<I>Hi All - just returned from a visit to India. Picked up some mags on the return - posting some interesting tidbits: Feel free to move this into the news folder if you feel its better suited there. The intention was to start a discussion on the numerous bullet points below </I><P><B>Soaring Hopes from Frontline July 20, 2001. Story on HAL and Indian aerospace in general, some highlights (most we already know, but still interesting): </B><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> HAL to invest $160 mil to manufacture SU-30MKI starting 2004 (10 to 12 a year)<BR><LI> HAL manufactured Su-30 MKI to be 10% cheaper at $30 mil each compared to Irkutsk built units<BR><LI> Reexport of Su-30MKI is not allowed<BR><LI> Domestic industry would like to get involved if they can spinoff technology into civilian usages or for export<BR><LI> Rs/400 to Rs/600 crores required to setup line to manufacture 12 to 14 LCAs a year<BR><LI> The LCA production line will be setup while its being certified in order to save time. <BR><LI> HAL to deliver 8 ALHs by end of 2001, 16 in 2002, and 24 annually after that<BR><LI> ALH is priced between $4 to $6 mil depending on config<BR><LI> ALH will use Turbomecca TM333 engine. Was also offered MTR 390 used in the Tiger attack helo.<BR><LI> The Shakti engine (an appropriate name)for the ALH will be codeveloped with Snemeca for $40 million. It will be 20% more powerful than the TM333. Anyone know how that compares to the LHTEC CTS800 or the one used in the Comanche?<BR><LI> 100 seater to be codeveloped with Ilyushin for Rs/2000 crores. To be 30% cheaper than other aircraft in its class. First flight in 4 years, requirement of 100 aircraft between 2006 and 2011.<BR><LI> IJT will use the Snecma Larzec engine. Avionincs will be provided by “partners” as opposed to vendors– on an investment basis<BR><LI> IJT to cost aroun $15 mil, with a demand of 225 units from IAF. First flight is 2002, with entering squadron service before 2005<BR><LI> The PTV – Lakshya will almost certainly be bought by the Israeli’s having compared it to competing American, British, and French offerings. Based on statement by Amos Yaron – DG of Israeli MOD “We have seen the Lakshya and are interested. It’s a good system that fits our requirements”<BR><LI> Lakshya costs Rs 150 million (five aircraft and ground stations) with additional aircraft costing Rs/ 15 million ($330,00).<BR><LI> IAF's initial order is for 15 aircraft and three sets of ground stations. ADE to manufacture 15 to 20 PTVs a year.<BR><LI> Project Vetrivel has been successfully integrated on Su-30 MKI. This is the core mission computer, display processors, and radar computers. Currently 25% of Su-30 MKI avionics is Indian made. The software and hardware for this project has been developed by ASIEO (adv sys integration and eval org) of the ADE<BR><LI> Currently 4 Su-30 MKIs have been modified with Indian avionics<BR><LI> ASIEO is offering avionics suite based on Vetrivel for upgrading Mig-27 ML (140 in service)<BR><LI> LRDE (electronics and radar development lab of DRDO) has bagged an order to supply 2 X band rugged slotted guide antennae (what is this?) to the Polish Telecom Research Inst.</UL><BR><p>[This message has been edited by subhendu (edited 15-07-2001).]
Is $15 million for HJT-36 a typo?<P>It better be, since the K-8 was said to cost about $3.5 million and HJT-36 is pretty much in the same class.<P>Or am I smoking something?<P>p.s. Found this, it says HJT-36 to cost Rs 19 crore which sounds more like it. Sinc ethis report HJT-36 has picked up some pretty nifty subsystems (Larzac engine, K-36 ejection seats and French HUD & MFD) so Rs 19 crores could go a little up, but Rs 75 crores!<BR> <A HREF="http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19980706/18755324p.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19980706/18755324p.html</A>
I was surprised when I read that amount as well. Seems kind of steep, however the article also mentioned that was about 30% cheaper than European alternatives. With the reported amount for the Hawk at $20 mil, it could be the correct figure(I think its a typo though). The Hawk however is an AJT whereas HAL is developing an IJT. The K-8 is an IJT as well. <p>[This message has been edited by subhendu (edited 15-07-2001).]
