MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Singha
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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 21 Dec 2008 08:55

BLR already has fairly vast area under army ownership which are very sparsely
used/builtup like the Iblur range, the areas adjacent to hosur road and the huge
area on both sides of the IRR @ domlur.

as we are talking of a smaller outfit than maneswar it should be feasible.
and a helipad can be easily made to transport men and materials to devanhalli
if need be.

trying to find 1000 acres near devanhalli for a greenfield center is not a fruitful
exercise imo.

plus chances of incidents are 400% more likely in urban blr and being in urban
BLR helps them respond much quicker than stuck in a traffic jam on palace road.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 21 Dec 2008 08:59

GJ,

Once this hoo-haa about Mumbai dies down in the media (it is already dying down) and public is back to worrying which babu's hand to grease....all these NSG hub-shub business will remain on paper (or if stone masons are minister's bhatijas, then some foundation stones might get erected, multiple times, at the same place). The NSG we have now, has been waiting for its air wing for ages and their proposal has been passed around from babu to babu like a stale samosa....would have to be high on zamzam cola to expect states to set up their own NSG centers of the kind we have in Manesar.

And coming to the training of SRPF personnel in kamandoo tactics....the men in NSG are already battle hardened with COIN etc. experiencewhen they join NSG and then they get trained like fiends and many drop out (or sometimes, dead). I doubt too many SRPF personnel will meet that critera. Just teaching them kamandoo tactics and handing out black CT gear will just make for pretty pictures....perhaps thats what our netas want so that public can see that eyewash and be happy (till next vaccum bulb explosion in a major Indian city) and netas can go back to making India serve their needs.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 21 Dec 2008 09:23

did ya see the chipanda beijing CT kungfu ninja SWAT unit try to replicate the
nariman house seige on exercise?

all gear right out of the paintball gamers catalogue.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 21 Dec 2008 09:51

Please to post haraam photu of ^^^^

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby George J » 21 Dec 2008 10:47

RB:
I partly agree with you but I am not that fully indoctrinated by BRF as far as babucrazy follies. Whenever there was a shock to the system there has been incremental changes made. For example, most of the riff raff passing off as the new&improved BR jingos may not recall that after the IC814 incident there was another "hoax hijack" incident in October 2001 involving Alliance Air CD7444. Whatever system were improved upon after 814 worked very well after that.

I am sure a LOT of incremental improvements will come as a result of these attacks but I am pretty cynical about all these grandiose plans.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 21 Dec 2008 12:35

Here is news bit on stuck hostages,

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/taj-hero-gm- ... 038-3.html

in response to the above scenario,

A)
to rescue people from multi story buildings, can one have a fiber glass foot bridge, 7-10 meters long that docks from a heli to a floor window/door? if the heli was as large as a Chinook lot more can be accommodated.

wonder no such rescue was made when the twin towers collapsed, probably nobody expected the towers to reduce to rubble. anyways, if a hostage situation were to happen in a skyscraper, I guess the commandos will not try to establish a secure pathway all the way from the top to the ground floor for the hostages.

B )
for fire fighting, helis could also lift fire hoses from the ground fire engine, can have a pump on board for maintaining the water pressure.

C)
if a set of 4-7 all electric mini helis are sent behind enemy lines, each mini heli has a payload based on the mission, one heli would carry a 'power probe' that can hook to open power lines running across a enemy country, (too bad if its a third world country with frequent power outages) and 'charge' the other helis, that way even a low endurance mini heli can stay behind enemy lines for a lot longer time to achieve the objective.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 21 Dec 2008 19:24

We Indians always look for structural solutions (raise new police chowki, buy more qualis cars, blah blah) instead of focussing on finding solutions to actual and current problems that stem from the fact that 95% people in the babu structure dont do what they are supposed to be doing when they are behind their desk.

George J wrote:Whenever there was a shock to the system there has been incremental changes made. ....

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Sid » 21 Dec 2008 19:54

Raja Bose wrote:Please to post haraam photu of ^^^^


http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 ... 53795.html

pics from drill. when they will learn life is not stephen chaw movie.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby ParGha » 22 Dec 2008 00:35

From Munich to Mumbai

By AMI PEDAZHUR
Published: December 20, 2008

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/opini ... azhur.html

NOW that India and the world are over the initial shock of the terrorist attacks last month in Mumbai, efforts to understand what happened and prevent future calamities are being hampered in ways familiar to Israelis like myself, who have lived through far too many such events: pointless efforts to place blame, and a failure to put the attacks in the proper historical context.

