MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

putnanja
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MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby putnanja » 12 Dec 2008 02:49

Mumbai siege casts spotlight on crisis within NSG

Mumbai siege casts spotlight on crisis within NSG



Praveen Swami



Conventional military thinking dominates elite force, insiders say





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NSG’s handling of Mumbai rescue operation was marred by tactical errors and lapses of judgment

Commandos who entered the hotels did not have ballistic shields and bullet-proof helmets


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MUMBAI: Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram’s decision to create new National Security Guards centres across India has been greeted with applause by residents of major cities, who believe the decision will enhance their security against terrorist attacks. But the decision has worried many within the organisation, and experts in other elite special forces, who say the crack organisation needs to address simmering internal problems before entering a phase of expansion.

Despite demonstrating exceptional valour during last month’s terrorist siege in Mumbai — in circumstances its commandos had never anticipated or trained for — the NSG’s handling of the rescue operation was marred by tactical errors and lapses of judgment. For 60 hours, the NSG combed the Taj Mahal hotel and Oberoi hotel room-by-room, using grenades and even Molotov cocktails to flush out the terrorists. These tactics, special forces experts told The Hindu, were straight out of the Indian Army’s urban warfare drills, not modern hostage-rescue practice.

Down to their boots — the clunky, leather shoes used by soldiers, not the lightweight rubber-soled footwear used by special forces worldwide — the NSG looked like conventional soldiers, not a crack anti-terrorist unit. The commandos who entered the Taj Mahal and Oberoi hotels did not possess ballistic shields, which would have let them move through the corridors without fear of being shot. Nor did they have hydraulic door openers to gain access to rooms without using explosives. They had no bullet-proof helmets and no special communication equipment that allows for easy communication even during the noise of battle.

Infantry domination


Part of the problem, NSG insiders say, is that the organisation is increasingly dominated by infantry officers, rather than special forces personnel. Major-General A.K. Gupta, the Inspector-General in charge of operations, is from the Grenadiers Regiment while his deputy, Brigadier Govind Sisodia, is from the Sikh Regiment. Force Commander Brigadier S.C. Rangi, who heads the 2 SAG and 3 SRG, is from the Jammu and Kashmir Rifles while Colonel Anil Kumar, commanding officer of the 52 SAG, is from the Garhwal Rifles. Infantry officers, special forces personnel say, bring with them formidable strengths but also problematical habits of a lifetime — notably privileging hierarchy and structure over the unique characteristics of aggression and innovation that a commando must have.

It is unclear why the NSG has acquired an increasingly conventional-military character. Ironically, large numbers of officers and men from the Indian Army’s seven para-commando battalions serve in counter-terrorism roles in organisations like the Rashtriya Rifles and Assam Rifles.

An NSG officer who spoke to The Hindu commented that outdated training practices had also manifested themselves in tactical errors during the Mumbai siege, notably allowing the terrorists inside the Taj Mahal Hotel continued mobility between floors. “When you operate in a high-rise building,” the officer said, “the first thing that needs to be done is to secure the stairwells, and position yourself to shoot at anyone moving in the corridors. That way, you deny the terrorist mobility — which means half the battle is won. Instead we used tactics appropriate to combing a mountain for terrorists.”

Internal politics


Internal politics has also hit the NSG hard. From its inception, the organisation, which is commanded by an Indian Police Service officer of the rank of Director-General and is made up of personnel drawn from the Army, the police, and the paramilitary services, has suffered from inter-service tensions. Army officers who command the NSG’s operational arms have often developed adversarial relationships with their counterparts drawn from the IPS, who though several years junior in service typically enjoy higher rank.

In addition, the organisation has faced problems with synergising its twin divisions, the Special Rangers Groups made up of police and paramilitary personnel and given cordoning tasks, and the Special Action Groups responsible for counter-terrorism and anti-hijacking duties.

NSG officials say the route to building a world-class counter-terrorism organisation lies in developing a core of professionals who see themselves as members of a dedicated special force, not soldiers or policemen on deputation.


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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby bart » 12 Dec 2008 03:05

pmund wrote:Def a Marco, not an army guy. Forget the camos, look at the epaulettes. Maybe he is an ex-NDA and sleeps in Camos :P so he just rolled off his bed and into the war. He is not injured, got a couple more pics of the same guy. As far as my info goes, no Marco was injured in the attack


2 Marcos were injured in the initial operation, the head of the IN Western Command said so himself on TV.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby ssiva » 12 Dec 2008 04:30

Some of The evident drawbacks in this operation:

1. Blast Proof and Night vision Gogles. I don't know why this was not provided to our NSG/MARCOS. Which world are these guys asked to live in. It is really shameful and i think somebody should ask the senior officers and ministers to serve in similar conditions to understand the pain. I remember George Fernandes did something like this to ensure Kargil and Siachin soldiers are provided with proper equipment/dresses.

2. Proper Communication system - this is crucial so that NSG team can communicate with each other. I did not see this and the NSG team was looking definately like a 1950 soldiers.

3. Proper Boots with comes inbuilt with mine detection and blast proof.

4. Boots which supports climbing on the verticals walls.

5. Helmet which is now days called as integrated helmet system which has - vision control, communication system, all direction monitoring.

6. Why were they not using remotely operated robots to get intelligence. What was stopping them, when i see DRDO has developed such systems, why were they not put into use.

7. Anti Material rifle, Firelocating radars - why these systems were not used.

8. Why couldn't we immediately use the hotel map and convert it into a softare map and use it in SATHI systems for finding path within the hotel. These things are very much possible but i can see NSG is still being headed by people who are in 1950;s mode.

9. I feel it was a total let down from all grounds. To kill 10 terrorists, we lost commandos, and each of these commandos are suppose to be equivalent to 100 soldiers.

10. Finally, our POLICE force - the corruption needs to go off. Proper qualified people who are educated should come into these forces. When i see these police people, my blood boils, as they look like a symbol of corruption within INDIA. I am sorry to use this statement but this is reality.

