Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 13 Aug 2002 17:41

Hey Shalav man, speak in Hinglish. Enough with that Math mumbo jumbo. You have impressed us all!

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Shalav » 13 Aug 2002 22:08

John,

If a PN vessel is being probed by any radar it will know. Does not matter if it can see the emitter, it will know.

The brahmos or the klub or any other AShM for that matter will use the same general priciple for target acquisition, launch and hit.

-o- The onboard comp will have to be loaded with the targets co-ordinates before launch.
-o- it will then launch and vector using INS or other methods towards the targets co-ordinates in its memory. Perhaps it may use a predicted target path to modify its course while in cruise mode.
-o- some km from the target it will use its active seekers to lock onto the target.
-o- the course will be corrected in order to intercept the changed and predicted target position, and enter its terminal mode.

The exocet does it, the harpoon does it, the klub does it and the brahmos will also do the same thing. The advantage of the brahmos is its speed. With ranges of 200+ km any missile has to have a decent BTH targetting apparatus, and I dont see it changing from the ka-31/bears/mays for the IN in the near future.

Rakesh,

And here I was fretting no one was impressed! Now I can stop! :D

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 13 Aug 2002 22:27

If a PN vessel is being probed by any radar it will know. Does not matter if it can see the emitter, it will know.
actually PN has very little ESM capability, the amazon FFG doesn't have a ESM also the ones in leander frigate are very old and antqiue doubt they are even operational.

the brahmos will also do the same thing. The advantage of the brahmos is its speed
nope, I remember what a russian naval expert once said back in 97, yakhont is a mini version of shipwreck in other words it uses the same feared onboard guidance system. The thing that made USN fear SS-N-19 is not its speed or range is that it required very little BHT. The reason russians disliked moksit was the missile onboard computer is no better than one in Styx-C and missile required KA-27 in order to provide targeting. The thing about shipwreck is that it can once it reaches like 50 to 100 km from the location of a enemy fleet it then picks out which ship to attack, appropiate way to attack it. The only targeting you need to provide the missile is the rough coordination of enemy fleet and with a inaccuracy of upto 20 km. Russians had problems incoporating the powerful onboard capabilities of Shipwreck into yakhont that is were DRDO comes in.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby harishn » 13 Aug 2002 22:44

I debated long over making the last post , and also decided not to give the link which gives details of damage and how the pattern clearly shows the use of CM and military explosives , as it might harm Hindu - Jewish relations.They give reasons for suspecting the Popeye Turbo.Its a bit too convincing.At least a lot will be taken in.By not giving the link I have proved ...i am not one of them.
U not giving the link proves nothing except for muddling an irrelevant issue. The hindu jewish relationship u mention, is it suppose to represent Indian-Israeli relationship? Besides how can hindu-jewish relationship which is purely a religious relationship be affected by some terrorist act in middle east which had nothing to do with religion?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Rudra » 13 Aug 2002 22:57

the KA31 radar can it detect and provide rough
co-ordinates for surface targets ? these and Bear,
May will have to suffice for the initial fix.

interesting that IN hasnt really purchased any
new / refurbished LRMP a/c in well over a decade
but Coast Guard is having an air fleet much bigger
than PN ...and laying in Dorniers like no tomorrow. Do these have a role ?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Shalav » 13 Aug 2002 23:12

the amazon FFG doesn't have a ESM
I think the PN has Thomson ESM kits on their Amazons. Not sure if all 6 Type 21s are equipped with it or only part of the fleet. Considering the lafayettes carry a similar kit, I would assume them to be quite capable of detecting radar emissions from the ka-31s. While the Leanders may not have a good ESM, it does not mean they are useless, unless one is actively jamming them.