First, contrary to much punditry in India and the West, these attacks did not indicate the emergence of a new form of terrorism. Actually, after decades in which terrorism had evolved mostly in the direction of suicide bombings, Mumbai was a painful reminder of the past.

The multiple hostage-takings and shootings, carefully planned and executed, were a throwback to the wave of hijackings and hostage situations that were the trademark of terrorists in the Middle East from the 1960s until the 1980s. The most famous of these events, of course, was the attack on the Israeli delegation at the 1972 Olympic Games.

In Munich, the Black September terrorists succeeded in capturing the attention of TV viewers around the world for a whole day. They knew most TV networks had sent crews to cover the Games and thus would broadcast the hostage situation as it unfolded.

The terrorists in Mumbai were even more successful, in that they created a drama that lasted much longer. They did so by aiming at high-profile targets like the hotels that are hubs for Western tourists and businessmen. They knew that viewers around the world would be glued for days to the constant stream of images on their TV and computer screens.

In addition, that the majority of the Mumbai terrorists landed from the sea was another ugly flashback. For years, terrorists favored arriving at Israel’s beaches on speed boats to take hostages in residential neighborhoods.

One of the most notorious perpetrators was Samir Kuntar, who in 1979 led a group of terrorists to the beach of Nahariya and shot a police officer and a civilian, Danny Haran, before smashing the skull of Haran’s 4-year-old daughter, Einat. Mr. Kuntar was released this year from Israel in a prisoner exchange, and in Damascus was awarded the Syrian Order of Merit.

Yet, despite the horrific nature of the attacks in the past, from a counterterrorism perspective the events in Mumbai were even more worrisome. Though they did not detonate explosive belts, the attackers were truly suicide terrorists. They did not take their hostages for the purpose of negotiations and it is quite clear that they did not hope to leave the scene alive.

They also created chaos by attacking several locations at once. When the terrorists have the advantage of surprise, it really does not matter how well trained the counterterrorism forces are. It takes a long time to figure out what is going on, to gather tactical intelligence and to launch a counterattack.

No one should be aware of these facts more than the Israelis who in the 1970s endured a series of similar albeit less sophisticated attacks.

Hence, I have been very surprised to hear Israeli security experts criticizing the Indian response. These experts probably forgot the devastating civilian death tolls of the attacks in Maalot in 1974 (22 Israeli high school students killed), at the Coastal Road in 1978 (37 murdered, including 13 children) and at Misgav Am in 1980 (two kibbutz members killed, one an infant). These incidents all illustrated the extreme difficulty of rescuing hostages even when the attacked state has highly trained forces and a lot of experience.

Yes, Israel enjoyed a few successes that have been glorified around the world. The most famous were the raids on hijacked planes in Lod, Israel, in 1972 and in Entebbe, Uganda, in 1976. But these two airport rescues cannot be compared with the events in Mumbai.

The Israeli success was due mainly to the fact that the terrorists involved were interested in negotiating, giving security forces the opportunity to gather intelligence, devise a rescue plan and take the hijackers by surprise. Hostages and rescuers were killed in both cases. Yet no security experts argued at the time that the Israeli forces were inadequately prepared or failed in their execution.

It is clear that the Indian security forces made some mistakes. However, mistakes are inherent in such crises. At the same time, given the complex nature of the attacks, it seems likely the death toll could have been much higher. After the initial confusion, the Indians seem to have done a thorough job of gathering intelligence and carefully planning their counterattacks. The execution itself was careful and thorough.

Israel and India both face a lasting terrorism challenge. Yet, if I was asked to give India policy recommendations, I would be extremely cautious about advocating the Israeli approach. Protecting a huge multiethnic, multireligious country like India is far more challenging than securing a rather homogeneous, tiny state like Israel.

Just to illustrate, Israel’s airport security is rightly considered to be a model. However, the Israeli security establishment took years and experienced a number of direct attacks on travel hubs before it slowly introduced its impressive security measures. That Israel has only one major international airport — Ben-Gurion, near Tel Aviv — made the process much easier. And so far, Israel has not been able to tightly secure more challenging targets like train and bus systems.

The Israeli experience teaches that countering terrorism is a long and frustrating process of trial and error. Terrorists are fast to respond to new obstacles.

For example, the security barrier erected after the start of the second intifada in 2000 has brought a sharp decline in the number of suicide attacks. But Hamas adapted quickly. Suicide bombers were replaced by rockets. While the number of casualties caused by the rockets is significantly lower, I am not convinced that residents of the towns near Gaza feel any safer.

