MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Jay » 16 Dec 2008 04:12

Sorry, DP
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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Jay » 16 Dec 2008 04:19

all the rooms in Taj and Oberoi have windows, why not enter them as an encirclement on various floors using helis or sliding down from the roof and lay wait in these rooms, you might hit a 'live' room, if the risk of being shot at or blown is reduced, thats not a problem. There are various search algorithms and divding the problem space or in this case the number of rooms is what they optimize on mostly instead of doing the linear search that NSG did taking a lot of time inspite of large numbers.


If only you read the news papers. NSG did use the search from top approach and the result was the flying piglet from the window. The idea of rapelling down from a helicopter into a window of a multistory building is operationally impossible and the usage of search algorithm is useless, as good/bad as a random number generator.

on reducing the risk of casualty

wouldn't firing of blanks elicit a response from terrorists? not from hostages


Rescuer fires blanks, piglet fires live ammo, rescuer changes weapon and kills piglet, happy ending right?

full armor suits when facing the unknown or you know you are walking into a hail of bullets or grenades, bulky is fine, atleast you provide cover for the guy/sniper behind you for that one sec shot



I did not knew we had human shields, WOW, That would truly be an innovation, but alas, we missed it, you known we are not sophisticated, onlee.


wouldn't trip wire explosives in the hall ways strategically placed helped curb their 'running' movement


How would the Rescuers and hostages navigate, on a ali baba carpet?

would tranquilizer bullets, 'stun bullets' from snipers/hit teams not help? when no strategic placement option for them is found, will robo helis not be a choice? there are so many hobby helis and if they are outfitted with equipment that can see through walls, provides rapid scanning at close range, a significant advantage


Is this a comedy movie from Lollywood, even Bollywood and Tollywood wont fall for this crap.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 16 Dec 2008 08:06

wanking from my side only draws more wanking as I should know. I wouldn't argue with real life operational gurus, still I stick to my opinion of extensive usage of gadgets by the special forces as technology isn't limited

in a foreign land you would operate under time and resource constraints, while bravery is rated high as it should, losing machines than men as a broad strategy helps

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby RayC » 16 Dec 2008 09:54

They're all young: to be in the NSG, you have to be below 40. These men have been through the world's most gruelling physical training - two men died last summer during the basic course. There are no ranks - everyone is a commando, as the label on the breast pocket indicates: Commando Rajesh Bhowmick and not Captain Rajesh Bhowmick as it would read back in his army regiment. The trainees on their morning jog don't stop to salute their officer, merely pass him by, in a whiff of male sweat and the stamp of boots, with a "Ram, Ram, Sir!"


This is merely a journalistic way to spruce up an article and make it sound authentic!

The article goes to indicate there was a 'whiff of male sweat'. What did the writer expect? The whiff of Chanel No 5?

We must not merely go by the written word of the media - need not be the Gospel truth! It could be merely the interpretation of the Gospel.

In any service, be it the Army or Navy or Air Force or the NSG, on a morning jog (actually PT period), none will stop the run and start saluting. It will disturb the curriculum. A voice salutation is adequate.

If a class is on, and a senior officer enters the class to see the progress, the instructor will not stop to even give a voice salutation! And at the end of the class or instruction, he will inform the senior officer that he has finished and would the senior have anything to add.

Lets pose a question. Now the same article state 'a pleasant faced Colonel'? If all are 'Commandos', then how come the writer knows who is a Colonel or a Sepoy?

If all are Commandos, then why wear the badges of rank?

And if they wear badges of rank, then it is odd that their name tags reads "Commando Bhaumick". Could someone clarify? I have not served in the NSG and only know them, while they were in mufti except MC Bhandari, who was in full regalia!!

In any organisation, unless the command structure is known, it can be chaotic. There can be no egalitarianism in an organisation where it is a question of life and death, even though everything is done to maintain the camaraderie.

This attack is singularly different and more audacious than anything done so far, except 9/11. That is why all foreign agencies are keen to join the 'investigation'. It reminds me of the Forsyth book, 'The Afghan' where it was planned to blow up the Heads of State at sea with an LPG vessel!

