LCA is Named Tejas!!!

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby RonyKJ » 10 May 2003 06:19

Originally posted by narayanan:
I doubt if low speed handling is an issue - they can get other planes for training for that. Isn't an AJT meant to train pilots to deal with the high-speed landings, complex high-G maneuvers and precision position-keeping? I've heard somewhere that the transition from propeller planes with 60-knot landing speeds to the MiG-21 with its 200-knot-plus landing speed is one of the most horrible parts of IAF pilot training....

It may not be trivial to mimic the advanced instrumentation of a modern fighter, but then, the LCA IS supposed to be a modern fighter... they can go straight to weapons training in the same planes...

Sorry for posting something which is probably completely stupid - but why is it stupid?
Let me add my own stupid comments by trying to answer your questions.

Since MIG training is what we are looking for, the relevant question is whether the LCA can be made to fly like a MIG-21.

The following questions come to mind

1. Can the LCA be made to land at 200 knots to simulate the MIG. Don't know
2. Since the LCA has relaxed static stability, it should be able to turn on a dime. Can the control system be tweaked to make it turn with a much larger radius like the MIG? Probably yes.
3. The LCA has a much more advanced cockpit with HOTAS, HUD etc. Will these have to be removed to simulate the MIG-21
4. Can the LCA can be made to stall like the MIG-21?

There should be many more questions like this which if we can answer might provide the overall answer. Now tell me how stupid my post is.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Rudra » 10 May 2003 06:49

people transition from Kiran-II and Iskras to Mig21 not from propeller planes.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby JTull » 10 May 2003 09:01

<img src="http://203.200.38.99:8080/ADAWebservices/upload/news/Tejas.jpg" alt="" />

Some updates to ADA page

Stepping stone - Though the LCA programme has suffered major delays due to sanctions, according to Indian scientists, it has had a multiplier effect on Indian avionics. The technology learnt in building the LCA has allowed other avionics activity like the Advanced Light Helicopter, the Intermediate Jet Trainer and the twin aircraft, the SARAS. Most people though that it could not be done, but today they have realized that we are a country, a group who can take up very high technology projects. More than 80 per cent of the LCA is indigenous, said Dr Kota Harinarayana, Aeronautical Development Agency. Vajpayee also witnessed a flight display of technology demonstrators TD-1 and TD-2 of the LCA at the HAL airport. Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani, Defence Minister George Fernandes and Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister Dr V K Aatre were present at the occasion.


Indigenous technology - Conceived in 1983, the development of the LCA had been hit by delays due to various reasons including sanctions by the United States after the Pokhran blasts. It made its maiden flight on January 4, 2001. But Twenty years into the LCA programme and 75 flights later, Indian avionic scientists feel that the entire LCA programe has given a huge fillip to the indigenous aircraft technology for the country. The future from this point on could only be upbeat. Final clearance for the aircraft is expected after 2,000 hours of flying. The tailless, delta-winged, digital, fly-by-wire aircraft is expected to replace the Indian Air Force s ageing MiG 21 fleet. It is expected to get its initial operational clearance by 2006 and is expected to be inducted in the Air Force by 2010.


Test runs - MiG-21s have been India s frontline fighters since the 1960s but the multi-role LCA is expected to now become the backbone of the Indian Air Force. Initial models of the LCA will roll out with engines from GE Corporation. The indigenous Kaveri engines are currently undergoing tests in Russia. We have had five Kaveri engines on the test bed. We have run more than 1000 hours. Right now one of the engines is in Russia for a high altitude cell. Hopefully by the end of the year or early next year, we will go on the flight test bed. By 2005 it should be fitted on the aircraft and tried, said Dr V K Aatre, Scientific Advisor.If all goes well with India s prestigious LCA programme from this point on, 200 Light Combat Aircraft will replace the MiG 21s in the Indian Air Force by 2017. - (With PTI inputs)

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Aditya_M » 10 May 2003 11:34

why do you need to train pilots to fly MiG-21s from LCA's or Tejases (?!), when the Tejas will replace the MiG-21s in the first place. They could be trained instead for the Mirage (delta wing)... or hell, if the landing speed of the Tejas is low, then maybe you can use it to train them for the MiG-23/27 which have low landing speeds w.r.t. the MiG-21 because of the VSW?

on a side note, why dont we use the MiG-23 as a trainer to transition to the MiG-21? That could be the intermediate step for fresh pilots to deal with higher landing speeds?

