Police Affairs in India

Sunil
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Police Affairs in India

Postby Sunil » 01 Dec 2000 02:18

This is a continuation of the earlier thread on police affairs in India.

IB Director Shyamal Dutta speaks at 32nd
All India Police Science Congress.
(meeting has K. Padamanabhiah also).
http://www.timesofindia.com/today/30indu21.htm

Dutta said that the country despite its enormous size has been policed by about 12000 police stations."Every 100 square km area in the country is policed by 44 cops only," he added.

Speaking on the occasion, police reforms committee chairman K Padamanabhiah said that there is a need to set up police training advisory council to assess functioning of cops. (PTI)

J&K Police get high praise from outgoing chief.
http://www.timesofindia.com/today/30indu18.htm

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Narayan_L » 01 Dec 2000 02:31

Sunil:<P>Did we lose the original thread initiated by Imtiaz on Local Govts., policing, etc during the recent outage that appears to have wiped out a lot of other threads? I hope someone archived that thread. Imtiaz or our police specialist - Sachin, have a back-up?

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 01 Dec 2000 12:30

That thread is gone Image. Lets make sure that that does not happen to this thread too. So friends all police topics can be discussed on this thread.<P>AFAIK, the Padmanabhiah commission report is still not impelemented. I don't have much hopes that it will be implemented too. If there is any important govt. department which is neglected, it is the Police Force in India.<P>Every Home minister (centre and state) keeps on yapping about the police force and its colonial mentality, and that's it. The police force I should say functioned well with the British. It is our home made netas which made the force a rotten apple.<P>IPS Officers recieve a good training in law and forensic science. But in each police district we find just 2-3 IPS officers (2 ASP and 1 SP). The rest of the force is state recruited officers, who get the very basic training (most of its drill and parade). <P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sunil » 10 Dec 2000 00:37

Hi Salim,<P>> I reckon that if Datta is correct, then that is the reason why the Army does thier job. Further, the Police is top heavy with so many IGs and DGs, while the army is not. If the police cant do their job, why have so many blokes on top. Lets get more guys at the bottom and middle level who really do the work. <P>Not quite, the presence of a large number of IGs etc.. has little to do with it. <P>The use of the army to `aid civil power' is part of a tradition that goes back a really long while. So the civil administration almost as a reflex action calls out the army. <P>Any of the following serve as justifications for the same. <P>1) the police forces in india are illequipped to deal with the problem, by that i mean they do not have the arms, vehicles, communications, and command infrastructure to deal with the particular criminal phenomenon. Such is the case in punjab, kashmir and the north-east. <P>2) The police forces are staffed by members who have a direct link to the land, who have ties to local communities. This in india means the police are prone to infiltration by ethnic, religious and casteist elements. (Take for example the case of the defections in the bombay police during the post ayodhya riots, or the TN police revolt in Coimbatore, and much earlier revolt in the UPP-PAC). In such a situation, an army unit with suitable class and caste composition is deployed. (for example ITBP and SFF units are deployed in communally sensitive districts in UP, or Sikh and Muslim companies are deployed in quelling hindu v/s neo-buddhist violence, or as is the case in the North-east, hindi speaking troops are used to keep the peace between the various linguistic groups). <P><BR>> Can someone give the pyramidical structure of ranks and Nos of a police organisation?<P>we had one put up in the last thread. I think i have it archived on a stand alone HD somewhere it will take me a while to get it so hang in there. <P><BR>We must also bear in mind that strictly speaking, the army in most cases carries out area dominance operations, it is NOT burdened with the task of law enforcement or criminal investigation, this falls to the police, who by that time are too demoralised to anything. <P>The influence of the top brass is crucial in that it takes police top brass like KPS Gill, and Jagat to re-organise the police departments and still assert the role for the police in places where the army is deployed. It is here that units like the Punjab Armed Police and the J&K SOG become relevant. <P>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 10 Dec 2000 19:25

Since the earlier thread on Police is not existing, I will list the ranks structure once again:-<BR>1. Director General of Police (DGP)<BR>2. Addl.Director General of Police (ADGP)<BR>3. Inspector General of Police (IG)<BR>4. Deputy Inspector General of Police (DIG)<BR>5. Supdt. of Police (SP)<BR>6. Deputy Supdt. of Police (Dy.SP)<BR>The above mentioned officer are all from IPS selection. Dy.SP can be a state officer, but Asst. Suptd. of Police (ASP) is an IPS chap.<P>7. Police Inspector (PI)<BR>8. Sub-Inspector (SI)<BR>9. Asst. Sub-Inspector (ASI)<BR>10. Head Constable<BR>11. Constable.<P>When it comes to replacement of Army with the Police, Army can substitute the Police in one way, riot control. In day-to-day affairs, the Army won't be of much help because they are not trained to do it. Especially in the case of Intelligence gathering, Army men will find it very difficult. Like for example, do you think a Sardar NCO in the Army will get any much information out of a Keralite.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sunil » 11 Dec 2000 01:27