Indeed, there are many flaws in all departments and lessons have to be learnt, not only by the Indians, but by all agencies the world over and that is why all are keen to help.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby RayC » 16 Dec 2008 10:36

I wonder if the NSG has Tasers.

It could get them alive almost like Frank Buck's 'Bring them Back Alive'!

Kasab singing has been a great help in nailing Pakistan!

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Nihat » 16 Dec 2008 10:55

Could Nariman house have been gassed , it was definetly the smallest and most closed of all the targets or would there have been just far too many diplomatic implication in doing that?

It would have been a massive boost to get those 2 terrorists alive.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 16 Dec 2008 12:54

If only you read the news papers. NSG did use the search from top approach and the result was the flying piglet from the window. The idea of rapelling down from a helicopter into a window of a multistory building is operationally impossible and the usage of search algorithm is useless, as good/bad as a random number generator.


Its a matter of technicality, if you first rapel down to the roof and then to the windows. (In Kargil soldiers did climb heights), so I don't believe thats impossible. if one got binoculars that can see through walls albeit in a limited way, how tough is it to mount them on robotic helis for scanning along side the outside wall of a room helping multiple teams around the building?, if you see human signatures, then you fire blanks (NSG did complain they had to figure out if people in a room or terrorists or hostages) either using snipers, if there is a response, you have a live one else you had a entry point, once you made enough in-roads, you could use common exits and helis could rescue the hostages from these 'exits', one need not climb down all the floors, don't you think by having entries and exits only on the ground floor, NSG has limited its own room.

except at Nariman house, there wasn't one heli and all the troops arrived in buses. And can't you get a heli pull a window grill off? or lift a jack to a windows height?

Rescuer fires blanks, piglet fires live ammo, rescuer changes weapon and kills piglet, happy ending right?


rescuer is not acting alone, one guy fires blanks, the others are waiting and the first can shift to real bullets.

I did not knew we had human shields, WOW, That would truly be an innovation, but alas, we missed it, you known we are not sophisticated, onlee.



well, how do the bomb squad guys manage? only with BPJs and necks and heads exposed?

How would the Rescuers and hostages navigate, on a ali baba carpet?


when you create smaller perimeters albeit expanding, you should protect them and there is always radio communication between the various teams.

containment of these turds would have been faster if 'checkpoints' were inserted along the many floors.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 16 Dec 2008 13:04

Nihat wrote:Could Nariman house have been gassed , it was definetly the smallest and most closed of all the targets or would there have been just far too many diplomatic implication in doing that?

It would have been a massive boost to get those 2 terrorists alive.


Definately.
The Russian used the trick in a Moscow. But the I am not sure if India has acess to those type of gases. And some of them are can be very harmful, and kill the hostages. Using conventional gases like tear gas would be a no starter, as the terrorists would have pressed the button.

And remember that the whole world is watching, so no one wants to make a mistake.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 16 Dec 2008 14:23

RayC ..not sure of Tasers is a good idea against folks hirling grenades /firing Ak's.... tasers currently in use are more geared towards policing action...

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby KiranM » 16 Dec 2008 14:27

vasu_ray wrote:Its a matter of technicality, if you first rapel down to the roof and then to the windows. (In Kargil soldiers did climb heights), so I don't believe thats impossible. if one got binoculars that can see through walls albeit in a limited way, how tough is it to mount them on robotic helis for scanning along side the outside wall of a room helping multiple teams around the building?, if you see human signatures, then you fire blanks (NSG did complain they had to figure out if people in a room or terrorists or hostages) either using snipers, if there is a response, you have a live one else you had a entry point, once you made enough in-roads, you could use common exits and helis could rescue the hostages from these 'exits', one need not climb down all the floors, don't you think by having entries and exits only on the ground floor, NSG has limited its own room.


