Indian Naval Discussion

karan_mc
BRFite
Posts: 701
Joined: 02 Dec 2006 20:53

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 03 Dec 2011 09:39

Navy awaits nod to use Kolkata airfield to operate UAVs

The Indian Navy is awaiting a final nod from the Airports Authority of India (AAI) to use an airfield in Kolkata to operate unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for surveillance of the maritime border with Bangladesh, a naval officer said Friday.

member_20036
BRFite
Posts: 140
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_20036 » 03 Dec 2011 09:43

Navy to station UAVs at Behala airfield Sagar to get missiles
Dec 3, 2011, 06.10AM IST TNN [ Jayanta Gupta]

KOLKATA:
The Navy will commission a squadron of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) at the Behala airfield in south Kolkata soon. This was announced by Commodore Brian A Thomas, naval officer-in-charge (NOIC), West Bengal, in Kolkata on Friday. The Navy has sought 15 acres at the airfield from the Airports Authority of India (AAI) on a 30-year-lease for this purpose. The AAI has agreed on principle and the formalities are expected to be completed soon.
The coastal battery at Diamond Harbour, set up by the British, has lost its purpose and a new battery will come up at Sagar Island. This battery will comprise missiles to take on enemy ships during aggression, Commandere M Kulshrestha, chief staff officer, said.
The squadron will comprise Searcher and Heron UAVs and will be used for surveillance of the Sunderbans and the Bay of Bengal. Naval UAV bases already exist in Kochi, Porbandar and Chennai. The Navy has also urged the Centre to provide satellite maps of the Sunderbans for better monitoring of the creeks and uninhabited islands. A Rs 20-crore project has also been taken to set up a centre in Kolkata that will monitor the fishing fleet entering the Hooghly through transponders installed in the trawlers and boats.
"Monitoring activity in the Sunderbans is a complex affair. The islands are largely unmapped and the land masses are non-permanent in nature, changing with shifts in the course of the rivers. A lot of fishermen cross over from Bangladesh, Myanmar and also Sri Lanka. Our focus is on infiltration from the sea. We hold coordinated exercises with all agencies involved for this purpose. Now, we have managed to set up an effective communications network between all agencies. We have also succeeded in our coastal security awareness campaigns in which the population living along the coast is asked to convey information of any suspicious movement," Thomas said.
The Navy was very concerned with the route taken by vessels from Bangladesh under the Indo-Bangladesh Trade Protocol. Till recently, the vessels would traverse nearly 160 km from Beharikhal to Namkhana through the Sunderbans without any customs or immigration checks. From June this year, the route has changed and the vessels skirt the Sunderbans and undergo customs and immigration checks at Hemnagar. According to the NOIC, better monitoring of the vessels is now possible.
While nearly 90% of fishing boats operating in the Sunderbans and the Hooghly have already been registered, the Navy wants fishermen to have biometric ID cards. The boats should also have colour codes, depending on the state to which they belong. The colour orange has been chosen for West Bengal. The Navy also wants customs and immigration checks to be carried out on all vessels before they enter the Hooghly. Haldia will also get a Forward Operating Base for better monitoring of activities in the area.
"There are nearly 540 islands in the Sunderbans, most of them uninhabited. There is constant movement of people from Bangladesh. Of the six marine police stations that were to come up in the state in Phase-I, three are already operational. The remaining three are facing some problems over the use of forest land. We have already agreed to provide training - both basic and advanced - to the state police personnel who will man these police stations," Thomas said.

Link:timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata-/Navy-to-station-UAVs-at-Behala-airfield-Sagar-to-get-missiles/articleshow/10965249.cms

member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 03 Dec 2011 10:01

He also said that the IAC-1 has been delayed indefinitely
CJ sir what does that mean ? Does that mean the launch of the IAC-1 has been delayed ?


oh boy

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4735
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Dec 2011 10:46

Said article also states that the Viraat is good for another 10 years! I hope the Shars last that long. If not, I guess, it might be used as an LHD with a bunch of choppers, and increased space for troops/tanks etc.