Hi,<P>the army does a fair bit of intelligence gathering. The DMI usually runs something called an Internal Security Group (ISG).<BR>Some experts estimate that there are approximately 3 ISGs in operation in Kashmir and atleast 2 in the NE. <P>Intelligence is also collected through interrogation of suspects, this work in places like Kashmir proceeds at the Joint Intelligence Centres where three of four teams from various intelligence agencies go over a suspect. <P>Another point to note is that during riot control activity, the army column usually has a set of police guides/monitors attached, these policemen help the column navigate and make up for the lack of local knowledge by the column commander. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 10-12-2000).]

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 11 Dec 2000 10:46

Thanks for the info about the ISGs. But, when it comes to day-to-day Intelligence gathering, do you feel that these agencies will be a good replacement for the State SB CID?<P>And even in riot-control, the Army does require the help of some local police men, who know the area quite well. So we may say, that Army all-in-itself may not be able to do much (in law and order matters).<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 11 Dec 2000 19:02

On what issue did Mendonca, file a case against the MH Govt? <BR>BTW, the Kerala Police have started using a type of grenade, which can injure a person heavily. This was done, after the recent killings and counter killings in the North Kerala district of Kannur. And it seemed to be a pretty effective weapon. Better than the vintage .303 I should say.<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sunil » 11 Dec 2000 23:19

Hi sachin,<P>> But, when it comes to day-to-day Intelligence gathering, do you feel that these agencies will be a good replacement for the State SB CID?<P>No, i recall correctly the first ISG went into kashmir sometime in 1993-4 and it was a year before they were fully in the picture. <BR>The SB-CID people have been on the ground for donkeys years.. the ISG will never measure up to them. But the ISG will have greater discipline and will not encumbered with local loyalties, having no ties to the communities at hand.. it will have an almost free hand. <P>Kapil,<P>Wow!!.. <BR>What is the case by Ronnie Mendonca about? <P>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 12 Dec 2000 11:14

But is not correct that most of our Intelligence Agencies have been used by politicians to fulfill their own agenda. The centre have always used RAW, IB etc. against their opponents. The SB CID's main job was always to find out what is opinion about the ruling govt.<P>Mumbai Police seemed to be less politicised when compared to other police forces. I have heard many Mumbai citizens say that their police force actually is quite good and responsible.<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sunil » 13 Dec 2000 02:51

Hi, <P>a few quick answers... have a lot of work on my head today.. <P>> Political intelligence.<P>In the cities, the task of political intelligence falls to the Intelligence Spl. Wing, which is a part of the SB-CID which operates under the Commissioner himself. In addition the Joint Commissioner (SB-CID) is also in the know about these things. At the state level there is an IG(Intelligence) who has to keep close relations with the Chief Minister. The appointment to this post are handled very carefully by the CM and only someone whose loyalty is not an issue makes it there, the state DGP is also in the know here. <P>At the Central level, it is alleged that the IB maintains a unit called Special Enquiry and Surveillance (SES). This is headed up by an dy. director(IB) and is staffed almost entirely by JCIOs and DCIOs (Ranks of Inspector and Asst. Commissioner). They are responsible for discreet political surveillance on the activities of parliament and maintain infiltrations in the Parl. Prot. Group and the Watch and Ward Staff. <BR>This unit reports directly to Dir. (IB). <P>I am not aware of any specifically designated unit within the R&AW that does this, but every account i have read about the R&AW speaks about the politicisation of the R&AW by Indira Gandhi. (The `Kao-Gandhi link'). <P>Most of these agencies SB-CID, IB, R&AW maintain divisions to track Far Left and Far Right activities, and for quite a while i recall hearing that 50% of the attendance at most Mahasabha and SIMI meetings would be plainclothes policemen of some agency or the other. <P>Vlad, <P>The selection to the R&AW takes place after you give the UPSC exam and clear it, candidates are screened without their knowledge and then a spot offer is made. Those that accept are asked to renounce their parent service and then subsequently initiated into a special cadre (RAS). <P>In the case of the IB or the DSPE(CBI), you have to pass the IPS and then sometime after that you can ask for a transfer to the agency that you have in mind. In some cases people are actually initially posted to the SIB(subsidiary intelligence bureau) in the state cadre of your choice and then moved to the centre. <P><BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 13 Dec 2000 11:03