It has been discussed on this very same thread, countless times, that in India windows have grills. One cannot just abseil into a window. Please try pulling of a grill at your home and then talk about NSG pulling out a grill and entering from windows within your stipulated time.
Also there were atleast 400 rooms in Taj. It is not logistically and technically possible to enter each and every window. Sometimes it is more of a common sense to use traditional/ conventional methods.

Talking about seeing through walls. Only TI binoculars or TI sniper scopes can do that. Albeit, through walls of certain thickness. This again has been discussed if you even care to just move your fingers and click previous pages to read.
Only other technologically feasible 'wall scanning' equipment will be an x-ray machine. US is planning to field an equipment
just to scan a truck. And it is as huge as the truck itself. I wonder how that can be compressed onto 'robotic helis'.

vasu_ray wrote:except at Nariman house, there wasn't one heli and all the troops arrived in buses. And can't you get a heli pull a window grill off? or lift a jack to a windows height?


If NSG used choppers at Nariman but not at Taj or Oberoi they will have their reasons. How can you say for sure the terrorist would not have rigged the roofs or entry to buildings from roof with explosives?
Using heli to pull off windows?! Wow! I am sure the terrorists would have been mute spectators applauding such an effort.

vasu_ray wrote:rescuer is not acting alone, one guy fires blanks, the others are waiting and the first can shift to real bullets.


This again has been told several times. The terrorists used advanced infantry tactics. They did not fire needlessly. What makes you think if NSG fired, just to fix their positions, they would fire back just like that? Unless NSG or hostages were in sight they did not fire. Hence, the high number of casualties and the terrorists holding out for so long. And when in sight of terrorists, i think NSG will prefer to fire real bullets and not blanks!!!

vasu_ray wrote:well, how do the bomb squad guys manage? only with BPJs and necks and heads exposed?


Bomb squad moves in only when an area/ room has been cleared of human presence. Not before.

vasu_ray wrote:when you create smaller perimeters albeit expanding, you should protect them and there is always radio communication between the various teams.

This is what happened with NSG moving up floor by florr. Continuously reducing the field of movement of terrorists. However, many hostages didnt want to come out of their room, not knowing for sure who was knocking at the door.
In the heat of action booby trapping sanitised area by NSG with the hope to blow up the terrorists is fool hardy. Mess ups sometime happen even with Army Sappers mining an area carefully mapped. Forget booby trapping a building with friendlies trapped.

vasu_ray wrote:containment of these turds would have been faster if 'checkpoints' were inserted along the many floors.

Again this is what happened with NSG clearing floor by floor, room by room.


Admins, please please please punish such inane posts or posts where the same points are raised over and over again. BR is a forum to freely express opinions. But along with freedom comes responsibily. Posters should read previous posts. This thread is not even that huge to not to scan through previous pages.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 16 Dec 2008 20:16

psst...psst....all new special forces/HRT strategists here....you are completely right, NSG needs to have all this kit. They are too ill-trained and poorly equipped at the moment to appreciate your knowledge. However, may I also suggest US army jetpack to zoom up to windows and fire. We have in stock various such kit including goggles which can withstand direct fire artillery round, robo helis which can fly upside down and fire various missiles, boots with inbuilt GPS mine detection equipment and suction cups to climb walls (for a limited period, we are also offering free WiFi capability to chat and visit facebook/orkut during those downtimes which are present in every rescue operation) and last but not the least special vision equipment which can see through 400 rooms at a time!! Do not delay, we have it all....please to visit Cave Kamplex #72, Tora Bora, LMU jehadis erm....I mean sales associates, are standing by. Oh, and by the way, dont forget to bring 100000 in kufr dollars (credit cards and cheques haraam) to ensure that untimely accidents dont happen. :mrgreen:

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby KiranM » 16 Dec 2008 21:15

^^^ Raja, that surely cracked me up man. :rotfl:

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby satya » 16 Dec 2008 21:25

Raja Bose
Views expressed by armchair special-ops specialists here do reflect one thing common prevailing in India including serving security top brass & its the question of what's the real purpose of special-ops forces & how do they fit in our current internal & external security scenario .Seems like things haven't changed much since '99 & COIN ops pre & post 99 when special- ops personnels were used more or less as 'infantry' .