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1286
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 03 Dec 2011 11:59

chackojoseph wrote:
suryag wrote:CJ sir what does that mean ? Does that mean the launch of the IAC-1 has been delayed ?


Yes.


Are there any public reasons for the delay? Only in August 2011, the RM was quoted as saying that a 75% of hull is complete and a soft launch would be done in Dec 2011. What is the sudden indefinite delay ?
Also, did he confirm if the IAC-2 order has been placed yet? It was going to be placed in 2010 and now 2011 has also gone by without any public confirmation of the status.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Dec 2011 12:16

^^^^ I have updated the IAC-2 part.
INS Vikramaditya to operate from Mumbai

IMO, IAC-1 delay is know. IIRC something to with engines?

Cain Marko,

My estimate is that INS Viraat might go even further. Ad m Joshi was explaining later that the ships that fired tomahawk in gulf war were 80-90 years old. There is nothing old or creaky in Viraat (as I have seen myself). Everything has been replaced, be is plates on hull (where required),boiler liners etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it will be used for training or as a helio carrier later.

member_19648
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_19648 » 03 Dec 2011 12:39

Joseph,

I don't think it would be apt to say IAC-1 is delayed indefinitely. There can be a serious meaning to this and unless it is such, it would be nice if you reword it to delay only. In the other report, it has been mentioned that they hope to launch IAC-1 in 2012 itself and induct it by 2015. So, it is not an indefinite delay.
Last edited by member_19648 on 03 Dec 2011 13:09, edited 1 time in total.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Dec 2011 12:53

:) Thank you for the suggestion. It is difficult to work on others text and I will not be able to back that up later.

karan_mc
BRFite
Posts: 701
Joined: 02 Dec 2006 20:53

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 03 Dec 2011 14:42

wasnt INS Vikramaditya and IAC-1 , was supposed to operate from INS Kadamba ?@ karwar ? . Navy was not happy with heavy traffic which Mumbai port has , and near miss and INS Vindhyagiri which capsized are some of the prime example . Kadamba was designed keeping in mind aircraft carriers and their support ships and INS Hansa in goa will provide any air support .

Ajit.C
BRFite
Posts: 160
Joined: 10 Sep 2008 13:15
Location: Middle East
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Ajit.C » 03 Dec 2011 14:58

The carrier will be in mumbai, Karwar will be used only rarely. so far there has been no initiative to shift any of the capital ships to karwar. No one is keen in moving to Karwar.

Will
BRFite
Posts: 637
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 11:27

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Will » 03 Dec 2011 15:27

IAC-2 to be the same size as IAC-1? :(( :(( :(( . AKA had made comments that it would be in the 64K class a couple of years back :(( :(( :((

saptarishi
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 05 May 2007 01:20
Location: ghaziabad
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saptarishi » 03 Dec 2011 16:24

iac-2 will be of same size as iac-2 ,that meanss it will have stobar and not catobar as american carriers. that is why navy is looking for shore based aew aircraft. iac-3 will be 65000 tonne carrier :roll:

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Dec 2011 16:30

If you look at the picture I have put on that article, in the front end of the ski jump you can see the Island of INS Deepak, which is almost as big as the Carrier. So i guess, they would like to want bigger ships to be accommodated in Mumbai. Secondly, the western shore will be dotted with facilities to hold larger ships and the main repair / refurbishment can be taken in Cochin Shipyard.

As Ajit.c is trying to point out that Karwar is not operational and IMO will not be fully operational till end of the decade. Probably, the base will require missile units and other support. Logically it is not safe to station assets like carrier there.

Will,

I have also pointed out that it is still under consideration.

Ajit.C
BRFite
Posts: 160
Joined: 10 Sep 2008 13:15
Location: Middle East
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Ajit.C » 03 Dec 2011 19:18

Correction Chacko, Karwar has been designed for the very purpose to house the entire western fleet. It has ample protection with Anjadip Island and break waters. It's time Navy starts moving its main assets to Karwar, atleast to justify the crores of money it has spent in constructing it. think currently as per media reports is it houses a tanker, OPV, Survey ship and LST.

