Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 25 Jul 2002 09:28

Hi,

I think some of us here might be underestimating the defensive effectiveness of a well handled fast ship with generous quantities of chaff. A ship without quick reaction SAMs and powerful jammers is not exactly defenseless.

the velocity of the supersonic ashm is so high that even if they are ripped apart at 300 to 400 meters the debris can still hit their target

So CIWS are not a defensive system per se, but more a kind of a damage control system? i.e. they ensure that instead of a ship getting hit by a solid missile, it instead gets pelted with with fragments? :)

I suspect possible armament should be three*8 cell yakhont launchers

The reasons for your suspicion that P-15A will carry three sets of 8-cell VL Yakhonts being?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 25 Jul 2002 13:10

It really isnt correct to compare western "large" caliber CIWS to russian systems, as the russians only seem to use ordinary ammunition for their guns. In the west it is becoming more and more popular to use special kinds of ammunition, like AHEAD and 3P, which are specifically designed to handle "small" high speed targets like supersonic AShM.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 25 Jul 2002 14:31

Hi,

nandai,AFAIK there are no plans to equip Phalanx or Goalkeeper with AHEAD/3P type of ammunition. I guess that with a superior fire control system one tries for a direct hit that can destroy a missile. If your fire control is not quite upto the task then I assume you might get better results with 3P/AHEAD type of ammo and hope that you atleast disable the missile sensor.

The primary difference between Goalkeeper/Phalanx and systems like AK-630 is that while the former are true closed loop system, the latter is merely radar directed artillery.

South Africa was offering a close loop system for Oerlikon's 35mm Millenium for use with AHEAD ammo. But I dont know how it panned out or if it ever got customers.

BTW, the best CIWS extant (IMHO) is the Kashtan complex.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 25 Jul 2002 17:27

Well, as far I know Phalanx cant use any kind of AHEAD type ammo, since the 20mm shell is simply too small for that kind of ammunition.
There are other western systems that could probably make mincemeat out of any sort of AShM, like my favourite Myriad. I dont give much to the Italian approach how to defend your ships against incoming AShMs, by using 76/62 Super Radid guns with special kinds of ammo. I think the rate of fire is just to slow.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 25 Jul 2002 17:33

Badar, the new South African corvettes/light frigates will be armed with a indigenous double 35mm gun, that are AHEAD capable, could these be the guns you are talking about.

LIW 35mm DPG

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 25 Jul 2002 20:21

whether a CIWS gun system can even get off a shot against missile depends on lot on circumstance, gun placement and AEW capability. If u recall the russian AK-630 uses a director radar so that is one reasons why it doesn't have a closed loop system, kashtan combat module however has its own radar and can do its own targeting I beleive it is closed loop system.
The reasons for your suspicion that P-15A will carry three sets of 8-cell VL Yakhonts being?
I believe there is room for 2to3 sets of 8 cell launchers on current P15 design also i saw a picture of russian naval vessel that is being designed carrying 24 yakhont SSM considerating the cooperation between Russian design beaurea and IN the same layout could be used for P15A. If IN decides to go for horizontal launchers 8 to 12 can be fitted in place of 16 uran's.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby tingudu » 25 Jul 2002 20:47

Hi Badar,
As regards to the effectiveness of CIWS even high calibre ones like the AK 630, to stop a missile. IMHO it iwould be wrone to underestimate their capability, but even worse to overestimate them. Even if we assume an AK 630 can take out a Harpoon/Exocet at low level doing terminal dances and the ship itself moving, the fragments coming in might not damage the ship gravely but could do damage to vital systems like RADAR antennae, even if not damage /destruction, even a change of angle will be enough.

The best systems would be the RAM Goalkeeper combine and the Kashtan.