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Sribabu » 10 May 2003 14:30

narayanan,

My opinion is,

Looking and comparing just landing speeds will be losing the issue in the nitty gritty. The issues are not just landing speeds(which ofcourse is a pointer) but also the reaction of the aircraft while performing high-energy and high G manoevers.

With Mig21, the pilot goes directly from Kiran/Iskra on to an aircraft of very high performance and more importantly, demanding and "unforgiving". Not a ideal way to train. Initially, only the best pilots were flying the Mig21, so it was not an issue, as they transitioned from Hunters and others to give them some experience.(akin to getting on to a Bullet only after you excel on cycle, luna, chetak, Rajdoot). Now that the Mig21 is the main stay, sort of became the mainstay(everyone goes from luna to bullet by just getting min. grade) , ie., everyone need to fly it, the problems get highlighted. Added to that, you are now making a bigger jump when getting onto Mig21, hence all those issues. This is the reason why even GF says there is no direct connection between the lack of AJT and Mig21 crashes. (See the recent statements to Parliament about these).

If Mig21 is to be replaced by Tejas (LCA), which will be more forgiving on the pilot due it's FBW, we don't really need an AJT. Yes, the presence of an AJT will still be a help, but it won't be that big a requirement as it is now.

Putting it in simple terms, for Mig21, you need AJT. For Tejas, AJT will help the training process and gives more confidence to the pilot, but is not really necessary.

Sri

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby AJames » 10 May 2003 14:40

If you are training for LCA, Mirage 2000, Su30MKI, Mig 29, Mig 23/27, Mig 21, Jaguar then there is no doubt the LCA trainer is going to be vastly better than the Hawk, and handling characteristics and the glass cockpit can be programmed to mimic each aircraft and can also transition from easy to hard handling as training progressses.

The only problem is how long to get into service. If this solution is proposed India needs to buy some cheap second hand AJTs in the interim.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Kuttan » 10 May 2003 16:24

The main advantages to shfting training to LCA are

1. Vastly increased pilot skills in flying the LCA as it evolves..

(this I believe can be a force multiplier when you have to deal with situations like flying through the valleys of Kashmir and blasting the terrorist pigs on the cliffs... )

2. Rapid evolution and improvement of the LCA with all that accumulating pilot experience

3. Development of new combat tactics.

4. Most important ... you don't have to go to a phoren Expert Consultant for permission every time you want to try out a new configuration - like, say, a weapon with greater weight and size ..... :eek: or new tactics.

5. Save the money which would be wasted on the overpriced HAWKS, and use it to create jobs and technological infrastructure - better engine technology, better nozzles, better electronics.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby ragupta » 10 May 2003 21:03

Eventually Tejas and its derivative could be our main fighting force.

But to maintain the number at a cheaper cost, we need a derivative of IJT for AJTing, with a supersonic capability, although not needed.

The tejas appears to be in technology catching race, with state of the art everything, forcing its delay into production and induction.

As an interim, the goal should be to develop IJT into a solid performer, and develop a version having more powerful single engine as opposed to the current one. It should go into production 2005/2006. Avoid including everything state of the art or going for the most efficient engine. First get into production with integrating component based on state-of-the-art - one generation. And go from there.

Do we license manufacture any non-soviet series fighter aircraft engine in India right now.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Kuttan » 11 May 2003 00:20

My suggestion was to use the endless prototypes of LCA as trainers.

Indecision is the Key to Flexibility

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby rhytha » 11 May 2003 00:29

2 more angle's of tejas, one at the top banner, one underbelly look

Click here

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby manpreet » 11 May 2003 00:29

The swedish air force send their pilots from intermediate jet trainer to grippen.

The raf navigator who got shot down in 1991gw has covered this on a discovery wings program.

Pilots fly on jet provost type and then on to grippen.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby srai » 11 May 2003 08:53

Originally posted by manpreet:
The swedish air force send their pilots from intermediate jet trainer to grippen.

The raf navigator who got shot down in 1991gw has covered this on a discovery wings program.

Pilots fly on jet provost type and then on to grippen.
That's an eye opener!

Could this mean ... if the AJT deal goes through further delays ... that a "simplified" version of the Tejas LCA make it as an AJT?