Basic inhibition is Karwar as a city has not developed to cope with the influx multi-lingual community, no means of facility for spouses getting job to keep them engaged, no good colleges (these 2 is what keeps everybody at Mumbai) and means of transportation other than Konkan Rail. No airports, nearest being Vasco 3-4 Hours driveI guess.

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arun » 03 Dec 2011 19:55

Excerpt from CNS’ Admiral Nirmal Verma’s Navy Day 2011 speech.

49 ships and submarines are on order for the Indian Navy:
Our preferred choice of inducting ships and submarines has been through the indigenous route and of the 49 ships and submarines presently on order, 45 are from Indian shipyards.


Details of the ships and submarines that are on order and news that orders for MCMV’s and P-17A Frigates will be “soon” concluded:

This year we have concluded eight important contracts which include contracts for four destroyers, five Offshore Patrol Vessels, two Cadet Training Ships, eight Landing Craft Utility and Fast Interceptor Craft for coastal security duties. We are also looking forward to soon concluding contracts for Mine Counter Measure vessels and P 17A frigates.

Amongst the major projects, under construction in Indian shipyards, are the three ships of Kolkata Class (P-15A), four P- 15B ships which are an advanced version of the Kolkata Class and the six P 75 submarines, all at Mazagaon Dock Limited, Mumbai. Four Anti Surface Warfare Corvettes are being built at Garden Reach Ship-builders, Kolkata. In addition, nine Naval Offshore Patrol Vessels are under construction at Goa Shipyard Limited and a private Shipyard. The construction of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier is also progressing.

We expect to induct one Shivalik class frigate – Sahyadri, one Offshore Patrol Vessel, one Kolkata class destroyer, one P-28 ASW Corvette, three Catamaran Hull Survey Vessels and twenty five Fast Interceptor Craft over the next one year.

Amongst the overseas projects, the refurbishment of Vikramaditya is progressing on track and the ship is expected to be delivered in December 2012. The three Follow-on ships of Talwar class, under construction at Russia are likely to be delivered in the time frame 2012-13.


News of what is happening on the Naval Aviation side:

Our maritime surveillance capability is a critical component of maritime security, both in times of peace and conflict, and plays a crucial role in the security of the Maritime Zones of India, as also of our vast coastline. The planned induction of twelve P-8I Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft to add more teeth to this capability, is on schedule. The first flight of the P-8I for the Indian Navy took place on the 28th of September this year and that signals that the programme is well on track. The first aircraft would arrive in India by Jan 13. Acquisition of Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance aircraft is also being progressed concurrently.

The delivery of 16 carrier borne MiG 29K aircraft, as per the initial contract will be completed by the end of the year. We have also signed a contract for 29 more aircraft, the delivery of which is likely to commence from April next year. The Naval version of the LCA is under development and two main engine runs of the first prototype have been carried out. The Naval variant differs from the Air Force version due to its requirement to operate from the deck of the aircraft carrier. The prototype is expected to do the much delayed first flight by the first quarter of 2012. Once successful flight trials are completed, we intend to go ahead with a Limited Series Production (LSP) of the aircraft, in preparation for future inductions.

Further, the induction of Hawk AJT commencing 2013 would facilitate advanced training of our young pilots in developing requisite flying skills over sea prior to graduating to deck based fighter aircraft.

The Mid Life Upgrade of existing Seaking and Kamov helicopters, aimed at upgrading their weapon and sensor package would be undertaken in the XII Plan period. Further, efforts are in hand for acquiring Multirole helicopters, additional Air Early Warning helicopters and utility helicopters. The field evaluation for procurement of 16 Multirole helicopters was concluded recently and the contract negotiations should commence by early 2012.