Regards,

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 26 Jul 2002 00:22

Hi,

I dont give much to the Italian approach how to defend your ships against incoming AShMs, by using 76/62 Super Radid guns with special kinds of ammo. I think the rate of fire is just to slow

nandai, Yes, the rate of fire is comparatively slower, but their doctrine makes up for it with quite a large battery of guns. Also even a single near miss airburst from a 76mm shell is enough to destroy all but the largest missiles - you would need a larger number of 20/30/35mm hits to achieve the same results. I guess its a choice between more of less and less of more :)

If u recall the russian AK-630 uses a director radar so that is one reasons why it doesn't have a closed loop system

john, Sorry I didn't get what you are trying to say here. The only reason the AK-630 is not a closed loop system is because the MR-123 cannot track and correlate both the incoming and the outgoing rounds.

kashtan combat module however has its own radar and can do its own targeting I beleive it is closed loop system

Kashtan does have its own radar, it does do its own targetting. But the it is not a closed loop system.

i saw a picture of russian naval vessel that is being designed carrying 24 yakhont SSM

Are you sure that ship was of the same displacement class as the Delhi? 24 Yakhonts, that too deck penetrating VL ones, is a humongous load for a ship of 6-7000 tons.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Roop » 26 Jul 2002 03:00

Originally posted by Badar:
...but their doctrine makes up for it with quite a large battery of guns.
Not true. Most NATO vessels deploying the OTO-Melara 76/62 use a single gun turret (fore). Some of the larger ships may deploy a second turret aft, although I can't think of an example offhand. So it's generally just a single gun firing at the inbound missile. Maybe two guns, if there is an aft turret available. You have a point about the proximity-airburst kill, but if it were my skin on that ship, I'd trust a Phalanx before I'd trust a 76mm gun. OTOH, if both weapons are available, nothing prevents you from using both at the same time. Perhaps this is what you meant by the "large battery" remark?

john, Sorry I didn't get what you are trying to say here...Kashtan does have its own radar, it does do its own targetting. But the it is not a closed loop system.
I too am confused by what John is trying to say here. AFAIK all of these Russian CIWS systems are open-loop designs. Of course, it is a separate question as to how reliable the closed-loop design of the Phalanx is. Is it as good as advertised? Don't know!

24 Yakhonts, that too deck penetrating VL ones, is a humongous load for a ship of 6-7000 tons.
Don't know how the Yakhont compares sizewise to the Standard Missile, but here are some interesting figures -- a certain NATO country deploys 39 SM2 Block III missiles in a single VLS-Mk41 magazine, on a ship of roughly 4000 tons displacement. BTW, these figures are all in the public domain, so I am not giving out any secrets.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 26 Jul 2002 09:00

:) well that what i said, the director radar for AK-630 is MR-123 which is not capable of tracking rounds.

Kashtan is supposed to be a closed loop system is it not? i thought Hot flash is capable of tracking outgoing rounds do you have any source that suggest other wise?.

Yakhont is only one meter longer than Klub and weights about a ton more if u recall 8 Klubs can be fitted into krivak frigate. The russian are proposing 24 yakhont armament for a 7,000 ton destroyer (probably similar in size to udaloy) and also for a 2,000 corvette. Destroyer will also carry Rif-Mad SAM system while corvette will carry kashtan SAM system. But these are proposed designs and the destroyer is planned for completion only by 2015.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 26 Jul 2002 10:41

Hi,

Not true. Most NATO vessels deploying the OTO-Melara 76/62 use a single gun turret

Raju, we were talking about the Italian naval air defense doctrine - not NATO per se. Italian Horizon class frigates call for 3 76mm (In contrast to French vessels of this class that would carry only two 76mm). The Luigi Penne class carries a 127mm plus 3 76mm. The older Audace class packs a 127mm in addition to four(!) 76mm. Ref <a href="http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/europe/italy.htm#2">HazeGray</a>.

I'd trust a Phalanx before I'd trust a 76mm gun

And the Eyties see fit to put their faith in the 76mm {shrug}. Note that they had access to both indigenous (OTO Breda) and foreign (Goalkeeper/Phalanx) CWIS but they choose to go with a DP 76mm gun battery. I think in terms of weight of fire, a super rapide is superior to 20/30mm - plus it can put effective fire to longer distances for longer engagement duration.

Is it as good as advertised? Don't know!

I remember seeing a video of a Phalanx sucessfully downing a Silkworm in the IPGW.

Kashtan is supposed to be a closed loop system is it not? i thought Hot flash is capable of tracking outgoing rounds do you have any source that suggest other wise?