Rest of this post is pure speculation from my part: :D

Here's my take on the <u>Tejas -Trainer varient</u>:
* 2-seat Simplified Cockpit
* Limited weapons capability (use of pods for additional capability)
* Configurable FBW
* no AAR probe
* no radar (optional pod mounted)

So taking into current IAF training stages:
1. HPT-32 Deepak (or the new one HAL is currently planning)
   * ~100
   * undertaking primary flying training)
2. HJT-36 IJT
   * 200+
   * undertaking basic/intermediate Jet Training
   * Weapons Training I
     - basic air-to-air combat(AAC) I (within-visual-combat(WVR))
     - air-to-surface combat(ASC) I ("dumb" bombing I)
3. Tejas T-varient
   * ~66
   * Advanced Jet/Combat Training I
   * Weapons Training II
     - WVR AAC II
     - ASC II ("dumb" bombing II & PGM strike I)
   * Electronic Warfare (EW) I
4. Tejas A/B-varient Operational Unit (in the likes of MOU)
   * 2-4 Squadrons (fully combat capable during war-time)
   * Advanced Combat Manuever II
   * Weapons Training III
     - WVR AAC III
     - BVR AAC I & II
     - ASC III (PGM strike II)
   * EW II

Plus extensive use of simulators in each of the stages!

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby AJames » 11 May 2003 12:23

Could this mean ... if the AJT deal goes through further delays ... that a "simplified" version of the Tejas LCA make it as an AJT?
Even that is not required - unless you want to remove the radar or some other weapons systems to save cost. The standard LCA trainer will do. The only additional work will be to put in some new flight control laws and glass cockpit display configuration for simulating the handling and display of various aircraft an
different difficulty levels.

Imagine it, you climb into an LCA trainer, and select Mig 21 - beginner, and the aircraft takes on the required handling characteristics and the important analogue displays of the Mig 21 are displayed on the various multifunction displays. Once you have finished, the next trainee climbs in and selects Mirage 2000 - advanced, and the LCA trainer configures itself for that.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby amarnath » 11 May 2003 12:40

Aha i get what u r saying..u r talking about a pc simulator that i remeber flying in HAL Heritage museum and i asked the person there to give me LAVI Jet ... U seem to be speaking like that...at this rate we might end up discussing TEJAS for moon mission...please dont think i am whining let TEJAS go @ its pace and get IOC first that is more important.Fighters are far far far too complex for your type of imagination :D :D :D :rotfl:

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby grip » 11 May 2003 14:48

The article in Hindustan Times by Vishal Thapar on the Tejas dated May 4,2003 has made quite a stir on the web.
[http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_246299,0008.htm]

Not only did I find many responses on forums on how blatantly ignorant the author was, I did also find some responses in the media itself.
[http://india.medinf.com/hate.html]

The appearance of the article in a daily also exposes the ADA's PR abilities.But what is more appalling is the fact that Mr.Thapar chose to write the article assuming
1. A general ignorance about the technology in the Tejas among the public.
2. That the public arent that discerning about qualifications of the author when reading articles.
And Im shocked to find that the ADA has not respnded to the article so far.

So,
I take it that its the responsibility of those who know a bit abt the Tejas should do their part in makin sure the real picture gets depicted. But Im not sure how this can be done.

As for myself, I did send a couple of links on the LCA to Mr.Thapar where I believe he could have *possibly* been embarassed(depending on how thick-skinned he is) at his ignorance.

Mr.Thapar contact details are below.

VISHAL THAPAR
Tel: 23704637,22206074
Email: vthapar@hotmail.com
Cell: 9810288343

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby AJames » 11 May 2003 17:45

Aha i get what u r saying..u r talking about a pc simulator that i remeber flying in HAL Heritage museum and i asked the person there to give me LAVI Jet ... U seem to be speaking like that...at this rate we might end up discussing TEJAS for moon mission...please dont think i am whining let TEJAS go @ its pace and get IOC first that is more important.Fighters are far far far too complex for your type of imagination

Well actually id luv to have a TEJAS like that anyway
No, I am not talking about a simulator, I am talking about the capabilities of the Tejas that are flying right now.

