The Police - once again

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 05 Jul 2001 18:30

After reading through the lengthy thread on Karunanidhi's arrest, I thought of starting a thread on Indian Police and its so called brutality.Could we all discuss a scheme which we may feel is a better way of policing the country (May be some policeman would have a look at it too some day). Also let us take into consideration the basic mentality of the people too. That is if the people are basically corrupt, the police becomes corrupt too, and if people are goondas, the police become uniformed goondas too...------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------

Nikhil Shah · Post by **Nikhil Shah** » 05 Jul 2001 18:50

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sachin: That is if the people are basically corrupt, the police becomes corrupt too, and if people are goondas, the police become uniformed goondas too...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Shouldn't it be other way? If the authority is corrupt, the people will have to resrt ot corruption. If the authority uses extra-constitutional means to achieve it goals, people will have to do the same.Police should be under the governor and not chief ministers just the way Armed Forces are under the President and not prime minister.

Kuttan · Post by **Kuttan** » 05 Jul 2001 19:40

I understand what Sachin is saying, and this is a frustration of police all around the world. However, it IS a large part of the policeperson's job to be honest, fair, compassionate to the extent possible except when dealing with violence, and clearly uphold the law. Typically, police get paid far too little for the demands of their jobs, and are treated far too badly. But the above two items are exactly the excuses used by thieves, robbers etc. for their actions. So if the police use these excuses, they are no better, and should be promptly kicked out. It is the nature of the job description, and the conduct that is expected as result, that are supposed to earn respect for the "badge" and the "uniform". If people lose faith in these aspects, then the police needs cleaning up. The corrupt nature of the police is what leads to events like the Dacoit Queen getting elected as lawmaker, or the Khalistan terrorists being allowed to return: the argument that "society treated me very badly and the System broke down in not upholding the law" becomes valid. This tears into the foundations of society, and the law of the jungle results. So, sorry, Sachin, but I think the Police in India, and most specifically in Kerala, need MAJOR clean-up.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Jul 2001 10:35

The resident police experts like Sunil Sainis seems to be missing. Nikhil Policemen come from the same society which they police. Corruption in India is the most common thing, and you certainly cannot expect a police man to change all of a sudden. Remember you join the police say after 20 years, and until that day even a would-be police man may have given bribes and supported corrupted officials. The day he joins the force, he also understands that he is now part of a team which can take bribes. If police has to become non-corrupt, they have to be very good incentives for them. Delhi police had introduced a scheme, which gave a 50% commission on every ticket issued by the PSI. The cops were happy in booking offenders, since they got extra white money out of it.narayanan Remember thieves and robbers do the robbery for not any social good, but to feed them. But we maintain a police force, to keep control and to guide people. As per your claim you say "a police man can be paid very less, but he is expected to protect us with all his might and courage, and if he accepts bribe, then promptly kick them out..". Remember you are paying some one to protect you (or society as a whole), and it is our responsibility to make them happy. If you fire every corrupt police man, who is going to police the state

Have you ever felt that police force is an un-neccessary burden?Even I feel the police needs a thorough over-hauling, but who is going to do it, and how? I don't understand how the police helped in making an MP out of a dacoit queen. The police job is to enforce the law, and not change it. If our constituition allows dacoits to become an MP, police (corrupt or non-corrupt) can stop it.Regarding Kerala people and Kerala Police, I strongly feel the people of the state deserve such a force. I have been held up numerous times by Rasta Rokos and Rail Bandhs. And many times I have felt "why don't these cops just lathi charge this crowd out, and let every one move around freely.." . Caught in such political stunts what would you prefer doing? Convince the top political leaders about the bad effects of holding traffic (while you are waiting), or use force to move these political bigwigs out of the field and then may be reason with them later?------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------

shim george · Post by **shim george** » 06 Jul 2001 20:20

Sachin, I have discussed through 2 threads on police with you. I understand what you say about the police. I would not like to take up a job like that. There is no fame and glory I thiink with the police or at least I feel they are not paid attention to. The army most certainly is. But however it is there job. But in police business there are no competitiors. In any business such as the toothpaste business you have competitiors. Buit that is not the case in police. There is one police force. Security is not really all over and is ,mostly guaRDING A BUILDING OR A campus. I really think they should get paid better. They should have better equipment not only in the cities but in local villages. As the cities are going to international standards there has to be improvements ininfrastructure. This is especially in the case of Bangalore which aspires to become a hitech city. It is also important to improve police presence when crime is high. I do hae a question? Say a U.S criminal with all he needs tor rob a bank robs one. Will he get away or will he be caught?

