Indian Naval Discussion

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Apr 2012 16:35

SagarAg wrote:CJ Saar..Navy Chief in his speech during the commissioning of INS Chakra said that the submarine remained submerged throughout its voyage from Russia to India.

U r right. I was not at vizag. i had to rely on folks for the info. I am amending it.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 06 Apr 2012 23:29

Vikramaditya Carrier to Start Sea Trials in May

Sea trials of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya are scheduled to start on May 25, Russia’s Sevmash shipyard said.

The vessel will be taken to the White Sea and then to the Barents Sea where it will stay for three to four months.

“After sea trials are complete, we plan to transfer the carrier to India by December 4,” Sevmash said.

At present, the Vikramaditya’s main power generators are being tested and the sleeping and living quartes are being fininshed. Crew training was completed in late March, Sevmash said.

The Vikramaditya was sold to India in 2004 but will be delivered only in 2012, after a refit that lasted eight years and was the subject of an on-going dispute between the two sides over cost.

Intense training programme for the crew of the Indian aircraft carrier

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 07 Apr 2012 02:57

Hi Adityadange

They are not showing the props , look closely it is a plastic/fabric cover over the props.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Apr 2012 08:54

Indian Navy to float RFP for 75 Multirole Helicopters

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Apr 2012 09:56

Per Kuku.Sawf Vikramaditya will complete the trials in India. They are rushing to complete the ship to meet deadline for trials.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 07 Apr 2012 10:14

chackojoseph wrote:Indian Navy to float RFP for 75 Multirole Helicopters

Again import. The Navy's import content is going up. Ten years from now, we'll start to hear, spares not available, torpedoes not available. Stuff not working. Something similar the Army if facing today, if the Navy goes the import way.
They do have option with Dhruv at the moment. They can go for the much more powerful version III. Also let them wait for the LOH to to replace the light helicopters in service, until then let them have Dhruvs. May be it will limitations form what the Navy needs. But have a small number of foreign helicopters say 16 of which tender seems to have been floated but go for indigenous stuff for the rest of the helis.

If the Navy starts to import, the effort put in by all those visionaries in the past will be wasted.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Apr 2012 10:44

Boss,

Without knowing more details about the role and requirements, we should wait before passing a judgement. We still don't know about the state of folding rotor blades on Dhruv either, do we?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Apr 2012 10:50

True,but the IN has alwatys been the "Cinderella" service.If someone in the IN a decade ago had put in the requirement for an indigenous medium 10t class ASW helo,he would've been laughed at! It will optimistically take at least another decade+ before the IN can accelerate indigenous ship and sub building,becuase the PSU yards need major upgrading and modernising.They are preventing orders going to the private players like L&T,Pipapav,etc., who have made large investnents in infrastructure,from getting major orders. Their incompetence is costing the IN dearly,both in delays as well as in risng costs.The only way forard is toreward those yards that are doing well,change the management of those doing poorly and continue limited imports especially for items which we cannot easily build ourselves,or at too expensive a price. As wiht the Tatra controversy,due to no competition,the PSU yards have sfiele day when it comes to escalation,the service has to pay the ultimate cost of the vessel/sub.

A comparison must be made between our PSU yards and foreign yards comparing time and aprox cost of building corvettes,frigates and larger warships and conventional subs too.AS for the naval Dhruv,it was tried and failed to meet IN requirements,one factor was the inability to fit into the ship's hangars and HALs advice to the IN to "cut a hole" in the hangar and let the tail stick out,was looked at with horror!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Apr 2012 11:18

I don't know about IN being a Cindrella service. But it is not Navy's responsibility to look after HAL or any PSU. The PSU is the producer, Navy is the customer. HAL should have seen the upcoming market and got a product ready. It lost out on 4 billion dollars worth of business. In this matter of professionalism, I have no respect for them.

Regarding the matter of the DPSUs trying to choke L&T and Pipavav, what they are doing is just stalling the inevitable ... A customer will only be sympathetic to a point ... The only sustainable way to stay in business is to be competitive ... If DPSUs don't get their act together, the writing is on the wall.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Apr 2012 11:31

IMO, with new DPP coming forth and TATA's and other PVT sector getting into this field, the 'old' meaning of imports is dead. Hopefully, we will see Indian private sector involved in joint bids and offsets.