The thing about shipwreck is that it can once it reaches like 50 to 100 km from the location of a enemy fleet it then picks out which ship to attack, appropiate way to attack it. The only targeting you need to provide the missile is the rough coordination of enemy fleet and with a inaccuracy of upto 20 km
What you describe as a unique property of the shipwreck or the brahmos is pretty much prevalent in all modern AShMs. Read my earlier post and point out a modern AShM which DOES NOT do this. Certainly the exocet, the harpoon and the klub too need not have exact target co-ords. By definition one cannot provide exact co-ords for AShMs, since their targets are moving, and by the time thery reach the co-ords the targets will almost certainly be elsewhere. Therefore you will find the exocets, the klubs, the harpoons, the shipwrecks and the brahmos, after launch and before beginning their terminal run, will actively seek and lock on to a target. Nothing unique to the shipwrecks. What these missiles do is to lock on to the largest return they can find, and steer towars this. So if one launches a salvo, one would find most missiles would lock onto the largets warship in the area.

Russians had problems incoporating the powerful onboard capabilities of Shipwreck into yakhont that is were DRDO comes in
Are you saying the russians had the knowhow and the ability to do something in the shipwreck, which they COULD NOT REPLICATE in another missile? Seems a bit far-fetched to me.

PS: Still looking for data confirming the terminal velocity of the klub as 2M. Since you claim this is so, please let us have your source.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby tingudu » 13 Aug 2002 23:37

Hi,
Dont the PN Amazons have the DR 3000 ESM kit from Thomson CSF...? They are good thingies.
As seen in the Tanker war, even an ok ESM set will do.

Regards,

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Rudra » 14 Aug 2002 00:21

in the acig forums naval section someone ran a
harpoon-2 simulation of IN -vs- PN. IN had viraat
with sea harriers and Ka-31, plus some delhis..
...the net result was that IN was always able to
detect the PN much before using the helos, then
launch a alpha strike with sea-eagle armed
harriers 6 in number (and Uran's ofcourse). though some missiles missed or ciws took them out, PN ships
were sunk or badly mauled. launch was from 25km with harriers immediately banking away. PN never got a ASM off as they never came within radar range. PN Orion was taken down quickly by a harrier.

this was done with no help from maritime Jags or
land based bombers which have been known to help
IN out during exercises.

No indian subs were used, nor PN subs. the same
type of barrage could easily be launched by IN
sub unloading six tubes worth of klubs then
running away.

IN's major threat is a PN sub using passive sonar
detects at say 40km, launches exocets and moves
away. its too far for sea kings to locate easily
and can sprint at 15 knots submerged until clear
of danger. then all the worry is on IN to dodge or
shoot the exocets.

ASW helos and Bears will have to create a wall
around IN SAGs with sonobuoys and dunking sonar.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 14 Aug 2002 01:10

PS: Still looking for data confirming the terminal velocity of the klub as 2M. Since you claim this is so, please let us have your source.
I assume you haven't read what rakesh had post, The 3M-54 missile terminal velocity is about mach 2.9 to be exact (but some russian sources say it mach 2 to 2.5 so i assume they are using a different speed of sound). Klub is not missile instead it is family of missiles.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Klub.html

Nothing unique to the shipwrecks. What these missiles do is to lock on to the largest return they can find, and steer towars this. So if one launches a salvo, one would find most missiles would lock onto the largets warship in the area
that is exactly what i am saying missiles, harpoon and klub lock onto the largest ship and often the missiles are wasted on vessels that already been damaged or of low priority. But when shipwreck and brahmos are launched on salvos they categroise what vessel to attack and this allows the use of one missile per one vessel strategy.
By flying hi brahmos can get accurate picture of the entire enemy fleet. Also I won't reveal the exact range brahmos turns on its passive seeker but lets put it this way it turns it on way before its terminal flight.

Are you saying the russians had the knowhow and the ability to do something in the shipwreck, which they COULD NOT REPLICATE in another missile? Seems a bit far-fetched to me.
All i know is that with DRDO assistance NPO has speeded up the Yakhont project by 5 years i doubt it is because IN is funding the missile because russia also contrubuted the 140 million of the 280 million. Russia navy is also satisfied with Brahmos progress and is placed order for 200 missiles and has already laid 3 vessels that will carry it.

cannot provide exact co-ords for AShMs, since their targets are moving, and by the time thery reach the co-ords the targets will almost certainly be elsewhere.
To attack lets say an enemy AAW Destroyer if you just provide the rough target coord of were the enemy fleet was to a shipwreck missile and put the AAW Destroyer's signature on top priority the missile will seek out and destroy that particular vessel if it can find it that is something no missile can do.