Kuttan · Post by **Kuttan** » 06 Jul 2001 20:30

Sachin: Now you hit upon one of the crucial points. There is a HUGE difference between what I would LIKE to do when I am frustrated with the system, and what I should do. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>use force to move these political bigwigs out of the field and then may be reason with them later?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sure, I would love that, as long as they are not out on the street representing MY cause. But a police force which has only that option, is a lousy force. In fact their problem is that they only consider themselves a "force" not an "authority". The right approach to "rasta rokos" is to get a court order making such things illegal, and subjecting those who obstruct traffic and trade to arrest and prosecution, NOT physical abuse. This takes intelligence, perseverance and determination, and I agree that its the legislators and lawyers who need to get that court order. And actually there IS such an order from the Kerala High Court, so it comes back to the lack of enforcement. All our professions have frustrations. That does not mean that we can abdicate our reponsibilities. Here's another recent example of Kerala Police bull-in-the-China-Shop smartness: Last year (I think) there was a big fuss about a petting zoo / pet shop in Kerala. Apparently the owner of that establishment was an ex-member of some union or other, and was then out of favor with the Marxist government. Result: Police went there, supposedly to enforce SPCA rules about treatment of animals. They put several snakes and other creatures in gunny bags, tied the bags like mailbags and tossed them in a corner of the police warehouse. For weeks. Most of the animals died of suffocation or dehydration. Then it turns out that that whole "raid" was illegal and politically motivated.....Too late for the poor animals, of course. Now tell me, was that real smart of the police? Shouldn't jackasses who do such things be kicked out? Yet such behavior is assumed to be so routine that not many in Kerala even think any action should be taken. No argument, sure there are abuses in society. But the Police, by definition, are hired to Uphold the Law. If they don't then sure, they should be kicked out. The standard threat about "kick out the police, and lets see how you like it" is garbage: what should be done is to kick out any police who make such threats, and hire others who don't. Firemen, autorickshaw drivers, soldiers, fighter pilots, train drivers, villagers near the LOC or Assam, schoolkids on Delhi streets, all have really hazardous and tough lives. This does not make them qualified to be corrupt, incompetent and utterly stupid like our Police seem trained to be. How to reform them? Hire good, smart people as leaders of the Police, institute good curricula in the training schools, and greatly strengthen the Internal Review processes in the Police. Establish solid Merit-based review/ promotion systems, protected by civil service rules. Then hire judges who will streamline the system so that the common people can file lawsuits against Police misbehavior, and issue a couple of judgements where the Big Bosses are held personally liable for the results of violating the rights of people. As for the people, well...establish a foundation which will help dedicated lawyers pursue class-action or individual lawsuits. Look at how the totally corrupt legal system in the SouthEast US (where I live) was reformed to some extent by the tactics described above. Its improved things a lot within a couple of decades.

Nikhil Shah · Post by **Nikhil Shah** » 06 Jul 2001 20:41

Now another argument is that they have to pay a lot of money to enter the force, which they do with an assumption that they will get it back in a few years and that because the pay is so lousy that they have to resortto corruption to put bread on the table.We all know that police are paid lousy everywhere in the world. Especially when you look at the risk/reward parameter of the job. So if the pay is so lousy, why join at all? To make money via corruption? This means that there is nothing better to do than literally selling your dignity/honor to make a living. Kind of like prostitution.

S Bajwa · Post by **S Bajwa** » 06 Jul 2001 21:07

In Early 1900's when Punjab police did not had enough of force to maintain their strength., money was raised substantially., (100 rupees extra per day+allowances for vehicle, food, lodging,telephone +regulary salary) and on top of that if they capture/kill a terrorist then had the prize money. NOW. Punjab police is probably the most experienced (in counter insurgency and special operations they are valued from Karnataka to Kashmir from Assam to Rajasthan) with innovative methods (like using tractors).Sandeep

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 07 Jul 2001 12:13

Here's another recent example of Kerala Police bull-in-the-China-Shop smartness: Last year (I think) there was a big fuss about a petting zoo / pet shop in Kerala. Apparently the owner of that establishment was an ex-member of some union or other, and was then out of favor with the Marxist government. This incident was politically motivated, because one of the people controlling the institiute (a Snake Park), was Mr. M.V Raghavan the No.1 enemy of CPI(M) (Mohandas to correct me if I am wrong). The police raided the place with full court orders. The ruling was seize the animals and let them out into their natural habitats.The police had already captured the animals using what ever means they could get (i.e gunny bags for snakes, and crocodiles were tied up). After this, the new court order came and the court took around 2 days to take a final decision as to put the animals back into the institute. As per the rule any thing which is seized from a place, the police has to keep it under their safe custody. It is like if you capture a vehicle full of illicit liquor, both these are generally kept at the police station, until the court decides what is to be done. By the time the court decides, generally the vehicle would have become useless.In the case of animals too, this is what had happened. They had recovered all animals, but the police found themselves in a fix. Narayanan, there have also been incidents when cows/goats etc were left to police custody, because their were family disputes over them.

) And it became the police responsibility to feed them too.In the Snake park incident there was wide spread hue and cry which was more against the establishment (i.e govt,SPCA, court and police). As regarding training and humanising the police force. I believe that IPS training is one of the best in the country, and also human-rights courses are being given to the police. But still they remain the same. Again is it because of the political interference?------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------

shim george · Post by **shim george** » 07 Jul 2001 21:21

You know instead of being corrupt they should just strike. Maybe there should be some monitoring by our anti-corruption bureau the CBI. Only place I could think of that targets corruption. Does anybody know an officer's salary in a year? Naryanan, Are you sure this is true. I have known Kerela to have some remarkable achievements such as they highest literacy rate in the world and population control. I would think thar they would have a good police force.