The full text of the speech is here:

Speech of CNS’ Admiral Nirmal Verma during Navy Day Press Conference – 2011

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Dec 2011 20:12

Ajit.C wrote:Correction Chacko, Karwar has been designed for the very purpose to house the entire western fleet. It has ample protection with Anjadip Island and break waters. It's time Navy starts moving its main assets to Karwar, atleast to justify the crores of money it has spent in constructing it. think currently as per media reports is it houses a tanker, OPV, Survey ship and LST.

Basic inhibition is Karwar as a city has not developed to cope with the influx multi-lingual community, no means of facility for spouses getting job to keep them engaged, no good colleges (these 2 is what keeps everybody at Mumbai) and means of transportation other than Konkan Rail. No airports, nearest being Vasco 3-4 Hours driveI guess.


IIRC, back in 1990's, the objective of INS Kadamba was to decongest Mumbai. Not, base entire fleet there.

Secondly, only the phase I has been completed. Those days INS Vikramaditya etc were not conceived. The base has been inaugurated few months back ( Phase I of Indian Naval base at Karwar Completed. It will take good, 5 - 10years for the base to be operational in Phase I. The base is not yet suitable for piling the assets because it doesn't has protection, required infrastructure logistics etc.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36423
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 03 Dec 2011 20:48

Kartik wrote:
Austin wrote:^^ He is talking about the six new type with AIP ,almost close to $ 2 billion per sub.


I've never really understood what on earth makes these 6 P-75I subs so freaking expensive. Seems ridiculous that each should cost nearly 3-4 times as much as the Scorpenes that are yet to even enter service.

cost overruns:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... ted-01194/ The cost had been subject to varying estimates over the life of those multi-year negotiations, as well as project overruns; the final figure for the first 6 boats is now generally accepted as being about $4 billion.

karan_mc
BRFite
Posts: 701
Joined: 02 Dec 2006 20:53

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 03 Dec 2011 21:33

Karwar will have runway and airbase , Karwar is also important because of kaiga nuclear plant , base and nuke plant requires adequate air safety . vasco base will cover any aerial threat , but i donot think any aircraft can come so far specially PAF fighters .

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21312
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 04 Dec 2011 01:51

I am at a loss in understanding the delay in sub procurement and the astronomical costs of conventional subs given.The Scorpene seems to cost $0.5 B each,while a lease for 10 years of a nuclear Akula-2/3,which is 4 times larger and carries upto 40 weapons,is a mere $1B! At these prices we should lease out at least another 3-4 Akulas,while concentrating upon building our fleet of SSBNs based upon the ATV-1 design.ATV-2 must be large enough to carry a decent number of ICBMs with MIRV warheads. There are several conventional AIP options available,but in the long run,the best AIP system is a nuclear powered sub,as nmany a submariner will tell you.

What are our alternatives for conventional AIP subs then? The Amur/Lada has been touted for long by its builder at being a sub that costs a lot less than a Kilo,but with better capabilities.A Brahmos version has been seen in model form at def. shows for many years.Russia also has its own AIP system and if the Amur is indeed so cheap,then it is worth a serious look at so that it can progressively replace our Kilos.We could also examine restarting building German U-boats,as I've long maintained, to preserve our long experience of operating German U-boats,can take advantage of their successful fuel-cell AIP systems.Israel is to get her 4th Dolphin German U-boat at a huge discount from Germany, a type which has larger tubes for carrying larger N-tipped missilesa as speculated by many.

The information given about China's huge sub production drive and very agressive timetable for the same,demands that we also not lose momentum in naval sub-building.The ATV-1 design ,which is virtually an SSGN,given the type of missiles it will carry for now,should make it possible to derive an SSGN type as well.To save time,we should postpone the "indigenous" conventional version and acquire a proven design with TOT for AIP,while perfecting our own N-sub designs.30 subs by 2020 means that China will be buildign 3 subs a year! A phenomenal production rate,especially in peacetime.6 Yuan AIP subs are meant for Pak,with more to follow.By the time we evaluate what we need for our second line of subs,we will be in the latter half of this decade,and even if any order is placed around 2015,we will get these subs only by 2020,hence the urgent need to acquire what is available for no.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Dec 2011 08:00

Brahmos launch from Teg ( via TR1 )

Video http://video.mail.ru/list/victor_bva/_myvideo/12.html

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Dec 2011 08:19

Philip wrote: The Amur/Lada has been touted for long by its builder at being a sub that costs a lot less than a Kilo,but with better capabilities.A Brahmos version has been seen in model form at def. shows for many years.Russia also has its own AIP system and if the Amur is indeed so cheap,then it is worth a serious look at so that it can progressively replace our Kilos.