The Mumbai attacks showed just how difficult it is for large, multiethnic states to protect themselves from terrorism, something Americans have known well since 9/11. There is certainly much for New Delhi and Washington to learn from the Israeli experience, but there is no one-size-fits-all solution. While Israel has much to be proud of in how it has handled terrorism, it also has much to be humble about.


Ami Pedazhur, a professor of Middle Eastern studies at the University of Texas at Austin, is the author of the forthcoming book “The Israeli Secret Services and the Struggle Against Terrorism.”

Gentlemen, I have taken the liberty of underlining the parts of the NYT Op-Ed most relevant to the discussion of the past few days here. Over the past few weeks there has been much emotional outcries, especially calls for "Do it like they do it in Israel!" and other such myopic rhetoric. It was completely understandable, hence I didn't attempt to question them on a point-to-point basis. Now I think would be a good time to reflect on Dr Pedazhur's points - points coming from an Israeli academic intimate with Israeli security services - and start thinking outside the box.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby ParGha » 22 Dec 2008 00:39

The Israeli experience teaches that countering terrorism is a long and frustrating process of trial and error. Terrorists are fast to respond to new obstacles.


Some excellent words of wisdom from the article above - sure to fail on the "gucci-gear for our security forces" crowd - but hopefully illustrative enough to sway the intelligent but shocked and disoriented mainstream. Symmetric escalation to asymmetric threats does not work, folks. The attackers had automatic weapons, you had manual and semi-auto weapons; you escalate to automatic weapons. The next time attackers will come with bullet-proof armor; you escalate to armor-piercing automatic weapons. The next time attackers will arrive with IAVs; you escalate to new public building codes and ATGM-armed police patrols. The next time attackers will arrive as aerial bombers; you escalate to MANPADS... as you can observe, the terrorists will always be ahead of the curve, the perpetual trend-setters if you will. It does no good. India can think more imaginatively, it deserves a better template for response.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby kaangeya » 22 Dec 2008 09:15

Over the past few weeks there has been much emotional outcries, especially calls for "Do it like they do it in Israel!" and other such myopic rhetoric. It was completely understandable, hence I didn't attempt to question them on a point-to-point basis. Now I think would be a good time to reflect on Dr Pedazhur's points - points coming from an Israeli academic intimate with Israeli security services - and start thinking outside the box.


Don't count me among those emotional outcriers. Being the only poster on this entire thread who has seen a SWAT Op up close I have been repeating at every opportunity that this "Do it like they do it in Israel!" cat call/braying/naarebaazi is bakwas. India's armed forces know that the babus/netas will always foul things up, and in the end it is they who will be called to take the chappatis out of the fire, and so are interested in only in one thing - to protect the people who pay them their salary - that is janata janardhan. As that ACP and his colleagues and the Taj staffer said in a burning corridor as they were walking around to try drawing the piglets fire, "Don't worry sir. Even if we die we will not let them pass." Forget Patton. SpecOps is dirty, nasty, brutish, and a hard grind. As that young NSG, who kept talking of the "main cheez", "Afghanistan ya Pakistan, kuch problem nahin."

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 26 Dec 2008 07:06

George J wrote:RB:
I partly agree with you but I am not that fully indoctrinated by BRF as far as babucrazy follies. Whenever there was a shock to the system there has been incremental changes made. For example, most of the riff raff passing off as the new&improved BR jingos may not recall that after the IC814 incident there was another "hoax hijack" incident in October 2001 involving Alliance Air CD7444. Whatever system were improved upon after 814 worked very well after that.

I am sure a LOT of incremental improvements will come as a result of these attacks but I am pretty cynical about all these grandiose plans.


GJ,

My rant stemmed mainly from the fact that even after the Akshardham incident which highlighted lack of air wing, babus chose to sleep on it. I guess sometimes the delta(change) is not large enough. The Alliance Air hoax hijack involved very swift response from NSG (would have been devastating for the hijacker if it had been the real deal) since it happened at IGI and they have a few hits stationed at the airport apart from NSG offices at Mehrampur.
Last edited by Raja Bose on 26 Dec 2008 07:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 26 Dec 2008 07:08

kaangeya wrote:Being the only poster on this entire thread who has seen a SWAT Op up close


Don't assume that :)

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 26 Dec 2008 13:49

helis could have been used and storming through multiple entrances was possible, what was lacking was a single thinking body,

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2008/de ... errent.htm

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby chetak » 26 Dec 2008 14:02

Singha wrote:BLR already has fairly vast area under army ownership which are very sparsely
used/builtup like the Iblur range, the areas adjacent to hosur road and the huge
area on both sides of the IRR @ domlur.

as we are talking of a smaller outfit than maneswar it should be feasible.
and a helipad can be easily made to transport men and materials to devanhalli
if need be.

trying to find 1000 acres near devanhalli for a greenfield center is not a fruitful
exercise imo.

plus chances of incidents are 400% more likely in urban blr and being in urban
BLR helps them respond much quicker than stuck in a traffic jam on palace road.