11. I also wonder why they were using roof tops and normal path ways to getinto the hotel. Why were they not using vertical climb equipment to reach different floors simultaneously??? too many questions and too little answer. Also the total failure in every front is visible.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby Div » 12 Dec 2008 05:59

^^ Fire locating radar in a close quarter combat situation? :?:

For everyone bitching about all NSG commandos not having radios, there is a post somewhere in the myriad that talks about the rationale. IIRC, it had something to do with the way the teams are structured (in 3s or 4s) and the fact that in training/trials, radios were found to be too distracting. Instead, they decided to go with a radio per team and the members would communicate amongst themselves with hand signals.

3. Proper Boots with comes inbuilt with mine detection and blast proof.

4. Boots which supports climbing on the verticals walls.


:shock:

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby VikramS » 12 Dec 2008 06:49

The comment about restricting mobility by securing stair-wells in 'The Hindu' article is very important. The game would have been up much sooner if the terrorists were boxed in. They were not. This was something so elementary that I am not sure why they did not do it. Clearly there is something I am missing but what is it?

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby putnanja » 12 Dec 2008 07:10

ssiva wrote:Some of The evident drawbacks in this operation:


2. Proper Communication system - this is crucial so that NSG team can communicate with each other. I did not see this and the NSG team was looking definately like a 1950 soldiers.

3. Proper Boots with comes inbuilt with mine detection and blast proof.

4. Boots which supports climbing on the verticals walls.

5. Helmet which is now days called as integrated helmet system which has - vision control, communication system, all direction monitoring.

6. Why were they not using remotely operated robots to get intelligence. What was stopping them, when i see DRDO has developed such systems, why were they not put into use.

7. Anti Material rifle, Firelocating radars - why these systems were not used.

8. Why couldn't we immediately use the hotel map and convert it into a softare map and use it in SATHI systems for finding path within the hotel. These things are very much possible but i can see NSG is still being headed by people who are in 1950;s mode.


11. I also wonder why they were using roof tops and normal path ways to getinto the hotel. Why were they not using vertical climb equipment to reach different floors simultaneously??? too many questions and too little answer. Also the total failure in every front is visible.



How old are you?

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby Rahul M » 12 Dec 2008 07:46

I had decided to go soft on discussion on this thread when the ops were over thinking that the OT discussions could be split off when all the articles and pics were collected.

by discussions I certainly didn't have spiderman gear in mind ! :rotfl:
......
4. Boots which supports climbing on the verticals walls.


guys, do we expect any more relevant articles to crop up or should I lock this up now ?
advises plz !

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby andy B » 12 Dec 2008 07:57

Rahul lock it up mate,

After repeatedly being told and informed people keep discussing posting wish lists on what the Marcos and NSG should have...blah...blah...blah.

(I myself have violated that rule once as well)

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby kaangeya » 12 Dec 2008 09:40

Forget the admins, but I gotta respond to this very ill-informed post by Praveen Swami who is otherwise well informed about the insides of terrorist organizations and their operations.

He is being very naive and even worse to talk about infantry officers introducing a hierarchical and rank bound culture into the NSG. If anything, it is the IA that being officer centric has seen a disproportionately high level of officer casualties, with officders leading from the front. The police forces in contrast at the higher levels are riven with political skulduggery. It is true that as usual this time the police when it came to the crunch rose to a man and tackled the terrorists with great courage. But we aren't talking about extreme situations now. What about the routine? The police leadership takes its own for granted. Over 20 years ago I once happened to fly from Bhopal to Bombay. On the plane were the DG Police of MP and a Brigadier. After we landed and deplaned at Bombay there was a retinue from the Maharashtra Police waiting for the DGP as well as a smaller group for the Brigadier. Short of carrying him on their shoulders the Mah Police retinue did everything for the MP DGP, taking his baggage ticket and rushing around for the man's luggage. As he walked out of the baggage area a Mah Police havildar waiting at the entrance snapped out a smart salute to which much to my disappaointment the MP DGP responded with a limp casual wave of his hand not even turning towards his fellow policeman. In contrast the Brigadier walking erect and ramrod stiff waited with his aide for the baggage picked it up himself and exchanged awesome salutes with the the 3 ORs and the young Lt. waiting for him at the baggage exit. The contrast was so striking.

I can understand why the army leadership at the NSG would like to insulate their own from the machinations of politicians who have bent the police forces to their will. According to some wags the 1000 odd legislators of New Delhi have over 14,000 spec force personnel guarding them. A problem with the police part of the NSG is it has gone rusty providing VIP security. The NSG SAG in contrast (with the Marcos) has been working v. hard for years now on all sorts of Ops. I don't pay much credence to those criticisms of the Op in Bombay by Praveen Swami's unnamed contact in the NSG. The said NSG officer in likening the method of the operation to a mountain clearing Op reveals that he knows nothing about mountain ops! And for heaven's sake why don't these dorks understand that the NSG were not simply trying to clear thugs but recuse hostages and kill the thugs?

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby bhavin » 12 Dec 2008 10:04

VikramS wrote:The comment about restricting mobility by securing stair-wells in 'The Hindu' article is very important. The game would have been up much sooner if the terrorists were boxed in. They were not. This was something so elementary that I am not sure why they did not do it. Clearly there is something I am missing but what is it?


Just take one case - the hotel with 18 storeys. If NSG has to secure the stairwells, they would have to station at least 1 person at each door to stairwell on each floor... let's say that they have combed some part of the hotel and has to put just 15 soldiers for 1 stairwell wholly... if the hotel has 2 stairwells it means that 30 soldiers are put there...

Apart from stairs, what about elevators ?? In a posh hotel like this there would be atleast two pairs of elevators so that the guests don't have to walk very far to get to the elevators... assuming the same situation as above they would need at least another 30 soldiers to secure the elevators...

Thus in just one building, 60 commandos are occupied with securing the stairwells and elevators...

I seriously doubt that NSG had this kind of manpower to spare...

Do point out the fallacies in the above scenario so that we try and understand some of the reasons why NSG did what they did.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby k prasad » 12 Dec 2008 10:25

For those talking about NVGs and some other points about NSG not being well equipped, I think we need to bring a few points to note.

1. NVGs right now are quite heavy to operate in confined spaces, and given the mobility required, will bog down the commando and prevent easy movement, especially of the head.