PN Amazons have the DR 3000 ESM kit
I don't know whether it has been fitted in or not either...

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Rudra » 14 Aug 2002 01:39

does brahmos have a datalink capacity to tell
low-flying cousins of the radar picture ?
this is what makes the Oscar ssgns such a awesome
platform. they fire a salvo and only one climbs
high to tell other where targets are. if the
high flyer is shot, another /rises to the occasion/! they also allocate targets among the
pack with more aimed at bigger ships.

would be great if we could have a single unified
machinery for brahmos, klubs and urans to get
midcourse updates and also relay radar images back
to cousins and airborne platforms/ships.

this would allow lesser platforms to seamlessly
contribute missiles into the general pool without
themselves doing anything beyond a launch platform. A sub could fire and submerge asap, a
FAC could run away at high speed....

same for SAMs if we can get a desi-AEGIS onto
the larger ships.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Philip » 14 Aug 2002 10:48

Former USN studies suggested that any Soviet warship below 3,000t would be incapacitated by a single anti-ship missile and it would take about three missiles to knock out a Kashin class destroyer.These related to subsonic missiles.The kinetic power of supersonic anti-ship missiles indicate that just one would be sufficient to cripple any warship below 8,000t.The recent running aground on a rock of an RN destroyer of 4000t+ almost sunk it.So did the attack on the Cole.Surface vessels are very vulnerable to hits around the waterline.Most anti-ship missiles have their terminal run at around sea level.A lot depends upon the design of the warship with respect to hull damage and redundancy of systems,with parallel/back up damage control and warfighting capabilities.US warships are perhaps the best equippped for survival after attack.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 14 Aug 2002 13:14

Hi,

harpoon and klub lock onto the largest ship and often the missiles are wasted on vessels that already been damaged or of low priority

John, That might be true if missiles were fired one behind the other like a convoy and warships stick close to each other like a gaggle of geese. The fact is that modern naval task forces are very well spread out (over hundreds to thousands of square kilometers). Missiles in a salvo are not fired all at the same bearing - but in slighty different directions to maximize area coverage. Once the missiles reach the suspected target area, they follow preprogrammed search patterns - and the search path of each missile is slightly different, with different directional bias etc programmed before flight. All this makes it unlikely that a given warship will be targetted by a multiple weapons while some others escape unscathed.

Even if the targeted ships were fairly close together - as in a convoy escort operation in littoral waters; the attacking missiles have a prelaunch bias programmed into them. Some of the missiles will be programmed to give priority to ships in the center of the target area, some to ships on the left and others to the right. Modern weapons like the latest Harpoons can skip the first set of ships encountered (the picket screen) and hit the next (what the picket screen is defending) - and reattack if they miss them. In addition missiles are also able to prioritise target vessels based on their signatures (radar/IR/ESM). I think you are quite misinformed if you think that modern AShM's like Klub or Harpoon will all make a beeline for the largest target.

The real difference between Harpoon class AShM and the Granit is that while Harpoons handle target distribution amongst themselves independently and autonoumously, the Granit flock behaviour and target assignment depends of active communication between the missiles by datalinks. Each of these approaches have their obvious advantages and disadvantages.

The really interesting behaviour of Granit is the automatic assignment of one of the missiles in the salvo as an recon unit and real time sharing of any targetting data that "recon" missile might garner. If this highly visible unit is intercepted (as it most probably would), another missile from the flock is automatically designated as the new recon missile. For all their utility this approach too has its very obvious disadvantage - and a fleet with a good alternative means of target location will want to eschew this tactic of a highly visible incoming stike.

Also I won't reveal the exact range brahmos turns on its passive seeker but lets put it this way it turns it on way before its terminal flight

John, are you suggesting that you are in possssion of classified information about the exact nature and range of PRH capability of the Brahmos? :roll:

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Harry Van » 14 Aug 2002 14:06

Originally posted by John:

All i know is that with DRDO assistance NPO has speeded up the Yakhont project by 5 years i doubt it is because IN is funding the missile because russia also contrubuted the 140 million of the 280 million. Russia navy is also satisfied with Brahmos progress and is placed order for 200 missiles and has already laid 3 vessels that will carry it.