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 17 Dec 2008 12:12

blah blah and smart *** swearing deleted.
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Reason: user warned.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby RayC » 17 Dec 2008 12:23

Since I am a dinosaur as far as the 'latest' in the Army etc, I rang up an officer of mine who was in the NSG on the issue of ranks being used or are they addressed as 'Commandos'.

He confirmed that ranks are used and this 'Commando' stuff is during training.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby RayC » 17 Dec 2008 12:40

Vasu,

You are sure that in Kargil they rappelled? If so, where?

In so far as the Taj issue is concerned, indeed it must have been difficult to IFF. But then I wonder if blanks would be the answer.

What is the tactics of the commandos are best left to them. It is their lives and they know what is best for them. The cover and move that you mention is a common practice and nothing extraordinary brilliant.

Kiran.

Hotels do not have grills or do they? One would like a seamless view and grills obstruct that.

Admins, please please please punish such inane posts or posts where the same points are raised over and over again. BR is a forum to freely express opinions. But along with freedom comes responsibily. Posters should read previous posts. This thread is not even that huge to not to scan through previous pages.

Everyone has a view. It is best to clarify them so that they too participate in War on Terror in a sane manner!

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby ASPuar » 17 Dec 2008 13:22

Rahul M wrote:I do understand your point. but in this case I would put it down to DDM's lack of knowledge about nuances rather than an deliberate attempt.

all references I've seen to the fallen NSG men have included their ranks, not so for the policemen as a matter of fact.

in other news BCCI has announced 2 crores for the families of the deceased service personnel and 1 crore for the injured.


Very heartening to know that the BCCI has stepped up to the plate. Although a loss like this can never be made up by money, its still a kind gesture.

Referring to your point about the police personnel not being referred to by rank, as for the correct forms of address, for the police personnel, being civil servants and civilians, they do not, as a matter of convention use ranks when referring to an officer. Indeed, the police service doesnt really have ranks. Whereas a person may be an Inspector General of Police, that is not a rank, but technically, an appointment, or post. That same officer may tomorrow be a Joint Commissioner of Police, or a Joint Secretary, or a Managing Director of the Police Housing Corp, and he is no longer an IGP, but filling his new post. So they do not retain "ranks" as such.

The rank and title of Major General, by comparison, is a rank title. A Maj. Gen. can also hold the appointment (post) of Inspector General in a CPO, or MD of the AWHO, or a Div Cdr, but he will also always be a Major General and referred to thus. To illustrate the distinction, a rank is actually a title (which remains even after retirement, and in all situations). The constitution of India provides that "no title which is not a military or academic distinction will be conferred by the state" (Article 18). Military titles, and academic titles like professor, are thus the only ranks which the constitution of India recognises.

Whereas it would not be incorrect, to say "IGP So and so", while a police officer holds that appointment, it is akin to saying "Joint Secretary So and So" or "Company Managing Director So and So" and is not in vogue. Generally a police officer is referred to as "Mr. So and so", for example, "Mr. BN Mullick".

In either case, saying "Commando So and So" is, only for training, and after the same, they are referred to by their proper ranks, even in the NSG. I admit, I grew a bit confused, when I referred to the Rediff article. But what I said is also confirmed below. I would imagine what was written in the Rediff article is just a misconception on the part of the author.

RayC wrote:Since I am a dinosaur as far as the 'latest' in the Army etc, I rang up an officer of mine who was in the NSG on the issue of ranks being used or are they addressed as 'Commandos'. He confirmed that ranks are used and this 'Commando' stuff is during training.
.


One should not think I am being dogmatic, or insisting upon my point. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of BR is to promote knowledge, and when a misconception is cleared, we all benefit from knowing about it.
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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 17 Dec 2008 13:43

RayC and ASP, thanks to both of you for your explanations.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Anshul » 17 Dec 2008 14:16

RayC wrote:Vasu,

You are sure that in Kargil they rappelled? If so, where?