Amur Cheaper then Kilo ? No way. In the interview to rian Sevmash director said that more Kilo were being built is because they were cheaper and faster to build. Amur will be an expensive sub with an AIP and VLS brahmos if we go for it.

Another option we can look at is Spanish S-80 a big brother of Scorpene with much greater logistics commonality.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21312
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 04 Dec 2011 08:55

1650+t single hulled Amur more expensive than a 2750-3000t double hulled Kilo? That doesn't ring right.If AIP + Brahmos plugs are attached then definitely yes.Building Kilos in series right now would possibly be more economical as the Amur has yet to be built/sold as yet to foreign customers.The problem with Scorpenes of either French/Spanish versions is that they are simply too damned expensive to continue the line and it would be better if we built more N-subs and acquired a few more Akulas on lease,a definitely more powerful option giving us a better blue-water sub fleet.

Secondly,none of the European designs can acommodate Brahmos being too small,so what's the point,barring more U-boats (U-214s)which are a proven and popular design.Here,the boats can/should be able to carry the Klub and if we examine the Dolphin design too with its two sizes of TTs,the larger ones which are supposedly able to launch Israel's LR cruise missiles with N-warheads,either might suit us quite well for a conventional AIP design.A conventional AIP sub should not cost more than half that of a N-sub of ATV type,in fact about 1/3rd should be a reasonable cost.As most submariners say,the only true AIP is a nuclear sub and if the costs of N-subs are as competitive as a conventional AIP sub,which has lesser blue-water capabilities,what's the point,barring that fact that in the littorals,a smaller conventional AIP sub has been found to be stealthier.The need for at least a dozen mini-subs somewhat similar in size to Iran's home made subs are also required and we could start building our own design for these at least ,getting them built at a private yard for speed.

I keep stressing this approach to also acquire German AIP subs as Pak is already operating French MESMA subs ,plus is acquiring Chinese Yuan class subs with the Swedish Stirling engine system.It will have ahd the advantage of operating two AIP systems and determining which system is better.Our indigenous AIP system will arrive only by 2015 and will take several years of testing before it is suitable to be used in a new design.The Germans are in the process of developing an even better version of their fuel-cell system,with the Russians also developing a newer version too.Unless we leapfrog the time lost,we will be equipped with Scorpenes of which only the last few will have AIP systems,while the majority of Asian navies will have had the advantage of operating them for much longer. The longer the MOD/IN take in determining what exotic tech/capabilities the second line should have,the inferioirty of our sub fleet will grow at a faster pace with respect to Pak,China and the other Asian navies.As they say,it takes a few years to build an army but decades to build a navy.We've lost one decade of sub construction,a "steroid shot" is what is required now,taking a decision in 2012 to acquire new line so that our numbers do not drop alarmingly providing our enemies an opportunity for mischief.The next three years are going to be crucial as our modernisation programmes for the services is just about to take off,while numbers drop simultaneously.

abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 04 Dec 2011 09:38


Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21312
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 04 Dec 2011 11:18

Navy Day today,the anniversary of the famous raod on Karachi in '71,when our little missile boats in the famous words of legendary Adm. Gorshkov,who did much to see the IN grow to maturity,"taught even the Russians a lesson in naval warfare".Navy Day is time to take stock of the health of the In today and the future challenges that it faces and how we are getting prepared to meet them.There will be a host of articles and features on the In this week and to "bully-off",heere's one from a former V.Adm. C-in-C of Eastern Command.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/editoria ... t-navy-150