The SB-CID closely monitors all political meetings. I remember my college staff (during college days) mentioning that there were some police men who were present in the campus. Their work was to monitor the leaders of the various student unions.<P>I have a personal copy of the "Bullet for Bullet" by J.Ribeiro. In that he also mentions how he managed to bring down the don of yester-year, Varadaraja Mudaliar.<P>The post of IG Intelligence (in my state it is an ADGP Intelligence), is also a coveted post and the Home Minister tries to get in a stooge of his choice. By and large, I feel most of the other ranks (SP and below), are very less politcised, and they have been doing their work more-or-less correctly.<P>IB, I feel also make special recruitments from the SB of the local police forces. Infact the recruitment procedure for our intelligence agencies itself is a big secret. I even don't know how the men to the SB-CID is picked up and trained.<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 25 Dec 2000 12:45

up..

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sujit » 26 Dec 2000 09:27

I have a question for the police-gurus ... If the President can be the supreme commander of the defense forces, what is wrong with the idea of making the Governor the commander-in-chief of the police forces for the state?<P>My appreciation of the command and control structure of the defense forces is that though for all practical purposes, the PM and the cabinet take the decisions pertaining to the defense of the country and are the real bosses of the service chiefs, the President can, if the situation so demands, step in and take over the reigns. Maybe the idea is that the President being a politically neutral person (at least theoretically) should have the reigns of this vital organ of the country in his/her hands.<P>Now about policing. I understand that the law and order situation of a state is primarily the state's business. Law and order is enforced through the police. My question is what if the political process of a state deteriorates to such an extent that there is no semblance of law and order? It has happened to many states before, so what recourse will the people of that state have in such circumstances? How would their fundamental rights be then guaranteed? Consider this question in the light that in many cases, the politicians themselves are the main culprits. For the sake of their survival, they rear and encourage criminals.<P>I was thinking that if the Governor of a state is made the supreme commander of all the police in the state, he, presumably impartial, would have the Constitutional right to step in when the politicians are found ineffective and incompetent. The federal govt. then does not have to resort to the extreme political gamesmanship of dissolving a state assembly etc. just to tackle the criminal elements of a state. Since the Governor is the President’s representative in a state, the president would then become the supreme commander of defense as well as the law and order enforcement machinery. What do the members think?<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 26 Dec 2000 14:01

Sujit<BR>Actually the suggestion of making the Governer te head of the Police force seems a logical thing to do. But no state will allow that to be done. The Home portfolio is supposed to be the most important one, since it controls the Police force.<P>Only thing a common citizen can do is to move a PIL in the court. The state govt. may be forced to obey the court orders and ask the police to interfere. The police force in our country has been ruined to core. Only thing which gives solace to me is that in majority of the cases where there is no political pressure, the cops have done some justice.<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sunil » 27 Dec 2000 12:44