RayC Sir .....Kargil being quite fresh in my mind.I have no documentation to support that they rappeled.The craggy mountanious features ensured that rappelling wasn't feasible.Adding to that was the threat of manpads.

Yes there was a ghatak platoon deployed under Capt.Sachin Nimbalkar and Lt.Balwan Singh (18th Grenadiers)to capture Tiger Top.That was a para - drop which miserably failed as the drop location was missed by miles.The commandos were dropped in midst of a valley surrounded by mountains.The ghatak team suffered six dead and were pinned by accurate fire from the surrounding hill tops for 72 hrs.They could only get off after pinpoint shelling provided the required cover.

Rappeling is more suited to hostage rescue like nariman house,desert and jungle ops.This again is subjective and can be employed on a case to case basis.

Sikh LI at the Jaffna university is a great example.Most of the paras were shot dead even before they could take positions.LTTE was aware of actual drop zones and had setup LMGs and snipers on ground level and tree-tops.The MI-8s had been bady hit with 50 cal shells.So surprise is something that you need with this tactic...otherwise prepare to be surprised.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby Sachin » 17 Dec 2008 15:15

ssiva wrote:8. Why couldn't we immediately use the hotel map and convert it into a softare map and use it in SATHI systems for finding path within the hotel. These things are very much possible but i can see NSG is still being headed by people who are in 1950;s mode.

SATHI (a good invention/concept BTW) was tested in far more relaxing conditions in J&K. It failed. The army team who worked on SATHI said that it was too slow, and was not fit for very quick operations. This was around 2-3 years back, and I don't think any improvisations were made on it.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby KiranM » 17 Dec 2008 15:20

RayC wrote:Kiran.

Hotels do not have grills or do they? One would like a seamless view and grills obstruct that.


From the TV footage I could make out grills on few windows. I am aware hotels do have the windows for view as you say. But they are made of thick glass slabs to withstand the elements. Certainly not flimsy for commandos to breakdown by abseiling.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby Anshul » 17 Dec 2008 15:29

Sachin wrote:SATHI (a good invention/concept BTW) was tested in far more relaxing conditions in J&K. It failed. The army team who worked on SATHI said that it was too slow, and was not fit for very quick operations. This was around 2-3 years back, and I don't think any improvisations were made on it.


This was a ARMY - Encore project.I wonder why the army backed off.The feedback would have led to faster versions.It did have GPS and radio.Probably the download of the maps was an issue.One step back for the smart soldier project.

I assume its use has been downplayed.Too expensive for the normal unit.I did see a functional unit sometime back.Looks good and is user friendly.The icons too are standard and easy to comprehend.Zooming and unzooming symbols on maps is possible.Lat - Long is also displayed for way points.

Battery life was an issue.
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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack (News and Pics ONLY)

Postby Sachin » 17 Dec 2008 15:38

Anshul wrote:This was a ARMY - Encore project.I wonder why the army backed off.The feedback would have led to faster versions.It did have GPS and radio.Probably the download of the maps was an issue.One step back for the smart soldier project.

From what I could understand was that the communication between these SATHI devices were slow. So troops on very serious operations could not sync-up fast. SATHI had a way to do away with radio communication (telephony), and points etc. can be shared across team by marking it on their SATHI devices. Don't know if ENCORE is now modifying SATHI or have abandoned it.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 17 Dec 2008 19:56

Frankly once there is no news - the threads disintegrate into asinine arguments.

And I would not care a rats behind about it except ... when people make irresponsible posts.

eg.
from Anshul


Sikh LI at the Jaffna university is a great example.Most of the paras were shot dead even before they could take positions.



Now we have from the BR IPKF section as much info as possible as to what happened on that raid , the exact losses- yet we get a statement which is simply incorrect. Most were shot dead and yet the paras(SF) fought through the night!!!

Now if this is incorrect what credibility to anything else posted by this user

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 17 Dec 2008 20:02

Army hardpressed to provide officers for four NSG hubs
16 Dec 2008, 2123 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit, TNN

NEW DELHI: Already grappling with an acute shortage of officers, the Army will have a tough time in providing manpower to the four regional
National Security Guard hubs announced by the Centre in the aftermath of the Mumbai terror strikes.