Project "Vetrivel". An interesting name - because it is straight from Tamil. I hadn't heard the word until I learned some Tamil. Don't know if it is just a name - "Vetri" means victory I think.
Wow<P>Su 30 MKIs at US$ 30 million - what room does that leve for the LCA at around US$ 20-22 million?<P>A comparable Western Fighter would be around US$ 50-60 million at the very least.<P>Peeyoosh
I think its typo. There have been reports in other places that throw a figure of 3-4 Mil USD which amounts to approx RS 15 million.<P>Other then that just confirming what shaji posted earlier. Interesting figure of 82 sold so far and opertional certification around 2005.<BR> <BR> <A HREF="http://22.214.171.124/turbomeca/nwsgb/_ec_0026.html" TARGET=_blank>http://126.96.36.199/turbomeca/nwsgb/_ec_0026.html</A> <P>Bordes, 19.06.2001<P>NEW VERSION OF TM 333 2C2 ENGINE SCHEDULED FOR 2005<P>TURBOMECA is pleased to announce the creation of a new version of our TM 333 engine, the TM 333 2C2. This 1,200 shp will fit a military and civil twin-engine<BR>helicopter in the 5 to 6 tonnes class. Its certification is scheduled for 2005. <P>The structure and development of the TM 333 2C2 through an international partnership was implemented through an International partnership with the signing of a<BR>MOU with the Indian industry last July. <P>TURBOMECA currently produces a version of the TM 333 (TM 333 2B2) most specifically oriented towards the Indian market with 82 engines sold to Hindustan<BR>Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to fit the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). This successful experience supports TURBOMECA’s role as a leader in the turbine<BR>engines for helicopters and confirms our ability to handle the demands of all helicopter manufacturers. TURBOMECA, a subsidiary of the SNECMA Group,<BR>produces a world class of engines which range from 400 to 3,000 shp and have logged 70,000,000 flying hours in 130 countries. <P>Turbomeca is one of the world leaders in the design, development and manufacture of small and medium gas turbines for helicopters. Since the company began<BR>operations, it has produced nearly 48,000 turbines. The headquarters are based in Bordes (France). Turbomeca is part of the SNECMA group. <P>
Su-30MKI's @ $30 million are a good deal. That will make the 200 odd pieces affordable. However, LCA even @ $22 million is a good complement to the Su30MKI if it's operational costs are significantly lower. Fuel consumption as one example, is surely in the LCA's favor seeing that it has about a third of the thrust of the Su-30.
Shiv>>"Project "Vetrivel". An interesting name - because it is straight from Tamil. I hadn't heard the word until I learned some Tamil. Don't know if it is just a name - "Vetri" means victory I think."<P>Shiv:<P>"Vetri" indeed means victory. The term "vetrivel" translates to "victorious spear". It is used in conjunction with Lord Muruga (aka Lord Karthikeya) based in the temple town of Pazhani, TN. Lord Muruga also happens to be one of the dear children of Lord Shiva and Goddess Parvati. The peacock (the vehicle of Lord Muruga) and the "vetrivel" are an inseparable part of Lord Muruga. <P>Perhaps with your permission we could open a discussion on the HiCAF to discuss the famed "Thiruvilayadal" or "divine play" involving Lord Shiva and his wards, when the former subjected the latter to a gruelling test to prove their devotion. I think the member who can discuss the said episode in fine detail is none other than our V_Raghav from the Great State of Tamil Nadu .
Rama<P>Agree, the TCO for a Su 30 MKI would be multiples of that for a LCA and the relaibiltiy of spare parts and supplies may also be a big issue given the financial state of sukhoi<P>Even at US$ 30 mm, I do not see us building up more than a 100 of these planes, probably fewer.<P>Peeyoosh
Why do we have to go in for the turbomecca engines was't the ALH built around the american engine and changing the engine caused lots of problems?? If we wait some more the sanctions will be lifted and we can have the american engines it self.