Hunting gangsters in Delhi and UP... <BR> <A HREF="http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/271200/detcit02.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/271200/detcit02.asp</A> <P>Dirty Harry of DP does it again <BR>HT Correspondent <BR>(New Delhi, December 26) <P>WITH TODAY'S early morning encounter, the current Dirty Harry of the Delhi Police notches another kill to his credit. The Assistant Commissioner of Police, Rajbir Singh, who has risen through the ranks with an out of turn promotion, has already been at the centre of four much-talked-about encounters this year. <P>Earlier this year, ACP Rajbir's team put an end to the long-running feud of Mitrau village. More than 20 people had been killed in the feud with almost all the adult male members of the families of Kapil Gehlaut and Anoop being eliminated. <P>An inspector in the ACP's team, Mohan Chand Sharma, was reportedly approached by Kapil's uncle, Jeetu, to seek him help in getting their rival, Anoop, arrested. However, instead of acting on this information, the police killed Jeetu and another person in an encounter in Jharoda village. <P>Though several bullets were reportedly fired by Jeetu, no police personnel was injured. The police claimed that the standing crops had offered a safe hiding place for Jeetu. But the fact was that the crop had just been harvested. <P>Soon after, Kapil was also gunned down near Meerut. Though there was an exchange of fire between the police and the Kapil for about 10 minutes on the terrace of the house where Kapil was killed, the people living inside did not hear anything. <P>While there are several other important kills to the credit of ACP Rajbir, there have also been allegations of a nexus between his team members and known criminals. Recently, a businessman was kidnapped by members of the Dileep Gang and it was learnt that one of the weapons used in the crime, a sten-gun, had been given to them by a head constable of Rajbir's team. <P>The head constable has since been suspended and is absconding. This controversial head constable's name had cropped up during the sensational escape by desperate criminal Bunty Gujjar from police custody earlier this year. <P>Bunty was later killed by the same Assistant Commissioner of Police and his team in an bloody encounter at Lawrence Road. During this encounter Bunty is reported to have secured himself a vantage position, armed with AK-56, on the terrace of the house that the police stormed. <P>Yet not a single member of the police team suffered a single gunshot injury. ACP Rajbir, who joined the Delhi Police as a sub inspector in 1982, was promoted to the rank of inspector in 1994. Within a year, he was promoted out of turn to the rank of ACP following two encounters. <P>He had been part of the team which killed Rajbir Ramala and Inderpal Dhaka at Adchini and Ranpal Gujjar and Naresh at Faridabad. All these gangsters were part of the flourishing criminal gangs from Western Uttar Pradesh. <P><BR>and maharasthtra attempts a solution to the Naxal problems of Chandrapur and Gadchiroli. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/271200/dtLSTA19.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/271200/dtLSTA19.asp</A> <P>Maha govt considering surrender policy for Naxals: Thakre <BR>PTI <BR>(Nagpur, December 26) <P>MAHARASHTRA MINISTER of State for Home Manikrao Thakre on Tuesday said state government was formulating a comprehensive 'surrender policy for naxalites'. <P>It was also seriously thinking to hold 'janata durbars' on regular basis at taluka-level to instill confidence among the people residing in naxal infested areas. <P>A joint meeting of the top police and revenue officials would be convened in January 2001 in Mumbai to give a proper shape to the proposed policy, he told reporters here. <P>Besides evolving ways and means to strengthen the police-public relations, officials from naxal-infested districts would be participating in the meeting to suggest measures to improve image of police so as to build confidence among the people in the disturbed areas, he said. <P>"Building confidence among the people is our top priority," Thakre added. <P><BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sujit » 28 Dec 2000 02:30

<I>Actually the suggestion of making the Governer te head of the Police force seems a logical thing to do. But no state will allow that to be done.</I><P>Sachin, agree with you. Just curious if you, or any other members, have any suggestion as to how to get the police force out of the clutches of the local politicians and inject a certain dosage of impartiality. To be impartial, it is imperative that the force be provided a safe harbour to operate from and be immune to political pressures. Keeping police as puppets in the hands of CMs is really making a mockery of law enforcement. If this state perpetuates too long, no self-respecting person will join the force (as has happened with our political system). Since nature abhors vacuum, you will find people with a variety of shady background making up the bulk of the police force in our country. <P>Another alternative to ensuring citizen safeguards could be raising a federal police force that would have the right to intervene in the state’s law and order process without the state’s approval; much like the FBI in US. This federal force could be headed by the President, and their deployment in the state decided/monitored by the Governor. Unless the police forces in India can display their neutrality and willingness to maintain law and order on an even hand, public’s respect for them will remain where they are – in the gutters.<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 28 Dec 2000 11:38

It is a very well known fact that the Indian police already has become much corrupted. With all due respects to police men, I should say that a very strict person or body should take control of it, for some period of time.<P>In many places, I have seen the people detest the police profession. For them it is a slightly better job than that of a politician Image Because of this many shady characters enter this field. It is also the time the other proffessionals and commoners understand, a bad police will ultimately harm the common man himself.<P>I think CBI has the power to get involved in cases without the states consent. Or else, the judiciary is quite capable, and they can force the government to hand over the case to the CBI. Courts are pretty much above these petty politics.<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sunil » 28 Dec 2000 12:08