Calculations underway in the defence ministry show the Army may have to contribute as many as 570 officers, 1,680 JCOs and 9,800 soldiers in phases for the four proposed NSG hubs. "In Phase-I itself, this will mean around 220 officers, 600 JCOs and 3,470 soldiers,'' said a ministry source.

The Army already contributes around 140 officers, 520 JCOs and 3,800 soldiers to the 7,500-strong NSG. The Special Action Group (SAG) of NSG, tasked with anti-terror operations, is exclusively manned by Army personnel on deputation.

The NSG's Special Rangers Group (SRG), in turn, which draws its personnel from paramilitary forces like BSF, ITBP, RAF and CRPF, basically acts in a supporting role, apart from also providing VIP protection. The overall training in NSG is also handled by Army.

Apart from criticism that such a vast expansion of an elite force like NSG will lead to dilution in standards, there are several other problems dogging the plan to create the four NSG hubs.

For one, states are jostling with each other to ensure the hubs are located within their respective territories. Initially, the four hubs were to be located at Mumbai, Chennai, Bhopal and Kolkata.

But the move has got embroiled in narrow politics. Congress chief ministers of Assam and Andhra Pradesh, Tarun Gogoi and Y S Rajasekhar Reddy, have already pitched for shifting the Kolkata one to Guwahati and the Bhopal one to Hyderabad, respectively. Then, there is tussle between Chennai and Thiruvananthapuram for the South Indian hub.

Moreover, it's not going to be easy to locate a minimum of 1,000 acres in each city for the hub, and that too near the airport. "It will simply not be possible in a city like Mumbai, and that will add to the reaction time in case of an emergency,'' said an official.

The manpower crunch, similarly, will be difficult to resolve, especially with both SAG and SRG already short of personnel. The Army, on its part, has an "authorised'' strength of 46,615 officers but is making do with only 35,387 at present, with almost all these vacancies being in the "fighting ranks'' of Lt-Colonels, Majors, Captains and Lieutenants.

Floundering to attract bright youngsters to their fold, the armed forces are also haemorrhaging under the mounting number of serving officers wanting to shed their uniforms due to low salaries, disruption in family lives and poor promotional avenues.

Latest figures show as many as 2,306 officers from Army alone have taken premature retirement (PMR) since 2004. These, of course, are the lucky ones. The number of officers who have sought PMR is several times that of those who have managed to get it.

"An infantry battalion (800-1,000 soldiers) is authorised 22 officers but even those deployed in forward areas or counter-insurgency operations are making do with just 13-14,'' said an official.

Moreover, a large chunk of the regular 1.13-million Army is also manning the 63-battalion strong Rashtriya Rifles, the specialised counter-insurgency force created in 1990 for Jammu and Kashmir.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Dec 2008 20:32

Anshul wrote:[
Sikh LI at the Jaffna university is a great example. Most of the paras were shot dead even before they could take positions.LTTE was aware of actual drop zones and had setup LMGs and snipers on ground level and tree-tops.


Anshul,

So according to you, out of 120 para cdos how many were shot dead even before they could take positions? Please read B-R's excellent set of articles on the Jaffna Heli drop:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1987IPKF/Chapter3.html

It is definitely the most detailed account of that unfortunate incident that I have ever read. Kudos to whoever authored that page.
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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Dec 2008 20:36

satya,

I have no problems with what you state below coz that has happened or happens in every country's military. I think the problem which I see from some of the newbie posts on this thread is people going gaga over whatever fancy geegaw and hollywood tactic they can dream of from ironman and superman and passing it on as something the SF should use! This is ridiculous and downright insulting to the intelligence of the men who actually serve in the units being discussed.

satya wrote:Raja Bose
Views expressed by armchair special-ops specialists here do reflect one thing common prevailing in India including serving security top brass & its the question of what's the real purpose of special-ops forces & how do they fit in our current internal & external security scenario .Seems like things haven't changed much since '99 & COIN ops pre & post 99 when special- ops personnels were used more or less as 'infantry' .