2. Given their extremely narrow Field of View (14-20 degrees usually), they become a danger in CQB. If you're looking in those 20 degrees, and a terrorist sneaks up from ur 3 or 9 o clock, you're dead meat.

3. Present day NVGs do take some time to readjust from bright conditions, especially the sort of flashes from gunfire, flashbangs and grenades.... not a great idea to remain blind for a few seconds in the middle of a furious gunfight.

4. I am yet to see any counter-terrorism group use NVGs, except for their surveillance and snipers. If someone can point out if anyone does use them, I'd be grateful.

5. NVGs and HHTIs were used in the ops, as pictures have proved.

Coming to the window grills, I think that given the fact that almost all Indian buildings have metal grills, NSG should and would have some solution to them.... and not just the long rod thingy they were using. NSG should have had some solution to that... for eg, practicing for assaults on trains, how would they have planned to get through the grills?

The point about sign language unfortunately shows that the ppl making them are themselves deaf and dumb (sorry for the jibe, but couldn't resist). ALL counter terrorism forces use signs to communicate in the middle of CQB, as do many trained police forces, SWAT, Army, etc, INCLUDING in developing countries. If you guys had noticed the hollywood movies you were fed on more closely, you'd have noticed that by now. The lack of VOXs was a tactical decision, and in light of this incident, may change. Nothing to criticize there, as poster before has pointed out...


I think this thread really calls from an informed post by any of the resident experts in mil. tactics about why NSG did what they did in Nariman, Taj and Oberoi, including an honest appraisal of their failings. We shouldn't be scared to call a spade a spade... That should answer most of the fallacies that are being propagated through this thread. Could RayC saar, Pmundji or anyone else plz oblige....


And P.S., An article in Day before's (or was it before that) ToI about NSG training mentioned that one ITALIAN instructor would test the endurance of the trainees by having unknown ppl beat them up and see how much they could take.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby KiranM » 12 Dec 2008 10:39

Sorry Rahul and other Adminullahs, sometimes one has to fight fire with fire.

SSiva, i dont know from where you picked such stuff or you made up on your own. Please see my counters to your point from an arm chair perspective and little bit of googling.

ssiva wrote:Some of The evident drawbacks in this operation:

1. Blast Proof and Night vision Gogles. I don't know why this was not provided to our NSG/MARCOS. Which world are these guys asked to live in. It is really shameful and i think somebody should ask the senior officers and ministers to serve in similar conditions to understand the pain. I remember George Fernandes did something like this to ensure Kargil and Siachin soldiers are provided with proper equipment/dresses.


Umpteen number of times it has been discussed in several threads, that NSG did use Night Vision. The only pics we have seen of our commandos were outside the action areas. Just because we dont see NVGs strapped to their head does not mean they did not use it. They could have packed it back inside to prevent unwanted damage. There is also a pic of an NSG commando in this very thread with an NVG hung around his neck. Also NVG is not a super duper vision which makes you see through walls or in any degree of darkness. NVG magnifies starlight / moonlight to provide vision. I dont think the buildings assualted have open roofs to let moonlight/ starlight through. Even if the NVGs are used, usually the whole team wouldnt use it. All the terrorist has to do is switch on the room lights, when NSG enters, to cause temporary blindness. Blindness is caused by NVG magnifying the room light which is several 1000 times intense than moonlight/ starlight. So it can pay to not use NVGs sometimes.

ssiva wrote:2. Proper Communication system - this is crucial so that NSG team can communicate with each other. I did not see this and the NSG team was looking definately like a 1950 soldiers.


This again has been discussed several times. The rationale was only the Team Leader will use hands free radio (voice over switch) to communicate. If all of the commandos used radios, there will be intense radio traffic, sometimes this can prevent essential communications. In some situations, NSG might have been just few meters away from the terrorists. In that case, NSG would not want to give away the plans by talking over radio/ comm. Hence, they used hand signals.

ssiva wrote:3. Proper Boots with comes inbuilt with mine detection and blast proof.


The kind of boots you are talking about are used by Army Engineers for mine clearance. Definitely not mobile for the kind of ops required. And in a building one should be wary of bombs and not mines. There is a difference between mines and bombs/ IEDs. Please do not throw some statement just for the heck of it.

ssiva wrote:4. Boots which supports climbing on the verticals walls.

Scale walls to do what? To enter each floor from windows? Again his has been discussed to death in several threads. In India, usually windows have metal grills. Its not like in Hollywood where we see people abseiling and breaking into windows without grills. If a commando who scaled a wall is busy cutting a grill, all a terrorist has to do is nudge him to make him fall, forget the option of shooting him.

ssiva wrote:5. Helmet which is now days called as integrated helmet system which has - vision control, communication system, all direction monitoring.

Any helmet restricts your field of view. If you ride a bike with and without helmet, you will know. However, helmet imparts certain level of safety. So the kind of helmet used, if at all it is used, is a trade off between several factors depending on the situation. I certainly didnt understand what you mean by all direction monitoring. Only combat pilots wear that kind of helmet. And their helmet is connected to the aircraft subsystems to provide that vision control and all direction monitoring (aka helmet mounted display). And it is one helluva heavy thing. Certainly not something to be used by an assaulting soldier.

ssiva wrote:6. Why were they not using remotely operated robots to get intelligence. What was stopping them, when i see DRDO has developed such systems, why were they not put into use.

From what I remember seeing such systems, they are not ideal for use in building for their size and bulk. If at all there are such ideal systems, they might not have been integrated with the training. And I dont understand what is this fetish for robots. They can be of help but they are not the answer to all the prayers. If someone can hide from direct human vision, is it difficult for them to hide from a robot which is controlled by a human using the restricted camera fed vision from that robot? Also, it is not like the terrorists will sit idle when the robot comes looking for them.

ssiva wrote:7. Anti Material rifle, Firelocating radars - why these systems were not used.