Military farm on Bellary road?

I hear that the Army is anyway getting out of farming. :D

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 27 Dec 2008 23:38

talking about gizmos, wouldn't portable and very sensitive seismic sensors attached to these buildings reveal walking activity on the floors? if we had multiple sensors triangulating, one can track people moving on a floor.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Ajay K » 29 Dec 2008 13:00

Highest priority in the NSG re-equipment list should be these Ballistic Shields.
http://www.bulletproofvests.com/shields.html

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 30 Dec 2008 02:27

vasu_ray wrote:talking about gizmos, wouldn't portable and very sensitive seismic sensors attached to these buildings reveal walking activity on the floors? if we had multiple sensors triangulating, one can track people moving on a floor.


i would like to nominate you to volunteer to run from floor to floor to install the seismic senors, network them, calibrate them and then quietly monitor all the footfalls from the command bunker, taking care to filter out the vibrations of mice, newsmedia persons pontificating outside and aam janata walking by

in the meantime, some poor bugger is going to continue crawling through the darkness with MP5 at the ready and cold sweat on his brow

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 30 Dec 2008 09:58

running from floor to floor while knocking doors was already there

networking and calibrating are non-starters as one doesn't go about cabling, simple wireless network will do, calibration can be done using pre built libraries; you got to have better clarity on what constitutes development and what belongs to deployment and when a viability decision makes sense.

I would be happy if the sensors can detect mice and unless those turds can walk like mice, I think we will get a reasonable diffrentiation in the signal

and even better if the sensors can map the building

for many reasons a perimeter needs to be created around the buildings/ops area

the real drawback is the kind of processing required to separate the noise and analyze the signal, maybe a truck parked outside

generally speaking, the ratio of successful vs. unsuccessful ideas is highly biased towards the latter, however if we stop cooking ideas you can never make that effort to determine on what works and what doesn't, we just end up buying from gora sources. They usually include all their failures in their R&D cost of the one that is successful i.e., at the least.

Invest about 10,000 crores in Indian univs and advanced education and facilities and wait for a gestation of 10 to 20 years, we wouldn't need to buy everything from outside for Indian defence.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Girish » 30 Dec 2008 14:27

RayC wrote:
Anshul wrote:Bose Sir...I will try to get the source....most likely India Today.It read...something like this...."Capt.Nimbalkar with his ghatak platoon para - dropped / heli - dropped (to be verified) the previous night was facing ....enemy gunfire....took shelter under a rock overlooking a cliff".

I know 18th Grenadiers is an infantry unit.Para - trained or not is something you know better.

This is what i can recall....need to turn the pages of my kargil archives.


Just a point for record.

There has been no paradrop in ops after 1971.

There was NO paradrop or helidrops in the Kargil ops.

HALO and HAHO is used in High Altitude and HAP is required so as to adjust the speed of descent.

A Ridge Too Far by Capt Amarinder Singh is an ideal reference book on Kargil Ops. He came to Kargil and interviewed the officers and troops and then wrote the book.


sirs,

ref and paraphrased from: kargil, from surprise to victory by gen. v.p. malik

[may 28, 1999]
an attack was launched under maj. r. s. adhikari, capt. sachin a. nimbalkar and lt. balwant singh. they were pinned down just below 25-30m with accurate firing from a sangar above at point 4590 and tololing top that is point 5140 just behind it. this means perhaps they were -not- paradropped.

[june 1, 1999]
command structure was modified.
with intense art. and inf.morts grenadiers launched another attack. perhaps it is on this day or around this time, col. r. vishwanathan died only after securing a foothold which facilitated 4590 capture. unfortunately i don't have exact date of this attack.

[june 12, 1999]
2 rajputana attack commenced with a-company under maj. p. acharya and b-company (details i don't have), c-company under maj. vivek gupta and d-company under maj. mohit saxena.
...and so on


kindly ignore any obvious mistakes, if there are any all are mine.

Username changed to Girish.
Rahul.
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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 31 Dec 2008 00:09

vasu_ray wrote:running from floor to floor while knocking doors was already there

networking and calibrating are non-starters as one doesn't go about cabling, simple wireless network will do, calibration can be done using pre built libraries; you got to have better clarity on what constitutes development and what belongs to deployment and when a viability decision makes sense.