Kashtan is composed to two integrated but seperate parts - a quick reaction missile system and gatling guns. The missile system, like most laser guided missiles, is a close looped system (the fire control keep track of both the missile and target). The gun part is a straight forward adaptation of the AK-630 (using a drum fed system instead of the older belts) and is not a close looped system. There is tons of information on the AK-630 series on the net.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Roop » 26 Jul 2002 11:33

BTW, I made a typo mistake in my post above. The ship that I said carries 39 SM2 missiles in the VLS actually carries 29 missiles. Sorry.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 26 Jul 2002 13:00

Mohan, those ships you are talking about, the canadian Iroquis ships weighs almost 5000 tons when fully loaded, not 4000 tons.

Badar, wouldnt you rather have 2 Myriad CIWS instead of 2 extra 76mm guns, sure the 76mm round packs a larger punch than the 25mm, but I would certainly rather be on a ship armed with guns capable of spewing 10000 rpm of FAPDS shells, then guns firing 120 rpm, although bigger shells.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 26 Jul 2002 13:37

Hi,

Nandai, If I were in the unfortunate position of being on a ship that was being shot at I would prefer the ship pack the Kashtan system - a Kortik double tap followed by 20,000 rpm.

I was just suggesting that there are some advantages to a 76mm as there are others to a 20mm system - for atleast one major navy that had a choice, the benefits of a 76mm system seem to outweigh those of the 25mm variety.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Harry Van » 26 Jul 2002 14:33

Can anyone explain whats is this RAM and how it works please ??

I think the issue is about whether it is a self-contained independant system or uses the main radars.As all these radar guided artillery systems must be closed - loop systems . Right ?
It dose check to see whther the target is destroyed and the stops firing after wards.

Yes , I just found this.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/aj.cashmore/.weapons/russia/.ciws.html

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby member_201 » 26 Jul 2002 16:03

Originally posted by Badar:
Rakesh, Would 4, 6 or even 8 Klubs make a difference to the sui gas plant?
Badar, stop being a party pooper and ruin the fun for us Klub fans :)

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Austin » 26 Jul 2002 17:21

Supersonic vs Subsonic
Sice the debete is geting a bit out of context , Let me start an interesing debate on Supersonic vs Subsonic missile.

>>>>There are only few contries in the world(Russia , China,India) that had opted for Supersonic missile as their NG AShM missile , Reason being ,Inceresed Speen and beter penetration Power , there seems to be a belief that Supersonic offer the best penetration of defence in future warfare.
>>>> While countries including Nato & USA are persuing a path of subsonic development concentrating on Longer Range , Increased Stealth , better guidance (IIR , active PAR, realtime datalink , GPS) , Lower profile flights , use of AI etc .

So I would like to ask the members to debate upon which is the best option for future AShM , India also is persuning on both the path Supesonic(Bhramos) & Subsonic ( sagarika :-) , KH-35 etc , and ofcourse our dearst Klub having the best features of Both the world

>>>>> PS : Recent reports & discussion on various forums indicate that Russian Seeker are highly probable to Jamming and tehy lack processing power and so it is one of the main reason for India developing its own Seker for Brhomos with help rom the Israels

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Harry Van » 26 Jul 2002 18:49

Supersonic missile enjoy the advantage of speed , but they have to fly at higher level , say 4-5 m above sea level and that makes it easier to detect them.They can get to the target quicker.If they are destroyed the large KE ensures some destruction anyhow by fragments.

Subsonic missiles have low speed.But this also means they can skim the sea surface and make it difficult for radar to acquire them.They take longer time to reach target so mid-course updates are more important.They also have lower radar cross section as they carry lesser fuel and consequently can be made smaller and slimmer.

Western countries believe in subsonic missiles with good AI and electronics to do the job.They gave up on supersonic after researching on them and concluding that no significant benefit may be obtained.But i think now there is an effort in the West to make a supersonic AShM and the US may field one around 2010.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 26 Jul 2002 18:59

I have yet run into any info on whether kashtan that proves it is closed or open loop system. But i know russians did devolop a closed loop CIWS not exactly sure whether it is kashtan or palash.
BTW Wondering is Kashtan capable of handling the pantsyr missiles ?
>>>>> PS : Recent reports & discussion on various forums indicate that Russian Seeker are highly probable to Jamming and tehy lack processing power and so it is one of the main reason for India developing its own Seker for Brhomos with help rom the Israels
well most active seekers are suceptible to jaming that is one the reasons why Yakhont/Brahmos will also have a passive seeker and russia also planned IR seeker for yakhont but may be DRDO will implement that with israeli help.