found this. <A HREF="http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/00oct01/national.htm#7" TARGET=_blank>http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/00oct01/national.htm#7</A> <P>Padmanabhaiah panel for VIP security to only 200 persons<P>From B L Kak <P>NEW DELHI, Sept 30: Former Home Secretary to the Government of India, Mr K Padmanabhaiah, has warned that the functioning of the police across the country will suffer more reverses if the powers-that-be in States and at the Centre fail to prevent what he termed as "unnecessary intervention" by politicians in the functioning of the police.<P>Mr Padmanabhaiah, who headed a committee constituted by the Government to look into the functioning of the police and recommend remedial measures, has highlighted several unpleasant facts on the functioning of the police in India in a 270-page report, just submitted to the Home Minister, Mr LK Advani. <P>The report on police reforms, currently being examined by higher-ups in the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA), contains inter alia devastatingly blunt, uncharitable remarks against certain categories of Indian politicians and "corrupt" police officials. The Padmanabhaih committee has described as "totally against the law" the undue political interference in investigation of crime. <P>The in-depth study by the committee has led it to bring to the fore: The nexus between the power-wielding politician and the corrupt police officials can only take place when there is an obliging policeman willing to do the bidding of the politicians in return for favours in posting or for sharing the booty. <P>Finding number two: In recent year, there has been a brazen interference with the working of the police, brandishing threats of transfers to remote places, or offering inducements of postings on lucrative jobs. <P>Finding number three: A politician tries to influence whether a case should be registered, whether it should be treated as a cognisable offence or a non-cognisable one, if so, what section of law should be applied, whether arrest should be made or should not be made and whether grant of bail should be conceded or opposed. The Padmamabhaiah panel’s report has referred to Uttar Pradesh and pointed out that the power to transfer the investigation of a case to the State CID had been withdrawn from the Police chief and given to the Chief Minister.<P>Mr K Padmanabhaiah is for a change in the attitude and behaviour of the police. He has insisted that political interference affects the functioning of the police. The police, he has been quoted as having said, is always treated "as an extension of the Government’s arm". His loaded question: Why should politicians or the Government interfere in the investigation of a crime?<P>Among the main recommendations of the Padmanbhaiah panel, emphasis is apparently laid on (a) only 200 individuals in the country should receive VIP security at the State’s expense, while others should pay for it; (b) IAS and IPS probationers should work as judicial magistrates for two years; (c) cities with 10 lakh population should have commissionerate system; (d) police establishment board should look after transfers and postings of all officials from SP and above; (e) all police officers should file property returns annually; (f) existing departmental inquiry manual should be replaced by new one and (g) promotion of a deputy superintendent of police should be based on written examination.<P>Equally important recommendations include (a) comprehensive law to deal with terrorism; (b) special task force to deal with organised crime in each State; (c) investigation to be separate from law and order duties; (d) confession made by a criminal to an officer of the rank of SP or above to be made admissible in courts and (e) human rights cell in each State Police Headquarters.<P>The Padmanabhaiah committee report has regretted that about a fourth of nearly 12,000 police stations in India do not have buildings. Believe it or not, it is a fact that some police stations even in India’s national capital, Delhi, are located in tents. And the report has cautioned: "There is no point of talking about modernising police stations with computerisation when basic facilities like furniuture, chairs, tables, drinking water, telephones, typewriters and even stationary do not exist in a large number of police stations".<P>The report has estimated that there is an urgent need for arms worth Rs 1900 crores. These arms include more than 380,000 SLRs, over 154,000 9mm pistols and nearly 6,000 light machine guns (LMGs).<P>Ps. maybe we should keep the HR discussion on the other thread about bengal police. <P>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sunil » 28 Dec 2000 12:27

Have a look at this. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.policeinindia.com/general.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.policeinindia.com/general.htm</A>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 29 Dec 2000 19:26

Well nothing much is said about the Padmanabhiah commission these days. That itself says where the report will land up. The best thing to do, is to give enough publicity to these reports, so that common men understands it and ask for its implementation.<P>Politicians should only have one place in a police station, that is the lock-up. With the bollywood and other public relation ship media portraying the police men as useless, plus the political interference, will make any police man lose his morale. And that will be a very bad situation. A signature of a cop (in a disc. forum) says it all.<BR>No cops...know anarchy Image<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sunil » 30 Dec 2000 11:12

Wow.. now i believe anything..<BR> <A HREF="http://www.berhampurpolice.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.berhampurpolice.com/</A> <P>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Calvin » 01 Jan 2001 13:00