I would be happy if the sensors can detect mice and unless those turds can walk like mice, I think we will get a reasonable diffrentiation in the signal



vasu_ray, this is no 29 Palms experiment where they are airdropping WSN nodes to detect heavy vehicle movement (which have a very distinct signature)...even in the best of times and most peaceful of locations and most air-conditioned of circumstances, what you are suggesting does not work most of the time.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 31 Dec 2008 10:46

Boseji, walking on ground floor (due to anchoring of larger area) is different from walking on upper floors (anchoring limited to pillars and walls) in terms of disturbance generated, position the sensors away from anchors they can serve as 'trip wires' if not provide real time tracking also depending on how good the sensors are.

here is a link from google for FWIW, not seismic though,

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002275.html

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Girish » 31 Dec 2008 11:07

Girish wrote:
RayC wrote:
Anshul wrote:Bose Sir...I will try to get the source....most likely India Today.It read...something like this...."Capt.Nimbalkar with his ghatak platoon para - dropped / heli - dropped (to be verified) the previous night was facing ....enemy gunfire....took shelter under a rock overlooking a cliff".

I know 18th Grenadiers is an infantry unit.Para - trained or not is something you know better.

This is what i can recall....need to turn the pages of my kargil archives.


Just a point for record.

There has been no paradrop in ops after 1971.

There was NO paradrop or helidrops in the Kargil ops.

HALO and HAHO is used in High Altitude and HAP is required so as to adjust the speed of descent.

A Ridge Too Far by Capt Amarinder Singh is an ideal reference book on Kargil Ops. He came to Kargil and interviewed the officers and troops and then wrote the book.


sirs,

ref and paraphrased from: kargil, from surprise to victory by gen. v.p. malik

[may 28, 1999]
an attack was launched under maj. r. s. adhikari, capt. sachin a. nimbalkar and lt. balwant singh. they were pinned down just below 25-30m with accurate firing from a sangar above at point 4590 and tololing top that is point 5140 just behind it. this means perhaps they were -not- paradropped.

[june 1, 1999]
command structure was modified.
with intense art. and inf.morts grenadiers launched another attack. perhaps it is on this day or around this time, col. r. vishwanathan died only after securing a foothold which facilitated 4590 capture. unfortunately i don't have exact date of this attack.

[june 12, 1999]
2 rajputana attack commenced with a-company under maj. p. acharya and b-company (details i don't have), c-company under maj. vivek gupta and d-company under maj. mohit saxena.
...and so on


kindly ignore any obvious mistakes, if there are any all are mine.

Username changed to Girish.
Rahul.


thanks 8)

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 31 Dec 2008 20:04

vasuji, the technology and technique you describe is entirely feasible - in theory. we are pointing out the practical problems

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby rahulm » 01 Jan 2009 09:26

Please see my preamble in the "Is our military ready for quick action against Pakistan?" thread:. Also, caught up with an ex. NSG but still serving chap.

Don't know if the number has been quoted before but there were a total of about 700 NSG involved in the operation which he described a the most challenging ever undertaken.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby rahulm » 01 Jan 2009 09:48

Please see my preamble in the "Is our military ready for quick action against Pakistan?" thread:. Also, caught up with an ex. NSG but still serving chap.

Don't know if the number has been quoted before but there were a total of about 700 NSG involved in the operation which he described as the most challenging ever undertaken.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Vikram_S » 01 Jan 2009 14:29

Everything in detail about BPJ (OFB)with TATA armour panel

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... _bottom=18

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby k prasad » 02 Jan 2009 16:19

rahulm wrote:Please see my preamble in the "Is our military ready for quick action against Pakistan?" thread:. Also, caught up with an ex. NSG but still serving chap.

Don't know if the number has been quoted before but there were a total of about 700 NSG involved in the operation which he described as the most challenging ever undertaken.


so is it 200 SAG and 500 SRG then??

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Nayak » 03 Jan 2009 09:59

vasu_ray wrote:talking about gizmos, wouldn't portable and very sensitive seismic sensors attached to these buildings reveal walking activity on the floors? if we had multiple sensors triangulating, one can track people moving on a floor.


:eek: :eek: :eek:

Mods can you please clean up this thread and keep posts with substance. Not vapor-ware ......