Nikhil Shah · Post by **Nikhil Shah** » 07 Jul 2001 23:33

This is ridiculous. Having questioned by 2 pandus (oops! constables), I know that they are more into making money than doing their job right for public safety.Enjoy:************************************Source: Chalomumbai.comAfter Bandra's Bandstand, it s the turn of the Azad Maidan police to crack their whip on couples who indulge in 'indecent behaviour' at Marine Drive."Basa, pan chumban gheoo naka, godhi var basu naka (sit, but do not kiss or sit on each other s laps)," is Azad Maidan senior police inspector N M Askulkar s warning to couples.What the cops say* No kissing or smooching * No sitting facing the sea * No sitting on the rocks * No sitting in 'compromising positions' Needless to say, the lovers are not amused. "Can t I spend time with my boyfriend at Marine Drive? Where are the police when eunuchs and urchins harass us," asks Sunita Choudhary, who works for a private firm at Nariman Point. Her boyfriend Prabhakar Roy, who works in Tardeo, says, "I thought Marine Drive was the only safe place left for us. I think the police just can t stand couples." Both uniformed and plainclothes policemen have been patrolling Marine Drive during evening hours to keep an eye on activities of lovers there. According to eyewitnesses, at least two policemen armed with batons move on the pavements there and inspect couples, especially those sitting on ledges facing the sea.Apart from couples, men sitting in groups for long intervals are also questioned. Sameer Sheikh, a frequent visitor there, says, "We sit at Marine Drive to do riyaz (practise singing). But the police always question us." His friend Mandeep, also a frequenter at Marine Drive, says, "I think the police have run out of work. They are simply wasting their time targeting couples and other people." Joggers are the only ones happy to see police patrolling. "It keeps couples in check," says a resident of A Road, Churchgate. Police defend their action saying it is to keep away anti-social elements. Askulkar says, "I am not against couples frequenting Marine Drive. I only ask them to sit decently. Their presence has encouraged petty criminals, eunuchs and hawkers to flourish at Marine Drive." He says there were four cases of robbery last month in which young couples were threatened at knife point at Marine Drive. "Though many couples have been warned against indecent behaviour in public, we have let them off without making any case. I have also asked cracked down on hawkers. With hawkers around the couples spend more time at Marine Drive," he says.As couples look out for privacy, the policemen are determined not to keep public places free of private affairs.

bala · Post by **bala** » 08 Jul 2001 02:12

Let me state upfront that there may be good people in the police force. However the average Indian police is looked at with ridicule not only by the average Indian citizen but also by foreigners. Perception is very low mainly due to routine behaviour of the police personnel. No one really says hi, how are you or chit chat in a friendly manner. There is fear and loathing and downright contempt for an average cop. All this goes back to leadership. At an average police station we see the superintendent of police being fawned upon by his juniors. Other times we see visitors being escorted and waited upon. In one situation I was witness to a minor hick up caused by a junior police women. Apparently the person insisted on driving in a bus free of charge but the conductor objected and was hauled up to the police station. The boss in charge defused the crisis by letting go of the conductor. Police usually harass common folks by demanding petty favors. Instead of concentrating on obvious crimes they focus their attention on harassing innocent citizens. Traffic police are another source of mirth. The business of traffic policing is taken lightly like a picnic in the park. Everyone flouts rules right in front of the cop. No one pays attention to the poor fellow. Contrast this with traffic police in the US or Singapore or Germany. We need to go back to basics. Cops need to be taught about enforcing law in a fair and faithfull manner. They need to be taught human rights and dignity. Ruthless and inhuman treatment is for yesteryear. Every action they undertake is accountable and under scrutiny of the public and media. Enforcement should be timely and just. Top brass should not be at the whim and mercy of two bit politicians. Complaints should be reported and recording by a central agency which coordinates and assigns personnel for prompt action. Police need to understand that they belong to the community and are accountable in the same manner. This is not an adverserial relation, rather it is one of vigilance and enforcement of proper law and order.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Jul 2001 12:35

You know instead of being corrupt they should just strike. I did'nt get the correct meaning of the word strike. If you mean they should go on a protest strike, then policemen are not supposed to go on strike. And if you mean, that they should strike against corruption, I can guarantee that many police officers feel that, nobody is going to support them in their endeavours.I have heard people commenting on our local SI (he was a School Teacher, but took up this job due to interest). The people said, he was not fit to be a police man, because he never used to bash up criminals. :O This man was famous for his ways of advicing criminals and gathering evidence using forensic techniques.------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------

shim george · Post by **shim george** » 08 Jul 2001 22:32

I meant protest strike. I do not see how they would loose even though they are forbidden. But the public knows what they are going through and why they act the way they act. DO you know Sachina police officer's yearly pay?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 09 Jul 2001 10:23

shim george A constable's avg. pay comes up to Rs.60,000/- p.a. Police men, if they go on strike can be arrested (may be they will have to ask the Army to do it) and imprisoned. And in many places the Police Welfare Associations itself have split up in party lines. So there is no single association, which can implement a strike.Public knows very little about a policeman's plight. As many of us out here, we only see police brutality towards us. In many cases the common man in India, is never interested in the police business at all.------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------