So you mean to say that Brahmos is not the first Indo-Russian JV.Then why was it not advertised ?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Harry Van » 14 Aug 2002 14:13

Originally posted by Badar:

Each of these approaches have their obvious advantages and disadvantages.

Can you tell us what the obvious advantages and disadvantages are ?

Are you saying the russians had the knowhow and the ability to do something in the shipwreck, which they COULD NOT REPLICATE in another missile? Seems a bit far-fetched to me.

The Granit is a very large missile.Yakhont is smaller.May be there was a problem with miniaturisation.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 14 Aug 2002 18:50

Badar i think you are overestimating capabilities of Harpoon than it is. First of all Harpoon doesn't turn on its active seeker only few km before it arrive at its target. It then homes on to the closest target (not always though). I have never read any thing that suggested the latest harpoon can be assigned with priorities with target to attack links? :confused: Even lets say they can do it how can it possible be effective when the seeker is turned on its terminal flight.
Each of these approaches have their obvious advantages and disadvantages.
I think you are missing the point here that thing about SS-N-19 is that it is immune to jamming and can prioritise ALL enemy vessels located around the enemy based fleet based on their position, RCS and Electro magentic emmison because of its dual mode seeker well before it engages its terminal flight.

Granit is the automatic assignment of one of the missiles in the salvo as an recon unit
Well that is not something just ss-n-19 can do most russian SSM can do that like the moskit for example.

So you mean to say that Brahmos is not the first Indo-Russian JV.Then why was it not advertised ?
Brahmos = Yakhont.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby geeth » 14 Aug 2002 19:17

>>>Brahmos = Yakhont

Apart from the looks, I would like to know more about the similarities between these two missiles.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Rudra » 14 Aug 2002 19:25

the next logical step should be to fund a
JV to develop a next-gen modular VLS for
future IN and RuN vessels. This should be
a mid-sized unit (not the Sa-n-6 sized!)
capable of say 24 tubes. adapters should
be developed to take yakhont, klub, sa-n-7,
barak(quad pack?) etc.

technology developed for prev RuN vls can
be leveraged. their automated reload systems
compare well with the manual one of americans.

it will be a very valuable investment. smaller
ships can just use one, bigger P15A types two
and the INS Ranjit Singh LACM cruiser could
have a small stealthy superstructure and mount
4 for 96 brahmos!

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Vick » 14 Aug 2002 19:35

96 Brahmos?!? Someone is thinking of putting some serious boot to a$$ :)

Realistically, that is waaaay too many missiles in the Indian context. Say each missile costs $2 million and the boat becomes very expensive.

A more realistic number is 48 but I doubt that will even be the case. Most likely, if the Bangalores have the Brahmos, they will carry 16-32 of them. Which is fine, the IN would rather have 6 Bangalores with 16-32 missiles each than 3 ships with 96 Brahmos each. BTW, does anyone know how many P15As the IN intends to make?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Vick » 14 Aug 2002 22:55

And, philip, the Cole was never in danger of sinking.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Rudra » 14 Aug 2002 23:21

Vick, its important to have a high number of
adaptable VLS cells, even if most are empty
during peacetime. Mk41 vls has adapters for
many missiles. brahmos too costly ? fine. keep
16 and load 32x Urans next. or convert it
into a SAM ship with 2xsa-n-17s per tube with
60 tubes loaded (120 SAMs).

I would say such a VLS and advanced 3D phased
array radar + combat info system to tackle upto
500 objects within 800km radius should be priority
for IN.

imo 3 P15As were sanctioned but no public details
on design and where/when/if work to start. Does
mazgaon have space to make P17s in parallel ?
where is mazgaon anyway..near the IN dock in
mumbai ?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Vick » 14 Aug 2002 23:57

120 SAMs and/or 32 Urans are still expensive. Probably ~$110 million. I doubt the IN will be willing to put up that much cash for just one ship's armament.