First let me wait till the LCA-TD2 should fly by 15th August.Then LCA-TD1 should go supersonic and by then LCA-TD3 should be in the skies by then TD2 should have gone supersonic,etc,etc and finally Kaveri should flow smoothly and then IAF should decide to buy LCA.All this should happen by 2004-2005 @least[Give a good name yars]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rama:<BR><A HREF="http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19980706/18755324p.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19980706/18755324p.html</A> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I must've gone mad ... but this report by some Minna Kumar is actually published:<P>"Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is all set to phase out its two-seater advanced helicopter Kiran MK II with the Hindustan Jet Trainer-36 (HJT), a multi-role, short haul commercial aircraft. The aircraft has been designed and developed indigenously at the Aircraft Research Design Centre (ARDC) and will be used as a passenger, cargo and troop carriers."<P>Somebody pls save me!!<BR>
<BR>okay either i am confused as in i don't know that the Kiran MkII is a `two-seater advanced helicopter' and that the HJT-36 is a `short haul haul commercial aircraft".. that is capable of being used "as a passenger, cargo and troop carriers".. <P>or <P>the Indian Express editorial desk has gone completely to sleep. <P>Both possibilities are equally appalling..
Sunilbhai,<BR>Your lack of knowlij is apalling! <BR>This is the country where NBC protected T72's can do "nuclear attacks".<BR>Also where DRDO has only 2 projects on hand=trishul and the pinaka.Of course,all other projects are "delayed".<BR>The only qualification needed to write on defence matters is *none*.<P>Regards,<BR>nitin<BR>
Amitabh,<P> I dont know about the article clearing up the pricing. It dates to when HAL made the proposal, i.e. the HJT-36 cost structure may or may not have changed, hopefully not significantly. OTOH it was the only article I could find, and it did directly quote the MD of HAL on HJT-36 pricing. I should also point out that the article is nuts about the HJT-36 timeline too. HJT-36 was *approved* in 1999, not slated to come into service. And it will *begin* service in 2005, not have replaced all HJt-16's by then.<P> HJT-36 is a program to watch since it seems to be a model of efficiency. Proposed in 98, approved in 99 with a firm order for 225 (hey babus move too!). Full design work in 2000 (ie all major subsystems chosen by then) with first flight slated for 2002. Heavy use of CAD to cut down prototype cycle time. "Partners" instead of "vendors". Slated to go into service in 2005. Admittedly it is no LCA in complexity, but it is still good to see something done in a reasonable timeframe. All power to it!<P>Now if only moved on an AJT..
acc. to a post by Sandeep Unni many moons back there is a multi-pronged 'course' for<BR>budding defence journalists wherein they<BR>are also given run of place to ask and<BR>look around. He himself attended it.<P>But looks like its not a compulsory course.<P>
guys getting back to aviation:<P>Does anyone know the derivation of the numbers being thrown around? Is it fully loaded costs inlcuding R and D, capital costs or is marginal costs? wish we knew whether we are comparing apples and oranges or what.<BR>
I was just wondering does the tvc engines of Su-30 have any implication for MCA? My simple q is whether the mechanical vectoring nozzles of these engines give adequate performance to be installed in an aircraft without a vertical tail?<BR>If it is not so and DRDO is serious about fluidic control then it may mean that MCA is not a serious endeavor at this stage.<BR>
Peeyosh, <P> Just taking a wild guess at this specifically for HJT-36:<P>- News reports talked of a Rs 180 crore *grant* for the development of HJT-36 from<BR>the central government. The wording would suggest that these R&D costs are not to be calculated in the unit cost. <P> Also note that the above report talks about development costs listed separately for a variety of programs (MTA, Shakti etc)<P>- On most other programs HAL talks of *investing* a certain amount of money for production tooling of specific aircraft (eg Su30MKI & LCA in above report).<BR>We haven't heard the figure for HJT-36, but it is reasonable to assume that this is the way they work.<P> So the guess is that development costs are underwritten by the government but capital costs are amortized into the product. I recall reading that HAL is a dividend paying PSU.<P>p.s. I came across a 2000 report that talks of the HJT-36 unit cost being Rs 18 crores.<BR>More credible because by this time the expensive subsystems had possibly been chosen. If so, HJT-36 would be on time *and* on budget.