Still, we need to get angry about imports.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Apr 2012 11:34

Like the Chakra?...Just kidding!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Apr 2012 14:08

No kidding. Chakra is a 'lease' and not an 'import.'

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 07 Apr 2012 14:44

Vikramaditya 6 April 2012
Sea trials in 50 days.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Apr 2012 17:12

SNaik, What do they do in days where its icy and you cannot sail the ship , do they complete some work unfinished business of the ship or does it remain idle waiting for the snow the melt ?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 08 Apr 2012 03:24

Austin wrote:SNaik, What do they do in days where its icy and you cannot sail the ship , do they complete some work unfinished business of the ship or does it remain idle waiting for the snow the melt ?

They are still busy inside, calibrating and testing electronics, testing aviation weapon and fuel systems etc. By the way, they started de-Gaussing today.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Apr 2012 06:34

Details of Chinese Yuan class-20 to be built and latest progress.Comparison needed with IN's conventional fleet.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/04/indige ... nt-in.html

Yuan Class submarine

2006 First Yuan-class submarine estimated to have entered service.
2007 Second and third Yuan-class submarine launched.
2008 Fourth Yuan-class submarine launched.
2009 Second and third Yuan-class submarines enter service. U.S. intelligence reports that Yuan submarines may have air-independent propulsion (AIP) capability.
2010 Fourth Yuan-class submarine enters service, the fourth of which is a potential redesign of previous versions and incorporates Kilo-class features and AIP technology.
2010 China State Shipbuilding Corporation displays AIP technology.
2011 Fifth Yuan submarine delivered, conducting sea trials in Shanghai.
2011 Projected date for serial production.

As of the 2009 DoD report, China had over 60 submarines in service.Series production of the Yuan-class submarine is expected, and some analysts predict that “twenty of the class will be built.”

Key Findings

Particular challenges to accurate predictive assessments on indigenous Chinese military developments include:
* Information denial and/or deception:6 The PRC exercises secrecy over many aspects of its military affairs, and in some instances puts forth false or misleading information. The lack of transparency in the PRC’s military modernization has been a frequent complaint of U.S. defense officials in recent years.

* Underestimation of changes in China’s defense-industrial sector: Once viewed as a bloated and sclerotic industrial sector incapable of adaptation, in the past decade the PRC defense industry has outperformed the expectations of its critics. While it still faces many problems, the Chinese defense industry is far more capable of producing modern weapons platforms than would have been the case in the 1980s or 1990s.

* Difficulty in understanding the PRC national security decision-making process: The decision-making processes of the Chinese government are opaque, particularly in regards to military policy and national security issues. The public emergence and/or testing of some indigenous PRC weapons platforms has also revealed apparent problems of poor bureaucratic coordination, and the possibility of a civil-military divide at the top levels of Chinese policymaking.

* Underestimation of Beijing’s threat perceptions: Many analysts in media, academia, and the government may have failed to fully appreciate the extent to which the Chinese leadership views the United States as a fundamental threat to China’s security. These threat perceptions have been inflamed by a number of events in recent years, to include the 1996 Taiwan Straits Crisis and the accidental 1999 bombing of the PRC Embassy Annex in Belgrade by U.S. aircraft.

* China’s increased investments in science and technology: China’s intensive efforts over the past two decades to stimulate its indigenous capabilities for scientific research and development (R&D)—whether through science education, state funding for research, seeking technology transfers from foreign companies, or industrial espionage—have significantly increased its ability to produce more advanced weapons systems. Furthermore, China’s increasing knowledge of dual-use technologies (i.e., those with both commercial and military applications) in areas such as electronics has also offered significant cross-over benefits to the defense-industrial sector.

* Inadequate capabilities for and/or attention to the exploitation of open-source Chinese language materials: Some of the past flaws in analysis on China’s weapons program could have been partially corrected by increased attention to open-source materials, particularly in regards to academic technical journals and related publications. Increased attention to the messages in authoritative PRC media and political science publications would also have improved understanding of the worldview of the Chinese leadership.