Sujit · Post by **Sujit** » 09 Jul 2001 14:06

Sachin:I fully agree with Nikhil in that, unless the police forces of the states are brought under the Governor's control, it is difficult to see an efficient police force in India. I think I had written about this suggestion on a Police thread before. Given the state of politics in India, this has to become a reality soon. For a starter, there should at least be a semblence of impartiality. Sad to say, with Jaya et. al. at the helm, that is certainly not the case.Further, I agree that even though acid rains come down from the sky, it is manufactured at ground level. But that shouldn't be used as an excuse, because if you do, I can justify any corruption and brutalizing of the citizens by the likes of Jaya, Laloo ... Leftists, Rightists ... you name it. Aren't they too a product of the society? If so, then we, not them are responsible for their acts ... that acceptable to you entirely?In India, the people in power weild it with utter disregard to civility. Raw power is concentrated in the hands of the executive branch of the govt. To counter-balance such power, neutral authorities will have to be strengthened to initiate remedial measures. The President/Governor and the Judiciary are the examples of such refrees.Another reason why the police force in India can get away with murder (remember Bhagalpur blindings?) is because their masters have a stake in prosecuting these rogue elements. Had the Governor of a state been the supreme commander of the police force in that state, we could at least expect that the Governor would step in when the requirement arises. In the least, the threat of such a gubernatorial intervention will work wonders with the political masters.I think another reason for the police getting away with outrageous behaviour is the sorry state of the lawyers in India. A large number of them are so incompetent that they cannot move the courts to stop the police in their tracks. This is true even when the police have gone berserk without political motivations.Finally, sorry to state that the police forces' functioning, mirror their masters the politicians, in every respect. Given a chance, nobody would touch them even wearing gloves and using a barge-pole.[This message has been edited by Sujit Sanyal (edited 09-07-2001).]

shim george · Post by **shim george** » 09 Jul 2001 22:30

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sachin: shim george A constable's avg. pay comes up to Rs.60,000/- p.a. Police men..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Please tell me that is a month's salay. That is terrible. If it is theyearly salary hopefully it was tax deducted. Maybe the police should put it out there the, fustrations of their life.

Atul · Post by **Atul** » 12 Jul 2001 13:06

Would like to share some of the thoughts which keep crossing my mind.1. The nexus between politicians and criminals comes in the way of police discharging its duties efficiently. 2. The brave deeds of police should be projected more by the media( news, movies, magazines etc ). Most of the Hindi movies be it art or commercial show that an honest police personnel is tortured like hell by criminals and will also have to face the death and torture of his near and dear ones in the family. Imagine the psyche of the young kids who grow up watching this stuff. By the time they grow up, they will forever have all this firmly embedded in their subconciousness and if they happen to join the police, this mind frame may prevent them to take bold and daring steps against the criminals. If the movies don’t show this then the other aspect is shown, that is the police officer is very corrupt and how easy it is for him to gang up with criminals and make money. A young man sitting on the edge of morality might just out of frustration with unemployment join police to make money or otherwise discharge duties inefficiently. Also the common man will be scared to report to police about the activities of criminals because of his preconceived notion that police will side with the criminals and might in turn hassle him and his family instead. Media should play a very positive and important role in building up the image of police. 3. Do the police and army have the same salary and perk structures? If not, I feel that the salaries and perks of army and police should atleast be the same. If possible those units of police who go after dreaded criminals and the army units involved in combating terrorism should be paid more. I am saying this considering the risk factor. I have all the respect for the army who risk their lives while fighting the enemy across the border during war time but atleast the war time is limited( excluding the terrorism part ) and the enemy whereabouts are known to some extent. For police chasing the criminals and terrorists, the whereabouts of culprits are unknown. It’s a fight against the unknown. Any one has an idea as to what is the difference in the pay and perk structures of police and army in other countries and also in our country. 4. Why not have the same kind of set up for police as it is for the army. 5. What is the percentage of people in police force who take this up as a first choice and not as the only choice left out. Coupled with incentives, attractive pay etc something should also be done in moral science classes at school/college level so that the society as a whole feels motivated and takes pride in serving this force. I have seen many times in trains and in public places that when an army personnel is around the parents encourage their children to talk to them and everyone is comfortable with them around. But the moment the police personnel is around there is a sense of uneasiness around...one can even hear parents trying to control their children in hushed voices saying ssshhhh! behave yourself ! the policewalla will catch you. It’s a circle. Though such acts are not being done deliberately by elders but it does leave its impact on child psyche and his perception of police as a whole. 6. Nowadays there is so much importance given to HR. Every now and then the police force should go through continuous motivational HR programs through out their service life. Even the MP/MLAs should be made to continuously undergo the value based motivational HR programmes. 7. I think fitness wise the army personnel are more fit than police personnel. Well if its true then this also should change. 8. But finally, it will be the politicians who will be responsible for whatever changes are required to make the police/society effective and dignified. Majority of them won’t be interested in it as it would go against their interests. Regards.

Kuttan · Post by **Kuttan** » 15 Jul 2001 21:22

Shim George: Unfortunately, my stories about the Police Force of my dear and beautiful home state are all accurate in substance, though the precise details may be clouded by time and ignorance. About the practice of Police arresting and beating up the local urchins, I know this of recent experience because I got into a major argument with a close relative and threatened to fund those "urchins" in damage suits against the organization (happened to be a temple where there had been a burglary) which was considering naming these guys as suspects to the police. No idea what happened after I returned from vacation, but he did seem very hurt by my asking how he was different from a savage