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Div » 04 Jan 2009 08:33

Vikram_S wrote:Everything in detail about BPJ (OFB)with TATA armour panel

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... _bottom=18

Their weight (22lbs for the plates and what ever the soft armour is) seems like a lot. Looks like some of the ceramic alternatives are lighter, though they have their own issues.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_g ... ceptor.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby HariC » 05 Jan 2009 22:00

I'm really sorry but I don't think giving hit pieces with discredited information hits from BR is a good idea.
Rahul.
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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 05 Jan 2009 22:45

:rotfl: yeah this fat blogger sitting in barista is a hero and the marcos are cowards.
'pusillanimous' - a word from barrons guide picked up enroute to his journalism
degree in columbia univ I expect.

par for the course for these self-proclaimed experts.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby MukulMohanty » 05 Jan 2009 23:01

Div wrote:
Vikram_S wrote:Everything in detail about BPJ (OFB)with TATA armour panel

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... _bottom=18

Their weight (22lbs for the plates and what ever the soft armour is) seems like a lot. Looks like some of the ceramic alternatives are lighter, though they have their own issues.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_g ... ceptor.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor



Firstly, there has been fair bit of controversy on Dragon Skin Body Armour as noted in the wikipedia article and otherwise, I have seen the youtube clip of the armour which apparantely survived a frag. However, the US Army generally disagrees and it hasn't been able to make any headway.

Soft body armour can be in form of a gel/or soft tissue clothing which basically reduces the shock of the bullet which basically can kill you in a more painful manner than a bullet through internal injuries and internal bleeding. The force of the bullet echos on your internal parts if you haven't worn a soft armour which absorbs the shock and reduces the impact.

The problem with the Indian Body Armour isn't just the weight, its also the surface area that it covers which is very limited the American Body Armor has larger plates with greater surface area and lower weight per inch. That is the solution we require.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby nsa_tanay » 15 Jan 2009 22:28

Sorry If I am replying to a post that is very old and sort of closed, actually I just saw it.

KiranM wrote:From what I remember seeing such systems, they are not ideal for use in building for their size and bulk. If at all there are such ideal systems, they might not have been integrated with the training. And I dont understand what is this fetish for robots. They can be of help but they are not the answer to all the prayers. If someone can hide from direct human vision, is it difficult for them to hide from a robot which is controlled by a human using the restricted camera fed vision from that robot? Also, it is not like the terrorists will sit idle when the robot comes looking for them.


Dear KiranM, I beg to differ, there are lots of small robots- both flying and grounded - available in US, Israel , France, China and Russia, in the shape of fly/bee or normal toy like cars with high maneuverability and fitted wide angle (very wide angle almost like fish eye )
lens that can see almost 300 degree around and also very small in size. From 5 inch to 1 feet.



KiranM wrote:Firelocating radars, wow!! And how are these supposed to penetrate through walls, furnitures and what not to detect the bullet? And in the close confines how are these to distinguish between the bullets fired by NSG and that fired by terrorists? Please think before you post such suggestions. Fire direction finding equipment are usually used to find snipers firing in an open area from a long range. Not for CQB ops.
Anti-material rifles must be used along with Thermal Imagers (TI). TI uses body heat to detect. How can a sniper distinguish between the terrorist and a hostage?
Again, TI and also the bullet of the anti-material rifle can penetrate wall of only certain thickness. Surely not the stone buit structure of the Taj hotel.


TI detect not only body heat but any kind of Heat. If a sniper looks inside a room with a TI equipped Anti-material rifle , He can clearly distinguish between a terrorist and a Hostage from their behavioral pattern and movement. Also the terrorist must be having more than one weapon with him, either holding by his hand or strapped to his shoulder. All those weapons having been recently fired must have been very heated. Thus, very easy to detect by a TI equiped sniper.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby Kumar_I » 17 Jan 2009 04:43

nsa_tanay wrote:Sorry If I am replying to a post that is very old and sort of closed, actually I just saw it.

KiranM wrote:From what I remember seeing such systems, they are not ideal for use in building for their size and bulk. If at all there are such ideal systems, they might not have been integrated with the training. And I dont understand what is this fetish for robots. They can be of help but they are not the answer to all the prayers. If someone can hide from direct human vision, is it difficult for them to hide from a robot which is controlled by a human using the restricted camera fed vision from that robot? Also, it is not like the terrorists will sit idle when the robot comes looking for them.


Dear KiranM, I beg to differ, there are lots of small robots- both flying and grounded - available in US, Israel , France, China and Russia, in the shape of fly/bee or normal toy like cars with high maneuverability and fitted wide angle (very wide angle almost like fish eye )
lens that can see almost 300 degree around and also very small in size. From 5 inch to 1 feet.