The reason why the US ships carry so many missiles is because they fight their wars far far away where resupplying could mean sailing back 2000 miles. In the Indian context, most of the IN fights will be 'near' the peninsula and might alleviate the need to have psuedo-arsenal ships. Also, the IN doesn't plan on fighting month(s) long wars. The wars will be quick and therefore might not nesscitate huge loadouts. I will be surprised if a Delhi will be able to fire off all its Urans and then return and rearm and be out again in a two-three week war.

Also, another aspect that makes high loadouts unnecessary, IMO, is the lack of targets after the first week. Most of the PN surface fleet will be subsurface and the shore installations are better attacked by aircraft carrying four $50,000 bombs with a 500lb whd each rather than a ~$2 million missile with a ~300lb warhead. There will be some shore bombarbment with AShM but that would be a less cost effective method.

Added later:

But I am in complete agreement with you regarding AAW capability. That is where the IN must increase capability in order to be able to do ops further from the penninsula.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Guest » 15 Aug 2002 00:18

A word of caution as we are progressing to deep into the Brahmos capabilities.

George J

Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby George J » 15 Aug 2002 00:27

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
where is mazgaon anyway..near the IN dock in
mumbai ?
<a href="http://www.aboutmumbai.com/zone_5.asp">Here</a>

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby JTull » 02 Sep 2002 20:53

It is nice to note that the submarine page on BR has already been updated with latest news on 'INS Sindhughosh'.

Is there any way to know how many and which Kilo class submarines with IN have the capability to fire Klub-S.

We know that INS Sindhushastra was used to fire during recent tests. And we also know INS Sindhuraj, INS Sindhuvir, INS Sindhuratna have completed upgrades (don't know if all included refitting with Klub-S) and are back with IN. INS Sindhukesari is expected to arrive by year end.

Does it suffice to say we have 4 submarines which can fire Klub-S. Also 2 are undergoing upgrades which would include Klub-S?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 03 Sep 2002 03:42

It is nice to note that the submarine page on BR has already been updated with latest news on 'INS Sindhughosh'

Yeah, I saw the news article on The Hindu and I immediately updated that page.

Well it can be assumed but not confirmed that all Kilos which undergo upgrades at Russia are Klub-capable. As of now, Sindhuraj S57, Sindhuvir S58, Sindhuratna S59 and Sindhukesari S60 have had their refits completed. Plus the last Kilo - Sindhushastra S64 - was delivered to the IN with Klub capability. That is a total of five Klub-capable Kilos. What I want to know is whether Sindhurakshak S63 - the ninth Kilo sub - has Klub capability.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby JTull » 21 Sep 2002 05:38

http://www.defenceindia.com/16-sep-2k2/navy2.html
This link may not be around for long so here's the full text:

Indian submarine completes refit in Russia

Indian Navy's oldest Kilo class submarine "Sindhuratna" is today sailing back for home after deep refit at a Russian shipyard on the White Sea.

This is the second submarine to be upgraded at the "Zvyozdochka" submarine repairs shipyard in Severodvinsk on the White Sea Coast, RosBalt news agency reported.

In the course of its modernisation INS "Sindhuratna" has been fitted with new sonars and Klub-S cruise missiles capable of destroying enemy ships, submarines and coastal targets within a range of 220 kilometres.

As "Sindhuratna" sails for home, another Kilo class submarine "Sindhughosh" has been docked at Zvyozdochka shipyard for a similar refit.

First Indian Kilo class submarine of project 877EKM "Sindhuvir" was refitted with Klub-S cruise missiles during its two-year-long modernisation at Severodvinsk in 1998.

Two other Indian Naval submarines were also refitted at Admiralty Shipyards in St Petersburg.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 21 Sep 2002 07:47

wonderin shouldn't Sindhushastra be classified as S-65? then wonder why they skipped S-64 and went over to S-65?
http://submarine.id.ru/galery/t502.shtml

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 22 Sep 2002 01:15

Wow, that is a surprise. I have it listed as S64. I will have to change that. There can be nothing more authentic than that picture! :)

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Cybaru » 22 Sep 2002 05:52

What happened to S64 then??