. In the 1960s (my earliest memories) there was an article in the Ceylon Daily News about an Indian policeman from Kerala or TN. It was a nice article, but the closing was something like: "and he was retiring to his village on the princely pension of Rs. 10 per month". The value of the rupee has come down by a factor of maybe 10 since then, but the fact remains that Indian policemen are terribly under-paid. Now for working conditions. During the Punjab troubles, I read that the policemen standing guard outside the VIPs' quarters ( a VERY hazardous job: the enemy came with their motorcycles, grenades, IEDs, and AK-47s) had not even the most basic toilet facilities provided to them. Nor a place to sleep..they were basically given less consideration than dogs used to guard residences. And this was in a top priority assignment, remember...In the 1962 war, according to one of my teachers, policemen from Kerala, who did not evenhave footwear, were sent up to the Himalayas with their 0.303 rifles. This is where the elephant-shooting story came from, incidentally..The whole institution of the Indian Police needs revamping. Every time this system comes into contact with the practices or expectations of people with any sort of modern expectations, the contact is shocking. Most of the Amnesty International troubles that India encountered in the 1990s were due to this. The ISRO spy case was another disaster...and the list goes on and on and on. Basically this is the mismatch between a free democratic society, and a law-enforcement system based on British colonial tyrannical practices. In the days of the British, it was well understood that Britons arrested in India would be given treatment worthy of "gentlefolk" while Indians were treated as garbage. This set-up continued. No one seems to have taught India's police that the citizens of India are their employers. Sachin: about the Snake Park foul-up - yes, you are right. But the photos of the dead/dying animals came much after 2 days. They kept those poor creatures tied in those gunny bags for several days, if not weeks. Blaming the courts does not solve the basic problem that the police should have shown basic human sense. In that incident, I would very much have liked to tie the Inspector, DSP, etc. in gunny bags and leave THEM in corners of the Police Station without air or water for a few days and seen how they liked it.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 16 Jul 2001 10:54

Blaming the courts does not solve the basic problem that the police should have shown basic human sense. Though I am not a legal expert, there may have been a contempt of court issue or some similar stuff, which the policemen never wished to encounter. After all, which would you prefer running from one court to another, or being an animal lover and saving the life of animals.Continuing with the other topics. I feel we Indians as a whole, like to use every chance to prove others that they are better off. This starts from the CM right down to the local constable. For CM treating his gunmen, and ever other police officers and guards like dogs are a prestige issue (after all he represents the people, and so...) . For Police officers, it is their god given right to scold/thrash civilians, just because they are the law-enforcers. So the problem for people illtreating the others (based on situations, and ranks, and social status), I feel is not only in the police force, but is there through out the country. ------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------

Sujit · Post by **Sujit** » 25 Jul 2001 02:40

The games (deadly) police play ...<A HREF="http://www.thestatesman.net/page.supp.p ... wn&theme=A" TARGET=_blank>Presumption isn’t proof</A>

Joeqp · Post by **Joeqp** » 25 Jul 2001 18:18

Originally posted by shim george: > A constable's avg. pay comes up to Rs.60,000/- p.a. Police men..... Please tell me that is a month's salay. That is terrible. If it is theyearly salary hopefully it was tax deducted. Maybe the police should put it out there the, fustrations of their life. Even the COAS does not get paid Rs 60K/month. Sorry to jump in so late

but you have to look at the history of the Indian police force to understand the current ills. The Britishers deliberately paid the cops too little money, so that they would become more corrupt, and hence more malleable. Second, under the British the Indian police forces were a sort of an "occupation army"; their job was to keep the locals down and suppress them. Unfortunately, the cops seem to have taken this art to a higher level.What we need is some bold experiments. For example: divide the police force in two parts. One, the local police (or city police) should be at the district level. The head of this force (thanedar, or sheriff) should be elected for a fixed (5 year?) term. All the cops who have daily interaction with the citizens come under him. And he should have the right to fire anyone under him. At the state level, you need some state police for inter-district crime, and to provide "muscle" to the district cops in emergencies.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 25 Jul 2001 19:07

Manavendra Regarding the policy of the British regarding the use of Indian police man, you have scored a valid point. But if you check up history, you may also find out that they also had some of the most able and smart men in the ranks (The story goes that the fingerprinting and its usage was first discovered by a Bengali PSI).In most of the states the police is organised as to provide "muscle", and maintain the L&O. The Local Police (i.e district level police), at times of emergencies would be assisted by the Armed Reserve Police, who will be camped all across the state.Unlike the US system, here we do not have town ship police, under the chief. We have the district police under a Supdt (eq. Sheriff). The district police will do policing of small towns, the state roads, the villages etc. Cities do have commissioner of police, but again it is like treating a city as a Police district. ------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> ------------------------- [This message has been edited by sachin (edited 26-07-2001).]

Sujit · Post by **Sujit** » 05 Aug 2001 14:40

<A HREF="http://www.ndtv.com/topstories/showtops ... us&id=7203" TARGET=_blank>TN police transfer row gets state CMs anxious</A>Excerpts:Constitutional experts agree that the matter needs to be settled amicably otherwise it could set the wrong precedent. “If the states concede to the Centre to pull out police officers from the states, this would be an extremely bad precedent. It is necessary to point out that policing is a state subject," said Rajeev Dhawan, a senior advocate at the Supreme Court.However, the BJP denies that this controversy will affect Centre-state relations and has defended the Centre's order. “In making this demand, the Centre has not been incorrect. The Tamil Nadu government does not want to transfer the police officers and is trying to protect them after they misbehaved with the DMK leaders including a Union Minister," said BJP Vice-President JP Mathur.This drama will be carried out from time to time, from here to eternity. The police force has been toyed with by local politicians all over India. So much so, that to an average citizen, maintenance of law and order is a farce which is utterly meaningless. This charrade has gone so far that we single out Bihar for laughs. The question which still remains unanswered is: How come things have come to such a passe? Why is there an absence of law and order so significant in its contrast amongst the states? If an M.P can be killed with impunity at her official residence, so close to the Parliament, where does an average citizen stand with respect to safety of his/her life? [This message has been edited by Sujit Sanyal (edited 05-08-2001).]