Tejas is an unstable fly-by-wire aircraft and has to have artificial stability characteristics programmed in, in order to fly at all. It also has artificial handling characteristics programmed in for example to prevent stall, spin or structural overload, or to protect the pilot in high G maneuvers, to prevent the aircraft hitting the ground in ground hugging maneuvers or even possibly if the pilot blacks out during high G maneuvers. The fly-by-wire system allows you to program in any handling characteristics you want that is aerodynamically achievable. The current LCA prototypes' handling characteristics are as artificial as would be an LCA emulating a MiG 21 for example.

The LCA envelope is larger than the MiG 21 (I believe the MiG 21 has a higher stall speed and therefore higher landing speed). The control laws can be changed with a flip of a switch to mimic the handling of a MiG 21 or any other aircraft simply by running a different control law program than the one that the LCA normally runs. This can make the aircraft less maneuverable and give it less power and acceleration to match the MiG 21's characteristics. Even the MiG 21's handling faults can be artificially created. For unsafe maneuvers such as stalling, spinning and structural overload, you can sound a warning buzzer rather than have the LCA do the same.

The only things you can't match exactly are the things the LCA can't do aerodynamically eg. aircraft with lower landing/stalling speeds than the LCA (most high performance jets have higher stall speeds), the actual controls - the LCA will have a joystick rather than a lever, and actual instrumentation (although the LCA's LCD multi-function displays can display analogue displays of at least the main ones on the MiG 21 to emulate it to some degree. You can also start beginners with easy handling characteristics and then progressively make it harder as the trainee becomes more proficient until it handles like the aircraft it is emulating.

The AJT can't do any of these, can't do supersonic training, and has limited weapons training capability so as an advanced trainer it is way inferior to the LCA trainer.

Another advantage is in advanced air combat training. If you know the handling characteristics of an opponent's aircraft (eg. an F16, Mirage III, F7) you can program this into an LCA and try out combat maneuvers to determine the best combat strategies.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Kuttan » 11 May 2003 18:01

Of course its not trivial to convert an LCA prototype into a trainer! But I believe that if the flight envelope extends beyond that of the planes it is supposed to train pilots for, then its feasible in principle.

First issue is simply advanced training. In this case, is it essential that the controls be exactly replicated? Can the HAWK do this? (i.e., do you buy HAWK-MiG-21, HAWK-Mirage2000 etc.? I doubt it.

If the flight envelope is wider, one can train the pilots to pull more G's, do landing approaches at speed, and practice maneuvers at least as extreme as those in the other planes?

They'd have to develop a dual-controls, dual cockpit version. Then if, say, the "practice MiG-21" pilot allowed the speed to come close to the MiG-21 stall speed, the instructor can say like my flight instructor used to: "have u looked at your speed recently?" Apparently the IAF flight instructors just reach over and give you a nice tap on the head - and say something far less nice but more memorable..

Simulating the controls of a different aircraft is of course not easy - it will take thousands of hours of algorithm development, software development, static tests of control actuation, proofs of "robustness"... but hey, they need to hire a few more good engineers and Attila-type project managers instead of wasting the money on HAWKs.

I assume that once a pilot has trained in the Advanced trainer, s(he) graduates to flying in the specific aircraft, in its own trainer versions? That would be the way to get the feel of all the specific controls, levers, buttons, view obstructions, and advanced topics like "How to Tie Seat Belt" etc., hey?

To simulate the precise gauges and control levers of other aircraft, they would have to put the effort into building a conversion cockpit, and develop algorithms and software for each plane that is to mimic. That can't be so impossible either, hey?

This all sounds so easy to type from my kitchen table... :roll:

May main observation is that I am "hajaar" impressed to see that picture of two LCA prototypes coming in to land in formation.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby AJames » 11 May 2003 18:18

I am not saying that an LCA trainer can fully replace type specific trainers, but it can reduce the numbers required, and greatly improve training over what is possible with the Hawk. In any case the IAF has type specific trainers for final familiarization with controls and displays and handling.

If the IAF doesn't want to spend any money to develop new control laws for specific types (I don't think this will be that expensive), then they can just add a beginner mode with easier handling for beginners. How much more would this cost since the AJT trainer is being developed in any case?

The Hawk AJT of course can't do any of this.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Cybaru » 11 May 2003 21:05

The longer we wait for AJT, less would be the need for it to mimic the mig-21.

If the mirage2K and hawk are signed and the LCA starts production, the time frame for production would almost be around 2005-2006 onwards.

By 2005-2006, we will probably see if the above happens...

