Indian Naval Discussion

Bolasani
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 22 Sep 2005 10:43
Location: Hyderabad
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Bolasani » 18 Apr 2012 17:01

Transition to Truimph - History of the Indian Navy 1965-1975
By - GM Hiranandani Vice Admiral (Retd)

Nausena.nic.in

Just ran across this while twiddling thumbs. A simple search of the boards did not find this. Hopefully this is not a duplicate post.
Still reading it, but touches construction of the Nilgiri class at MDL and the 1965 war.

SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 524
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 18 Apr 2012 20:30

An update to the end-of-March explosion on Vikramaditya. Exaust pipe of one of the boilers has been damaged. The boiler and turbocharger itself are operational. The repair process is desribed as not complicated but meticulous, will start as soon as the producer of boilers will deliver new tubing compensators to Sevmash. Probably the sea trials will be started running on just 7 boilers. We'll see.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21046
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 19 Apr 2012 09:33

With the unqualified success of A-V,and the comments about "mastering underwater launch by an admiral",the stage is now set for tweaking the A-V into an operational ICBM for our SSBMs.A-Vs length has been given as 17m.The diameter of the ATV-1 has been given as "15m",and there is virtually no discernible "hump" ,or "turtleback" on ATV-1,which indicates that a larger missile can be carrried by fitting a larger silo to the ATV.A "12,000t" version is hinted at in the future too.From the pics of the A-V-and we must await official confirmation of its dimensions,the diameter appears to be between 2-2.4m,easily carried by the ATV series of SSBMs and perhaps can even fit into ATV-1s existing silos if the length is a trifle shorter.Being solid-fuelled,A-V can very easily be now refined into becoming our first true sub-launched ICBM with a range of not less than 5000km.If it can be extended to about 8000km,with MIRVs,then we would've truly arrived a full-fledged N-power.With at least 3 warheads per missile along with several decoys too,an SSBM carrying 12-16 A-Vs would give us upto 50 warheads.What we now need to determine is how many SSBMs we need todeter the Chinese,the Pakis and their cronies like NoKo and the Saudis (Paki godfather),who already possess Chinese BMs and most probably Paki N-weapons in the basement.

Though there is little requirement for a missile that can reach the US or the farthest parts of Western Europe for example,as we have no issues with the democracies,a longer ranged sub-launched ICBM would allow our SSBMs a far wider area of ocean in which to conceal themselves,making it even greater for the PRC to detect and track,thus dramatically increasing the survivability of the most important leg of our strategic deterrent.Our main rival for the next century and beyond is China.China shares nothingwith any nation on an equal footing,it wants only servitude from the nations of Asia.India thus cannot allow our guard to drop even for a a moment and we have to show the Chinese that militarily,we are their equal,if not technologically in certain areas their superior.There is a lot of catching up to do,but the success of the A-V launch is a true "game-changer" as many of our scientists and defence analysts have said.On with the sub-launched A-V!

SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 524
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 19 Apr 2012 14:53

Big V heading for de-Gaussing. Best ever side view I've seen so far.
Image
Image

Roperia
BRFite
Posts: 778
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Roperia » 19 Apr 2012 20:25

INS Vikramaditya air wing to be tested in June

The sea trial of INS Vikramaditya (formerly the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov), which is being modernised in Severodvinsk, is scheduled to start in late May and will include MiG-29K naval fighter landing tests and checks of the aircraft systems. During the first three weeks, specialists will focus primarily on running trials, while the aircraft systems will be tested in June and July.

It is planned to check all of INS Vikramaditya’s aircraft systems, which will include landing tests of the MiG-29K fighters and Ka-31 and Ka-27 naval helicopters on the flight deck. In April, aviation fuel systems will be washed, and aircraft fuel will be delivered to the ship. Right now, radar stations and navigation systems are being set up, non-slip coating is being applied to the deck, and the bow and stern aircraft lifts are being tested. Representatives of Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) MiG have been invited to observe test flights on the air carrier.

Russia’s Sevmash shipbuilding company is getting ready to start INS Vikramaditya sea trials in the White Sea and Barents Sea on 25 May.

...

Anoop. A.
BRFite
Posts: 102
Joined: 22 Nov 2009 15:12
Location: City of the snake with 1000 heads

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anoop. A. » 20 Apr 2012 02:09

Some time back, There was a news posted here about an explosion aboard INS Vikramaditya. Any further details about that???

SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 524
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 20 Apr 2012 02:38

Anoop. A. wrote:Some time back, There was a news posted here about an explosion aboard INS Vikramaditya. Any further details about that???