Firelocating radars, wow!! And how are these supposed to penetrate through walls, furnitures and what not to detect the bullet? And in the close confines how are these to distinguish between the bullets fired by NSG and that fired by terrorists? Please think before you post such suggestions. Fire direction finding equipment are usually used to find snipers firing in an open area from a long range. Not for CQB ops.
Anti-material rifles must be used along with Thermal Imagers (TI). TI uses body heat to detect. How can a sniper distinguish between the terrorist and a hostage?
Again, TI and also the bullet of the anti-material rifle can penetrate wall of only certain thickness. Surely not the stone buit structure of the Taj hotel.

ssiva wrote:8. Why couldn't we immediately use the hotel map and convert it into a softare map and use it in SATHI systems for finding path within the hotel. These things are very much possible but i can see NSG is still being headed by people who are in 1950;s mode.

I didnt know hotel maps were available in GIS format which could be integrated into a software on the spot. Wow!! (sarcasm if you dont get it) I think you have seen too much of movies, where they scan a map on the spot with some weird light, and voila!! you have the map in the computer telling you automatically where the terrorists are. When NSG does not know if a terroist is around the corner, I think he will prefer to keep is vision up behind the sights of his gun, rather than look into a SATHI system.

ssiva wrote:9. I feel it was a total let down from all grounds. To kill 10 terrorists, we lost commandos, and each of these commandos are suppose to be equivalent to 100 soldiers.

This is pure logic Paki Army uses to say 1 Paki soldier = 100 Indian soldiers. Commando training is used to prepare for all eventualities. But commandos are still humans. Not just humans, any system can have a weakness. The commandos who martyred/ injured due to circumstances/ situation that went beyond their control. we cannot put a quantifiable figure and calculate to say for Y training they should have killed X terrorists.

ssiva wrote:11. I also wonder why they were using roof tops and normal path ways to getinto the hotel. Why were they not using vertical climb equipment to reach different floors simultaneously??? too many questions and too little answer. Also the total failure in every front is visible.

This again has been discussed to death. please refer to point 4. I am not aware of any climb equipment which transports you to a given floor by pressing a button, through walls/ floors/ ceilings between floors.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby Anshul » 12 Dec 2008 14:05

Someone has been slaughtered :rotfl: !

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby Rishirishi » 12 Dec 2008 14:27

kaangeya wrote:
From the transcripts it seems that the training and tactics are rather adhoc. There seems to be a lack of equipment and contingency planning.
:roll:

More experienced men would hold judgment than make such sweeping statements. So you want to use nerve gas in a wide open interior space that is aflame with the windows blown out? :rotfl:

Your understanding of urban counter-terror ops seems ad hoc :lol:


How much do you know about counter terror, other then reading some online articles.

You must have heard of CS gas (teargas), is it not used in wide areas :rotfl:

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby andy B » 12 Dec 2008 15:05

^^^
What part of News and Pics only do people not understand here???
Rishi if you want to argue I suggest you take the discussion to the spec forces thread, this thread is just getting congested with personal discussions rather than meaningful pieces of information.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby kaangeya » 12 Dec 2008 19:22

How much do you know about counter terror, other then reading some online articles. :((


Enough to call out your ignorance :P

Praveen Swami is BSing again. SWAT teams that I know wear sensible sealed all weather boots, nothing magical about them. And who is this unnamed expert he is talking to? Has anyone of these guys seen a SWAT officer up close? SWAT and urban counter terror doctrine may differ from infantry doctrine, but still may not lead to great differences in strategy or tactics. In the US City PD SWAT teams train on refreshers with the FBI and some times with military police's own QRTs that are meant to run counter terror ops in military bases or garrisons - closely approximating to typical civilian urban environments. Praveen is talking about ballistic shields? How many does he want, 400? 500? And then what about the mobility? Has he every thought how to run after a terrorist holding a shield in front of you? And what is that hydraulic ram? You have a standard battering ram and crowbars and stun grenades. At times it could be faster and even safer to use the battering ram and crowbar than to set explosive door frame charges - run with the ram with the buddy providing cover or rn up to the door place the charges, step back and blow it up? Praveen is nitpicking about minor details and has got a bee in his bonnet about infantry tactics, without the slightest idea of what exactly happened at the scene of gthe operation. That is also called talking throgh your place where the sun don't shine :P Praveen is fast turning into a Sunil Dasgupta of "marching up the Kargil hill slopes" fame.

This is an Op where there wasn't a single blue-on-blue or blue-on-white (noncombatant) casualty. What is this nonsense that the Dorks are writing about?

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby Anshul » 12 Dec 2008 19:44

kaangeya wrote:
How much do you know about counter terror, other then reading some online articles. :((


Enough to call out your ignorance :P

Praveen Swami is BSing again. SWAT teams that I know wear sensible sealed all weather boots, nothing magical about them. And who is this unnamed expert he is talking to? Has anyone of these guys seen a SWAT officer up close? SWAT and urban counter terror doctrine may differ from infantry doctrine, but still may not lead to great differences in strategy or tactics. In the US City PD SWAT teams train on refreshers with the FBI and some times with military police's own QRTs that are meant to run counter terror ops in military bases or garrisons - closely approximating to typical civilian urban environments. Praveen is talking about ballistic shields? How many does he want, 400? 500? And then what about the mobility? Has he every thought how to run after a terrorist holding a shield in front of you? And what is that hydraulic ram? You have a standard battering ram and crowbars and stun grenades. At times it could be faster and even safer to use the battering ram and crowbar than to set explosive door frame charges - run with the ram with the buddy providing cover or rn up to the door place the charges, step back and blow it up? Praveen is nitpicking about minor details and has got a bee in his bonnet about infantry tactics, without the slightest idea of what exactly happened at the scene of gthe operation. That is also called talking throgh your place where the sun don't shine :P Praveen is fast turning into a Sunil Dasgupta of "marching up the Kargil hill slopes" fame.

This is an Op where there wasn't a single blue-on-blue or blue-on-white (noncombatant) casualty. What is this nonsense that the Dorks are writing about?


You need to understand the Dork psychology.Its a pure bread and butter effort.They need to take care that they write up something that looks well researched(with the SWAT bit thrown in) and JANESified.This will ensure that they keep getting paid.The yuppies who read the BS get all charged up and start writing blogs.Quite a vicious cycle :D .