KiranM wrote:Firelocating radars, wow!! And how are these supposed to penetrate through walls, furnitures and what not to detect the bullet? And in the close confines how are these to distinguish between the bullets fired by NSG and that fired by terrorists? Please think before you post such suggestions. Fire direction finding equipment are usually used to find snipers firing in an open area from a long range. Not for CQB ops.
Anti-material rifles must be used along with Thermal Imagers (TI). TI uses body heat to detect. How can a sniper distinguish between the terrorist and a hostage?
Again, TI and also the bullet of the anti-material rifle can penetrate wall of only certain thickness. Surely not the stone buit structure of the Taj hotel.


TI detect not only body heat but any kind of Heat. If a sniper looks inside a room with a TI equipped Anti-material rifle , He can clearly distinguish between a terrorist and a Hostage from their behavioral pattern and movement. Also the terrorist must be having more than one weapon with him, either holding by his hand or strapped to his shoulder. All those weapons having been recently fired must have been very heated. Thus, very easy to detect by a TI equiped sniper.


TI does not penitrate concrete. yes it does show temprature variantion in 2D but I never came across any unit that sniper can see through the wall ( except movies). If you know please share the link it will be intresting to know.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby sum » 17 Jan 2009 18:49

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nsg-goes-shopping-for-hitech-equipment/411240/
NSG goes shopping for hi-tech equipment

New Delhi: Having successfully demonstrated its prowess as a crack commando force during the 26/11 Mumbai Terror siege, the National Security Guard (NSG) is wasting no time upgrading its capabilities to counter crisis situations like the ones it faced in Taj and Oberoi hotels and Nariman House.

Coming out of the debriefing following its Mumbai operations, the elite commando force has swiftly moved on, identifying key high-end equipment required to deal with “Mumbai-like” situations and is already begun the process to acquire cutting edge technology. The NSG’s shopping list includes gadgets like body-worn video and audio bugs, Mini Remotely Operated Vehicles and Real Time X-Ray Viewing System.

While NSG officials maintained that the force keeps on acquiring such equipment from time to time, sources said this time the acquisition of such gadgets was a direct fallout of the 26/11 debriefing where senior NSG Black Cats highlighted the handicaps they faced on account of not having critical equipment during their 60-hour-long operations in Mumbai’s terror theatres.

Learning from the Mumbai experience, the NSG is scouting for video bugs which essentially are body-worn colour cameras with a transmitter and are designed to look like either a spectacle or a standard tie-pin and have a minimum pick-up range of 10 feet and minimum transmission range of 200 metres.

The commando force also wants to procure equipment capable of re-transmitting the signal transmitted by a video bug at a different frequency and higher power output to enhance the working range. The force is looking to procure miniature digital audio transmitters having built-in microphones and antennae. Having such video and audio bugs, said sources, would enable Black Cats to capture and transmit real-time “live” images and sounds during an ongoing operation.

In addition, the NSG is looking to procure a Real Time X-ray viewing system which can help in real-time measurement of objects located behind obstructions like walls. “What we are looking for is an x-ray system which is compact, light-weight and easy to set-up, even from a remote location,” an official said.

Also on the shopping list is a Mini Remotely Operated Vehicle (MROV) which can be launched to carry out surveillance inside “buildings and installations”, “aircraft and trains”, “passenger terminals”, “on ferries and ships” and “under the vehicles”. “The kind of MROV we are looking for should have a climbing capability of stairs and slopes at 45 degrees, should have a video colour camera, night-vision capability and modular weapon mounting system,” an official said.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby sum » 17 Jan 2009 18:52

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/black-cats-as-white-knights/410936/
Black Cats as white knights

New Delhi: The National Security Guard’s Black Cat commandos appear to have caught the fancy of the country’s youth with their heroics in Operation Black Tornado during the 26/11 Mumbai Terror siege. For the past month or so, the elite commando force has been flooded with hundreds of queries each day from people wanting to know the procedure to join the NSG and getting trained as commandos.

The large number of calls received at NSG’s headquarters in Mehram Nagar has prompted the force to officially clarify that “it has no arrangement for training private individuals”. In fact, the NSG has recently put up a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) section on its website which lists only two questions — how can one join the NSG and how can one get trained at the NSG?

While the force has clarified that it is a “deputationist force and therefore, there is no direct recruitment,” in response to the first question, it has stated that “requests need to come through respective governments/government agencies” and that “there is no arrangement for training private individuals” in its response to the second.

"The number of people calling our offices and seeking details on how to get commando training has been phenomenal. Never before did we have to explain to the public that there is no direct recruitment to the NSG and all our numbers are made up of personnel from the Indian Army, the Central Para Military Forces and the state police forces. People have been passionately arguing with us to allow them entry into the force,” an NSG official said.