Nikhil Shah · Post by **Nikhil Shah** » 06 Aug 2001 23:22

Should Policing be privatized or corporatized? This suggestion is merely for basic policing and just thinking out loud. Lets take the first option:The police today can only do what the law allows them to do so why not let multiple agencies compete for it? Their performance will be evaluated on parameters set by the law and civic bodies. If they don't do a good job, kick them out. Get someone else to do it. Wasn't robocop based on this

The second option:Say the police department is corporatized (still a GoI undertaking), it would enable them to raize funds and modernize for example. By putting more civil bodies on the board, they will be subject to greater scrutiny.Obviously, I would prefer the second option. If the police wants to raize money than I got no beaf with it.[This message has been edited by Nikhil Shah (edited 06-08-2001).]

Sujit · Post by **Sujit** » 07 Aug 2001 13:27

Should Policing be privatized or corporatized?This idea may not be practical to implement. There are a lot of decisions the police has to take which is inter-twined with the govt. policies which are (more often than not) ad hoc in nature, adopted on a day-to-day basis. Maybe that is why the world is yet to venture on these lines. In India, where everything, including the lines of law, are at best gray, laying down the boundaries for private policing is next to impossible.Another observation I have in regards to the police force ... of late, from Rajiv Gandhi administration onwards, the force is used as an instrument to create islands of protected species - the politicians and their sidekicks. Instead of deploying the police to search and destroy the criminal elements, they are deployed as bodyguards for all those that matter in our "democracy". With every threat, more police is deployed as personal bodyguards; so much so, that I suspect the creme of the crop is skimmed off the regular force.I find the creation of private safe heavens for every topi-wallah both hilarious and self defeating. First, there is a limit to such deployments. This "secret service" being a status symbol, any big-mouth in the govt. has to have one. The govt. happily obliges for a quid pro quo in political terms. With increase in such deployments, soon there would be no cop on the streets. Consider this in the light of the fact that the force never misses an opportunity to tell the citizens that it has the lowest police-to-population ratio in the world (I can't attest to the authenticity of this claim, maybe Sachin can shed some light). What I really find amusing is that it doesn't stike our lilly white netas that with each such assignment of private police force, they are admitting that the state of law and order in India has gone down the tube. I can understand providing sepcial forces for the VVIPs, like President, PM etc. etc. But nowdays, everybody who gets elected is a VVIP. There is inherent mockery in the metamorphosis of the definition of VVIP.I would hazard a guess that it would be far cheaper for the exchequer to get the force to function independently on good police work. To be out on street patrol and keeping an ear to the ground. The sten gun totting khakis in a pill-box in front of a neta's residence, does little to bring security for the masses. Going by the current perverse logic of deployment, I am not sure whether the pot-bellied "sleuths" know which end of the weapon to use for loading the ammo.Wah sircar, wah!

Sujit · Post by **Sujit** » 07 Aug 2001 13:33

Sachin, maybe you should change the title of the topic to "Police - again and again!", on lines of baar baar, laga taar ..., apologies to the detergent maker.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 07 Aug 2001 13:38

Yes we have a very bad figure for police-to-public ratio. With this we have to take into consideration, that India's population is huge, and maintaining a police force based on this figure would bring the state to its knees. Maintaining a Police Force has always been the biggest trouble for the govts.Privatising every thing is not a solution. The netas will still find a way even if the force is privatised. All we require for a better police force is to convince these govt. netas that the police should be on the road protecting the citizens and NOT the netas.------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> ------------------------- [This message has been edited by sachin (edited 07-08-2001).]

Sujit · Post by **Sujit** » 07 Aug 2001 22:17

Given the force's proclivity towards bribery and playing the political footsie, does anybody think the current crop can EVER revert back to the original reason for them being in existence in the first place? Even if their payscales/benefits are improved? Can any kindly soul please educate me on the quality of the force vis-a-vis other countries of similar size and economic status? What is the IQ of an average policeman? What is the general education level of the khaki? Is police schooling mandatory for all recruits? Is the force taught the basic tenets of law and their application? Do the recruits have to take courses in ethics in police schools?

Sujit · Post by **Sujit** » 08 Aug 2001 06:35

Just what I was saying ...<A HREF="http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.p ... ia&theme=A" TARGET=_blank>Law cannot curb criminalisation of politics, says Advani </A>Excerpts:Mr Advani also rejected members’ demand for security cover in the wake of Phoolan Devi’s killing. He said Delhi police had 58,000 security personnel out of which 10,000 were engaged in VIP security.“As home minister I cannot allow this situation to continue. I would not be doing justice with one crore people living in Delhi when only 48,000 security personnel are left to protect them...”

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Aug 2001 10:34

Sujit You have a valid question, as to whether better pay scales would change the cops attitude to bribery. I feel, with a better pay scale and perks, and a stringent punishment scheme it would be possible to change the behaviour of the force. I have found that many young policemen do feel bad that they are accepting bribe. The avg. education for a police constable in many parts of India is 10th Std. pass. For Inspectors and above it is Graduate Degree. In places like Kerala where educational level is higher, 99% of the constables are Graduates. Also there are a few Ph.D and LLBs too. I don't know what exactly is a Police School. But every police recruit has to undergo 9 months training at the Police Training Battalions. They study basic tenets of law, and also human rights. ------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------

Sujit · Post by **Sujit** » 08 Aug 2001 22:36

Sachin:The clarification first … I meant the Police Training School I had seen in Kolkata.It is definitely a little a relieving for me to know that at least some in the khaki force feel squeamish accepting bribes. The “10th Std. Pass” is the sorry part. I take it “pass” means been there, BUT not done that … was in 10th Std. but did not appear the public examination, right? The force, which is assigned the complex task of maintaining law and order, is delegated to the hands of “10th Std. pass”. I doubt if there is any other similar organization run by similar type of personnel. You can of course, point out the wonderful world of politics, where the education level of those khopris are even more alarming – few of them have seen the insides of “10th Std.”

