power and more importantly the RCS(Radar Cross Section) of Klub comeing your way.

IMHO the best a radar of a ship being targeted can see is perhaps ~20 Km, OTOH an AEW(Airbourn Early Warning) located at a more promising angle may detect it ~60 Km. It is the same problem that fighter radar have to deal with against a small figher and smaller BVR missile flying in head-on.

The key to ANY missile defense is survillance and cueing. Aiming and interception weapons are important but secondary. Thus in modern times a feet is useless, unless it has an unbrella of AEW from landbased or shipbased assets.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Cybaru » 24 Sep 2002 01:40

Originally posted by maz:
Hi, this is Mazumdar. I cannot recall if I captioned the pix in the iFR article or not.
Just about everyone, including yours truly, is confused about the pennant number of the S'Shastra. Several pix have shown it as S65. The IFR book published by the IN lists it as S65. Logically it should have been S64. In the absence of any other official information, the most plausible explanation is that S64 is the "other" Amur for a foreign customer.
Either that or its a test bed and not active in IN service.

A few navies or airforces will follow the serial numbering procedure but if the tail/sail is working as a test bed for new technologies its not listed in the active duty roster.

Allright I have dropped this topic for good. Rakesh will send mail alter, found some more photos of S41 and misc stuff. Don't have links as I used a website mirroring tool to pillage all image files.
The price now is 3 samosas.

member_201
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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 24 Sep 2002 02:43

My goodness...you are the samosa dude? How you doing yo? First send me the samosas, then send me the pix.

On a more serious note, please listen to what the admin has said and let us not discuss about pennant numbers anymore. In the end of it all, S65 or S64, Mushy will still be wearing his brown pants ;)

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Cybaru » 24 Sep 2002 02:58

[quote]Originally posted by Rakesh Koshy:
My goodness...you are the samosa dude? How you doing yo? First send me the samosas, then send me the pix.

On a more serious note, please [b]listen
to what the admin has said and let us not discuss about pennant numbers anymore. In the end of it all, S65 or S64, Mushy will still be wearing his brown pants :)
The count was two before.. Its now at three. Gotta bump up some counter, the subs or the samosas.

Will send you the pix later, when I get home.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 24 Sep 2002 08:47

i guess lets end this discussion on S64 and S65 controversy since i am partially responsible for it :) .

Anyway finally here is some info on the new Fast patrol vessel IN's new reconassiance platform two have been launched so far notice the stealthy turrent hopin its not a medak.
http://www.goashipyard.co.in/html/pr_35knots-fast-patrol-vessel.htm

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 24 Sep 2002 17:45

cy_baru, that message was not directed just at you but to everyone in general.

john, that's a nice looking drawing. The Medak gun is a 30mm one. It could be that.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 24 Sep 2002 20:21

yeah it is kinda weird it had coast guard colors but it says it is for the navy from the design it seems to be modified version of the trinkat yeah the gun is most likely medak but in the picture it doesn't seem like that because medak is more rounded and bulkier.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 25 Sep 2002 10:56

Rakesh guess what i run into take a close look at the end of the first paragraph in this site
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo877/

:confused: you probably thinking of the same thing i thought which is that naval technology messed up again but the truth is they took it out a russian press realease a year and half back
http://www.avia.ru/english/articles/doc81.shtml
Its possible they messed up in classifying it.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 24 Dec 2002 18:12

Continuing the Scorpene & U212/U214 discussion in here;

ragupta: It would be nice in a perfect world if US offered India to build the U212/U214 for the Taiwanese Navy and then build some for ourselves. However there are some key concerns which need to be addressed. I list two of them here:

1) The US will likely do a 360º when it suits them and stop supplies of key systems, thus effectively rendering the platform useless. Prime Example: Sea Harrier and Sea King. In times of war, the IN cannot afford that! Especially now that the US owns HDW. Take a look at President George Bush's war on terrorism, which is a contradiction in every sense! He clearly says that anyone who harbours terrorists is themself guilty of the crime. But yet we have Pakistan being regarded as a frontline ally, despite being the breeding ground for terrorism. Here is the Leader of the Free World and the Leader of the World's Most Powerful Democracy sipping martinis and vodkas with a military dictator! A dictator who has clamped down on free speech, free press, sponsors terrorism on Pakistan's eastern border and then clamps down on terrorism on Pakistan's western border! America knows all this quite well, but yet is willing to sleep with Pakistan only because they need its help in capturing Al-Qaeda. And ultimately that is all that matters for the Americans - who can help them in their time of need, becomes their greatest friend.

2) Indian SY have a long way to go before in terms of delivering on time and delivering a quality product. The last two Type 209s in Indian Navy service were licensed built at Mazagon DY, Mumbai and took longer to build than the first two and even had welding problems after that! The first two were built in Germany. With this kind of a record in ship building, who will want us to build ships/subs for their Navy? We have had problems with Type 16 Godavaris, Type 16A Brahmaputras - welding problems primarily. To top that, hartals & goondaism are a common occurrence in Indian Shipyards. Then we have the all famous Bandh in Mumbai. Bal Thackerey is going to be arrested - Mumbai Bandh! Some dude of the Saffron Brigade got lynched and Nationwide Bandh!