The NSG is modelled on the United Kingdom’s Special Air Service (SAS) and Germany’s elite counter-terrorism force, the GSG-9, and comprises two complementary wings — the Special Action Group (SAG) and the Special Ranger Group (SRG). Completely made up of Indian Army personnel, the SAG is mandated to conduct offensive counter-terrorism and anti-hijacking operations while the SRG is essentially tasked with the supplementary role of providing tactical support and carrying heavy weapons during the SAG’s operations. The NSG currently has two SAG battalions — the 51 SAG and the 52 SAG — and has three SRG battalions. The SRG comprises personnel drawn from the Central Para Military Forces like the CRPF, the CISF, the ITBP, the BSF and the state police forces.

Would direct recruitment (atleast to the SRG) help in tiding over the critical manpower crunch in the NSG (its only going to get worse with the massive expansion being planned/undertaken)?

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Kumar_I » 20 Jan 2009 04:12

X ray equipments are bulky, plus body worn video bugs and audio bugs. I saw the tender on NSA website they are 5 in quantity and in operation how are you going to use bugs.

May be author means body mounted video and audio reciever and squad level comm. link of body ( helmet mounted) video to command center.

Any body knows what kind of x ray we are talking here. I am not aware of any head mounted x ray device portable enough to be used in battle field.

Good to see some action at least we are preparing.

sum wrote:http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nsg-goes-shopping-for-hitech-equipment/411240/
NSG goes shopping for hi-tech equipment

New Delhi: Having successfully demonstrated its prowess as a crack commando force during the 26/11 Mumbai Terror siege, the National Security Guard (NSG) is wasting no time upgrading its capabilities to counter crisis situations like the ones it faced in Taj and Oberoi hotels and Nariman House.

Coming out of the debriefing following its Mumbai operations, the elite commando force has swiftly moved on, identifying key high-end equipment required to deal with “Mumbai-like” situations and is already begun the process to acquire cutting edge technology. The NSG’s shopping list includes gadgets like body-worn video and audio bugs, Mini Remotely Operated Vehicles and Real Time X-Ray Viewing System.

While NSG officials maintained that the force keeps on acquiring such equipment from time to time, sources said this time the acquisition of such gadgets was a direct fallout of the 26/11 debriefing where senior NSG Black Cats highlighted the handicaps they faced on account of not having critical equipment during their 60-hour-long operations in Mumbai’s terror theatres.

Learning from the Mumbai experience, the NSG is scouting for video bugs which essentially are body-worn colour cameras with a transmitter and are designed to look like either a spectacle or a standard tie-pin and have a minimum pick-up range of 10 feet and minimum transmission range of 200 metres.

The commando force also wants to procure equipment capable of re-transmitting the signal transmitted by a video bug at a different frequency and higher power output to enhance the working range. The force is looking to procure miniature digital audio transmitters having built-in microphones and antennae. Having such video and audio bugs, said sources, would enable Black Cats to capture and transmit real-time “live” images and sounds during an ongoing operation.

In addition, the NSG is looking to procure a Real Time X-ray viewing system which can help in real-time measurement of objects located behind obstructions like walls. “What we are looking for is an x-ray system which is compact, light-weight and easy to set-up, even from a remote location,” an official said.

Also on the shopping list is a Mini Remotely Operated Vehicle (MROV) which can be launched to carry out surveillance inside “buildings and installations”, “aircraft and trains”, “passenger terminals”, “on ferries and ships” and “under the vehicles”. “The kind of MROV we are looking for should have a climbing capability of stairs and slopes at 45 degrees, should have a video colour camera, night-vision capability and modular weapon mounting system,” an official said.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Kumar_I » 20 Jan 2009 04:20

Ajay K wrote:Highest priority in the NSG re-equipment list should be these Ballistic Shields.
http://www.bulletproofvests.com/shields.html



Highest priority should be to re evalutate tactics. No amount of weapons are superior than a superior tactics.
NSA and Indian solders are brave but there is very little tactics and operational knowledge in urban front. This is our first military operation inside a urban area.

yes ballastic shields, Flash bangs, stun grenade, tear gas, Robots, Vests, thermal image, nite vision all this will come. I think re evaluating strategy will be the highest priority.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Kumar_I » 20 Jan 2009 04:23

Singha wrote:did ya see the chipanda beijing CT kungfu ninja SWAT unit try to replicate the
nariman house seige on exercise?

all gear right out of the paintball gamers catalogue.


Chinese never loses the opportunity to outshine any one and boost their confidence. They have been very successful in using media to project China as a strong and stable country.
a lot of media management.


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