LCA - 15 yearly
Su-30MKI - 12 yearly
M2000 - 12-14 yearly
AJT - 10 yearly
IJT- 20 yearly

being produced and being inducted into inventory.

The main emphasis probably could be conversion from mig-21 to these 39 new planes being inducted into the inventory or just train the new pilots on these new types being inducted. Will we still induct new pilots on the mig-21 even later ?

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby manpreet » 11 May 2003 21:34

I think the idea would be to keep it simple with the aircraft as is; in trainer version and squadron service.

Pilots would convert on the two seater. Join a squadron to gain flying skills and build up capacity in the fighter environment.

After a few years move onto the bigger/less docile/more complicated equipment.

I hope this does not constitute a hijacking of the naming thread?

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby JCage » 11 May 2003 21:45

Guys any reconfigurable (FBW) LCA based trainer can only appear after 2010 after the LCA team hands over the LCA to the AF.I doubt that the IAF will wait till 2010 for an AJT solution and nor should they.
I suggest that this be a long term project for the future IAF fleet but the basic AJT be a development of the IJT.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Balaji » 12 May 2003 01:08

Guys,

Why should the IAF use a $20 million plane(Tejas, M2K is even more expensive) as an AJT ? The people flying the AJT want to familiarise with flying at close to Mach 1(like .8 or something like that). Why put them in a plane that can do Mach 1.6(Tejas) or Mach 2(M2k) ? The AJT, I think, should cost much less than the Tejas.

If Tejas has to converted to a trainer, then the DFBW software has to be rewritten and a new engine would need to be integrated. That means, starting off from the beginning, for all practical purposes. Is it easier to upgrade the IJT to an AJT or downgrade the Tejas to an AJT ? I would go with the IJT -> AJT. This is easier, cheaper and you get an AJT meant for teaching pilots handling characteristics of high performance jet aircrafts.

The AJT does not have to simulate every possible aircraft in inventory or the aircrafts to come. It has to teach pilots to handle planes flying at Mach 1 or about that speed. The pilots will be trained to handle the actual combat aircrafts when they are assigned to a squadron.

Anyway, why is the Tejas thread hijacked to an AJT thread ?

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Kuttan » 12 May 2003 01:40

HAWK is some $20M - $30M apiece, right?

I wonder why the LCA should take until 2010 to produce in numbers as small as 15 per year...

Is it a matter of funding? Once the prototypes are going supersonic and the Kaveri engine is running, can the production be ramped up on "bhar phooting" as the netas say? Also, how many trainers would be needed? I would say about 20 total?? Am I way off?

Just trying to get a sense of the organizational size and resources needed to blast through this maze of interlocking constraints and frustrations.

As they say:

[quote] The birthing of a child takes around 9-10 months regardless of the number of personnel assigned to the job..[quote] yeah, yeah, but if the corporate Movers and Shakers and some good IAS officers are put together with some military types and tough engineer types, is this all so impossible? As it stands, the costs of the LCA program are miniscule compared to any other program with such revolutionary implications for the Indian technology / defense scene.

Come on, we're not hijacking the thread, just considering possibilities with the Tejas.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby SRay » 12 May 2003 02:38

Nari, regarding production of Tejas... do you think that IAF's ability to acquire and train news pilots could be a constraint as well? I'm talking about constraint in qualified personnel (pilots and trainers), number of training aircraft, simulators, $$$, etc.... and on top of it, they also have to train pilots of other aircraft as well.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Sridhar » 12 May 2003 02:50

Originally posted by Soumya Ray:
Nari......
:p

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Kuttan » 12 May 2003 03:21

Sridhar: a distinct improvement on what I was called at the Unmentionable Forum by the Lahorus Unmentionablus. :D )

Until about prototype #5 (the Navy version) I don't seriously believe that we will have a production-ready, world-beating combat aircraft with unique capabilities. But until then what we DO have are a whole series of nice trainers, with tons of instrumentation to measure every mistake the pilot makes, and every response of the aircraft.

The control/guidance system was an interesting deal in itself. I bet a lot was learned from the "LCA program" to make certain other "vehicles" fly ???? But anyway, that's all solved now, and we DO have the knowledge that fly-by-wire control systems can be designed and built in India.

Somewhere else I see that the first desi AAM was flight-tested - synchronized with the Amritraj visit. There's a message there too, isn't there? I remember Adm (retd) :whine: Nadkarni :whine: that all the weapons for the LCA are phoren - but not any more!