Journalism today is more about cooking the right dish.You need to borrow some meat and add up your own spices.In this case NSG is getting cooked up as it is in demand.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby kaangeya » 12 Dec 2008 20:44

Praveen Swami isn't a run of the mill naysayer and calls a spade a spade - for instance he has been unsparing in rubbishing all the conspiracy theories cooked up over the Bhatla House encounter. But then everyone has an axe to grind. And Swami has his. In India you do have a strong police lobby the best spokesman for which is KPS Gill. To be sure there is no ulteriror motive among these people in playing up the role of police and running down the military. KPS has contributed greatly to hte evolution of CI doctrine. And thanks to him keeping the Army out of policing in Punjab we saw a turning point in the Punjab CI Ops. But that does not require trashing the military.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby ramana » 12 Dec 2008 21:40

RahulM, Please split form the Pravin Swami article and let that be a discussion thread. For there is a need to discuss or else it will be in this thraed.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Dec 2008 21:52

The NSG seems ot be setup as the US Secret Service to provide VIP physical protection and sort of anti-terrorist force. And is under Police leadership. This way it will not do either job well for there are inherent cotnradcitions in the roles and functions of the force.

The anti-terrorist mission is like the US Army Delta Force/SAS and should be a purely Indian Army mission and control. The VIP protection mission should include phsyical security an dliason with IB on threats and perceptions.

So the SPG and SAG sould be bifurcated. Its the SAG that needs all that quick response transport and other systems.

They should become independent as the MARCOS.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Vikram_S » 12 Dec 2008 22:12

rishirishi wrote:

How much do you know about counter terror, other then reading some online articles.

You must have heard of CS gas (teargas), is it not used in wide areas



congratulations. you are now in neck to neck race with ssiva for most stupid post of the year award. but to your credit you have several more flash of genius in LCA thread which were equally great

so - NSG go into a building with unknown number of hostages, with wounded ones being definite possibility, elderly victims and they should use nerve gas. or tear gas. and what if terrorists already have gas masks? and break windows for dilution of gas? to make the gas ineffective and this great idea end up killing more hostages who now cannot be rescued since they are either unconscious especially in areas where there is fire

please spare all of us from your increasingly obnoxious and stupid posts
just because you are of indian origin and "proud" does not mean you subject us to this mental torture
i am reasonably sure if this had happened in most euro countries the authorities would have been in deep trouble

and those who are claiming s unnikrishnan did not wear NIJ3 armor and was killed, is there an eyewitness account of how it happened? where did the bullets strike were grenades involved? people seem to think BPJ are invulnerable
they are not!!
in Iraq level 3 Interceptor armor has been proven to be problematic because bullet can still come in via armpits, via angled deflections - soldiers donot like 100% protection because it compromises mobility

second, about the loss of eye of AK Singh - blast proof spectacles? what are we talking about -10 kg bullet proof glass in front of the eye? because blast proof goggles will also get penetrated by grenade splinters at close range
they are mostly used for dust/light protection from light splinters far away, a grenade nearby and they are useless and ak singh was heavily injured implying close range grenade attack

now you see NYTimes article about the US Taj visitor (indian wife) who has written an eyewitness account of the night fighting at Taj (terrorists and indian troops trying to flank each other in pitch dark), he mentions grenade attacks and one indian commando wounded

that could be AK singh

all the armchair warriors and spiderman who want NSG to climb over walls and fly, try this at home
using NVG is dangerous - you lose night vision and it "Flares" when bombs explode, so NSG would try and use mark 1 vision

wear a dark handkerchief over your eye - to make it totally dark, and then try moving around
forget aiming and fighting
now with eyes closed, try walking around and then think of how the fight occurred

in one night, the NSG forced 2-3 drugged terrorists out of the area of ops and broke them mentally - the NSG troops were not drugged
think about what that means in terms of guts and discipline from sober people who go into a fight

stop your wondering about equipment and this that and think for 10 mins
then come back and consider

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 12 Dec 2008 22:50

uff Vikram! now you've spoiled all our entertainment!! :)

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Vikram_S » 12 Dec 2008 23:11

lalmohanji the spiderman stuff was too much to read
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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby Vikram_S » 12 Dec 2008 23:24

VikramS wrote:The comment about restricting mobility by securing stair-wells in 'The Hindu' article is very important. The game would have been up much sooner if the terrorists were boxed in. They were not. This was something so elementary that I am not sure why they did not do it. Clearly there is something I am missing but what is it?


200 commandos ordered by expert military CM vilasrao deshmukh
3 hostage areas with over 1000 rooms between them
how many people are left for nakabandi?

only option is to keep the battle fast
multiple teams on multiple floor
keep pushing terrorists away
evacuate hostages, clear rooms
repeat again and again

once remaining 247 commandos were brought on second phase of op - later in day- pls remember what is written - NSG knew hostages were executed after NSG broke the terrorists mentally in the "battle of chambers" in TAJ on first night and then later in day
so then the NSG pushed them into a "corner" and killed them

that is only possible if every corner is secured
so ops had 2 phases in Taj

first when limited number of NSG troops took on the entire task with MARCOS and where terrorists keep attacking back on first day as NSG will not fully prosecute action because of hostages
and some slip through unguarded stairwells/ ladder between floors to pull these stunts as the 2-3 NSG teams are moving on different floors

phase 2, when enough men are there to secure each area and NSG also get to know all remaining hostages (~20) are dead (executed by terrorist when their morale went low) and NSG decision is made to kill the terrorists at all cost

pls read the battle in which last terrorist is killed, havaldar gets grenaded, clothes torn
the havaldar stapled his pants, returned to fight with burnt face and killed the last terrorist, the famous flying pig

there is no book on tactics - CQB is ever changing
all plans go to heck in first few minutes - as famous saying says
so what is left is ingenuity and confidence (reinforced by training) and guts and finally discipline (to face odds which are beyond call and endure)

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby sunilUpa » 13 Dec 2008 00:57

Sigh, Old Taj (Heritage) has a rather unique staircase, one that goes all the way to the dome, with wide landings at each floor. Add multiple fire exists.

Typical (hollywood) tactics are of little use in Taj. Look at the contrast b/w Oberoi and Taj.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Sanjay » 13 Dec 2008 04:03

To add to the comments, no evidence that NSG was not using NIJ 3 protection - would be surprised if they weren't. To those who ask about respirators, the NSG used a Finnish model until recently. In approx 2002-2005 a tender was floated to possibly replace 1100 of them with Kareta Novas - the standard NBC mask used by the Indian armed forces.