Ravi S<BR>Member posted 26-12-2000 15:26 <BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <A HREF="http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php3?id=6367&type=Pageone&theme=A" TARGET=_blank>http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php3?id=6367&type=Pageone&theme=A</A> <BR>Appeared in today's "The Statesman"<P>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>punnam<BR>Member posted 26-12-2000 16:56 <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>If the same statement were to be issued by Gujarat Chief Minister the English media would attribute all kinds of motives to him. <BR>One such speculation could be, Political commentators here interpret Budha's statements as a signal to attack Mamata's supporters during the runup to assembly elections early next year. <BR>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>Sujit Sanyal<BR>Member posted 26-12-2000 20:44 <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Before you guys take exception to this statement, let me inform you that the criminal elements in Bengal have gone berserk. No, I am not referring to the political party elements; I’m talking about pure dacoits. For the past two months, the level of holdups of banks, businessmen have shot up to unacceptable levels. Even ordinary citizens with collapsible gates for front doors are not safe. A little more than a month back, 20+ armed dacoits were regularly raiding randomly chosen houses/flats in Calcutta, in the small hours of the morning, and looting with impunity. Twice within a fortnight, the dacoits raided the same neighborhood and in the last attempt, killed a teenager because he went to his parents’ aid. <BR>I will also have to point out that the newspaper reports had it that a "very senior" police officer in charge of fighting these dacoits had in fact, a cozy relationship with one of the criminal element’s wife! Such is the character and make up of the law and order machinery. Now back to the CM’s statement (and I’m no fan of his), I like it the way I used to, as a kid, seeing a film hero beat up the bad boys. I am concerned that making sweeping statements about police powers might get some of the corrupt elements in the force use it as an excuse to settle their personal scores. After all, their exists precedents of top police brass hob knobbing with crass criminals and their womenfolk. <P>Finally, there is a lot of uproar about the statement. The CM’s mistake was to publicly give the shoot orders. Isn’t it the police’s duty to shoot when criminals are in the process of committing a crime and wouldn’t obey the officer’s command? What’s wrong with that? Especially when you are confronting a gang of 20+ armed with an assortment of weapons? I say shoot these buggers in the kneecap. That way you haven’t killed them but they will pretty much become immobile the rest of their life. I am not with the HR activists in shedding crocodile tears for armed criminals who commit murder and mayhem, just to prove a point that I am faithful to my cause. I just wish that these dacoits choose one of these activists for a change, and then we would see how they react. <P>I’m sure that the members have crossed paths with these criminal elements sometime or the other. I’ll be honest, I do know a couple of them and have no shame admitting that if I were the O.C of those areas, I’d shoot these buggers like dogs and dump them in the garbage vats for the vultures to feed. Of course, the CM would do well to first clean up his party cadres who indulge in criminal acts, then CLEAN the police, simultaneously pull all stops against these dacoits. Another thing, the CM would also have done great had he started to issue licenses for firearms to law abiding citizens (I’d buy my relatives in Calcutta a 9MM and a double barrel with a box of buck shots ). Instead, he prefers to withhold all the power within the govt. machinery. I say meet force with twice the force.<P>CM under fire for licence to shoot <P><BR>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>sachin<BR>Administrator posted 27-12-2000 02:15 <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>The fact that Police have the right to shoot against armed robbers/dacoits is pretty much well defined in the CrPC and IPC. So you cannot stop a police officer from shooting. But then he has to appear in the court and prove that he did in the best of interests.<BR>Shooting on the legs and knee caps is quite a tedious task I should say. Our police still rely on the .303 rifles. It takes time to take aim with that rifle, and you are shooting at a running target. Revolvers are the best weapon in such cases.<P>Human rights groups in 90% cases consider criminals as "humans" and a species to be protected. They have never raised a cry when ever a police man or soldier is killed. Its better to leave this organisation compalining, and crying.<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR>Sachin's Camp on the Web<BR>-------------------------<P><BR>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>Sujit Sanyal<BR>Member posted 27-12-2000 12:14 <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Sachin, I am with you on the firearms issue. I find it pretty silly for the police to carry rifles (.303) rather than hand guns which are more compact and easy to carry, easily useable, with adequate ammo. Why sacrifice easy use for the capability of engaging a target over long distance? In police work, more often than not, if they need to work a weapon, it would be for close range. Sure they can have a rifle available in their jeeps and "halla gari".<BR>You are right again on the HR nuts. Respect for human rights, I'm all for. But I agree with the CM when he says "human rights" is for "humans" only, not animals. When these criminals can shoot a baby as a revenge for the family not having enough to loot, they are far worse than animals so far as I am concerned. In fact, if ever I find them in front of my car, I wouldn't think twice before running them over.<P>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>Sujit Sanyal<BR>Member posted 28-12-2000 03:27 <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Excerpts:<BR>"Police will not fire on participants of a political or trade union agitation or any democratic movement," the chief minister said, adding that police would have to observe democratic norms.<P>The government, he said, was not in confrontation with the Human Rights Commission and had no intention of belittling its role.<P>Later, speaking to reporters, Mr Sinha, said his party (Congress) would object if police fired on armed criminals.<P><BR>BENGAL MOST DEMOCRATIC, SAYS BUDDHA<P>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>sachin<BR>Administrator posted 29-12-2000 07:45 <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>The Congress leader's single statement, makes every common man realise the truth. They need not expect any justice from the police or any organisations, when such jokers/traitors/anti-national elements are present in any political party.<BR>This bafoon's statement, should be mailed to the congress party authorities.<P> <BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Tanaji » 07 Jan 2001 23:00