Can anyone explain whats is this RAM and how it works please ??
RAM is rolling airframe missile planned to be fitted in as CIWS, the program is funded by Germany and U.S. It use IR+RF seeker compared to CLOS used by kashtan. There is also plans for a version that will replace older version of Phalanx called Sea Ram.

well actually taiwan is also devoloping a supersonic ashm it is called HFIII its range is supposed to be around 500 km. US reportedly has bought both Moskit and Kh-31 but USN never showed public intrest in deploying supersonic ashm may be it had to do fear of proliferation.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Harry Van » 26 Jul 2002 19:03

Frankly speaking how much of Brahmos guidance is actually Indian.While undoubtedly Russian electronics is inferior to the West , it cannnot be said to be inferior to Indian.The Yakhont missile itself has received some rave reviews in the West for its AI and multi-missile communication and coordination capabilities.

The point is Russia is a cash-strapped country.Its only successful industry is the defence industry , its a major source of revenue for Russians.Russia needs funds for funding its weapons programs.China has been more than willing to do it and has developed deep ties with the Russian aerospace industry and is eveing to joint produce teh stealth aircraft Mig 1.42.But Russians are aware of teh danger of sharing technology with the chinese.That is why they offered the Indo-Russian JSF to India and also the Brahmos missile .India's response in teh case of teh former remains luke warm , we have not yet signed on the dotted line.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby advitya » 26 Jul 2002 19:41

Originally posted by harryvandeusan:
Frankly speaking how much of Brahmos guidance is actually Indian.....India's response in teh case of teh former remains luke warm , we have not yet signed on the dotted line.I am sure Brahmos was forced down Indian throats , at gun point.
You will be surprised at the first point....and he who has the money has the gun!

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby merlin » 26 Jul 2002 19:42

<I>>>It is better called an Russian-Israeli venture than and Indo-Russian one.</I>

Do you know more than most of us here or are you just shooting your mouth off?

<I>>>I am sure Brahmos was forced down Indian throats , at gun point.</I>

Interesting. And your source is?

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Harry Van » 26 Jul 2002 20:51

I would be the happiest if Indian contribution for Brahmos guidance is substantial.I would be happy to be surprised.I am aware the fact we have sold super-computers to the Moscow University.

The reason why I had expressed doubt was our own failure to develop the Trishul and Akash in which case it has been said that the guidance system does not work.

This is what the Indo-Russian Security Forum experts had to say :

``The sharing of high-edge defence technologies is only possible between trusted partners, It is unfeasible, for example, between Russia and China, though the latter, like India, is a major buyer of Russian weapons.''

Lets Get back to the Klub.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 26 Jul 2002 22:03

Some info on the RAM, and a correction on the onfo given by John regarding the seeker on it. Block 1 RAM missiles have got both RF and IR guidance, but Block 0 have only got RF guidance.

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/missiles/wep-ram.html

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Harry Van » 26 Jul 2002 22:07

On the topic of CIWS , how about using a 155mm or 255mm gun as a sawed-off shotgun , firing a thousands of tiny steel balls in a 3D cone , and doing it every second ???

I had always felt that using a stinger/sidewinder/igla as an anti-missile weapons would be the cheapest and and safest.After all the NMD hopes to intercept a warhead entering earth atmosphere at Mach 10 with a kill vehicle using IR seeker for terminal guidance.Clearly there should be no problem in intercepting a Mach 4 missile with another doing Mach 3-4 or even Mach 5.Nice to know it has indeed been tried out.

If missiles are spotted early on by UAVs and are travelling in groups (waves) we could even try using large calibre mortar shells to knock them off , at least a substantial number of them , by ensuring shells land close to the approaching missiles ... only we have to use shells with FRAG warheads.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 26 Jul 2002 23:26

Hi,

stop being a party pooper and ruin the fun for us Klub fans

Rakesh, I am in KFC too :)

On the topic of CIWS , how about using a 155mm or 255mm gun as a sawed-off shotgun , firing a thousands of tiny steel balls in a 3D cone , and doing it every second ???

That is what AHEAD ammo does and it can be fired from an conventional gun.