All this goodwill post 9/11 is all going to wither away if the Democrats come to power in the next election - 2004. And with that will go all the bonhomie that India enjoys with the current administration. The Democrats don't support the Missile Defence concept as strongly as the Republicans do. Former Vice President Al Gore has gone on record stating that it is time we remove the present administration from power. The Democrats, and rightly so, don't see any benefit from either the war on terrorism or the war in the Gulf. If I ever get laid off from work, it will be because of the war against Iraq! Snipe Saddam Hussain by all means! That man needs to go. There is no doubt about that. But don't go to war with the entire damn nation!

You can bet your knickers that the French and Russians know all this quite well and thus have the bargaining chip with them when negotiating weapon deals with India. They are in it for the money and we would do the same thing if we were in their position. So let's not focus about how the Russians/French are taking us to the cleaners, but rather how we can get the best bang for the buck. Focus on building & progressively updating the Scorpene, get additional Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s, see if we can get our hands (and tech transfer) on the Aster 15/30 SAMs, have Dassault assist ADA/HAL in the LCA, build an ADS with French help (to decrease construction time), the list is endless. MoD Babus have to learn how to negotiate and negotiate hard.

The Russians, OTOH, have to informed that we cannot go in for the Gorshkov or the 1000 T-90s. We have to look out for our own interests and not try to please arms dealers and manufacturers.

ragupta
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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby ragupta » 24 Dec 2002 19:48

RK:

Agree with the presented facts.

All the Concerns are valid, but we do not have the luxury of making decisions based on past baggages. It is in our interest to move on, and not close our eyes to opportunity and prospects.

That is why I did not suggest getting U21X to replace or instead of Scorpene. I look at U21X as a prospect and scorpene as a security. Just because we burnt our finger does not mean we become phobic to it. The need is to learn, be cautious and beat them at their own game.

Coming back to U21X. We already have some infrastructure at mazagoan dock, It will get utilized. Make it a deal where you get the finance and tech both from US, Payment contingent upon completion of project. With the low Rate and banks burdened with too much of liquidity it should not be a problem. Involve as many US corporation as possible to make our bidding, so it does not effect due to change in administration. TSP rating does not change with change in administrator. Is there something we need to learn from them.

In the past we have been stupid not to learn anything from the license production, and we remained happy with the screwdriver tech. In all future project, it is time to involve an element of force which can reverse engineer the damn thing if need be. This is a must in all future dealing.

About the labour force, with a decade of liberalization and privatization, the feeling is sinking into the labour force, that the action of the past will not be tolerated any longer. They need to be productive. This was not the only problem, we lacked a sense of urgency and Management skill. I am confident that there is improvement in both this area. Some of this project must be jointly handled between private and public interested parties. There is a need to encourage them, not discard them. In that way they will become more of a burden to the society.

Whatever US is doing may have negative impacts on all of us, but that does not mean that we stop dealing with them, they are arrogant because they can afford to do so. While I am not in for supporting them blindly on everything, we need to carefully plan what is beneficial to us and should not miss out on the opportunity. Our interest first and foremost.

The time when sea king and sea harrier parts were blocked has long passed, and we should also move away and drop that baggage it is in our interest. And there is no guarantee that the current reliable partners may not take us for a ride, if we keep looking and relying on a narrow set of countries. There is a chance to engage US and get the technology which we need, rather than shy away from it due to past experience. That experience only teaches us to be careful and we must be.

Everyone is in for Money, that is one primary interest, if US thinks they can do a 360 degree turn, they will have to bear the cost of it. Even US cannot continue to have the luxury of doing 360 degree turn anymore. Look at the geopolitical situation and you will know that their options are shrinking, and we should not miss out on the opportunity.

India has not given R&D the right attention, due to other more pressing priorities in the past. Now we have realised, and can spare resources and are ready for it. Therefore it is time to not miss out project which can provide us a jumpstart and catch up on technology. We need to focus on learning along with licensing and involve multiple players in it. This is the only method we can acquire technology and fill the gap in our experience.

India will have to pay the price, even if we have to do it ourselves, there is no time to go through the whole learning curve on our own and make the same mistake. We can very well afford it to pay for the experience and build on it.

Lets use the past experience for being cautious, and not to miss the opportunity by carrying that baggage.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Kakkaji » 24 Dec 2002 21:44

Originally posted by Rakesh Koshy:
To top that, hartals & goondaism are a common occurrence in Indian Shipyards. Then we have the all famous Bandh in Mumbai. Bal Thackerey is going to be arrested - Mumbai Bandh! Some dude of the Saffron Brigade got lynched and Nationwide Bandh!
Rakesh,

Why single out the Mazgaon Dock, Mumbai, and the Saffron Brigade for the shipyard problems? The Garden Reach Shipyard in Kolkata is much worse due the more frequent Bandhs, Goondaism, and ANTI-NATIONALISM of the Red brigade and the Madarsa-Wallahs, both of whom dominate the Kolkata Docks area?

And I am sure the performance of the Cochin Shipyards in the land of Leftist Trade Unionism is not much better.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby JTull » 21 May 2003 04:07

Ah, my favorite thread!

Rakesh, thanks for resuscitating this thread.

Fernandes to spend a night in submarine


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