Did not want to start a new thread:<P>On a recent visit, I saw quite a few personnel of the police commandos unit set up to deal with organised crime and extortion in Mumbai. These personnel have a different uniform altogether from the Mah. Police: they wear completely black shirts, trousers and boots. The front of the uniform has the usual badges, and a la US police forces style, a brass badge on the chest. And emblazoned on the back in huge yellow letters (similar to the lettering in one day cricket matches) is the word "Commando". They typcially roam in pairs, on a 125cc motorbike. One of them has a Motorola radio, and both carry from what I could make out was a AK-47/56 sub-machine gun. The guys seem fairly fit, with some exceptions having the usual pot-belly. In short, pretty well armed and trained (there was a report on their training some time back).<P>Do these guys go out on patrol duty? It would not make sense... yet I saw them quite a few times on corners.<P>------------------<BR><I>Allakh Niranjan!</I>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 08 Jan 2001 13:36

Even I did see two Police commandos on a bike. But from the way they moved around, I think they were not on duty. Pretty much relaxed, they looked. I feel that these commandos may be positioned in strategic locations around the city.<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 10 Jan 2001 10:36

This thread will be archived soon...<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sujit » 11 Jan 2001 06:12

All over India one sees policemen squatting in <I>chowks</I> and tea stalls wearing a bored look on their faces, almost in a state of transcendental meditation, mind far away from the job on hand of keeping an eye out for trouble and trouble-makers. A typical scene would be something like this – a policeman, unshaved, with a mop of disheveled hair, in shabby clothing, which passes off as an "uniform", leaning on his stick and dozing. If they are not dozing, then they are keeping a weary eye on "collection" – the collector being a junior standing at the intersection. Sometimes, the junior may not even belong to the force, but that’s OK; people who have to pay up, know who these poster boys work for, so no worries. Have you noticed the look on these lorry drivers’ faces when giving out these alms? The jeer and disgust is unmistakable. Sounds pretty much like a scene from <I>Malgudi</I> days right? If only it was as benign as in that tele-film.<P>In my mind, the word police is almost synonymous with "beat". For any police force to be effective, they have to prowl their beat, whether on foot on in their cruisers. Sadly in India, this concept is non-existent. The force has carefully cultivated the habits of their political bosses. Nowadays, you shouldn’t expect them to be out walking the streets to keep them safe. Whatever you may expect of the police has to be workable from their den, else forget it. After all, why should they leave the sanctuary of their police stations? You have all sorts of undesirable elements with hard cash, from petty criminals like pickpockets and pimps, to big game like drug smugglers and racketeers, visiting the police station to pay their respect to the O.C <I>bara babu</I>. Police <I>chowk</I> is where the action is! So if you are worldly wise, the most logical thing for you to do would be to glue your hind cheeks firmly to your <I>sirkari</I> chair in the complete safety of your police station, away from prying eyes of the public and the media. That is exactly what the police has opted to do. <P>If the lowly amongst the force is unlucky enough to be out on the road with public, you would invariably find them under the shade of a vendor stall, quietly enjoying freebie munchies or whatever beverage their official status could pry out. My good ol’ days were spent in local tea stalls and the not-so-upscale bars of Calcutta. I have had the privilege of observing these guys on these stages. I have seen them conduct sugar deals with the local criminals, seen traffic sergeants straightening out one and two rupee notes, while sipping their favourite alcoholic beverages in cheap bars, all the while cursing their luck for having to collect crumpled currency notes. My personal observation is that everytime you find anything unholy and utterly criminal going on in your neighbourhood, if you care to follow it up, the trail would invariably lead to the police in charge of that area. Such is the track record of this bunch.<P>Another thing, which I find very amusing, is the physical condition of the policemen. The foot soldiers are mostly skinny and emaciated. The middle and upper level are fat and pot bellied. Never ever would anybody feel any respect for these policemen given their shabby uniform and their physical shape. The less we say about their common sense and intelligence, the better. The only credit I am willing to give them for their cranial activity is their cunning; cunning to eke out an extra buck from any member of the public who is either hapless or is in way in a compromising situation. <P>Reminds me of the plight of amorous couples in <I>halla garis</I>. All "rounded" up from a particular lover’s park and also from in around a lake in south Calcutta. Needless to say, with the rounded womenfolk facing a kidney revolt during times such as these, the knights are easy prey for juicing. All the while, prostitutes, drug dealers, rapists and murderers are having a good time within yards from the place where these couples are rounded up from. The guardians of law have no time for these criminals. They are in the juice business. No juice, no go – criminal or no criminal, what’s so hard to understand? <P>So great is the level of corruption in the force, that your well-wishers will actually dissuade you from reporting a crime to the police, even when you are the victim. They would rather have you take the loss and wizen up, than report it. Keep as far from the police as you possibly can – that is the motto of every simple folk leading an honest life in India. Gone are the days when good folks used to teach their kids to go up to a policeman and ask for help in times of trouble. Things have come to such a passé, that I know for sure, relatives of those in the force, actively work overtime not to get into a situation where there will have to admit that one of their own works for that loathed group. No wonder, the bulk majority of people who are willing to take up the law enforcement as a career, are from the backwaters of our society, those who are unsure of being able to earn a living the hard honest way, in a competitive world.<P>Despite the image and track record of our police force, we all feel so enraged when say, a westerner, casually refers to us from third world. When a common westerner labels a country as "third world", the implication is, apart from poverty, total and complete <I>dadagiri</I> by all those in power, particularly the police and the military. Judging from the behaviour of our politicians and the police, this not very far from truth. A word before you squeeze the trigger. Just go to India and try to tangle with any of these 2Ps, even on firm legal ground and see where the subsequent events lead you. I ask, where are your right as a citizen in your own country? Police, like politics, seems to be the last resort for the scoundrels.<P>By the way, how many people in the force have you met or know of, from <I>havildars</I> all the way to commissioners, who you respect, is educated, articulate, honest (!) and does the job of his office?<p>[This message has been edited by Sujit Sanyal (edited 10-01-2001).]