Today at least two prototypes are flying, and I believe the top demonstrated speed is somewhere in the high subsonic, if not transonic. Maybe there are about two more GE404 engines remaining -and I think with a little sweet-talking and poetry, ABV can get a dozen more engines from GE, no problem. Remember that all the stuff till now has been done with a grand total of EIGHT engines? These ADA/DRDO/HAL whatever guys are miracle-workers. More hot air is put out from the dork media than from all these engines put together.

So! Now that these things are flying, why not think a little more grandly? During WW2, within 1 year, the US cranked up to produce some 25000 to 40,000 planes a year, didn't they? Surely India can figure out how to produce 20 a year of these "totally indigenous" marvels within 2 years, with the prototypes already flying? Why not race for a Year 2005 delivery of 5 trainers, certified for high subsonic and no higher? And then, as the prototype crossed Mach 1.6, quietly upgrade, or produce 10 more new versions by Year 2006? With hours accumulating on these and the prototypes, we can probably crank out a whole Group of decent airplanes by 2008.

Excellent people can be recruited and trained, if the Babus put their minds to it. There are so many young people in India with the eye-hand-foot coordination and reaction speed to hit 80-mph bowling over the square-leg boundary or take diving catches with pretty good reliability, and many many more excellent video-game players (like my couch-potato nephews) who can hit Xylon SpaceFighters with missiles guaranteed - why can't they find people to fly fighters?

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby SRay » 12 May 2003 03:57

Dang it... something of a slip... I have another friend called Narayanan, and thats what we call him. Anyhow, I'm sure you'll get over it! :p

As for high production numbers, my highly uneducated guess is that HAL has two alternatives: (1) commence production immediately, and later on retrofit the early production aircraft to new standards, kind of like the K->MKI route; (2) wait till enough of the final design and parts are firmly in place to begin producing.

I suspect that option 2 is the way HAL is going for reasons it hasn't explicitly put out. Given uncertainties like when the Kaveri is going to be in place, I'm not surprised. BTW, any ideas if integrating a new engine will entail a new round of extensive tests and verifications on the LCA as well? Or can engines of a similar class be swapped easily?

That said, I'm sure that if things were on a "bhar phooting" we would be cranking these babies out like sausages (anyone remember Kruschev with that line?)

As for personnel, yes I'm sure every mig-21 pilot, or any IAF pilot for that matter, is having wet dreams about jumping into an LCA. And I'm sure we have no shortage of qualified ppl in the country to fly them. The question remains one of urgency in making the transition perhaps?

I know that BRites hate the "what about other countries" line, but does anyone know what initial production rates were like when new aircraft were developed in other nations? Might put our anxieties in perspective.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby RonyKJ » 12 May 2003 04:30

I am guessing that the scenario is as follows:

A. HAL/ADA could start producing the Tejas in small numbers, say 5 a year, in the same form as the PV1 using the same methods they have used so far. However they would not be from a production line and would almost be hand made as far as the structure goes. I think they should go ahead and do this. The limited production series of 8 aircraft ordered is probably going to be made in this fashion.

B. HAL/ADA cannot start producing the Tejas in numbers, say 25/year unless they have the production tooling done. Production tooling cannot be made unless the design is finalized. Design cannot be finalized until the testing is completed and the full flight envelope is investigated. If this sequence is followed, we will not see the Tejas in production and inducted until 2010 or later. I think this would be very very bad. All kinds of pressures would start bearing on the program from further MIG crashes, obsolescence etc.

I really feel that they should take option A and start producing aircraft at the present technology level and hand them over to the IAF. User trials are going to provide valuable inputs cuncurrent with ongoing development of weapons and other systems. The initial aircraft may need to be restricted in capabilities to the extent that has been verified in testing, much like having governors to restrict speed. Granted that these aircraft may not be battle ready although compared to the MIG-21, I feel even a 75% realized LCA would probably perform much better. The design of the Tejas is never going to stop. It shouldn't in fact. The Tejas should continue as a flying test bed. Down the line we should have improvements like electric actuators (as was done in the F-16 recently), fly-by-light (using fiber optics), supercruise, more composites, more advanced mission computers, thrust vectoring and so on. Since design improvements are going to be an ongoing and continuous process, we can very well justify going into production with the present design, even if it means retooling after two years.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby srai » 12 May 2003 05:28

