Indian Naval Discussion

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Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Oct 2011 15:38


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Oct 2011 16:47



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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Oct 2011 11:45


ramana
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 29 Oct 2011 22:20




From the author:

OSCAR STANLEY DAWSON (1924 - 2011 )

UNASSUMING, YET A VISIONARY

By C Uday Bhaskar

With Admiral Oscar Stanley Dawson’s passing away in Bangalore on
Sunday (Oct 23) the flag has been lowered on the last of the World
War II veterans who burnished the office of the Chief of Naval Staff
(CNS).
A surprise choice, when his name was announced as CNS to
succeed the much revered Ronnie Periera on March 1, 1982 - Dawson
was the first flag officer to reach South Block from Cochin – where he
was the FOC-in-C, Southern Naval Command (SNC) – without having done
the honors in Bombay, HQ Western Naval Command – the traditional
transition till then for elevation to the office of the CNS .

But Stan Dawson , (b. 1924 ) the dark horse at the time was alleged
to have been hand-picked to steer the Indian Navy (IN) by PM Indira
Gandhi, who had spent a few days at sea with the SNC in late1981
and was reportedly very impressed by the perspicacity and vision of
the unassuming and stocky Admiral.
In the 33 months that he was at the
helm of the IN, Admiral Dawson (better known as Stan) proved that he
was indeed the wielder of a very discerning telescope.

The IN remains the Cinderella service in the Indian military matrix
and receives the smallest slice of the defence pie in comparison to
the Army and the Air Force. Yet it is the only service that is truly
trans-border and hence strategic in the national quiver and if today
the profile of the IN is what it is – much of the credit belongs to
Stan who consolidated and built on what he had inherited from his
predecessors.


The IN’s new naval establishment in Karwar, Karnataka – INS Kadamba –
earlier known as Project Seabird was Stan’s baby and not only did
he envisage the need for the IN to have an alternate base to Bombay
but was able to work the maze of the government to ensure funding
support for what seemed like a pipe-dream. Admiral Dawson was enabled
to a great extent by then Defence Minister R Venkataraman . The other
major project that was nurtured on the Stan watch was the setting up
of a dedicated naval academy at Ezhimala
.

Indian military Chiefs have an onerous task in being at the apex of
both staff and operational responsibilities – one long-term and
strategic ; the other immediate and tactical.
On occasion they wear
a joint hat as Chairman of the COSC. Concurrently they are in the
invidious position of being outside the policy loop of higher defence
management, which has become the sole prerogative of the Indian
politico-bureaucratic dyad. Maintaining both balance and equipoise
amidst complex turf battles and institutionally ingrained domain
protection can be lonely and arduous at the best of times . To his
credit, Admiral Dawson maintained a fine line and his operational
competence and long term vision in the furtherance of the service
interest was acknowledged in the Navy. As Director Naval Operations
(DNO) during the 1971 operations, Stan provided the appropriate
support to his Chief – one of the less noted feathers in his
multi-splendoured cap.


Admiral Dawson was a hard task-master and always set the bar high, suffering neither fools nor lotus-eaters gladly, thus evoking mixed feelings. As Admiral Arun Prakash, one of his successors as CNS (2004 – 06) recalls: “ A master of the ‘professional ambush’, cunningly laid to entrap the unwary or over-confident nautical poseur, Stan was feared
and admired – in equal measure – by a Service which found it difficult
to reconcile his deep conservatism on matters of profession and of
naval tradition, with flashes of out-of-the-box thinking that he was
wont to display.”

Karnataka has come onto the nation’s maritime map thanks to Admiral
Dawson - a man of many parts: seasoned naval professional, gifted
piano player, ardent church goer; not devoid of personal quirks but a loyal friend.

India has little respect or recall of its military leaders - Sam Manekshaw being
case in point . Though uncharacteristic, it would be befitting if
Karwar commemorates the memory of its most illustrious sailor in
a modest but dignified manner.

( The author is Senior Fellow, NMF, New Delhi.)




Maybe Karwar should be named INS Dawson?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 30 Oct 2011 12:26

Lord,how we miss Indira Gandhi! What a leader,to be able to spot genuine leadership and reward it,as she did by making Stan Dawson CNS.If not for her objectivity on many matters,we would be very sadly off today.I remember a former CNS telling me how he was being massively pressurised by the PMO of the day to promote an officer with influence to flag rank.He sought an appointment with the PM.She was first annoyed that he was resisting the promotion,but after listening to his detailed assessment of the officer in question,agreed with him and the promotion was denied.