Gas is not a cure all. Nerve gas ? Even a soporific gas can create serious problems - witness the fiasco in Moscow where the commando assault killed more hostages than the terrorists. Approval was given for the NSG to use this in certain circumstances but it should also be pointed out that it may have further complicated any hostage rescue.

Praveen Swami is at his semi-accurate best again. Special Forces units are not universally trained for HRT or urban combat. Apparently only Seal Team 5 and one detachment in Delta are so trained but allegedly the best US unit remains the FBI hostage rescue team.

By all means refer to equipment that could be added to the current inventory, but let us not lose sight that I seriously doubt if any of this would have reduced either casualties or time. Let's take hydraulic entry devices - you still have to get to the door and you lose any of the disorientation advantages of dynamic entry using explosives.

Ramana, only 1/7 of the NSG is involved in VVIP duties. I do not approve of this, but to say that it impacts on anything other than morale may be a stretch.

In terms of equipment, I cannot say the NSG is badly equipped. There are some areas that need improvement and can be dealt with expeditiously. The media is going overboard in its suggestions.

One thing to note - I have seen reports that would suggest two teams of 25 NSG commandos were deployed into each hotel. Considering there was some transfer of units, plus the snipers, communications and coordination teams etc, is it not possible that at any given time only about 50 commandos were ever fully enagaged in clearing the hotels ? Again reports suggest only 16 MARCOs used along with 55 army commandos.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby VikramS » 13 Dec 2008 05:33

Vikram_S:

1. Could you tell me more about the Battle of Chambers? I do know that some MP called live TV and said that a large number of guests had secured themselves in the Chambers, inviting the pigs there. Anything more, a link perhaps? I had read an interview where an NSG soldier stated that after the pig's morale broke, they started executing hostages. I have not read anything more about it but do wonder how the good guys knew that the pigs were killing hostages, but could not intervene (storming etc.).

2. Man power constraints is a factor I had not considered. For things like guarding stairwells and elevators, the NSG could have used Army soldiers. Guarding the exits does not require the same skills as CQB. You can position yourself strategically to cover anyone coming through the doors. They could have put a few soldiers in each elevator car, assuming they hadn't already been shut down.

3. I do realize that the first hour or two of the clean-up may not have provided the opportunity to box the bad guys, but what after that? I think one reason was perhaps the lack of definite intel on the terrorists.The number of pigs was not clear and hence the operation not as well organized as it would be if the knowledge was more precise.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby krishnan » 13 Dec 2008 11:07

So the admins gave up and changed the thread title :P

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 13 Dec 2008 11:32

this is a new one actually !

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby krishnan » 13 Dec 2008 11:34

yeah , ok

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby neerajb » 13 Dec 2008 15:15

Vikram_S wrote:second, about the loss of eye of AK Singh - blast proof spectacles? what are we talking about -10 kg bullet proof glass in front of the eye? because blast proof goggles will also get penetrated by grenade splinters at close range
they are mostly used for dust/light protection from light splinters far away, a grenade nearby and they are useless and ak singh was heavily injured implying close range grenade attack


We have personal friends that have both eyes today because their Oakley eyewear stopped a fragment from an IED or RPG.


Reduced height for better interface to helmet
• Refractive Power, Prismatic Power, Astigmatism and Optical Clarity meet or exceed ANSI Z87.1- 2003 requirements
• Haze less than 3%.
Anti-Fog hard coated lens
• Laser protective lens option
• Low profile closed cell face foam for closer fit and improved sweat control
• Temporal strap buckles designed to avoid interference with helmet straps
Meets or exceeds ANSI Z87.1- 2003 requirements for High Velocity and High Mass Impact


http://www.diamondbacktactical.com/Oakl ... 4C194.aspx

Vikram your this arguement is purley senseless. Everything has a limitation, even the BPJs say that they will protect you from pistol rounds from atleast 5 meters and rifile rounds from 10 meters but this doesn't mean that one should stop wearing them. Similarly military goggles also provide a fair amount of protection. This is no excuse of not providing them with this simple and inexpensive protective gear. Doctor says that splinter caused damage to his optic nerve, now this implies the fragment was small enough and slow enough to penetrate only soft eye tissue and IMVHO this injury was avoidable. Another is NVG issue, which is quite evident from MARCOs press brief. Again quoting that it will cause blindness during fire and explosions is meaningless as you can always adjust the intensity in an NVG with variable intensity adjustment. Moreover as seen in pics, NSG uses NVG and must have trained with it using guns! Everything has limitations and it's just a question of mere improving tactics when using NVG. IMO NSG and MARCO lack NVGs in sufficient numbers and instead of going into denial mode and rebuffing, we should accept whatever limitations are there in our forces.

Rest spiderman gear and mine detection boots did gave me a laugh.

Cheers....

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Vikram_S » 13 Dec 2008 16:56

neerajbhandari wrote:Vikram your this arguement is purley senseless. Everything has a limitation, even the BPJs say that they will protect you from pistol rounds from atleast 5 meters and rifile rounds from 10 meters but this doesn't mean that one should stop wearing them. Similarly military goggles also provide a fair amount of protection. This is no excuse of not providing them with this simple and inexpensive protective gear. Doctor says that splinter caused damage to his optic nerve, now this implies the fragment was small enough and slow enough to penetrate only soft eye tissue and IMVHO this injury was avoidable. Another is NVG issue, which is quite evident from MARCOs press brief. Again quoting that it will cause blindness during fire and explosions is meaningless as you can always adjust the intensity in an NVG with variable intensity adjustment. Moreover as seen in pics, NSG uses NVG and must have trained with it using guns! Everything has limitations and it's just a question of mere improving tactics when using NVG. IMO NSG and MARCO lack NVGs in sufficient numbers and instead of going into denial mode and rebuffing, we should accept whatever limitations are there in our forces.


before talking of denial and senseless look at your own post. you have taken everything i have said out of context and come back with inane replies which reinforce what i said.