… and the are running the country … God have mercy!Another thing I find very annoying is that the khakis are always “stationed”, meaning rooted fixed to one shady spot – inside their thana. Aren’t they supposed to be out on the streets where the action is? Or do they expect the criminals to pop in on them so that the khakis can THEN do what their job demands of them? Silly Willy me … those bara babus will have to be confined within the secure walls of the thanas because that is where it will be convenient for them to collect hafta from the multifarious sections of the society. By the way, would you know what exactly is the duty and responsibility of the Officer-in-Charge?I have repeatedly come across complaints that the thanedaars refuse to accept written complaints. If one was to lodge a “diary” which the khakis find unpalatable, they simply shoo away the complainant. That’s very audacious of them. What recourse does the public have in such circumstances? On this count, what is your opinion of strategically placing surveillance cameras inside thanas? Then making the film a public document, accessible freely by the media and public? For that matter, are the “diaries” lodged as complaints with the police, available in the public domain? If not, who/how does one know whether proper follow-up was undertaken?The police-criminal nexus is legendary. This is common knowledge all over India. The politicians can’t/won’t do anything about it because they use both the criminals and police to “solve” their own problems. Your suggestion of punishment for the cops is interesting to read. Please, I am curious as to what you have in mind. The only punishment I know is a “transfer”. I would bet that the “transfer” lasts only for a couple of months, followed by a re-transfer. Who keeps track? Interestingly, I don’t come across cases where the khakis are demoted or fired. Put behind bars? Ah… you’ve got to be kidding.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 09 Aug 2001 11:06

Sujit, By 10th pass I meant the chap has successfully completed the 10th Std. and the State level examination. Another point regarding the basic qualification is that, in many states nobody with a graduate degree have the inclination to join the force as a constable.In states like Kerala where a Govt. job is a luxury (since private industries dont work out well), even post graudate degree holders join the force as constables. Regarding cops holed up in Thaanas. Under every police station limits there are places where cops are routinely posted (like Traffic points, busy junctions etc.). The others remain inside the station. Also note that if every single cop is sent on foot patrol it is difficult to muster them in case of an emergency. Indian policemen do not have the luxuries like a jeep for every two cops, and walkie talkies. If it is felt that they remain in stations just to collect bribes, I can very clearly say that the police station is a place where the least amount of bribe is paid

There are umpteen number of places/ways to collect bribes, if one person really wants it.The SHO (Station House Officer) is responsible for every incident which happens inside the station, and under its limits. He has to keep track of the inmates inside the lockup, the duty roster of the cops, routine patrolling of the area, and also investigate cases. Technically speaking he is to be on 24 hours duty.When a complaint has been lodged, it has to be noted in the "General Diary". Why most of the officers don't make entries in the diary is that it becomes a record. And after lodging a complaint, the petitioner can use some dirty politician to put the pressure on cops. In many cases the complainant and his supporters do have a belief that theirs is the only genuine complaint, and it will get solved very soon. Policing is a job, in which you cannot predict results and achieve them like a mathematic formula. In some cases, I found that the police investigated the case (unofficially), found out the culprit and then asked the complainant to register a formal complaint. By Punishment I meant stricter ones like dismissal from service. There have been cases in which the officer was demoted, and fired (one chap lost his job after the Mumbai riots). ------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------

Sujit · Post by **Sujit** » 16 Aug 2001 00:23

An editorial perspective ...<A HREF="http://www.thestatesman.net/page.editor ... al&theme=A" TARGET=_blank> POLICE MUST NOT OBEY ILLEGAL ORDERS</A>Excerpts: THE manner of the arrest of Karunanidhi and two union ministers is a profound commentary on the criminal justice system obtaining in the country and puts the police, the government and even the judiciary in the dock. Since those arrested are eminent political figures people could see the brutality of the police on the little screen and this is a pointer to the treatment being meted out to the dumb millions. … … Though the CrPC empowers the police to arrest a person without a warrant of arrest from the court in case of a cognisable offence, the Supreme Court has clearly ruled that a person will not be arrested simply because there is an allegation against him. A prime facie case must be made out after preliminary investigation before the arrest. … … The “police in embryo” acted as the agent of the ruler in ancient and medieval periods as sovereignty was reposed in the king who dispensed justice also. But modern nation-states with a democratic set-up are different as sovereignty lies with the people and instead of the will of the monarch the rule of law prevails. Now the police is no longer the agent of the ruler and has to act strictly in accordance with the provisions of law.The police manual categorically lays down that illegal orders are not to be obeyed. In 1974 when JP called upon the police and the army not to carry out unjust and illegal orders, his statement was unscrupulously misinterpreted to mean that he had committed the “unforgivable sin” of spreading disaffection in the army and police force. … … Instances are galore when soldiers obeying illegal orders have come to grief. … … After World War II, the war crimes tribunals gave death or life sentences to several German and Japanese personnel for crimes against humanity. The plea that they only obeyed the orders of their superiors did not exculpate them of their crime as the court held those orders illegal … … One of the guidelines [of the Supreme Court] is that the arrested should, if he so requests, be examined at the time of his arrest and major and minor injuries, if any present on his/her body must be recorded at that time. Another requirement is that the arrestee should also be subjected to a medical examination every 48 hours. … … Another thing to be inquired into is the arrest of an old leader in the dead of the night. Though arrest at night is not illegal it is clearly laid down that it should be avoided. … … The police must not only act impartially but also give the impression of doing so. If the machinery for enforcing law is not impartial it will weaken the state.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 16 Aug 2001 10:34