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Dec 2008 20:41

vasu_ray wrote:anyways thanks KiranM for your patient reply and for you bose.D.K, who knows one would see a major upgrade in the NSG's equipment next time around including owning helis, metal cutters, wall binos, sniper-copters blah blah, its a sad business when lessons are learnt with lost lives.


Mr. vasu_ray,

Unfortunately it seems you neither have the intelligence to post coherently nor have the guts to call someone a name to his face. Even while hiding behind a keyboard you feel the need to hide the name calling as a legitimate word to get past the B-R admins who dont know Hindi. :roll:

Admins: Please note, the above bolded word in vasu_ray's post is a Hindi abuse (written phonetically) and is considered to be another term for motherf*****

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 17 Dec 2008 20:53

dealt with. thanks for the heads up.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby RayC » 18 Dec 2008 07:02

AS Puar

One should not think I am being dogmatic, or insisting upon my point. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of BR is to promote knowledge, and when a misconception is cleared, we all benefit from knowing about it.


Just what I am trying to convey and trying my best to promote i.e. knowledge and facts.

That is why I rang up this officer of mine who served with the NSG just to be sure that what I am writing is correct.

I knew that the NSG does use ranks, but I wanted to be totally sure before commenting.

Anshul,

Could you give any link to indicate that Sachin Nimbalkar, who was commanding D Company with the Commando platoon of his, were para dropped?

I am not aware of either (rappelling or paradrop) nor did I hear of it. 18 Grenadiers is an infantry unit and not trained in parachuting. Therefore, maybe I have not understood what you maybe conveying.

Having commanded my battalion in Dras and Dalunang as also having been in the Kargil Ops, while the mountains are craggy, with sheer cuts, sheer spines, some places glaciated, yet, one can rappel there. The reason why it was not done is because of the hostile AD environment and lack of knowledge about the areas held by the enemy and with how much.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby hnair » 18 Dec 2008 07:21

Raja Bose/Surya, check out some of the more moronic sounding of the post-Mumbai members' post/comments trail. illuminating.

Waiting for the suggestion to get BARC irradiated spiders as part of standard NSG gear...... Any moment a bug-eyed poster will go "How come NSG did not use these critters in Mumbai ops, BARC being close by?" :((

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Anshul » 18 Dec 2008 17:06

Hi Surya,
Sorry for messing up the Paras with the Sikh LI.The Sikh LI was what i had in mind and had no intentions of misleading the forum.The paras were not the target of my discussion.They actually came out with flying colours in the ops.

I just wanted to talk about rappelling and add on to the discussion.

Bose Sir...I will try to get the source....most likely India Today.It read...something like this...."Capt.Nimbalkar with his ghatak platoon para - dropped / heli - dropped (to be verified) the previous night was facing ....enemy gunfire....took shelter under a rock overlooking a cliff".

I know 18th Grenadiers is an infantry unit.Para - trained or not is something you know better.

This is what i can recall....need to turn the pages of my kargil archives.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 18 Dec 2008 18:53

Anshul

Even Sikh LI did not lose most of its men in the drop off. They were lost in the subsequent night long battle.


I would be surprised if any ghatak company was heli dropped in Kargil - Risk was too much as there was confusion on where the enemy were.


Having seen my friend plan out SHBO - I doubt if the IAF would even consider it in the first few weeks of the Kargil situation

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby vasu_ray » 19 Dec 2008 13:04

sorry Raja Bose, I intended to add pun by mangling your name, I guess you have interpreted it at a deeper level, I don't know you that much for me to get interacting at that level for any reason. Yours was just a sarcastic post.

As far as me being a newbie goes, I have been on this forum since Kargil and I have seen folks here.

Simply put, nobody here can take criticism on our special forces. I wish I hadn't seen the two SF casualties on our side, of course the terrorists were playing the hostage game.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby RayC » 20 Dec 2008 07:35

Anshul wrote:Bose Sir...I will try to get the source....most likely India Today.It read...something like this...."Capt.Nimbalkar with his ghatak platoon para - dropped / heli - dropped (to be verified) the previous night was facing ....enemy gunfire....took shelter under a rock overlooking a cliff".