Here's my take on the possible Tejas production schedule:
<table border="1">
<tr>
<td colspan="4" align="center"><h3>Possible Tejas LCA Production Schedule</h3></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="10%">[color="Maroon"]Years</font></td>
<td width="21%">[color="Maroon"]Varient</font></td>
<td width="5%">[color="Maroon"]Qty</font></td>
<td width="64%">[color="Maroon"]Description</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>1992-2005</td>
<td>TD-1/2;PV-1/2/3/4/5</td>
<td>7</td>
<td>These are/will be used for flight certification testing and validations, etcs...</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2004-2007</td>
<td>Pre-Production</td>
<td>7</td>
<td>This is primarily for confidence building measure as well as for gearing up HAL facilities to undertake full production of LCA. This would also provide IAF maintenance/logistics crews (and etcs.) Tejas experience!</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2008-2012</td>
<td>A/B MK.1 Batch I (IOC)</td>
<td>~40</td>
<td>At this point, I would assume that Tejas would have completed most of the flight testing but with limited weapons capability (i.e. only air-to-air) in the likes of Rafale/Typhoon projects. Most (at least 20+ if not all) powered by [color="green"]GE-404 engines</font> [of which 40+ have been ordered].</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2012-2015</td>
<td>A/B MK.2 Batch II (FOC)</td>
<td>~40</td>
<td>All flight testing completed including weapons capabilities (i.e. true multi-role at this point). Production and quality improvements attained. From here on, all new production LCAs powered by [color="green"]Kaveri engines</font>. Also in this phase, upgrade of the MK.1 to MK.2 standards. This Batch I and Batch II should give at least 4 sqdns. by 2015 [as stated by Dr. Atre]</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2015-2018</td>
<td>A/B MK.3 Batch III</td>
<td>~60</td>
<td>Maximum production occurring at this point. Production/quality improvements utilized. Also, avionics/EW upgrades incorporated.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2018-2021</td>
<td>C/D MK.1 Batch IV</td>
<td>~60</td>
<td>Most advanced Tejas varient utilizing technologies attained from current on-going LCA R&D, MCA and PAK-FA projects, such as [color="blue"]stealth, conformal fuel tanks, AESA-type radar, thrust-vectoring, uprated Kaveri for supercruise </font> (at about Mach 1.1 [from KH interview with Flight International 98]).</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2021-2024</td>
<td>C/D MK.2 Batch V</td>
<td>~40</td>
<td>Possibly the last production batch! incorporating production improvements and more advanced avionics/EW suite.</td>
</tr>
</table>

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby JTull » 12 May 2003 07:05

Nari ( :) ) first contract with GE entails delivery of 11 engines and second contract (after sanctions were lifted) is for 40 new ones.

Also, any talk of producing Tejas-Trainers is premature before control software for entire flight envelope is certified. I'd expect 100% of flight envelope to be reached within next one year as all the PVs are supposed to test various mission software, radar integration, conter-measures, weapons integration, etc.

Srai, I think your production level forecasts are too low. Once the first two squadrons using GE-404 are out, you could see almost 30-40 Kaveri based Tejas being produced in a year. The reason being that HAL will have far more resources after Mig upgrades and Jaguar production are completed. If at this point any potential Mirage2K production is still happening then I'd be very diappointed to see planes of different generations competing for same resouces.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Yogeshwar » 12 May 2003 09:15

A month or two ago there was a pic or unveiling os another indigenous aircraft. which one was it? It had the BENT stooped down nose like a concord and a huge glass dome.

I know its not Tejas can any one link a pic ?

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby JaiS » 12 May 2003 15:11

Yogeshwar, I think that you are referring to the IJT ( Intermediate Jet Trainer ) Sitara unveiled sometime back . Here are a few photographs of this bird taken by Mr. Sanjay Simha . Enjoy !

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/IJT/IJT-4.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/IJT/IJT-5.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/IJT/IJT-6.jpg

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Pranay » 12 May 2003 18:56

Tejas to go supersonic in a few weeks...

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/may12/n5.asp

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby grip » 12 May 2003 22:42

I have a few questions on the Kaveri engine and its integration with the Tejas.

We have completely different envionments - from Rajasthan to Himachal Pradesh to Kerala. Will the engine be tested for performance issues in such extreme environments. In the recent war with Iraq , US aircraft and helos faced high ambient temperatures and presence of sand particles and performance was an issue.