mobility is crucial to special forces or anyone who is doing fast attacks, has to run, and fight.
the entire reason of NSG is to get in, and kill the hostage taker as fast, not be tank taking shots, waiting, waiting and then seeing where target is and blowing him up
dehyrdation is the biggest problem when encased in heavy gear. try talking to veteran of SF ops and soldiers and ask them whether they like the latest wave of super armor, which restricts arm movement and even neck movement. the NSG have gone for a standard BPJ set up which includes a frontal and back armor plate, with ceramic / aramid platefor level 3 protection. it means that the soldier can sprint, fight over a duration of time without lugging too much weight around. it also mean that if a bullet comes from an elevation, or from an angle it can strike him in deltoids, in side, in neck and still get him. this is a conscious decision. that is why pravin swami wrote ballistic shields. they are the only lightweight option that can be used in CQB without each soldier lugging a BPJ of around 10 kgs and tied up like a cocoon in high temperature. but even they have limitation of being useful only in static situation where target is trapped and you need protection. running with ballistic shield and spliter come from other side, it is same old story
the NSG also have higher level BPJ, see image of sniper with PSG-1 in full combat set, it includes groin coverage and even side coverage. for sniper, mobility is not crucial, he can be in stationary position for hour so he has been given that. these decision are not made as jokes, they are carefully thought

also sandeep unni's team did not have radios because NSG exercise with certain country reinforced that belief of tactics and voice comms
more on this if media reports basics, i have no interest in stating this unless it is openly talked

coming to military "goggles" and fair bit of protection. your ANZI impact and single quote from some "friends" in no place rejects what i am saying. that a grenade impact right in front of you, and it will not help a person like AK Singh
high velocity impact for ANZI standard mentioned is 150 fps projectile
average velocity of grenade splinter within 10 mtrs can be many times that (see brassey handbook) early frag grenade also could go over 1000 fps in splinter velocity

about AK singh, selective reading is useless.
the man was hit by 100 splinters and was badly injured (not just eye), is this going to happen if there was a far away attack? this means it was fragmentation grenade nearby and see above

so who is saying dont buy goggles? buy whatever you want and surely it helps, but just remember that in this particular case, it may not have helped and unless we know reality just saying goggles would have prevented it is rushing to conclusions
and goggles are also a problem when using NVG

coming to NVG, you were also saying they dont have NVG, now you are saying they have and now you are claiming not in sufficient numbers? are you joking? did they give you inventory list?
IInd super gen nvg are in mass service in indian army and nsg. they have had access to NVG for many years, from 1st gen, to local produced 2nd gen and now latest

like all passive nv they are of limited use in CQB because they flare out when explosion occurs and soldier has to take risk of having lost night vision. nsg also used HHTI in ops, again these HHTI are sufficient discrimination to make out even hand print on wall in test condition - but that is exactly why terrorist set fire to parts of building
unlike in open spaces, here fire effluents and particulate go around the immediate area, making it hard for even HHTI to look through fire and beyond

i suggest you gear interested persons spend some time with armed forces to understand limitations of gear and technology and what is purchased. 90% of fancy pics shown by TV, pics and even brochure is absolutely useless. every bit of loadout of NSG is carefull optimized from combat knife, to weaponry to training

yes there is equipment that they dont have which can be useful
i personally think more sensors like miniUAVs may come in useful in some conditions (not closed spaces) and other items
but items mentioned are not that great
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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Raj Malhotra » 13 Dec 2008 17:06

NSG requires good equipment but most of the criticism does not take into consideration that terrorists were throwinghand grenades and killing people on sight. This is not conventional hostage situation in which NSG can also obtain good results like Operation Black Thunder - Golden Temple

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Vikram_S » 13 Dec 2008 17:09

vikrams wrote:1. Could you tell me more about the Battle of Chambers? I do know that some MP called live TV and said that a large number of guests had secured themselves in the Chambers, inviting the pigs there. Anything more, a link perhaps? I had read an interview where an NSG soldier stated that after the pig's morale broke, they started executing hostages. I have not read anything more about it but do wonder how the good guys knew that the pigs were killing hostages, but could not intervene (storming etc.).

2. Man power constraints is a factor I had not considered. For things like guarding stairwells and elevators, the NSG could have used Army soldiers. Guarding the exits does not require the same skills as CQB. You can position yourself strategically to cover anyone coming through the doors. They could have put a few soldiers in each elevator car, assuming they hadn't already been shut down.

3. I do realize that the first hour or two of the clean-up may not have provided the opportunity to box the bad guys, but what after that? I think one reason was perhaps the lack of definite intel on the terrorists.The number of pigs was not clear and hence the operation not as well organized as it would be if the knowledge was more precise.


1 per TV statements, they heard single aimed shots through the night and next day as hostages were executed, pretty bad stuff
chambers is exactly what you said about MP, i will try and find the interview of chambers battle and post it, after this the terrorist came and executed people on one side of chambers and then NSG came and there was fight in pitch dark for next side

2. elevator cars are normally consider risky to use at times since if power controls are disabled... and they can be easily attacked (soldier in confined space)

but army was not brought in for this because of training factor i think, simply put, the average jawan is not trained for CQB or work with nsg, and friendly fire is a possibility
by day 2 additional NSG were airlift to mumbai so the manpower issue was also solved
if we see, nariman house attack was then undertaken as the manpower became available, the terrorist were known to have executed hostages so go ahead was given

3. there are several reason why NSG would not have sought final "push" on terrorists - first priority was to get the visitors out, and keep terrorists boxed in away from access to visitor/guest in rooms, critical areas, this was done

if they had gone after terrorists only then there is the problem of leaving guest to fend for themselves and also. what if terrorists are "linked", ie remaining hostages are executed

then there is the issue of firepower, unless terrorists are pushed to a particular sector/area without guests, overwhelming firepower cannot be used

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby neerajb » 13 Dec 2008 19:45

Vikram, Why I am getting this feeling that you haven't read the post properly before replying or I am not conveying my message properly. The lengthy lecture that you have given on bulkiness of BPJ and NSG going in for NIJ3 for mobility is not my contention in the first place.

Vikram your this arguement is purley senseless. Everything has a limitation, even the BPJs say that they will protect you from pistol rounds from atleast 5 meters and rifile rounds from 10 meters but this doesn't mean that one should stop wearing them. Similarly military goggles also provide a fair amount of protection.