I know 18th Grenadiers is an infantry unit.Para - trained or not is something you know better.

This is what i can recall....need to turn the pages of my kargil archives.


Just a point for record.

There has been no paradrop in ops after 1971.

There was NO paradrop or helidrops in the Kargil ops.

HALO and HAHO is used in High Altitude and HAP is required so as to adjust the speed of descent.

A Ridge Too Far by Capt Amarinder Singh is an ideal reference book on Kargil Ops. He came to Kargil and interviewed the officers and troops and then wrote the book.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 20 Dec 2008 11:11

RayC wrote:There was NO paradrop or helidrops in the Kargil ops.


Hi Ray, were there any such ops by Pakistan Army?

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby RayC » 20 Dec 2008 22:37

Aditya G wrote:
RayC wrote:There was NO paradrop or helidrops in the Kargil ops.


Hi Ray, were there any such ops by Pakistan Army?


Guess!

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 20 Dec 2008 23:41

RayC wrote:
Aditya G wrote:
RayC wrote:There was NO paradrop or helidrops in the Kargil ops.


Hi Ray, were there any such ops by Pakistan Army?


Guess!


This is not a reply! :((

As far as I know; on one occassion SSG launched SHBO in a battle with Indian Army para bn (dont remember the peak).

Apart from that there Pak army aviation was pretty active in supply missions. Dont know if these were over indian terriotory as well.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby RayC » 21 Dec 2008 07:52

Pakistan did carry out supply missions.

ARC claimed that they had observed six Pakistani helicopters, mules etc within Indian territory.

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Re: MARCOS & NSG ops in Mumbai Attack :Discussion Thread

Postby George J » 21 Dec 2008 08:32

Has this been posted before?

New NSG hubs an obstacle course

To begin with, the NSG would require a minimum 1,000 acres of land in each of the four cities in which it plans to set up its regional hubs — this would be the very least required to set up training grounds, infrastructure for training and management, residential facilities and office areas. Incidentally, NSG’s garrison at Manesar in Gurgaon, its sole training facility, is spread over an area of 1,600 acres.


I guess BRF is too good to discuss bread and butter issues. Its either hot air or pure wet dreams like tea at RYK. Anything to escape reality.

What does this mean?

Simple, all the gusto of setting up NSG centers will soon die out unless states like MH, KT, WB, TN etc are not willing to cough up 1000 acres of prime land to establish NSG centers. Jee....should we give up prime land for a few kamadoos when we can simply sell that as SEZ or industrial parks.

One more story from ToI:
Army hardpressed to provide officers for four NSG hubs

For one, states are jostling with each other to ensure the hubs are located within their respective territories. Initially, the four hubs were to be located at Mumbai, Chennai, Bhopal and Kolkata.

But the move has got embroiled in narrow politics. Congress chief ministers of Assam and Andhra Pradesh, Tarun Gogoi and Y S Rajasekhar Reddy, have already pitched for shifting the Kolkata one to Guwahati and the Bhopal one to Hyderabad, respectively. Then, there is tussle between Chennai and Thiruvananthapuram for the South Indian hub.

Moreover, it's not going to be easy to locate a minimum of 1,000 acres in each city for the hub, and that too near the airport. "It will simply not be possible in a city like Mumbai, and that will add to the reaction time in case of an emergency,'' said an official.


I can't speak for other states but MH is going to have a tough time finding 1000 acres of practical land. It would have to be beyond New Bombay for it to be practical and if that is what is chosen then the MARCOS are going to be still closer from INS Abhimanyu.

Now that we know that having tea at RYK is another travel advisory sponsored wet dream the best thing that MH can do is leverage the assets it already has: MARCOS. Training a few SRPF pandus in kamando kourse will not impart them the experience or the skill set of the MARCOS or even the NSG. This will become another shoddy debacle like the motorcycle kamandus.


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