V.Adm.Arun Kumar Singh,writing in the Deccan Chronicle today,calls for a "home built navy",but bemoans thae fact that only the PSUs are getting the orders,a Lankan boatyard for small craft,when our huge investments by Pipapav (and L&T) are lying idle for want of orders.He also echoes what I've said above for the need for more SSNs,that just one Akula from Russia isn't enough and we need to build 6 at home.He cites the numbers that will appear in the PN and PLAN,but these are rather conservative on the numbers when compared with the figuires given by US and other naval analysts and intel.in actual fact,,as I've givene arlier,the PLAN will acquire 30 new subs by 2020,giving it a fleet of 80+ subs,conventional and nuclear.The PLAN have clearly seen that as they lack carrier task forces,power projection by them will not be able for at least one dacde from now and instead a large number of modern subs,home-built AIP designs armed with with China's very succcessful range of undewater versions of its naval cruise missiles,plus the SSBNs and SSNs that it is aslo cinstructing,will make it avery formidable foe in Asia-Pacific waters.The report earlier in the year that chinese sub was undetected by a US carrier task force indicates the seriousness with which ghe PLAN is taking in massively expanding its numbers and scale of operations.We wil soon have permanent PLAN subs operating out of Gwadar in Pak,logistic facilities perhaps even elsewhere in the IOR,with patrols off our coast and our island A&N waters especially once our ATV-1 is commissioned.

Howevr,when our home built warships and subs are so badly delayed,virtually EVERY programme including now the launch of the IAC-1,one year later,forcing us to keep the 50 years in service Viraat to sail on into the next decade (that too having lost the opportunity to pick up ex-RN Harriers on the cheap,perhaps there may be a dozen+ Sea Harriers still mothballed by the RN and available),how will the IN obtain enough warships and subs on time to fight when it matters? We have bought two tankers from Italy,came on time,the Talwars too are slightly delayed but being built at a rapid rate,had we asked for th first two Scorpenes to have come from France they would've been in service by now,giving us valuable experience of the type.Navies just cannot be built overnight and the total lack of any accountability for the PSU yards makes a mockery of the goal of the IN being a navy "built in India" .

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pragnya » 04 Dec 2011 11:33

info and specs regards KILO and AMUR 1650 here -

http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/navy/navy_10-14.pdf

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 04 Dec 2011 11:45

Philip,

The assertion that PSU's are delaying ships is not correct. When in a DPSU shipyard, the reality is different. Naval ship orders come from MoD very late. So late that they can easily build a civvie ship or two. Naval Design Bureau has a dedicated office in the dockwhere the ship is made and they often change designs (I am not criticising, ships have only become better). Every purchase is handled by a purchase committee and no one wants to buy anything on their own discretion due to corruption allegation. The electronic package is ordered late in order to stem obsolete purchases. Navy is more integrated in the making process.

saptarishi
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 05 May 2007 01:20
Location: ghaziabad
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saptarishi » 04 Dec 2011 12:00

by the way happy navy day to all,

Pratik_S
BRFite
Posts: 325
Joined: 11 Feb 2010 21:19
Location: In the Lion's Den
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratik_S » 04 Dec 2011 12:04


saptarishi
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 05 May 2007 01:20
Location: ghaziabad
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saptarishi » 04 Dec 2011 12:08


goof-up man. maybe navy feels within next few years porkistan will be conquered and there jets will be ours. :D :rotfl:

krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishnan » 04 Dec 2011 12:14

I think its not navy fault . Its TOIlet's fault..

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10117
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 04 Dec 2011 12:21

abhishek_sharma wrote:Navy to get first N-sub by March

:rotfl: :rotfl:
As expected, sub interior paint job wasnt completed by Nov and now its pushed to March.

Btw, isn't the name of the CO for our N-subs a secret? Both the COs for Arihant and Nerpa have been named in this article!!! :shock:

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10117
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 04 Dec 2011 12:23

Not too great news:
Navy hits blue water block

In what may eventually hurt its blue water ambition, many strategic projects of the Indian Navy, ranging from expanding a major naval base on the west coast and manufacturing of many more killer submarines, are nowhere close to realisation.