By this I meant that like body armour comes with a limited protection similarly military googles also come with restrictions as far as eye protection is concerned but it doesn't mean that one stops using protective eye gear just like one uses BPJs despite limited protection. I nowhere advocated the use of heavy 10 Kg BPJs. Hope now I have made my point more clear.

also sandeep unni's team did not have radios because NSG exercise with certain country reinforced that belief of tactics and voice comms
more on this if media reports basics, i have no interest in stating this unless it is openly talked


I never said anything about radio gear.

coming to military "goggles" and fair bit of protection. your ANZI impact and single quote from some "friends" in no place rejects what i am saying. that a grenade impact right in front of you, and it will not help a person like AK Singh
high velocity impact for ANZI standard mentioned is 150 fps projectile
average velocity of grenade splinter within 10 mtrs can be many times that (see brassey handbook) early frag grenade also could go over 1000 fps in splinter velocity

about AK singh, selective reading is useless.
the man was hit by 100 splinters and was badly injured (not just eye), is this going to happen if there was a far away attack? this means it was fragmentation grenade nearby and see above


I was talking about the eye and not rest of the body as that damage is recoverable but not the eye injury. Moreover my common sense tells me that behind eye you have delicate brain tissue and spinal chord and had it been major splinter injury in eye he would be either paralysed or dead. Where did you read this 100 splinter thing? Please provide link.

coming to NVG, you were also saying they dont have NVG, now you are saying they have and now you are claiming not in sufficient numbers? are you joking? did they give you inventory list?


Again you are twisting what I wanted to say. I said it is apparent that they have NVGs but not in sufficient numbers as evident from MARCO press release. What is so hard in that to understand?

like all passive nv they are of limited use in CQB because they flare out when explosion occurs and soldier has to take risk of having lost night vision.


Haven't you heard of day/night NVGs with variable intensity adjustment. Some have this function automated. Again you haven't read my reply properly.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 13 Dec 2008 22:35

Marcos and NSG are not really specialists in counter terror. Rather they are ment for behind enemy lines, sabotage and recon. Their equipemnt is not for urban warfare and hostage crisis.

I think the there is a need to raise a specialised force within the armed forces, for urban warfare. Some of the capabilities that should be considred include.

+Long distance snipers.
+armoured and bomb proof gear defuse bombs.
+use of gas and other medium to take out the foe.
+use of spy devices as, sound enhancement (you can listen a conversation up to 2 km) and specialised cameras etc.
+specialised communication devices.
+Inteligance devices to tap phones etc.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 13 Dec 2008 22:53

Marcos and NSG are not really specialists in counter terror. Rather they are ment for behind enemy lines, sabotage and recon. Their equipemnt is not for urban warfare and hostage crisis.
sorry, can't resist.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby sunilUpa » 13 Dec 2008 23:35

:rotfl: :rotfl: Noise to signal ratio is through the roof!

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Vikram_S » 14 Dec 2008 00:04

neerajbhandari wrote:By this I meant that like body armour comes with a limited protection similarly military googles also come with restrictions as far as eye protection is concerned but it doesn't mean that one stops using protective eye gear just like one uses BPJs despite limited protection. I nowhere advocated the use of heavy 10 Kg BPJs. Hope now I have made my point more clear.


so why dont you read posts properly before replying? first you cant read into context then jump in and make arrogant replys about senseless and what not. i was replying in specific to a person who said if goggles were worn then AK Singh would not have lost eye. instead, as is clear it can only protect against fragments at 150 fps whereas being in blast circle of grenade can be much worse than that.

I was talking about the eye and not rest of the body as that damage is recoverable but not the eye injury. Moreover my common sense tells me that behind eye you have delicate brain tissue and spinal chord and had it been major splinter injury in eye he would be either paralysed or dead. Where did you read this 100 splinter thing? Please provide link.


you can find the link yourself, it is posted on this very forum for one saying common sense and what not, you seem curiously unaware of information. ak singh has been badly wounded according to interview on TV and another doctor mentioned that despite "intensity of blast" it is good he will recover otherwise. second, it is spinal "cord" not chord, and again unless you know where splinter penetrated from how can you state that it would have defintiely led to brain damage. once again, faulty assumptions should not lead to hasty conclusions


Again you are twisting what I wanted to say. I said it is apparent that they have NVGs but not in sufficient numbers as evident from MARCO press release. What is so hard in that to understand?


which marcos press release speaks of not having sufficient NVG? all they said is it was hard to find these guys at night time and you are extrapolating such claims from there
and that they are not in sufficient numbers? are you aware of inventory holdings of NVG in marcos? if not, please dont talk rubbish and start rumors about MARCOS
fyi both NSG marcos have access to NVG in sufficient numbers
it is different case altogether about whether NVG are sufficient for tactical ops without element of surprise which is critical to allow first shot surprise effect
the latest OEM innovation is weapon mounted thermal imaging but even that has weight/size limitation

Haven't you heard of day/night NVGs with variable intensity adjustment. Some have this function automated. Again you haven't read my reply properly.


again, absolute brochure speak
automatic cutouts rarely work as wanted in combat and only complicated larger thermal imager have day/night mode
head mounted NVG w/cutout are widely criticized for suddenly stopping situational awareness and causing problem
if there are multiple fires and use of explosive devices wearing nvg is a bigger problem because the messed up depth perception can cause further issues

understand how NVG are used
- tactical surprise - ie quick entry, first shot
- passive recce and driving
- surveillance

in fast combat with many close shot and explosion soldier may find NVG to be a big bother, it restricts field of view and may cause more harm than help

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Vikram_S » 14 Dec 2008 00:09

Rishirishi wrote:Marcos and NSG are not really specialists in counter terror. Rather they are ment for behind enemy lines, sabotage and recon. Their equipemnt is not for urban warfare and hostage crisis..


you are definitely winner of most amazing post of year award
i am sure you will not even search for data even now

- one: nsg is divided into 2 group: sag and srg: sag primary mandate is counter terror op in urban scenario
- second: marcos has many roles, including above as well for oil rigs and like


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