INS SindhuAtomic S64 ?? (SindhuShakti )

So do we have 11 kilo's or is the counter still at 10 ??

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 22 Sep 2002 06:22

No the number is still at ten. The IN is weird like this when it comes to assigning serial nos.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 22 Sep 2002 06:32

could be there is another SSK out there under construction we are not aware of which will be designated as S64. The reason how i managed to find out it was classified as S-65 is because i checking out global security.org site it had sub classified as S-65 then i checked hazegray it had Sindhuhastra classified as S-65 did a little on russian search engines and managed to find picture of it confirming it as S-65.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Cybaru » 22 Sep 2002 07:08

Funny, globalsecurity site says date of commisson as being 19th july 2000.

Sindhushastra S 64 Vishakapatnam SY 112 19 Jul 2000

And there definitely is a "S64". Mazumdar seems to be a witness to this. Here goes from our very own BR monitor.

"The French nuclear submarine, the FNS Perle, was the highlist of the show. Here she is entering harbor (top left). To her port side is the French destroyer FNS Dupleix. Singapore's RSS Endurance is astern of the Dupleix. The Kursura class submarine Kraranj S21 (top right). Notice that unlike other vessels of her class, S21 has three sonar domes. This is because she is is used a trials platform for the ATV 's command systems including the 'Pachendriya' and 'Rani' radar equipment. Sindushastra S64 next to the tug Balram (bottom right). Shalki was the first Indian built Type 209/1500 SSK (bottom left)."
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-5/mazumdar.html

Is this one of ours ??
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/fleet/russian/submarine/pl877-13.jpg

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Francissi » 22 Sep 2002 13:45

RAKESH

My French "Flottes de combat 2002" also omits S64. S65 is SINDHUSHASTRA commissioned on 19/07/00.

Sometime ago I think you asked for ancient Indian Navy books. I have my "Flottes de combat" year 1939/40. It has the Royal Indian Navy on one page (4 ships). If it is of any interest to you please let me know, I can fax you the page. I laso have "Bombay Buccaneers", memoiers and reminiscences collected and edited by Commander D.J. Hastings RINVR.

Best regards.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Shirish » 22 Sep 2002 18:58

Guruji, Mazagon is an area of the city, close to Colaba and not veryfar from Naval Dockyard.Although a lot of navy work is done there, it is not a navy facility.You can buy damn good fish at Mazagon docks, but to buy a boat u must go to mazagon dockyard :)

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Guest » 22 Sep 2002 19:10

Leave the
serial numbers alone.

No more analyzing on that

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Vick » 23 Sep 2002 23:26

Why is the serial number quirk taboo?

member_201
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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 23 Sep 2002 23:29

Vick, because the administrator said so. I would take his word seriously.

There is a reason why the IN took off the pennant numbers of all its submarines. So that nosey people like us would not indentify them.

Rear Admiral J.S. Bedi, "....the navies of the world do not talk about their submarines." Therefore my fellow BRites, the less said the better.

Franncissi, please email me at koshyr2000@yahoo.com

Vick
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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Vick » 23 Sep 2002 23:34

Quote: "There is a reason why the IN took off the pennant numbers of all its submarines."

If that is the case, then what was the CNS doing allowing a photo-op to be taken with the sub's number and name clearly in the same frame? And then allowing the photo to be put on the web?

Case of letting the OPSEC guard down?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 23 Sep 2002 23:40

Vick,

1) The IN did not take that photo.

2) This policy of removing pennant numbers of the submarines came sometime in mid-2000 (post July 2000) AFAIK. So Sindhushastra lucked out :)

It is physically impossible for the IN to go and edit each picture of its submarines. Also for the Pukes or any other enemy to have a picture of INS Sindhugosh S55 is not going to make the submarine any more vulnerable in war. Serial numbers have been taken off, so the vessel can never be identified from now on.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Vick » 23 Sep 2002 23:47

My bad, I thought the pic was taken 'recently.' Consider the topic dropped.


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