The latest casualty in the long-list of delay is the indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) whose sea trial has been put off by six months. The 40,000-tonne carrier being constructed at the Cochin Shipyard is now expected to go for the sea trial by the middle of 2012.

The delay happened because its gear boxes and generators had not arrived in time as a result of which the time plan was rescheduled, said Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma.

The Navy ordered 45 carrier-borne fighters, MiG-29K, for the IAC and the Russian-origin “INS Vikramaditya”. The delivery of the first batch of 16 fighters would be completed by March. But in the absence of any carrier, the fighters are now cooling their heels in Goa.

The Navy’s ambitious second phase expansion plan of Karwar naval base is also stuck. The Rs 20,000-crore project has not yet received the Finance Ministry approval after getting the defence ministry nod.

The phase-II envisages constructing more than twenty additional piers so that the base can house more than 40 ships and submarines at any point of time. Both carriers – “INS Vikramaditya” and IAC – will be based at Karwar, which would release pressure on Mumbai. A top Navy officer said the nuclear reactor on-board “INS Arihant” submarine had not yet gone critical and a certificate from Atomic Energy Regulatory Board would be required before the reactor is fired. The Navy chief, however, assured that the boomer would be on patrol duty before 2012 ended.

Another big-time project to have a second assembly line of six conventional submarines (75I) is also not anywhere close to the starting point as the Navy was trying to avoid a “single vendor” situation. In the initial phase, the project took time, because of issues in “defining the technology” and “creating more stealthy features,” which may include air-independent propulsion that allows conventional diesel-electric submarines to stay longer under water.

The first submarine assembly line under construction at Mazgaon dock is already delayed by close to three years. The first Scorpene submarine is now expected only in 2015 rather than the original target date of 2012.

The Naval satellite too is not on the radar, but the responsibility lies primarily with Isro, which encountered a series of failures with its geo-stationary satellite launch vehicle (GSLV).

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8491
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 04 Dec 2011 12:24

does that mean that the Arihant is at such a stage that she can enter service by the end of 2012. Or is the CO such named only for the sea trails and she will have a new CO once commissioned.

WRT the delays in the IAC1, this is the second time a ship to be powered by the LM 2500 ha been delayed for the IN.

saptarishi
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 05 May 2007 01:20
Location: ghaziabad
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saptarishi » 04 Dec 2011 12:31

sum wrote:Not too great news:
Navy hits blue water block

In what may eventually hurt its blue water ambition, many strategic projects of the Indian Navy, ranging from expanding a major naval base on the west coast and manufacturing of many more killer submarines, are nowhere close to realisation.

The latest casualty in the long-list of delay is the indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) whose sea trial has been put off by six months. The 40,000-tonne carrier being constructed at the Cochin Shipyard is now expected to go for the sea trial by the middle of 2012.

The delay happened because its gear boxes and generators had not arrived in time as a result of which the time plan was rescheduled, said Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma.

The Navy ordered 45 carrier-borne fighters, MiG-29K, for the IAC and the Russian-origin “INS Vikramaditya”. The delivery of the first batch of 16 fighters would be completed by March. But in the absence of any carrier, the fighters are now cooling their heels in Goa.

The Navy’s ambitious second phase expansion plan of Karwar naval base is also stuck. The Rs 20,000-crore project has not yet received the Finance Ministry approval after getting the defence ministry nod.

The phase-II envisages constructing more than twenty additional piers so that the base can house more than 40 ships and submarines at any point of time. Both carriers – “INS Vikramaditya” and IAC – will be based at Karwar, which would release pressure on Mumbai. A top Navy officer said the nuclear reactor on-board “INS Arihant” submarine had not yet gone critical and a certificate from Atomic Energy Regulatory Board would be required before the reactor is fired. The Navy chief, however, assured that the boomer would be on patrol duty before 2012 ended.