The trends of past decades are no longer a reliable guide to the performance of China’s defense industries. Furthermore, U.S. observers should not take at face value statements from the Chinese government on military policy, as they could either be deceptive, or simply issued by agencies (e.g., the PRC Ministry of Foreign Affairs) that have no real say over military matters. Based on the trends identified in this paper, U.S. analysts and policymakers should expect to see continued advancements in the ability of the PRC to produce modern weapons platforms, and an attendant increase in the operational capabilities of the People’s Liberation Army.
Particular considerations for each of these case studies are:
* The available evidence suggests that the United States did not expect the development of the Yuan-class submarines—much less that the Chinese Navy had potentially acquired and installed AIP systems in its newer submarines.

* Although the United States was keenly aware of Chinese ASAT development, exact details of the January 2007 test may have been unexpected. Additionally, the seeming lack of coordination among PRC government agencies in regards to the launch highlighted gaps in U.S. understanding of the PRC’s decision-making processes for national security issues.

* The United States apparently underestimated the speed of development of the anti-ship ballistic missile, which reportedly reached IOC in December 2010.

* The United States also may have underestimated the speed of development of China’s fifth-generation fighter jet, the J-20, although the true extent of the aircraft’s capabilities remain unclear.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Apr 2012 08:44

IN all set to commission UAV squadron at Uchipuli

The Indian Navy is all set to commission its first Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) squadron on the East Coast at Uchipuli near here {Ramanathapuram} soon.

It is considered a significant step towards strengthening maritime surveillance and reconnaissance in Palk Strait, Gulf of Mannar and Palk Bay off the Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh coast. The commissioning of the UAV squadron near Rameswar-am assumes significance not only due to its close proximity to Sri Lanka but also due to the strategic importance of the region.

It has been christened INAS 344 and it will be operated from INS Parundu, a naval air station. It will be the third UAV squadron of the Navy. Established in 2006, the Indian Navy's first UAV squadron, INAS 342 in Kochi, already performs operational missions as well as training. The 2nd was commissioned at Porbandar in Guajarat in 2011.

Another report

Speaking to The Hindu on Saturday Captain A.B. Bellary, Commanding Officer, INS Parundu said the squadron would comprise four units of two Israeli-built Searcher and Heron UAVs. It would effectively strengthen maritime security and surveillance along the strategic region of the East Coast.

It would have 50 sailors and 12 officers. Two of the 4 aircraft, which were tested and operated at Kochi squadron, had already been brought to INS Parundu. The remaining two aircraft would reach soon.

“It is an important milestone as far as maritime surveillance of the region is concerned. It will be handy for surveillance, mapping, data collection, tracking, analysis and other operations,” says Mr. Bellary.

Commander Vinit Anand, Commanding Officer, INAS 344, said that the UAVs could remain airborne for 8 to 10 hours comfortably. Searcher aircraft could reach higher altitude of over 15000 feet. Heron was medium range and long endurance aircraft and it was a highly sophisticated UAV for high altitude operation fitted with radar, camera and others.

“Right now our focus is on training and improving the operational proficiency of our personnel in operating UAVs. It will be immensely useful for intensive training, coastal mapping, collection of data and others,” he added.

Mr. Bellary said all necessary infrastructure such as hangar, control room, maintenance facilities, building and others had already been established. The sanctioned personnel for UAV squadron had undergone intensive training for operating UAVs and receiving data.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 08 Apr 2012 15:27

Found some pics of INS Sindurakshak and INS Vikramaditya on English Russia, dated 10 Feb 2012

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Apr 2012 16:33

Philip wrote:AS for the naval Dhruv,it was tried and failed to meet IN requirements,one factor was the inability to fit into the ship's hangars and HALs advice to the IN to "cut a hole" in the hangar and let the tail stick out,was looked at with horror!

Along with many many other things, Phillip Saar.

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 09 Apr 2012 02:09

the tail boom for the IN version had a folding function.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Apr 2012 03:39

SNaik,

How thick is the ice around the ship/s? No fear of the expanding ice fracturing a ship's structure?

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 09 Apr 2012 05:13

NRao Sir,
Anyways, I have seen snow fall for the first time in my life this year in London. The white Ice formed around in the above picture looks like a result of snow fall. Snowflakes are generally very soft. I have seen pictures of 2 feet of snow on top cars but that did not carve in the car's top. People told me that snowflakes do not have much weight as density is very low. Never heard snow cracking, fracturing or denting car bodies. So, the snow fall forming ice and then expanding and fracturing the super structure of an Aircraft Carrier looks to be extremely remote.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Apr 2012 05:56

Thanks. 30+ years of experience in bitter cold. The question stands.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 09 Apr 2012 07:58

Ask an Eskomo about snow and ice he has 100+ different names to describe it.
NRao
No ice forming around a vessel will not damage it.
As with most forces the expansion will take the path of least resistance which is forming below the surface so no chance of crushing the hull, Ice usually forms at the surface and as it gets colder gravitates down.
What is more of a concern in subzero conditions is the sea water in the sea bays freezin up ( Sea bay is a compartment underwater, that is open to the water, cooling, fire pumps etc take suction off these sea bays) The ships built for these waters have steam injection nozzles in the sea bay to keep them free of ice.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Apr 2012 08:00

Drishyaman: http://motherboard.vice.com/2011/11/1/mammoths-on-ice-the-magnificent-beauty-of-russian-nuclear-powered-icebreakers

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Apr 2012 08:26

Pratik,Russsia is continuing to invest heavily in new nuclear powered icebreakers to maintain its superiority at keeping its Arctic bases and ports open year round and transiting the Arctic sea.Global warming and the opening up of some passages shortening sea time for vessels using the northern route,has increased the importance of dominating the region's seas.

On another point,the absence of the std. Akula class decoy doors on the Chakra beggar the Q whether she has perhaps other Russian decoys used by our Kilo class,or a desi decoy.At previous expos,we've seen the DRDO's effort at developing a torpedo decoy,an apparent passive decoy.Perhaps those who visited the recent Def-expo would've come across it.

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 09 Apr 2012 08:45

Has been posted on the forum before.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2012 13:04

India to issue RFP for maritime patrol requirements

India is readying requests for proposals for two maritime patrol requirements: the navy's medium-range maritime reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft and the coastguard's medium maritime patrol (MMP) aircraft. Both are likely to be for six aircraft initially, with options for six more, say industry sources, although the initial requirement for the MMP could be as high as nine aircraft.

Unlike the navy's long-range maritime patrol aircraft requirement, which will be filled by the Boeing 737-based P-8I Neptune, the RFI suggests India will not require the MRMR to have anti-submarine warfare capabilities, with the aircraft instead to be focused on the maritime patrol mission and capable of carrying anti-ship missiles. It will replace India's 12 Britten-Norman BN-2 Islanders.

In the 2010 RFI, the navy stated that the MRMR aircraft will require a top speed of 300kt (555km/h) or greater and a patrol speed of 200kt. It will require a full self-protection suite, including radar and laser warning receivers, an active electronically scanned array surface-search radar and a forward looking infrared sensor.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 09 Apr 2012 13:33

indranilroy wrote:I don't know about IN being a Cindrella service. But it is not Navy's responsibility to look after HAL or any PSU. The PSU is the producer, Navy is the customer. HAL should have seen the upcoming market and got a product ready. It lost out on 4 billion dollars worth of business. In this matter of professionalism, I have no respect for them.
...

+1.
After developing the ALH, HAL should have taken the next step and developed a Medium Lift Helicopter. Instead it is spending its limited resources on the low hanging fruit of the Light Utility Helicopter(LUH), even while there is a parallel program to procure the same type of helicopters from foreign vendors which HAL itself will build. I find this situation truly bizarre where first you decide to import and locally build equipment and then paralley spend your limited resources on developing the same. This duplication of efforts is quite criminal. The same situation is repeating for the prop-trainer for the IAF.
I hope that HAL gets zero percent of the work share in this deal, else it will have even no real incentive to develop its own helicopter.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 09 Apr 2012 14:18

abhik wrote:=
After developing the ALH, HAL should have taken the next step and developed a Medium Lift Helicopter. Instead it is spending its limited resources on the low hanging fruit of the Light Utility Helicopter(LUH)

There is already a project going on for Medium Lift Helicopter in HAL. As per reports, the preliminary design phase was also completed. The site livefist had some details. You can search the archives for the same. Also, for LUH, half are to be imported and half would be local LUHs which is more or less a confirmed order, so HAL has a strong case to carry on its development.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Apr 2012 17:35

DCNS' Patrick Boissier: India is such an amazing experience

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opi ... 588293.cms

"To date, MDL has completed fabrication of the hulls of five submarines. The sixth hull shall be completed by the yearend and outfitting works are in progress on the first submarine," he adds, emphasising that "this is a commendable accomplishment." Boissier finds the Indian Navy as well as Indian companies experienced in their respective fields.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 Apr 2012 21:08

INS Vikramaditya to be demagnetized

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 10 Apr 2012 00:43

NRao wrote:SNaik,

How thick is the ice around the ship/s? No fear of the expanding ice fracturing a ship's structure?

NRao,

First of all, the ice in Severodvinsk basin usually is not that thick, 20 cm. There's a lot of warm water being disposed in that area. If you don't have to move around a lot, that's fine.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Apr 2012 02:01

chackojoseph wrote:INS Vikramaditya to be demagnetized

That means its quite ready. Say a year or so.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Apr 2012 03:52

A new "Brahmos-3" version ,a lightweight variant for the Indian navy and services is being pursued,hopefully to be developed within 3-4 years,says AWST Apr.9th issue,quoting Indian sources.The missile will be small and light enough to be carried by IN MIG-29Ks and IAF Jaguars and installed on naval vessels and subs.They will also be offered as replacements for Exocet and harpoon missiles in the intl. market.

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416218193&e=true

Rubin to install AIP systems for two being built 677 class subs.
http://indrus.in/articles/2012/04/09/se ... 15404.html

Baranov said the installation of air-independent power plants aboard Project 677 submarines would strengthen the design bureau’s positions in the market of conventional submarines as it would allow the company not only to offer new craft but also upgrade earlier modifications of Projects 877EKM and 636 submarines in the countries where they are in use.

Project 877E and 877EKM submarines are export modifications of Project 877. Lead Project 877E and 877EKM submarines were delivered to the navies of Poland and India in April, 1986. Over the past years the equipment, systems, weapons and logistics have demonstrated their high reliability enabling the crew to fulfil with confidence their tasks in long patrols.
Rubin is now testing a new power plant.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Apr 2012 12:51

Some updates - Sahyadri is mostly ready for commissioning. Kolkata too is ready, minus Elta 2248 and Barak-8. It will most probably be commissioned like the Brahmaputra class which had Barak-1 refitted later.

The Kolkata has a high hull but low superstructure compared to every other destroyer class in the world, that IMO will result in excellent seakeeping and negligible (even non-existant) top-heaviness that plagues all US cruisers and destroyers. The silouhette is low, only the 2248 mast will be visible on the horizon. From a pure naval architecture perspective, the Kolkata is an award winner hands down.

The sentiment on the deck is that Israelis are going the Russian way. Russia used the Type 1135.6 and Vikramaditya projects to primarily refurbish the dockyards and train manpower, and building our ships had lower priority. The feeling is that Israelis shifted focus from Barak-8 to Iron Dome and other domestic TBMD programs - despite India having fully paid up.

Scorpene - it seems ToT absorbtion by MDL is lesser than ToT absorbed during the T209/1500 project. MDL has shown least enthusiasm in absorbing technology and DCN couldnt care less. Project 75I will most probably be 6 additional Scorpenes from MDL, maybe with some improvements.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2012 13:05

thats worrying news because I dont think barak8 has even entered a proper test cycle yet and the status of MF-STAR in terms of mission readiness is unknown.

what fallback options do we have at this stage - to me it seems only few choice given the structure and role of delhi.
(1) A50 sylver + Aster30 + Aster15 + EMPAR - franco italian ships
(2) as above but with Sampson. - british ships
(3) Mk41VLS with SM2 and APAR - dutch/german ships

it could years before the system is ready from israel unless there is progress we dont know about.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Apr 2012 13:20

Barak-8 is a joint DRDO+IAI venture. The underlying technologies are mature and proven elsewhere by both parties. Its a case of delay, chances of failure are minimal.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2012 13:42

It is not surprising Israel would be investing manpower in TBMD and Iron Dome as right now the threat of war seems very real and these programs would be more useful to them in immediate future then Barak-8

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 10 Apr 2012 14:07

tsarkar wrote:Barak-8 is a joint DRDO+IAI venture. The underlying technologies are mature and proven elsewhere by both parties. Its a case of delay, chances of failure are minimal.

MF-STAR is by no means a mature technology for Israel. You can't just take a single face land-based APAR demonstrator, multiply it by 4, stick it on top of the shipmast and hope that it will work fine. Perfect example of is the Russian Furke radar, which works nice in land-based Pantsyr SAM, but is a total failure as target acquisition radar for naval Redut SAM.