Another thing to be inquired into is the arrest of an old leader in the dead of the night. Though arrest at night is not illegal it is clearly laid down that it should be avoided. There is a Section in the CrPC which enables the police to arrest political bigwigs at the wee hours of the night. This is to avoid masses coming out onto streets and obstructing the arrest. Jayalalitha had mentioned this section in one of her press meets.The opinion that the police should not follow unjust orders from superiors has been made by many officers. The best example was the IG of Police declaring this to the Kerala Police, after the famous Kannur/Koothuparambu police shoot out. In many situation, the police men will not be in a position to find what is just and what is not. And such orders did have a very good effect on the morale of the Kerala Police. The police men were hesitant in doing even their normal duties. Let the people who cry about unjust orders, first publish a rule (gained from past experiences), what can be termed as a unjustified order. ------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------

Sujit · Post by **Sujit** » 16 Aug 2001 22:37

Let the people who cry about unjust orders, first publish a rule (gained from past experiences), what can be termed as a unjustified order.For starters, how about banning the shooting of unarmed (no weapons, lathis, brickbats, Molotov cocktails etc.) suspects - irrespective of their numbers. Shooting simply because there was a "crowd" is highly unacceptable.The proclamation that illegal orders can and should be ignored by the ranks, though laudable, is fraught with ambiguities. One doesn’t need to be Einstein to understand that for the law enforcement machinery, the rules and orders should be laid out in clear-cut black and white. In the rare cases where they cannot be, an attempt should be made to lay out the guidelines as exhaustively as possible – better still, keep the guideline document as a “living document” i.e., not frozen but in a modifiable state, modifiable with experience.Now, how about those that issue the illegal orders? Let’s talk about them. Ah … that’s a difficult proposition. The waxed fat scums are above and beyond the law … pity the policemen. This however does not imply that the force should be characterless. To impart character, those at the top (force included) MUST set an example.[This message has been edited by Sujit Sanyal (edited 16-08-2001).]

Joeqp · Post by **Joeqp** » 17 Aug 2001 07:23

Originally posted by sachin: In many situation, the police men will not be in a position to find what is just and what is not.Instead of asking all policemen to not follow unjust orders, hold everyone above the rank of, say, DySP, to this standard. I.e., don't let the senior officers take cover behind the "I was following orders" excuse. After years of service, they should know better than to follow illegal orders!

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 17 Aug 2001 10:32

What is an Illegal Order? I am asking this question, because in Policing people, some things are declared illegal after the deed is actually done.I am once again talking about the Kannur/Koothuparamba shooting. Around 200 Left party activists are blocking the way of a democratically elected minister (the Left Front had declared a boycott against him). They are also trying to cause body injuries to the minister. The ASP and ADM order a fire. It is done, 5 of the activists die. But then the ministry is changed and the victimisation began. Here the deed is already done, and then the new left ministry (and some police stooges of theirs) was trying to say that the left party activists were holding a peaceful protest and stuff like that.In Police business many decisions have to be taken on split seconds taking the ground realities into consideration. Most of them can be later challenged in the court room, where every thing can be analysed in detail. Regarding the suggestion that un-armed crowd need not be fired upon, it is a good suggestion. But could you also mention any incidents where the Police has fired into an un-armed crowd? This is just for my info sake.------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------

Joeqp · Post by **Joeqp** » 17 Aug 2001 10:39

Originally posted by sachin: The ASP and ADM order a fire. It is done, 5 of the activists die.What I can never understand is, if the order to fire is given, why not fire into the air (vertically, that is)? The sound of the gunshots will be enough to scare the preconditioned Indian public. Why fire into the people?Let me ask this: would we have tolerated such firings upon the crowds in the British days? Conversely, did the Britishers ever fire so often on Indians as the Indian police today do?I'm just wondering; no offense implied here.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 17 Aug 2001 11:24

In the incident which I was mentioning, the crowd was quite menacing, and was not prepared to go back even if the police fired upon in the air. They had very clear cut intentions to man-handle the minister and his escort party.Firing in the air, frankly speaking I do not understand the logic behind it

I think we Indians have become more intelligent to know that if a police man points a rifle at us, it means that the next move will be to fire. I feel that the Indian rioters (esp. in the Kannur incident) did have a feeling that the Police will take its own sweet time to do the firing straight into the crowd. Like calling the bugle, announcing that a firing will take place, then shoot thrice in the air (Remember all this while, the minister and the police are at the mercy of the crowd). I may sound like a Gen. Dyer, but I feel the police should do away with age old customs like firing thrice to the air etc. etc. The public should be convinced through media and other channels, that if they try to harass some other people using brute force, then they can get a bullet injury any time.------------------ Sachin P.K ------------------------- <A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A> -------------------------