Another big-time project to have a second assembly line of six conventional submarines (75I) is also not anywhere close to the starting point as the Navy was trying to avoid a “single vendor” situation. In the initial phase, the project took time, because of issues in “defining the technology” and “creating more stealthy features,” which may include air-independent propulsion that allows conventional diesel-electric submarines to stay longer under water.

The first submarine assembly line under construction at Mazgaon dock is already delayed by close to three years. The first Scorpene submarine is now expected only in 2015 rather than the original target date of 2012.

The Naval satellite too is not on the radar, but the responsibility lies primarily with Isro, which encountered a series of failures with its geo-stationary satellite launch vehicle (GSLV).



what navy wants from project 75i is superior capabilities..on one hand it wants stealthy features and superior sensors and modern combat management systems,and superior diving depth and endurance [available in scorpene and u214] and on the other hand it wants a submarine with good weapons carrying ability,like vertical launch tubes for missiles like brahmos {available only in russian subs}.no single sub has all the goodies together.this is the problem.if we integrate all those features it might be damn expensive and further delays are possible,again spoiling our sub plans

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12719
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Dec 2011 13:01

Saptrishi, see the Missile discussion thread, where the one top guys states that Brahmos is scheduled to be launched from Scorpenes, part of the reasons and extra payments to France were the inclusion of Brahmos as part of the Scorpenes.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36423
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 05 Dec 2011 00:34

^^ Reading the Deccan Herald article, you find there is nothing other than unsubstantiated negativism. Highlighting with so many show-stoppers grabbed from all programs, there is no feedback to a reader why or give any reasons to these project status.

Everyone knows how things progress on large scale projects.. there can be hick-ups especially when you have dependencies with external supplies or any supply that does not come in time. There can be hick-ups in project sanctioning as well.

But, there is nothing other than an article the news paper wants to highlight putting some red marks, with zero analysis.

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1119
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 05 Dec 2011 00:47

Been to WNC NDay celebrations......
Felt great to see the Tar armed commandos doing all the cool stuff.

No Viraat or Mig 29K however :cry:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 Dec 2011 10:32

> The delay happened because its gear boxes and generators had not arrived in time

who do we buy this from? afaik the P17 ships and follow ones use Renk gearboxes license made in India by Elecon of pune. one of these had burst into flames due to improper pkging while being transported from plant to mazgaon dock few years ago.
as ADS-1 is using 4xLM2500 engines, I figure they would use same drivetrain ie renk gearboxes.

Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1383
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 05 Dec 2011 11:13

Austin wrote:
Philip wrote: The Amur/Lada has been touted for long by its builder at being a sub that costs a lot less than a Kilo,but with better capabilities.A Brahmos version has been seen in model form at def. shows for many years.Russia also has its own AIP system and if the Amur is indeed so cheap,then it is worth a serious look at so that it can progressively replace our Kilos.


Amur Cheaper then Kilo ? No way. In the interview to rian Sevmash director said that more Kilo were being built is because they were cheaper and faster to build. Amur will be an expensive sub with an AIP and VLS brahmos if we go for it.

Another option we can look at is Spanish S-80 a big brother of Scorpene with much greater logistics commonality.


All said and done Amur XYZW is an untested design, unlike the high;y successful Kilo / 877 EKM / 636 etc. How many Amurs are is service with any navy ?

Russia DOES NOT HAVE an operational non-nuclear AIP system. So do we pay a few US$ billion and wait for several years before they deliver the subs, with plenty of glitches ? Why do we take this risk ?

I know Philip will now say that it was the same with SU 30 and today we have a world class product.

But what about our never ending Vik saga ? When is Nerpa / Akula / #@$%% finally coming to India to operate under the Indian flag ? (I am using lot of my will power and tolerance not to talk about T 90S)

But at the same time we have on option. Nobody has a Brahmos equipped AIP fitted submarine !!!!

K

Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1383
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 05 Dec 2011 11:18



Potential Targets

K


Return to “Military Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests