Indian Naval Discussion

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 22 Dec 2011 19:50

Don't believe stuff with your eyes closed. I do notice some more errors in that report.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 22 Dec 2011 19:52

keshavchandra wrote:Launch of new anti submarine corvette named INS Kadmatt from kolkata..
Ajay Shukla blogging..
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... ithin.html

In October 2011. Old news.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/10/ ... econd.html

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 22 Dec 2011 19:59

keshavchandra wrote:we can sail the newly leased Russian nerpa akula class for just 60 to 80 day a year, which is very low then the standard of 240 day. If it is true the why IN leasing it for 10 long years on 2Bn $. Its because russia is not providing enough fuel to sail long.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GQtxH8B7gEY/T ... /NEWS2.jpg

This article smells like the typical cribbing articles that most Indian defense DDM journalists are wont to deliver. The basic facts like non-availability of certain range missiles, non-availability of certain level of access to systems (in case of Chakra), etc is not something that our navy guys would not have known. If in spite of all the restrictions, they want to spend $2B, it is definitely delivering something they do not have. The 60-80 day restrictions (if true) seems more like US-Russia mandvali to reduce the threat of IN vessels going on deterrence hunting patrols around Diego Garcia for extended period

One sentence seems quite funny "Russia has never flouted MTCR", this journalist has given Russia a character certificate for free - to me this sentence did not make any sense.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2011 13:46

Lovely report about our earlier lease of a "Victor-2" class SSGN! With such accuracy in detail,the report is best suited for the toilet roll holder."Blank tubes" ,"not enough fuel"....indeed! Yes,there will be some confidential agreements with the lease,so that Russia can remain true to MTCR rules.This in the main will pertain to using the platform only with non-nuclear munitions and the fuel in the reactor,reprocessing,etc.,belonging to Russia. However,if we develop a long-range sub-launched cruise missile and wish to test it or operate it aboard the sub,then there should be no problem whatsoever.

As for training purposes,with considerable Russian input acknowledged for the ATV,it stands to reason that there will be some similarity of eqpt. aboard both subs,as well as similar operating procedures for the reactor,etc.The weaponry used aboard both is the same too.Therefore,to say that there would be no training benefit is myopic. The Akula's operational history after it enters service with the IN will tell us whether there is any (absurd) time restriction imposed upon it as well! I feel tht the author of the report has got his knickers in a twist,totally confused, and that the usual mission/voyage time for the N-sub ("60-80" days per patrol),usually a two-three month period,as opposed to 30-45 days for a conventional sub,has been confused with that of the lease period! It indicates the depth of knowledge of the author,who was probably given a hand-out or verbal brief and as usual got his wires crossed.

Just for the record,for US nuclear subs (SSBNs),a typical patrol period is usually about "72 days".THis clearly indicates to us where the 60-80 days figure has come from.It would also be prudish to imagine that the IN will conduct only one patrol per year and keep the sub,acquired at considrable expense "holidaying" at quayside,with the crew lounging in deckchairs,guzzling beer and kebabs for the rest of the time! US SSBNs have also stayed on patrol for even upto 90+ days.Now if we also have like the superpowers "blue and gold" crews,the time on patrol can be doubled per year.The number of crews trained in Russia too on N-subs,indicates that a "B&G" approach is being planned for especially for our SSBNs,so that we will always have at least 1-2 on patrol when our full complement of SSBNs are commissioned.If by 2015 we hve 2-3 SSBNs of the ATV-1 class in the water,with at least two commissioned,we would need 5-6 crews capable of operating on N-subs.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Dec 2011 23:34

Suman Sharma jee should first read books like "Complete Idiot's Guide to Submarines" before she even remotely attempts to write on the topic.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 24 Dec 2011 02:06

Ahh.. the russia rakshaks indulging in ad hominems.. Regardless of irrelevant mistakes, Suman Sharma makes some pretty serious allegations in her report. The accuracy of these allegations is not dented by other mistakes she may have made in the article, which would be identifiable only to pro submariners or war nerds.

1. Not enough fuel to have the Nerpa be on patrol for more than 60 to 80 days an year.
2. The larger diameter tubes not operational (blanked?) as Russians dont want us to launch longer range missiles than the 300km limit imposed by MTCR.

The SSN may well be 'notional' in nature.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Dec 2011 11:40

Why dont you do some of your own research on the two points and tell us why Suman may not accurate on both counts ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Dec 2011 12:19

Indian Mig-29K in factory ( video in russian )

http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/235155/

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 24 Dec 2011 12:56

Suman sharma is Pathetic, Despite all her claims i am yet to see at least one sensible article from her. Her knowledge on defense is absolute zero, so is her ability to understand the technicalities of Defense.

Hence she goes on a easy root which is allegations, joyrides, reproducing the MOD press releases. She is one journalist made her career by bashing DRDO. Rajat pandit is the other.

Shiv Aroor is better than her any day.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 24 Dec 2011 14:14

Look at this. Another Mumbai attack prevented.
Kasargod: Terrorists Pose as Fishermen, Try to Sneak in
http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_dis ... _id=125524
Kasargod, Dec 24: It has been revealed, albeit after lot of delay, that the 17 Pakistanis and four Iranians, who had been trying to set foot in the country by posing themselves as fishermen, were in fact, terrorists. Indian Navy had arrested these persons, who claimed themselves to be fishermen, last year, when they were trying to enter the country through the seashore of Kerala.

The officials found pictures of some terrorist training centres in Pakisthan in their mobile phones. These pictures have been sent to forensic science laboratory in Hyderabad for investigation, said Malayala Manorama, a Malayalam daily.

These men had been arrested in deep sea off Kochi port on December 3 last, when they were found moving in a suspicious manner in a fishing boat. The Indian Navy had at the outset, thought them to be pirates. They had been produced in a court in Ernakulam, which had remanded them to judicial custody.

The investigators have found out that the Iranians too were part of the terrorist outfit, and that the language they arrested people used is not the colloquial language used by the fishermen of Pakisthan. The policemen believe that they had been sent to the country with specific instructions to conduct terrorist activities here.

During the recent application moved by arrested persons before High Court of Kerala for their release, the scenes captured in their mobile phones were found. The union home ministry has ordered investigation by National Investigation Agency into the issue, the policemen told the High Court during the hearing.

I think we are still at peace with Bakistan.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Dec 2011 19:55

I think I have cleared up the confusion of the "60-80 day" remarks by SS.They are the usual,average time on patrol for a nuclear sub,whose reactors as anyone with a modicum of intelligence on the subject will tell you that they do not require "refuelling" after each voyage! One doesn't "open up" a sub's N-reactor every 60-80 days like a car's petrol flap and shove fuel rods down its throat, what?! The nominal lifespan of N-subs' reactors is reportedly approx. 30 years,which also mirrors the usual lifespan of the sub.Such unsubstantiated reportage is "garbage",juvenile delinquency at its worst.

Secondly any student of sub-tech will tell you that larger tubes as those that will come with the Akula,can be used for standard sized munitions with the aid of a liner.We also have reports that "3" teams of submariners have been trained in Russia.Some have spent considerable time there during their training period.This would thus give us a B-G capability that I mentioned earlier ,with one crew resting /on leave,after its long 2-3 month patrol.As for the Arihant,we do ntt know whether separate teams have also been trained at home,most likely,as the N-reactor prototype was shown to the media at K'pakkam,was supposed to help train submariners.Given the large number of SSBNs and SSGNs we are planning to acquire,the sooner .

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 26 Dec 2011 08:21

This official film on the Indian Navy was released on the occasion of the Presidential Fleet Review 2011

[youtube]ZyRVuCKiCDE&feature=context&context=C38f7ffdADOEgsToPDskJfJaf-2mZZtyX-9SlAtyoH[/youtube]

[youtube]WlUaFAEULHs&context=C38f7ffdADOEgsToPDskJfJaf-2mZZtyX-9SlAtyoH[/youtube]

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 Dec 2011 22:12

^^
Just watched both the vids and loved them. IN has certainly mastered the art of shooting good (no awesome

) PR footage. Even more commendable is that they made such an awesme footage without resorting to cheap theatrics and childishness.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 27 Dec 2011 02:49

Elecon to supply gears for India's first aircraft carrier

Gujarat-based industrial gears and material handling equipment maker Elecon Engineering Ltd is likely to deliver a pair of marine gearbox to the public sector shipbuilding major, Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) for construction of India's first indigenous aircraft carrier for the Indian Navy in the first quarter of the next fiscal, a source close to the development informed.

Elecon has joined hands with a German capital goods maker, Renk AG for a technical collaboration to build the marine gears for the Indian Navy. "The order for a pair of marine gears from Cochin Shipyard is likely to be delivered by the March 2012 or latest by the first quarter of the next fiscal. There were certain preconditions to qualify for the order. As a part of it, the company had entered into technical collaboration with German firm, Renk AG," said a senior official from Elecon.

"The components are manufactured at the company's facility in Vallabh Vidyanagar near Anand and then sent to Germany for testing required quality standards," he added.
Elecon was awarded the order in 2006 amounting to around Rs 39 crore for design, manufacture and supply of one set of marine gearbox from Cochin Shipyard Limited to construct India's first indigenous aircraft carrier for the Indian Navy.

Sources at Cochin Shipyard informed that the first phase of the construction of the carrier will be over by December-end that includes completion of the construction till the hull part of the carrier.

"By the end of this month, the first phase of contract would be over and the construction till hull part of the ship will be completed. The construction is largely progressing as per the schedule and comparable with the time taken by any global shipbuilding player," informed a source at Cochin Shipyard, not willing to be quoted.

The ship will be constructed in two phases with delivery to the Indian Navy scheduled in end-2014. CSL commenced steel cutting for the project in April 2005 and achieved the keel laying in February 2009.

The design and construction of the first indigenous aircraft carrier was sanctioned by the government of India in January 2003. The carrier has been designed by the Directorate of Naval Design (DND), only government-run organisation in the world to undertake indigenous design of warships. The carrier, with a a length of 260 meter and maximum breadth of 60 meters, is being constructed using high strength steel developed in-house with the help of DRDO and SAIL.

The ship will be propelled by two shafts, each coupled to two LM-2500 gas turbines developing a total power of 80 megawatt to attain speeds in excess of 28 knots.

The aircraft carrier will have two takeoff runways and a landing strip with three arrester wires. It can carry a maximum of 30 aircraft with an adequate hangarage capacity.

So end-2014 still holds for delivery? Paging Chacko to get us some pics from CSL!

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Dec 2011 04:36

It looks like INS Mumbai does not have Barak-1 installed. You can compare with INS Delhi and INS Mysore--both of which have the Barak-1.

INS Mumbai

INS Delhi

INS Mysore

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 27 Dec 2011 11:47

Nikhil T wrote:sanctioned January 2003...steel cutting April 2005...keel laying in February 2009...delivery scheduled end-2014

Indeed compares well with CdG 1989-2001 (12 years) Cavour 2001-2008 (7 years), QE 2008-2016/2020 (8-12 years!)

srai wrote:It looks like INS Mumbai does not have Barak-1 installed.

No it doesnt, and neither does Vikramaditya or Teg for the time being. This decade 3 Godavaris, 5 Rajputs & 1 Viraat will be de-comm. and six Barak systems available from these ships will in all probability be retrofitted to Mumbai & other ships

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Dec 2011 12:05

the Nimitz class averages 10 yrs dont they? they started many in staggered order to get one every 3-4 but later slowed by funding cuts to getting one every 5 yrs.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 27 Dec 2011 13:20

Yes, I believe they have two A/C building at any point of time, with one commissioning every 5 years, averaging 10 ships over 50 years. Build time is usually 10 years.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 27 Dec 2011 19:24

Teg scheduled for delivery trials between 23 March-16 April, 2012. Tarkash started mooring trials on 25 November. Trikand lags behind even the revised schedule.

Schedule for tests and delivery of Vikramaditya:
First two turbines already tested (steam supplied from pier), last two will be tested by the end of the year. Steam raised in first boiler on 26 December, other 7 to be tested by the end of January. After that mooring tests will continue using onboard steam supply.
The crew will start to man the ship 90 days before trial, end of February.
Electronic equipment tests and fine-tuning have started, scheduled to be finished by mid-March.
De-gaussing scheduled in April, test runs to start on 25 May. First 2-3 weeks scheduled for builders trials, next three and a half months - joint tests of aviation systems and airwing. In October V. should go into dry-dock, November is scheduled for for final shake-down and in early December the ship is expected to be delivered to India.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 27 Dec 2011 23:19

Snaik ji thanks a lot. The moment i see your id on the Mil forum on any thread i know you have exciting updates in that thread. Wish there was a Snaik Bengaluru branch.

One q will the crew be a mix of Russian/Indian sailors or it will be all Russian crew ? Btw, this has been a great learning experience vis-a-vis building carriers for the russians at our expense. They can now gainfully use this experience to build bigger better carriers quicker

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 27 Dec 2011 23:27

suryag wrote:Snaik ji thanks a lot. The moment i see your id on the Mil forum on any thread i know you have exciting updates in that thread. Wish there was a Snaik Bengaluru branch.

One q will the crew be a mix of Russian/Indian sailors or it will be all Russian crew ? Btw, this has been a great learning experience vis-a-vis building carriers for the russians at our expense. They can now gainfully use this experience to build bigger better carriers quicker

Thanks for nice words. The time is short, therefore the crew will be a joint one, with growing number of Indian sailors as they graduate from SPB training faculty.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 28 Dec 2011 05:43

Build Japan-India naval ties

:
:
Supporting these high-level discussions is another set of talks, including a two-plus-two dialogue led jointly by India's foreign and defense secretaries and their Japanese vice minister counterparts, a maritime security dialogue, a comprehensive security dialogue, and military-to-military talks involving regular exchange visits of the chiefs of staff.

To top it off, Japan, India, and the U.S. have initiated a trilateral strategic dialogue, whose first meeting was in Washington last week. Getting the U.S. on board will bolster the convergences of all three partners and boost India-Japan cooperation.
:
:

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 28 Dec 2011 10:24

http://www.thestatesman.net/index.php?o ... 9&catid=40

L&T, Mitsubishi pact

Mumbai: Larsen and Toubro today said its shipbuilding arm L&T Shipbuilding will sign a licensing and technological collaboration agreement with Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI). The agreement with Mitsubishi will provide a broad range of technological support for the construction and design of commercial vessels by L&T Shipbuilding and training of its engineers, the Indian engineering major said in a statement.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 28 Dec 2011 10:55

Times of India print edition quoting defense sources says that IN may go for 6+3 scorpenes(i was suggesting this for long

),the new 3 will come up after building the first 6. and on a different note P-75I may take another decade to roll out.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Dec 2011 14:51

Indian Navy evacuates casuality from Iranian VLCC Oil tanker enroute to China

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Dec 2011 15:49

Russian nuclear sub 'ready' for India transfer

Russia’s Nerpa nuclear submarine has finished sea trials and is now ready to be leased to the Indian navy in the next few days, an engineer said on Wednesday.

“The submarine is now fully ready to carry out its tasks,” a senior executive at the Amur Shipyard, where the submarine was built, told RIA Novosti. “It will be handed over before the end of the year.”

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 28 Dec 2011 16:40

Best new year gift ever !

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 28 Dec 2011 17:07

aniket wrote:Best new year gift ever !

Which year is the question,it was supposed to be handed over in 2008 itself.

vic · Post by **vic** » 28 Dec 2011 21:36

narayana wrote:Times of India print edition quoting defense sources says that IN may go for 6+3 scorpenes(i was suggesting this for long ),the new 3 will come up after building the first 6. and on a different note P-75I may take another decade to roll out.

Good and Bad. Bad because scorpene order will avoid the benefits of lower price due to tender/bidding

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 Dec 2011 21:52

lower price?

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 29 Dec 2011 04:01

Austin wrote:Russian nuclear sub 'ready' for India transfer

Russia’s Nerpa nuclear submarine has finished sea trials and is now ready to be leased to the Indian navy in the next few days, an engineer said on Wednesday.

“The submarine is now fully ready to carry out its tasks,” a senior executive at the Amur Shipyard, where the submarine was built, told RIA Novosti. “It will be handed over before the end of the year.”

Lungi Dance moment

Times of India print edition quoting defense sources says that IN may go for 6+3 scorpenes(i was suggesting this for long ),the new 3 will come up after building the first 6. and on a different note P-75I may take another decade to roll out.

I think IN should focus on building more indigenous Arihant Class type nuclear submarine or a fast attack variant of its type rather than going for additional Scorpene subs.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 29 Dec 2011 05:11

With eye on China & Pak, India to revamp sub fleet

NEW DELHI: Faced with a fast-depleting underwater combat arm even as both China and Pakistan bolster their fleets, India is looking at major rejig of its submarine production plans to ensure its operational readiness does not get further eroded in the coming years.

For starters, the case for equipping the last two of the six French Scorpene submarines being built at Mazagon Docks with the crucial air-independent propulsion systems is being "progressed'', say defence ministry sources.

The six diesel-electric Scorpenes are slated for delivery in the 2015-20 timeframe under the ongoing Rs 23,562-crore 'Project-75', three years behind schedule. AIP in the fifth and sixth vessels, at a cost of an additional Rs 1,000 crore each, will give them a deadlier punch and stealth because they will be able to stay submerged much longer before surfacing to get oxygen to recharge their batteries.

India is likely to go in for three additional Scorpenes after the first six. "While no decision has yet been taken, it makes economic sense since six of them are being built at MDL. The second submarine workshop at MDL will get operational soon,'' said a source.

It will also be operationally expedient since, as was first reported by TOI earlier, the long-delayed follow-on 'Project-75India' to acquire six new-generation stealth submarines will take at least another two to three years to be finalized. It will take another seven years, if not more, after that for the first new submarine to roll out.

'Going in for three more Scorpenes is one way out of the logjam over P-75I, with Navy and MoD yet to agree on the shipyards to execute the project. The French companies will charge hefty amounts for the ToT (transfer of technology) packages for the three more Scorpenes,'' he said.

The P-75I programme may also be expanded to include nine submarines, all equipped with both tube-launched missiles for land-attack capabilities as well as AIP, instead of the six planned for well over Rs 50,000 crore.

Wonder why the obsession with AIP in this day & age instead of Nuclear reactors? Unless they are trying to figure out the pros and cons of AIP since Pakis have already acquired them, but still mind boggling given the required numbers stated by TOI..

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Dec 2011 06:07

narayana wrote:Times of India print edition quoting defense sources says that IN may go for 6+3 scorpenes(i was suggesting this for long ),the new 3 will come up after building the first 6. and on a different note P-75I may take another decade to roll out.

That is good news indeed if its true..I too have been advocating a purchase of an additional 2-3 Scorpenes just to offset the delays in the P-75I program and the inevitable retirement of the Kilo class subs.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Dec 2011 10:09

Logic determines that we extend the Scorpene order...but at what price? Remember how we were shafted initially,and it took a new govt. to review the order and then pay an extra amount for the same,which are years late in delivery.The F-up was almost entirely due to our bumbling babus who negoiated the deal and flawed contract.I would've here preferred a two-sub duel,U-boats vs Scorpenes for the extra subs,at least 4,while the 75-I specs were being drawn up.We have had two+ decades of operating the U-209/1500s and could've compared their capability with that of the Scorpenes.It would've brought down the price too.The U-209/212/214s are very popular boats,being built by SoKo and now even Indonesia going in for them,acquiring SoKo built 214s.Now France are being given the opportunity where they dictate all the terms of contract.

My reservations against the immediate decision to extend the run is because we have NOT operated these subs in out littoral waters.The only nation to do so is Malaysia in the IOR and even here the Malaysian acquisition was not without controversy,suspicion of kickbacks.The French have a very poor track record on this aspect,having paid kickbacks for Paki Agostas and the controversy is still news in both countries.
If making up the numbers was the prime criteria until the specs for a next-gen conventional sub was drawn up,then the Russian navy option of building a few new improved Kilos to replace the oldest which cannot be upgraded to fire Kulb missiles ,would've been the ,most cost-effective choice.Remember that the French Scorpenes do not possess a missile with the Klub's 300km range anti-ship missiles-that too with a terminal supersonic warhead,nor can they launch equivalent of the Klub's two other land attack and anti-sub versions of the missile.Neither are they large enough to accomodate a plug for Brahmos.Therefore,the extra "inferior" Scorpenes,being acquired without the IN evaluating their performance our waters,appears to me to be a poor and expensive decision.

The decision seems to have been made because of the on-going spat between MDL and the private shipyards which have spent enormous sums of money on their infrastructure in the hope of being given large defence orders,especially the second line of subs,which a decade ago,was supposed to be built by L&T.MDL,whose sub-building performance has been below par from U-209 days to its current capability,is behaving like a "dog-in-the-manger",wanting sub building to be restricted to itself only.The other yards,have from previous reports ,had exploratory task with foreign yards for building their subs.Therefore PSU MDL ,scared of losing its monopoly,has put pressure upon the MOD/IN to extend the Scorpene line and will build Scorpenes for a few more years and when we need more subs will say,"we have no orders/orders ending,give us work!",Thus they will again bag the order for the P-75Is.

In addition,these three extra subs will be of little real capability when faced with the massive and relentless PLAN/PN sub acquisitions/production.Examine the ongoing debate in Oz too for the kind of subs needed to meet the PLAN sub challenge,lrger and more capable boats than their Collins class.The Scorpenes are best suited for littoral warfare in the IOR.They cannot perform the tasks required of them in the Indo-China Sea unless permanently based in Vietnamese ports or any other port/base in the ASEAN region.Operating out of our A&N islands is problematic as we do not have huge base repair facilities there,especially for subs.The subs will have to all operate out of Vizag.Therefore ,the IN will probably use the Scorpene's mainly in the Arabian Sea against the PN's earlier model Agostas and use its fleet of Kilos an emerging N-boats against the PLAN.Secondly,Pak's French Agostas,have already started operating with the MESMA AIP,which will appear only on the last batch of Indian Scorpenes! This will give the Agostas,an edge in underwater stealth mode ops,longer submerged periods/patrols,and the capabilities of the two subs using the same French tech and weaponry will be better balanced,almost equal as even weaponry used will be identical (this is an interesting topic for study/debate,the PN's AIP Agostas vs the IN's non-AIP Scorpenes).

To bridge the accelerating gap between the IN and PLAN's sub fleets,the IN needs both numbers and quality.Therefore,acquiring about 4 upgraded Kilo636.3s if the Amur has not been fully perfected) which can be modified to also fire Brahmos,plus possess an AIP system,would be ideal to replace older Kilos.They would cost far less than the Scorpenes.The parallel endeavour is to accelerate the production of indigenous nuclear boats ,both SSBNs and SSGNs based upon the basic design and tech of ATV-1 .Given the aura of secrecy of the same,it is impossible for us to establish the time it takes for an ATV of Arihant class to build,as well as its costs.Acquiring another 1-2 Akula-3s is a must if our production of N-boats cannot exceed one boat every two years.At the current pace of indigenous N-boat production,we can expect a max. of another 4-5 before the decade's end.With the key priority being given to production of SSBNs we would have by then 5+ SSBNs and maybe another indigenous SSGN,which makes acquiring at least two more Akulas (just compare the lease cost of an Akula with that of a new Scorpene) an absolute neccessity. If this strategy is adopted ,by the end of the decade,we would possess at least 8-9 N-boats (5 SSBNs and 3/4 SSGNs),plus 6 Scorpene SSKs,8 Kilos (4 new 636.3s + 4 older upgraded Klub-Kilos),4 upgraded German U-boats in line for retirement/reserves/trg.,with a new class of larger SSG ,Brahmos + AIP aboard.