This news item fits in here - the HJT may be our AJT?<P>Vick<BR> Member <BR> posted 18-07-2001 14:56 <P> A small piece on the IAF and the trainer problems<BR> <A HREF="http://www.the-week.com/21jul22/events2.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.the-week.com/21jul22/events2.htm</A>
Rama<P>Buy what you say, jsut wish someone would give hard data.<P>Wonder where ADA/HAL would have been if they had started off with the HJT-36 and a AJT instead of the LCA?<P>Any public dope on TD-2? Is it the version with the leading edhe control surfaces? I can't wait to see that one happen.<P>Peeyoosh
<I>>>Any public dope on TD-2? Is it the version with the leading edhe control surfaces? I can't wait to see that one happen.</I><P>TD-2 does indeed have the leading edge control surfaces, but they will be fixed instead of movable if the TD-2 flies before August 15 (the date is due to political pressure). I don't think they will be loading the changes to the FBW software for its first flight.<BR>
Shiv,<P> HJT may be AJT: Informed speculation on your part or expression of hope or what?<BR>While it can be argued that some of the early AJT curriculum may be fulfilled on an IJT and hence reduce the number of AJTs etc - doesnt it appear that they are two distinct classes of aircraft. (If nothing else, HJT-36 has one Larzac, while Alphajet and MigAT have two, this should illustrate that there is a difference).<P>No mention has ever been made of a follow on to HJT-36, re-using as much as possible to have an indigenous AJT. <P>p.s. It seems like MigAT shares some of the major $ subsystems with HJT-36. This would be the engine, the ejection seats, and possibly some avionics since they both use components from Thales? Would be nice to take over the MigAT program lock, stock and barrel.
LCA composites design software licensed to Parametric Technology Corp, makers of Pro/E MCAD software<BR> <A HREF="http://www.defenceindia.com/test1/templ.php3?filename=news26.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.defenceindia.com/test1/templ.php3?filename=news26.html</A>
A whole new dimension to the phrase "Taken for a ride".<P><BR>India unveils reusable space plane 'Avatar'<BR> <A HREF="http://news.indya.com/technology1307avatar.html" TARGET=_blank>http://news.indya.com/technology1307avatar.html</A> <P>"......Indian scientists have designed a reusable space plane, Avatar, which they say can launch satellites at extremely low cost and also <B> take tourists on a ride </B>into space...."<BR> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by jairaj (edited 21-07-2001).]
"We have a design for a space plane. The US, Russia, Japan, Germany and France have the critical technologies and the money. What we need is a global approach to make low cost access to space possible," Gopalaswami said. <P>I, RonyKJ R&D Organization, also have a design for a single stage to interplanetary orbit vehicle. This vehicle called the Akashganga can take off from a conventional runway and a combination of turbo, ram and scram jet can reach geostationary orbit. After that it deploys a solar sail and travels to the moon. It can offload passengers from earth there if a runway if built on the moon. If there are any beings on the moon who would like a ride, they can hop on for $1299 each and the vehicle can continue to Mars. Depending on the weather on Mars, it may or may not land there. After that it will use nuclear and ion propulsion to go to Alpha Centauri. Due to relativistic effects, the passengers on return will feel that they were away for a few nights and can continue their productive lives on earth doing new research. All technologies for this vehicle have been proven in conceptual sketches. Now all that is needed is for the rich nations to provide some money so that a poor country like India can build it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RonyKJ:<BR><B>This is probably why...<BR> <A HREF="http://www.aermacchi.it/Aircraft/aircraft.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.aermacchi.it/Aircraft/aircraft.htm</A> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You'll note that they have renamed the AEM/Yak-130 to the M-346 and have it completely spec'd out with non-Russian components (Honeywell engines, Euro electronics, etc). They did well to get that design off the Russians when they decided to bail.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.aermacchi.it/Aircraft/M-346/m-346.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.aermacchi.it/Aircraft/M-346/m-346.htm</A>
I wish we had done the same to the Mig-AT four or five years ago! From all accounts it seems like a decent AJT candidate with only uncertanities about a market.<P>IAF can fix that and HAL can get some more of those $'s circulating in the Indian economy.