Compare the situ today.It calls for sackcloth and ashes.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 31 Oct 2011 14:26

Today is the death anniversary of IG.May she also RIP.

http://www.asianage.com/columnists/indi ... rtions-171

India’s naval assertions
Oct 30, 2011
Adm. (retd) Arun Kumar Singh
The writer retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam


India needs to remember what Prussian king Fredrick the Great meant when he said: “Diplomacy without military power is like music without instruments.” Our policymakers could make a start by reading Kautilya’s 2000-year-old Arthashastra and investing wisely, and quietly, in strategic national defence, which will be an insurance against war.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 31 Oct 2011 20:12

not sure how this is realted to Indian Naval, but this article is something to ponder over!
Craze for mini-submarines, the latest toys for India's super rich

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 01 Nov 2011 13:00

The open criticism by the Wipro chief Premji,of the UPA led govt. with the towering figure of Dr. Maun Maun Singh leading it,that its indecision and corruption is harming the nation's growth,cannot be better explained by the foll. report about the delay in decision making regarding the second line of conventional AIP subs,desperately required by the IN which faces a massive PLAN fleet of 80+ new subs by 2020 and a Paki sub fleet of new AIP subs of at least 12+.MMS is frankly clueles about defence and security and understands foreign affairs best to the extent that it is an invitation to sit ane be eentertained at the higest tables abroad,preferably western ones and to listen and obey their words of advice and commands! AKA,who as the TOI report says,should "crack the whip",is so scared of controversies,that he gingerly takes one step forward at a time when what is needed is a fast gallop to the post in view of the dragon-pig combine.Read on.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 561815.cms

India falters in getting its new submarine plan off the block
Rajat Pandit, TNN | Nov 1, 2011,

NEW DELHI: The country's long-delayed 'Project-75India' to acquire six new-generation stealth submarines has gone into such a tailspin that it will take at least another two-three years to be even finalized.

With it taking six-seven years to build an advanced submarine, the Navy is faced with the chilling prospect of getting the P-75I boats much beyond 2020, leaving its conventional underwater combat arm without the requisite punch it will need to deter China and Pakistan.

Top defence sources say floating of the global tender or RFP (request for proposal) for the critical P-75I, which envisages manufacture of the six submarines with international collaboration for over Rs 50,000 crore, "is still several months away".

Originally, three of the submarines were to be constructed at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai, while another came up at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam. The other two were to be either imported from the foreign collaborator or built by a domestic private shipyard, as first reported by TOI last year.

But with the Navy and the MoD pulling in different directions on the shipyards which should execute P-75I, coupled with defence minister A K Antony failing to crack the whip and the PMO itself getting involved, three committees were constituted one after the other to examine the project.

Feedback on the report of the third committee, headed by technocrat V Krishnamurthy, which assessed the infrastructure and capabilities in private shipyards like L&T, Pipavav and ABG to manufacture submarines, will now be submitted to the defence acquisitions council (DAC) chaired by Antony.

"The RFP can be issued only by mid-2012 at the earliest," said a source. Complex negotiations will thereafter follow with the foreign vendors (Russian Rosoboronexport, French DCNS, German HDW and Spanish Navantia) because the submarines have to be equipped with both tube-launched missiles for land-attack capabilities as well as air-independent propulsion for greater underwater endurance.

"The actual contract is likely to be inked only by 2014-15. So, in effect, we are now looking at inducting the first P-75I submarine by 2022 or so," he said.

This when the 30-year submarine-building plan approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security in 1999 envisaged induction of 12 new submarines by 2012, followed by another dozen by 2030.

But 12 years down the line, not a single new submarine has been inducted. Even the ongoing Rs 23,562-crore 'Project-75' to build six French Scorpene submarines at MDL is running three years behind schedule, with the induction delayed to 2015-20.

The Navy will be left with just two to three of its existing 10 Russian Kilo-class and four German HDW submarines by 2022. Consequently, even with the six Scorpenes, the nation will fall far short of the minimum of 18 conventional submarines required to deter Pakistan and China.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 01 Nov 2011 19:10


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Nov 2011 19:19

MDL claims that they can make 2 Scorpean subs per year from 2014 onwards. If the orders for the additional boats is placed immediately. Potentially the IN will be looking at 12 Scorpean subs by 2020-21.

But the IN will not push for this option. They know what they want (I assume). I am sure that if the navy wants a repeat of the Arihant class. They can have at least 5 by 2020, if, additional unmodified boats are ordered immediately. While the industrial capicity is built in order to built 2 or 3 boats/ year by 2016/17. So yes the situation looks poor, but the solution is also in hand.

Decide and act on it. Pleeeeease.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JTull » 01 Nov 2011 19:52

Pratyush wrote:MDL claims that they can make 2 Scorpean subs per year from 2014 onwards. If the orders for the additional boats is placed immediately. Potentially the IN will be looking at 12 Scorpean subs by 2020-21.

But the IN will not push for this option. They know what they want (I assume). I am sure that if the navy wants a repeat of the Arihant class. They can have at least 5 by 2020, if, additional unmodified boats are ordered immediately. While the industrial capicity is built in order to built 2 or 3 boats/ year by 2016/17. So yes the situation looks poor, but the solution is also in hand.

Decide and act on it. Pleeeeease.


Classic sarkari technique. Once you place the order, it will be 1 sub every 2 years, if we're lucky.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Nov 2011 20:31

Well, perhaps they will make the second by outsourcing it to one of the PVT yards. :P

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishnan » 01 Nov 2011 20:59

they will outsource both, probably put a tender for it

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 01 Nov 2011 21:38

Ouch, how could I ever ignore the possibility.

Must be my old age.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Nov 2011 06:49

My wild guess: MRCA and Submarine tender are related. France will get either one. Interestingly I had just mentioned 12 scorps in my last post yesterday (or was it day before?)

Cm

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 02 Nov 2011 13:32

On the subject of Submarines. Will the Russies be keeping the proposed time line for the hand over of the Chakra. Or the subs interiors will need a new paint job on the same colour.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Nov 2011 15:11

Pratyush wrote:On the subject of Submarines. Will the Russies be keeping the proposed time line for the hand over of the Chakra. Or the subs interiors will need a new paint job on the same colour.


I dont have a crystal ball but as per available information , there is a 15 day trial scheduled by joint indo-russian submarine crew starting from October 30. After the result of trials are assessed and readiness guaranteed to the satisfaction of Indian, the transfer of Nerpa is scheduled to happen between Nov 22-23.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2011 17:43

The second line of subs has to be able to carry Brahmos and also have AIP propulsion.The Scorpene cannot accomodate Brahmos,which is a key requisite of the MOD/IN for the second line.Instead of buying/building more Scorpenes,I have said many a time that we should instead acquire more U-boats from Germany,and thus possess both AIP systems,fuel-cell and MESMA and evaluate both.The Pakis already have MESMA and are even acquiring the AIP Stirling engine tech from the Chinese which have acquired it from the Swedes/west aboard their Yuan class subs.It will be a continuum for our submariners who serve aboard our 4 U-209s to maintain their knowledge of German sub-tech by acquiring the U-214s or a specially modified U-209 design for the IN,with AIP,which will eventually replace the 4 U-boats in service.These boats will be primarily meant for anti-sub ops while the second line Brahmos subs would be best obtained from Russia-either the Rubin Amur/Lada design with a Brahmos and AIP compartment,or the joint Italian-Russian design.These subs will steadily replace older Kilos,as thse which have been refitted to carry the Klub missile still have lots of life left in them.


24 conventional AIP subs and 12 nuclear boats (6 SSBN and 6 SSGN) anbd a dozen mini-subs, are the minimum reqd.,as China alone will possess about 80 subs by 2020,40-50 of them newly built ones according to US sources.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 02 Nov 2011 17:48

JTull wrote:
Pratyush wrote:MDL claims that they can make 2 Scorpean subs per year from 2014 onwards. If the orders for the additional boats is placed immediately. Potentially the IN will be looking at 12 Scorpean subs by 2020-21.

But the IN will not push for this option. They know what they want (I assume). I am sure that if the navy wants a repeat of the Arihant class. They can have at least 5 by 2020, if, additional unmodified boats are ordered immediately. While the industrial capicity is built in order to built 2 or 3 boats/ year by 2016/17. So yes the situation looks poor, but the solution is also in hand.

Decide and act on it. Pleeeeease.


Classic sarkari technique. Once you place the order, it will be 1 sub every 2 years, if we're lucky.

I will still be happy if we can get single Scorpene commissioned before 2015 as for the sub itself IN needs to look for larger SSK platform or even switch to nuclear submarine fleet, as it stands it size poses too many limitations (no standoff missiles, limited submerged range etc). And we are not saving much going with smaller platform as the price itself is on par with larger SSNs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2011 18:24

John,quite right,as the game is now expanding beyond the IOR region,into the Indo-China Sea.The study by Oz too for their future subs,require along-endurance,AIP sub that can carry a substantial weaponload.Since much of the action will be in littoral waters,quiet AIP smaller conventional subs will be more effective in these waters,than nuclear boats,as the US is finding out with its lease/exercising of diesel boats.If we are able to develop the basic ATV design so that there is much commonality between the SSBN and SSGN variants,production would be faster and more cost-effective,as the US has innovatively used ex-SSBN Ohios converted into the SSGN role.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Nov 2011 00:19

Philip wrote:The second line of subs has to be able to carry Brahmos and also have AIP propulsion.The Scorpene cannot accomodate Brahmos,which is a key requisite of the MOD/IN for the second line.Instead of buying/building more Scorpenes,I have said many a time that we should instead acquire more U-boats from Germany,and thus possess both AIP systems,fuel-cell and MESMA and evaluate both.The Pakis already have MESMA and are even acquiring the AIP Stirling engine tech from the Chinese which have acquired it from the Swedes/west aboard their Yuan class subs.It will be a continuum for our submariners who serve aboard our 4 U-209s to maintain their knowledge of German sub-tech by acquiring the U-214s or a specially modified U-209 design for the IN,with AIP,which will eventually replace the 4 U-boats in service.These boats will be primarily meant for anti-sub ops while the second line Brahmos subs would be best obtained from Russia-either the Rubin Amur/Lada design with a Brahmos and AIP compartment,or the joint Italian-Russian design.These subs will steadily replace older Kilos,as thse which have been refitted to carry the Klub missile still have lots of life left in them.


24 conventional AIP subs and 12 nuclear boats (6 SSBN and 6 SSGN) and a dozen mini-subs, are the minimum reqd.,as China alone will possess about 80 subs by 2020,40-50 of them newly built ones according to US sources.


Well, the u-209/214 with Brahmos is not a given, however, iirc, HDW had shown some inclination there. And mayhaps that is what will transpire - German u boats and French Rafales each with options to modify to INdian needs. OR perhaps German Tiffys and Fr/Spa S-80s? Roosies and Yanks left out of the entire sub/MRCA drama? But then the Russians have their share through the Pakfa and the US is being mollified with useful, albeit expensive deals such as the Apache, C130, C17, (and the M777 guns I hope).

So we have about $ 30 billion for Russia, $ 25bln+ for Eur, and another $ 20 bill for the Yanks figured. All nicely spread out, wot? Still leaves about $ 25 billion out of the 100 billion defence pie. I guess Israel, JVs, and hopefully purely indigenous hardware will lap up the rest.

After this spree, I hope India never has to spend such proportions outside her boundaries.

CM.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 03 Nov 2011 03:25

Japan, India to begin joint naval military training
Indian Defense Minister A. K. Antony is making a brief visit to Japan to consolidate an increasingly intimate bilateral relationship. Here he was greeted by his Japanese counterpart, Defense Minister Yasuo Ichikawa and allowed to inspect the Honor Guard.


Antony's visit symbolizes the growing links between these two Asian nations.

Until the 1990s, the Japanese military always used to stay at home, but now they are seen more and more around the world.

One of the places the Japanese navy is now seen is in the Indian Ocean and the Gulf of Aden, where they have been deployed on a Somali anti-piracy mission since early 2009.

During these talks between the two militaries, the spotlight was being put on a new initiative by which the Japanese and Indian navies would begin unprecedented bilateral joint military drills.

As the Indian media is reporting, the military link between Japan and India has been continuously promoted by Japan's former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, and the new Japanese prime minister appears to share much of his conservative philosophy.

Yoshimasa Hayashi, a former defense minister and now a opposition party lawmaker, spoke to Press TV about a conversation he had with a ruling party lawmaker.

The conservative trend in Japan by which security policies are prioritized is well reflected in Japan's growing engagement with the Indian armed forces


Good News clip watch it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 03 Nov 2011 03:34

Philip wrote:Lord,how we miss Indira Gandhi! What a leader,to be able to spot genuine leadership and reward it,as she did by making Stan Dawson CNS.If not for her objectivity on many matters,we would be very sadly off today.I remember a former CNS telling me how he was being massively pressurised by the PMO of the day to promote an officer with influence to flag rank.He sought an appointment with the PM.She was first annoyed that he was resisting the promotion,but after listening to his detailed assessment of the officer in question,agreed with him and the promotion was denied.

Compare the situ today.It calls for sackcloth and ashes.


We'd also still be in license raj mode. She hated any private industry/industrial ventures that would lessen the babu file power. No Infosys, TCS, Reliance, mobile phones or cars other than Marutis. No 500 TV channels. well, the last may have been a good thing considering the drivel they spout. :)

She was capricious beyond belief.

Lesson is different horses for different courses. Unfortunately we've lame ones right now.

JMT

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 03 Nov 2011 06:29

She was the only Indian leader with b$lls! But she did hold the economy back for tooo long and I hope the damage is not irrecoverable. If we had liberalized earlier, India would have been ahead of China.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 03 Nov 2011 09:29

I think the only AIP India should explore is perhaps a 0.5-2MW nuclear battery type option. Have lots of large battery arrays and small nuclear battery to constantly keep it topped up. Should be able to provide a pretty awesome little diesel boat that travel quite a large portion of its mission totally submerged.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Nov 2011 10:16

is this a new concept or been proven somewhere?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 03 Nov 2011 10:30

^^^

There was a discussion on a tea kettle nuke reactor powered submarine on the AFM some time on the recent past. That would be a good concept for a sub, whose deployment area is close to home. One russian experimental boat is in the water with a displacement of 3000 tons . (B 90 named Sorov)

B90

AFM Thread


WRT, the P75I and the Indian decision to opt for a foreign partner. We need to understand one thing very clearly. At the moment no SSK exists that can fire the Brahmos in any condition. A sub will have to be designed with clean sheet of paper. Which of the foreign yards are capable of designing a clean sheet SSK primarily for the export market at the moment. Also keeping in view the MOD stupidity of having two different vendors for any tender to be accepted. You are looking at a full fledged disaster with the P 75I.

Unless they are able to some how adapt the Arihant design to use a conventional power plant. We are not going to get a new SSK capable of meeting the P75I requirement.

PS isn't the Arihant capable of carrying 12 Shorya missiles / Or 4 longer ranged missiles using an alternate arrangement ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 03 Nov 2011 16:57

It all depends upon timing.At that time the global economy did not neccessitate India opening up to it as the outflow of forex would've beggared us.We were still industrialisng and the oil shock of the '70s had its effect.Prudence was required.However,during her return to power after '77 she started to engage with the US more and Sanjay G began to influence the thoughts for a more open economy.Rajiv took it even further roping in the NRIs and Sam P.
When it came to securing the nation's security,she has been exceptional and has had no equal.She even signed her own death warrant with Op. Bluestar,willing to take a decision which would bring her the hatred of almost the entire Sikh community and massive denunciation from others.

Back to P-75I.There has been a design by Rubin for a Brahmos variant of the Amur.The model was seen at a few air shows at the DRDO chalet.The capability of the Amur/Lada in other parameters has been waited for,after the first two subs in Russian service were evaluated.With the signing of the Scorpene deal,there was also no moolah for the second line available,the ATV taking up a huge chink of the budget.IF the Amur is chosen,it will I'm sure carry quite a lot of indigenous eqpt. devloped for the ATV,like the sonar,etc.,but which AIP system will be preferred is amoot point.I think that it is here that the Russians have to convince the IN that their new AIP system is fully developed.It's why I've been anting the IN to acquire the 4 Greek AIP U-214 subs on oder.Greece is now bankrupt and will never be able to afford these subs.Germany is at odds with Israel for the 6th Dolphin because of Israel's settlement policies.This is the right time to strike the iron.Just as the Army is seeking to manufacture Bofors guns,the IN should also order more U-boats to maintain its experience with German subs,moving onto a superior sub than the 4 U-209s we have,which will also have to be replaced in the coming years.The German U-boats can be designed to fire either the French Exocets on order with the Scorpenes,or even the superior Klub series from its tunes.We should be able to easily induct these 4 U-boats before 2020 and decide upon the P-75I connfiguration with Brahmos so that thes eeubs at least start arriving late in the decade.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 03 Nov 2011 17:18

Philip,

The Amur / Lada design was available during the selection of the Scorpion as well (I recall seeing an article comparing the 214 with the Amur / Lada, in an Issue of the Asian Military Review.) The occasion was the HDWs launch of the 214 design for the intl markets. The Indian Navy did not agree to the design back then. There is no reason to believe that it will select the design today.

The P75I will need to be clean sheet design for a simple reason that an Amur will make it a single source deal. Unless some other design can be shown capable of shooting the Brahmos. That is the reason why, I feel. that, it is a disaster in the making.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 03 Nov 2011 18:01

Am I the only person who thinks the Chinese Yuan class is the Russian Lada/Amur class or atleast significantly uses technology and components similar to J-15/Su-33 story?

Lada class https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_cTaL ... -class.jpg
Yuan class http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/20 ... -ss-01.jpg

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Amit J » 03 Nov 2011 18:02

17:45 PM
Early reports say there is major fire at the naval dockyard at Lion's Gate, Mumbai. Details awaited

http://news.rediff.com/commentary/2011/ ... pdates.htm

Hope no Serious damage, loss of life or injury occurs

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Nov 2011 19:08


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gaur » 03 Nov 2011 19:42

According to NDTV, IN has said that the fire was caused by a short circuit.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/fire ... bai-146651

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 03 Nov 2011 21:26

What I hear is that ASD's quarter has been burnt down, it was a heritage building with many historical paintings and artifacts.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 04 Nov 2011 02:18

tsarkar wrote:Am I the only person who thinks the Chinese Yuan class is the Russian Lada/Amur class or atleast significantly uses technology and components similar to J-15/Su-33 story?

Lada class https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_cTaL ... -class.jpg
Yuan class http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/20 ... -ss-01.jpg

Russians (and even Ukrainians) have benefited greatly from PLAN increased spending it would be no surprise if Russia shared Amur design specs with China. As for Amur not sure how potent it is but one of the drawbacks' is Russians are lagging when it comes to Combat management system.

hnair
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hnair » 04 Nov 2011 04:56

That tea-kettle reactor might have all the disadvantages of a full-blown tea-shaap boiler sized reactor(eg: coolant pump noise) with none of its advantages (awesome power). Unless it is a thermoelectric one, in which case it could be totally silent but totally wimpy. Batteries, fuel-cell etc add silence advantage to the diesel sub.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Nov 2011 07:02

if the brahmos is capable of torpedo tube launch, then fitting 2x23" tubes specially for it might be considered, else why not use 21" Klub which we already do - get novator to make a improved Klub2 in same or smaller size. a SSK carries too few weapons to be of use for land attack.

I dont think even the Soryu SSK of JMSDF is big enough to mount VL tubes for brahmos.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Nov 2011 09:29

tsarkar wrote:Am I the only person who thinks the Chinese Yuan class is the Russian Lada/Amur class or atleast significantly uses technology and components similar to J-15/Su-33 story?

Lada class https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_cTaL ... -class.jpg
Yuan class http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/20 ... -ss-01.jpg


Yuan has more of Kilo legacy rather then Amur , since the Chinese are operating advanced model of Kilo for a long time and it would have given them first hand exposure to it plus its possible they might have obtained design drawing of Kilo.

Any resemblance to Amur might be superficial as Amur is a single hull sub and Yuan double hull , Chinese might have looked at all the conventional subs closely before designing the Yuan and consultancy assistance from Rubin Design Bureau cant be ruled out.

tsarkar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 04 Nov 2011 10:36

Ah, I didnt know the Amur was single hulled. India liked the Type 877 double hull, in all those collisions and scrapings, the double hull saved the submarine from significant damage. The German Type 212 went doubled hulled to store hydrogen outside the pressure hull.

One error in my earlier post - its ASD's office and not residence that got gutted.


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