I only wish that the IN had acquired a few German U-214s right now as follow on to the U-209s,so that we could've evaluated the fuel-cell system against the Scorpene's MESMA.Remember that Pak already has the MESMA and is also getting the Swedish Stirling AIP system via its 6 Chinese Yuan class (?) subs on order.It will be in a position to judge which is the best and fit its future subs with that system.In extending the Scorpene line without evaluation,we are putting all our egges into one expensive basket.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Dec 2011 10:12

Craig Alpert wrote: Wonder why the obsession with AIP in this day & age instead of Nuclear reactors? Unless they are trying to figure out the pros and cons of AIP since Pakis have already acquired them, but still mind boggling given the required numbers stated by TOI..

In shallow waters of the Arabian sea the silent Fuel Cell equipped AIP in a smaller Diesel electirc sub is far quieter and deadlier than a nuclear sub. NUke subes are bigger and greater endurance but are more are detectable when land is closeby.

We need both, this along with the Brahmos Russian guys quote that Bramhos is being integrated with scorpene is pretty good news.

If I am right our Scorpenes are getting DRDO Fuel Cell AIP and not MESMA AIP.

I hope these subs can also fire the Heavyweight Torpedos developed by DRDO.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Dec 2011 10:16

Philip , Extending Scorpene line is the only logical choice keeping in mind to make best use of existing MDL facilities and to speed up induction , the last two subs will also benefit from the experience gathered from building the 6 earlier ones and will be much quicker to build these two.

Cost , logistics and training is also a key factor , a larger number of similar subs eases all the 3 factor and makes it cheaper to operate in longer run , considering the last 2 is suppose to have AIP it will give it longer legs.

If any thing else we should continue building more number of better Scorpenes to take care of depleting sub numbers.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Dec 2011 10:29

VikB wrote:http://www.thestatesman.net/index.php?o ... 9&catid=40
L&T, Mitsubishi pact
Mumbai: Larsen and Toubro today said its shipbuilding arm L&T Shipbuilding will sign a licensing and technological collaboration agreement with Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI). The agreement with Mitsubishi will provide a broad range of technological support for the construction and design of commercial vessels by L&T Shipbuilding and training of its engineers, the Indian engineering major said in a statement.

Soryu the blue dragon for P75I
http://www.geocities.jp/dumbo_seal/soryu014.jpg
The last two of the Scorpens are going to have our own AIP onboard and then the follow on three can be fitted with the same. Regarding the follow on orders for 3 more Scorpene can be considered if the price is ok for us. Or just reject it and go for more P75I's.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 29 Dec 2011 11:06

Craig Alpert wrote:With eye on China & Pak, India to revamp sub fleet

'Going in for three more Scorpenes is one way out of the logjam over P-75I, with Navy and MoD yet to agree on the shipyards to execute the project. The French companies will charge hefty amounts for the ToT (transfer of technology) packages for the three more Scorpenes,'' he said.

What TOT Packages for the three more Scorpenes?
We have already paid for the TOT and the technology remains the same.Why would the French charge HEFTY amounts for a Follow on Deal?
Is this TOT referred to the parts being produced in France, along with the propellers, hatches and front and back bulkheads?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Dec 2011 11:49

Parts of Soryu design and sub-systems are US, transfer depends on US goodwill, would be a good test of Indo-US relationship.

But yes, Soryu & Japanese subs are true ocean going designs. To some extent Australian Collins, goofed up because of RN & shipyard complacence and lethargy. Australia has a lot of major defence programs failing to reach the mark.

German, French, Swedish & Russian DE subs are designed for European/North Sea/Baltic waters and more coastal rather than ocean going.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Dec 2011 13:23

Soryu is the only hope that is known to work with 3 delivered and 4 building, rest are ppt slides. we might have to work out if US will deny some systems (sonar we can supply ourself) or make trouble later after the program is well underway and find alternatives domestically or from usual suspects like Elop, Thales, CAE, Atlas, selex etc. a lot of stuff like HWT, sonar, decoys we should be able to supply ourselves now or source from Arihant. the ASM can be either Harpoon or Klub or both....the load of 30 weapons is SSNish and nice to have. Nirbhay looks like it could be TT launched.

so we could avoid the trap of adding a VLS and trying to fit Brahmos into a platform too small for it

better to stick as close to original Soryu size and shape as possible and let the japanese investment in time and problem solving pay off for us too.