<A HREF="http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/july26/n5.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/july26/n5.htm</A> <P>=============<P>...<P>UZBEK AIRCRAFT: India will be acquiring six IL-78 Flight Refuelling Aircraft (FAR) from Uzbekistan, Mr Jaswant Singh said in another reply.<BR>An agreement to get these aircraft was signed in February this year.<P>...<BR>===========<P>
For all those nay-sayers (regarding LCA), the article should be something of an eye-opener.<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Saab, Dassault Upgrade Gripen, Rafale Fighters <a href="http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_military.jsp?view=story&id=news/mawk0711.xml">Link</a> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Excerpts:<BR>"Rather than a preplanned, mid-life update, Sweden plans a process of continually inserting new technologies into the multirole Gripen" - Which IMHO is quite normal ... you build-up the basic A/C first and then "add teeth" to it in form of upgrades. Try doing everything in one shot and you might end-up with a fighter, with state-of-the-art subsystems that doesn't fly. <P>" ... include a night-vision-compatible cockpit, GPS integration, color displays and an air-to-air refueling capability ..." - mind you all these are already available in LCA!!<P>" ... enhanced electronic warfare systems, including laser and missile approach warning systems and towed decoys infrared search-and-track system ..." and "actively scanned-array radar" - read somewhere that something similiar is being thought for LCA (in form of subsystems to be available at a later date).<P>But the interesting piece is: "... two data links, one for exchanging real-time combat information between other Gripen aircraft operating in formation and another to exchange data with external sources ..." - already available in Gripen. <BR>Does LCA also have a similiar system??<P><BR>[This message has been edited by maitya (edited 28-07-2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by shiv (edited 12-08-2001).]
Bad news all around. Is this the end of the Hawk AJT?<P><h4>Kargil forgotten, jet trainers grounded </h4><BR> <BR>MANOJ JOSHI<BR> <BR>NEW DELHI: Two years after Kargil put it on the acquisition fast-track, the Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) deal has been grounded.<BR> <A HREF="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=69203487" TARGET=_blank>http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=69203487</A> <BR>
ISRO developing GPS for India using INSAT<BR> <A HREF="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=1333974674" TARGET=_blank>http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=1333974674</A>
ISRO suggests ways to reduce space debris<BR> <A HREF="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=965601904" TARGET=_blank>http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=965601904</A>
Some info on Swati!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Directorate General of Civil Aviation has taken steps to procure 40 ‘Swati’ Light Trainer aircraft from M/s. Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL), Hardwar to allot these aircraft to flying clubs for training purposes. An amount of Rs. 6.00 crore has been advanced to M/s. BHEL for this purpose and 17 ‘Swati’ aircraft have been delivered so far. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <A HREF="http://pib.nic.in/archieve/lreleng/lyr2000/rnov2000/r30112000.html" TARGET=_blank>http://pib.nic.in/archieve/lreleng/lyr2000/rnov2000/r30112000.html</A> <P>however, CAG has a very Damning report on BHEL Swati project and the above order. <A HREF="http://www.cagindia.org/reports/civil/1995_book1/chapter5.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.cagindia.org/reports/civil/1995_book1/chapter5.htm</A> <P>Both are govt. news-releases so don't know what to believe!! <P>Viator is made by TAAL in collaboration with Partenavia of Italy. <A HREF="http://www.tanejaaerospace.com/pages/product.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.tanejaaerospace.com/pages/product.html</A> <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by durvasa (edited 06-08-2001).]
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