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 11 Jan 2001 18:59

My experiences with the police force are different in few cases. Atleast in my experience, they always protect you if they feel that you actually treat them/respect them well. The basic policy is "Its WE against them".<P>During my stint in the NCC I was deputed to the police force on election bandobust duties and traffic control. In both these cases the regular policemen, treated us as one amongst them. <P>Corruption in the force was always there, and it will take time to change. Nobody (including the policemen) is interested in actually changing the rowdy image of the police. Nobody really trusts the police, and do lodge complaints as merely a part of the formalities. For the constable on the beat, the rowdy image he has makes sure that he gets free supplies. This certainly would make him happy, since he does not have to spend from his meagre pay. For the higer ups, again the bribery is also increased.<P><P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sujit » 12 Jan 2001 04:05

It would be a good idea to re-educate the police force as to who really are its employer, who really fund their paychecks. From the attitude of the force, it is quite apparent that they mistake the ruling political bosses as their employers and masters, and that the public is, shall we say, an occupational hazard? Or maybe monkeys to be kept in good humour once in a while, and at other times, thrashed to get them in line? That is why whenever they have to render services to the politicians they do an excellent job. Thereafter, they are too damned spent out to give a damn to the needs of the public. The current status of the police is that of politicians’ <I>chapraasis</I>. Like any employer, the public has a right to demand work for pay, accountability and common courtesy from those they employ. The cross-eyed and warped notion of political allegiance as a part of the job must be eradicated immediately. Police should never be allowed to make the political arena their home turf. Unless we can separate these Siamese twins, the chances of an efficient police force in India is a far cry.

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sujit » 12 Jan 2001 07:19

<A HREF="http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php3?id=7378&type=Pageone&theme=A" TARGET=_blank><B>Robber Cops</B></A><P>Sachin, if you keep this thread open for some more time, I intend to flood it with news items like this. Don't you blame me after that! Image<p>[This message has been edited by Sujit Sanyal (edited 11-01-2001).]

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Re: Police Affairs in India

Postby Sachin » 12 Jan 2001 19:22

Its long time that most of our public servants understand that they are serving the public and not the elected buffoons. But since the Police is under the control of the political leaders, it will have to rot unless some sane leader may ever get a chance to win the election. Image<P>------------------<BR>Sachin P.K<BR>-------------------------<BR><A HREF="http://sachin_pk.tripod.com" TARGET=_blank>Sachin's Camp on the Web</A><BR>-------------------------<BR>


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