Will the airframe and structure of Tejas be redesigned for Kaveri for different thrusts?

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Rudra » 12 May 2003 22:53

first lot of ge404 engined Tejas will not be
re-engined with Kaveri because rear fuselage
internal mods will be considerable - a report
said. The first 40-50 Tejas will be GE permanently.
this is not a bad thing imo - keeps GE engaged
with HAL and opens up scope for future projects,
now that GE is firmly doing R&D in Blore too.

both Kaveri and GE engined Tejas will certainly
be subjected to extensive hot-n-high tests,
sea water corrosion tests in coastal areas,
sand grinding on turbine blades, controlled
bird-ingestion tests (in wind tunnel)....IAF
cannot accept Tejas without definitive results
on all fronts .

one must note however that similar 404 engined
F18s have been operating hostile regimes for
2 decades now. 404 is a good engine.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby jrjrao » 13 May 2003 00:28

The April 22 issue of Flight International has published its annual "Flight International's military engine directory (which) provides a company-by-company listing of the world's military powerplants in use on combat aircraft, trainers, tankers, transports and helicopters."

In which the blurb on Kaveri is as follows:
Gas Turbine Research Establishment

India's Gas Turbine Research Estabishment (GTRE) continues its lengthy development of the indigenous Kaveri for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), despite problems which have pushed back its availability from 2004 to 2007. To keep the LCA on track, the Indian air force has ordered a batch of GE F404s, now available following the lifting of a US arms embargo in 2001. Main development issues with the 11,700lb-thrust (dry) rated Kaveri have surrounded the compressor, which failed to achieve the targeted overall engine pressure ratio (EPR) of 21.5. The compressor, which generated an EPR of 19.5:1, also suffered from vibration problems that contributed to the test engine achieving only 1,200h of its projected 8,000h test run time. A shorter 250h test effort is planned with a partially redesigned compressor for 2003, including simulated high-altitude tests at Russia's Central Institute for Aviation Motors in Moscow. The redesigned engine is also around 150kg lighter than the troubled prototype, which weighed in at around 1,100kg. GTRE plans to conduct more than 6,000h of tests in 2004-5 and expects final certification by the end of 2005 -- 19 years after the launch of the project.
Kaveri
Kaveri 18,750 (Max thrust reheat (lb)) 11,700 (Max thrust dry (lb)) - Turbofan. Indigenous engine for Indian LCA

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Neshant » 13 May 2003 00:55

> first contract with GE entails delivery of 11
> engines and second contract (after sanctions
> were lifted) is for 40 new ones

What if india is screwed by america and at the last moment they don't supply the engines. That will be another blow.

They should sign a contract and buy all 40 GE-F404 engines right away.

Fortunately the 11 GE engines were delivered prior to the nuclear tests in 1998 so the LCA continued on despite sanctions.

Guest

Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Guest » 13 May 2003 01:09

ah... squeezing out the last 10% (2/21.5)... hopefully it won't take 90% of the time as the conventional wisdom goes.

for comparison... what is the EPR on the GE404? GE's web page (scroll down) says "Overall Pressure Ratio at maximum power" is 27 for the F2J3.

Originally posted by jrjrao:
...the compressor, which failed to achieve the targeted overall engine pressure ratio (EPR) of 21.5. The compressor, which generated an EPR of 19.5:1......

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Prateek » 13 May 2003 02:03

Testfiring of ASTRA is directly related to the 'TEJAS' ! :)

Astra test-fired for third time
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_251520,0008.htm

Developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the missile has a striking range of 25 to 40 km providing it a beyond visual range interception capability, the sources said.

Designed to be the main interception armour of the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the missile is powered by solid propellant.

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Re: LCA is Named Tejas!!!

Postby Yogeshwar » 13 May 2003 02:30

Originally posted by Jai SR:
Yogeshwar, I think that you are referring to the IJT ( Intermediate Jet Trainer ) Sitara unveiled sometime back . Here are a few photographs of this bird taken by Mr. Sanjay Simha . Enjoy !

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/IJT/IJT-4.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/IJT/IJT-5.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/IJT/IJT-6.jpg
Much Thanks Jai SR,

I jumped from LCA to AJT forgot about the intermediate step :-)

OK if LCA = LKA (light kombat aircraft)
IJT = ?


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