If missiles are spotted early on by UAVs and are travelling in groups (waves) we could even try using large calibre mortar shells to knock them off

harry, You have an original mind, i'll grant you that.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 26 Jul 2002 23:41

One major problem about using VSHORADs as CIWS is their response time, they are simply to slow, it takes too long for them to lock on their target and fire. This can be helped somewhat by discovering the incoming AShM very far from the ship, but then again, if you can do that, why not have a missile system that can shoot down the missile before it enters its terminal phase - Area Air Defence.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Guest » 27 Jul 2002 05:57

basic differences between Subsonic and Supersonic cruise missiles.

link: http://www.brahmos.com/html/effectivness.html

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby JCage » 27 Jul 2002 15:10

While undoubtedly Russian electronics is inferior to the West , it cannnot be said to be inferior to Indian.The Yakhont missile itself has received some rave reviews in the West for its AI and multi-missile communication and coordination capabilities.It is better called an Russian-Israeli venture than and Indo-Russian one.
Bull!Any source for ISRAELI cooperation in Brahmos ?Brahmos IS NOT the Yakhont.It may be called a derivative but not the same missile.

re Indian participation we want it to be made according to INDIAN specs and desires.. not buy a ready made russian missile and adApt our doctrine to suit their's.

Originally posted by harryvandeusan:
I would be the happiest if Indian contribution for Brahmos guidance is substantial.I would be happy to be surprised.I am aware the fact we have sold super-computers to the Moscow University.
Look you keep on contradicting yourself and going in circles.
The least you can do before shooting your mouth off is look at www.brahmos.com

The reason why I had expressed doubt was our own failure to develop the Trishul and Akash in which case it has been said that the guidance system does not work.
Has it ever crossed your thoughts that the Akash and Trishul may be superior or different compared to what is available elsewhere?
And that the technologies in the Akash and Trishul SAM's arent necessarily the same as in Brahmos..a CRUISE MISSILE?
Indian experience in INS and seeker technology isnt miniscule as you seem to suggest.
And you fail to consider that India wishes to have a substantial stake for the sake of building upon its technological base.

Also it is a fact that Russia has difficulty in getting India do High-Tech ventures with it.
Says who?Heard of the MKI?A plane custom built to indian specs per Indian request and need?
While the chinese get fobbed off with a MKK at the same prices?

China is ever-ready and and also gives the money but China is seen as a threat by Russians.Russian Premier had to come to India to push the JSF and I am sure Russians must have put pressure to get India to agree to do the Brahmos.I did'nt actually mean they came with a gun , it was just literary flourish ,
Then i'd suggest you stick to facts and leave literary flourishes where they belong!

the point is India is looking for cooperation with West(eg LCA) whereas Russia would like India to be its partner rather than China in making weapons which are equivalent to and challenge certain classes of Western weapons(like JSF).
Whats that got to do with Brahmos?
Y'mean to say all that we do with the russians is because the Russians forced us to do so?if so,your naivete is indeed shocking.

This is what the Indo-Russian Security Forum experts had to say :

``The sharing of high-edge defence technologies is only possible between trusted partners, It is unfeasible, for example, between Russia and China, though the latter, like India, is a major buyer of Russian weapons.''

Lets Get back to the Klub
And that tells us that we are forced to buy stuff from Russia? :roll:

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby geeth » 27 Jul 2002 16:04

>>>I have yet run into any info on whether kashtan that proves it is closed or open loop system. But i know russians did devolop a closed loop CIWS not exactly sure whether it is kashtan or palash.

Frankly, I don't understand the emphasis for having a closed loop system for AK-630 type weapon systems.. Their range is about 2 KMs or so and the guns fire unguided shells. The radar keeps tracking the target and the gunner keeps pumping shells creating a cloud around the target so that atleast one in hundreds of them hits the target. How is the feedback control going to work in such a scenario? Isn't it that the Radar will have to give feeedback on errors of all the hundreds of shells fired? All in fraction of a second?

>>>One major problem about using VSHORADs as CIWS is their response time, they are simply to slow, it takes too long for them to lock on their target and fire. This can be helped somewhat by discovering the incoming AShM very far from the ship, but then again, if you can do that, why not have a missile system that can shoot down the missile before it enters its terminal phase - Area Air Defence.

IMO your perception about CIWS may be a bit different. A system like AK-630 is used as a last ditch defence against the incoming missile when all other systems like SAMs, 76 MM guns (yes they also take part and can fire shells against incoming missiles with reasonable accuracy)fail at a longer range. The AK-630 Radar would have started tracking the radar much before the 2-KM range and permission to engage ready, and the gunner presses the button when the target is within his firing range. You will rarely see only an AK-630 type of system used for defence except for small missile boats where there is no space to accommodate other systems.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 27 Jul 2002 16:20

But Geeth, I was talking about navies that equip their ships with VSHORADs as the only defence against air attack.
A Mistral launcher wont do sh*t against a Brahmos or a Harpoon, as it wont have time to react and fire the missile.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Harry Van » 27 Jul 2002 21:51

It was John who first told me that we were doing it with Israeli help.Prior to that I wasn't aware of that.And since the Israelis were quite advanced , I thought....well I won't do it again I promise.And I also visited the Brahmos site long back.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 27 Jul 2002 21:55

and I am sure Russians must have put pressure to get India to agree to do the Brahmos.I did'nt actually mean they came with a gun , it was just literary flourish
Here is my opinion in order to devolop next generation naval system you need joint cooperation unless ofcourse you are USN. Compared to the investment being made for projects like PAAMS. IN's investment in Brahmos co. is less than 150 million and each PJ-10 missile will cost 2 million each. Not even Aster SAM in its present form is capable of intercepting it. I wouldn't suprised once Brahmos ashm is readied other western navies rush to develop their own supersonic ashm.

It was John who first told me that we were doing it with Israeli help.
Go back and read i was replying to austin's post the brahmos will use israeli seeker. I suggested that DRDO will may seek israeli assitance. But currently israel is not part of Brahmos project because russia doesn't exactly trust israel.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby VikramS » 27 Jul 2002 23:07

Regarding electronics:

They are typically two main components in such a system, the data gatherer and the data processor.

The data gathering technology is a mixture of analog and digital stuff; probably a lot more difficult to master since it requires expertise in a variety of areas (materials, manufacturing etc.).

On the other hand the data-processing technology is a combination of Real Time OS technology coupled with good digital systems design skills. These days off-the shelf FPGAs pack a hugh amount of processing power and reconfigurability. They can do huge amount of signal processing at very fast rates. With our skills in software design and the availability of off-the-shelf silicon with high performance capabilities, it is much easier to develope high-performance data processing engines. Even many TI programable DSP processors package a huge amount of processing power.

This is very different from even five years ago where developing a high performance hardware meant designing an ASIC with its associated costs of manufacturing and the risk associated with sending the design to Taiwan/China etc. Advances in silicon technology has enabled countries lacking ASIC manufacturing expertise to be able to come up with competitive designs.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 28 Jul 2002 14:29

Hi,

Geeth, most CIWS are autonomous - there is no gunner (except in the earliest AK-630s). Ordinary radar directed guns track where the target is, guess where it will be in so many milliseconds and order the guns to fire at that coordinate. A close loop system will not only tell you where to fire, but also if you are indeed hitting the target, and if not what the correction should be. Yes it will have to track all the outgoing shells. And yes, it is tough - that's why there are only a few effective close looped systems extant.

BTW, CIWS wont fire hundreds of shell at a single target. While the rpm is very high (the best of class being around 10,000 rpm), the guns are fired in very short bursts. Most CIWS dont cary more than a few hunderd ready rounds in all.

geeth
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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby geeth » 28 Jul 2002 18:04

>>>Geeth, most CIWS are autonomous - there is no gunner (except in the earliest AK-630s). Ordinary radar directed guns track where the target is, guess where it will be in so many milliseconds and order the guns to fire at that coordinate. A close loop system will not only tell you where to fire, but also if you are indeed hitting the target, and if not what the correction should be. Yes it will have to track all the outgoing shells. And yes, it is tough - that's why there are only a few effective close looped systems extant.

Basically it tracks the target and aim the gun. I still can't understand how the corrective action can be fed to the gun control by tracking all these shells.

>>>BTW, CIWS wont fire hundreds of shell at a single target. While the rpm is very high (the best of class being around 10,000 rpm), the guns are fired in very short bursts. Most CIWS dont cary more than a few hunderd ready rounds in all.

Well, if my memory serves me right, a twin barrel AK-230 would pump out 120 shells or so in a single short burst. The guns are fired in short bursts more to prevent the barrel from melting than to conserve rounds, though that is also an important consideration. Regarding number of rounds carried, your info may not be accurate.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Nandai » 28 Jul 2002 19:00

The Myriad has 2000 ready-to-fire rounds.

There is also a question about how long it takes for the gatling gun to accelerate the barrels up to the maximum speed. So in the beginning of the burst the rpm is quite a bit lower, unles you keept the barrels spinning the whole time, which you dont.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Philip » 28 Jul 2002 21:38

There is no question that the Brahmos is a derivative of the basic Yakhont missile.All pics of the two missiles betray that fact.However,the Brahmos may have a different custom made seeker to suit Indian operational requirements.In general,Russian missiles have been aimed at US carrier forces in particular,especially the heavyweight SSMs.One report said some time ago that the IN is of the opinion that a supersonic missile has 7-9 times the kill factor than a subsonic missile.Here,the Klub's terminal projectile,supersonic over the last 25km or so, gives it a definite advantage over other anti-shipping missiles especially those of western origin .The Klubs terminal projectile is also probably smaller than the Brahmos which would make it a more difficult taregt to acquire for anti-missile defences.

The most interesting point about the IN's missile capability is its sheer versatility.We have in service,the older Styx derivatives aboard earlier Tarantulas and Godavaris,stil carrying a heavy warhead and quite potent,Urans,Klubs,air launched Sea Eagles,Brahmos in the pipeline and possibly some of the Russian air launched KH-series of missiles on various aircraft types including TU-142s and Backfires.Along with the Scorpenes would be Exocets too and possibly newer French missiles under development.One can visualise the consternation of the enemy when a salvo of missiles of all these different types arrive at around the same time in a coordinated attack!There would be few if any defences Aegis included,which could weather such a maelstorm.The task now is for the IN to construct/acquire enough platforms to deliver these missiles in sufficient quantities for warfare both in the oceana and in the littorals with the need for long range land attack missiles to hit high value targets deep inland.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby Badar » 28 Jul 2002 22:24

Hi,

I still can't understand how the corrective action can be fed to the gun control by tracking all these shells

Geeth, by tracking the outgoing shells, you know not only if you are missing your target but also by how much. It works just like tracers do for a machine gunner on a dark night.

One can visualise the consternation of the enemy when a salvo of missiles of all these different types arrive...

fowler, I can visualize even more readily the consternation of the IN Fleet Logistics officer when yet another AShM type in introduced into the navy. Two more missile types in the navy and it can legally change its name to Indian Naval Zoo :)

But I guess he has an understanding shoulder to cry on in the person of the IAF spares procurement officer.

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Re: Klub ASCM and Kilo Upgrades

Postby John » 29 Jul 2002 01:08

All pics of the two missiles betray that fact
Phillip from the pictures released by Brahmos co, the brahmos missile looks very similar to yakhont am i missing something? From what i read Brahmos will use an Indian onboard computer and the main difference is that it can set to attack land targets using radio contrast. The Kill factor is enhanced 7 to 9 times for supersonic missile partly because of the energy of such a collison, MC^2. Article in Brahmos.com indicate Brahmos wil some stealth capability i suspect probably due to its design and RAM coating. Klub is a capable missile against vessels PN and PLAN but against modern fleet the probability of sucessful hit is lot lower. Mainly because of the time it will take to reach the target around 13 to 15 min to reach a range of 220 km (compared to 5 min to go 280 km by Brahmos) Coupled with the fact that its active seeker is very suceptible to jaming. So if enemy has AEW capability all he has to do is just move his vessels away from the klub's targeted spot and start jamming Klub's seeker. Also the fact it is subsonic most of the way makes it easier to intercept it.
Here is my idea on IN missile arsenal will look like in the future.
Uran - fitted as stop gap measure in IN vessels till Brahmos was readied. However it will still serve in IAF and IN's air arm.
Klub - fitted in likely into Frigates and SSK's.
Brahmos - replacement for the styx, likely arm SSN's,missile boats and Destroyers. Ground launched and Air launched version will be used.
Styx, sea eagle will be retired and Scorpene SSK will be likely fitted with Klub ashm. IN will still buy small quantity of sub launched exocet for test purposes.
Anyway replacing all the Styx with Brahmos could be a immense financial undertaking so i suspect some vessels will still carry Styx till vessels are retired.

Just a note according to russian sources 12 Yakhont ashm can be fitted in place of 4 P-15 termit missiles in their Tarantul missile boats.


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