Yes. If you would look three posts above. ;)
It was boiler No.4. The exhaust pipe was dislocated and tubing compensator damaged, some control equipment dislodged as well. Most probable cause - exaust pipe wasn't properly ventilated prior to engaging the boiler, causing explosion of fuel condensate.

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1286
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 21 Apr 2012 03:05


Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1286
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 21 Apr 2012 03:06

Navy to induct 45 ships in next 10-12 years

Expanding its blue water ambitions, the Indian Navy plans to acquire 45 new ships including four landing platform docks (LPD) to deliver armoured vehicles and troops on the shore and six new submarines in the next 10-12 years.

This is in addition to 50 ships, which are already on order and undergoing production in shipyards all over the world. They include Russian origin aircraft carrier “INS Vikramaditya”, to be commissioned on December 4, and three Teg-class stealth frigates, the first of which will be inducted in the Navy on April 27.

To fast pace the delivery schedules, Navy has roped in private shipyards and adopted modular construction methods so that its warship inventory grows up in a relatively short span of time, said Vice-Admiral Ganesh Mahadevan, chief of materials in the Navy.

The naval acquisition road map comes to the limelight days after a section of the Parliamentarians raised queries on India’s military preparedness.

The 45 new ships planned include eight mine counter vessels, four LPDs, one floating dry dock, 16 coastal anti-submarine vessels, one survey training vessel, two deep submersible vessels, six diesel electric submarine with air independent propulsion technology and seven new frigates, reliable sources told Deccan Herald.

The Rs 45,000-crore programme to construct seven stealth frigates at Mazgaon dock in Mumbai and Garden Reach in Kolkata will embrace modular construction technology to cut down the construction time.

Private participation

Private shipyards will be involved to manufacture the LPDs in a Rs 16,000-crore project.

The Navy plans to award two LPDs to a private shipyard while the remaining two would be made at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 21 Apr 2012 03:55

Nikhil T wrote:Navy to induct 45 ships in next 10-12 years

Expanding its blue water ambitions, the Indian Navy plans to acquire 45 new ships including four landing platform docks (LPD) to deliver armoured vehicles and troops on the shore and six new submarines in the next 10-12 years.

This is in addition to 50 ships, which are already on order and undergoing production in shipyards all over the world. They include Russian origin aircraft carrier “INS Vikramaditya”, to be commissioned on December 4, and three Teg-class stealth frigates, the first of which will be inducted in the Navy on April 27.

...

The 45 new ships planned include eight mine counter vessels, four LPDs, one floating dry dock, 16 coastal anti-submarine vessels, one survey training vessel, two deep submersible vessels, six diesel electric submarine with air independent propulsion technology and seven new frigates, reliable sources told Deccan Herald.

...


This is the first time I am hearing about the 16 x "Coastal" anti-submarine vessels. These could be the follow on to P-28 ASW corvettes but smaller in the 1,000t - 1,500t class. As the 45-potential order list does not include P-28A, it can be assumed that the IN has decided to go with smaller and cheaper ASW vessels. But it could also be the 16 x ASW vessels are in fact the follow-on to the P-28 series (2,500t class).

In any case, this will be huge boost to the IN's surface anti-submarine capability by 2025:
  • 20 x ASW Corvettes -> 4 x P-28, 16 x coastal ASW vessels
  • 19 x FFG -> 6 x Kirvak.III, 10 x P-17/A, 3 x P-16A
  • 10 x DDG -> 10 x P-15/A/B
Total ASW capable surface ships (2025): 49

D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 21 Apr 2012 04:21

These are the "Janta" class follow ons to the Abhay class corvettes.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 21 Apr 2012 04:37

D Roy wrote:These are the "Janta" class follow ons to the Abhay class corvettes.


Ah, Thanks!

Found these in the old thread from last year regarding the "Janta" class:

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION (RFI) FOR CONSTRUCTION OF ANTI SUBMARINE WARFARE SHALLOW WATER CRAFTS FOR INDIAN NAVY

1. The Ministry of Defence, Government of India, intends to acquire Anti Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft (ASW SWCs) class of ships under ‘Buy Indian’ category, as amplified in Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2011. Information is sought from prospective shipbuilders for design and construction of the ships, to be built in India. Possibility exists of splitting the order between two Shipyards. The ships shall have Diesel propulsion with Water Jets. ............................

Appendix A
OUTLINE SPECIFICATIONS FOR ASW SWCs CLASS OF SHIPS

1. Role of the Ship
The role of ASW Shallow Water Crafts is as follows: -
(a) Anti-submarine warfare operations in coastal waters.
(b) Combating the threat posed by submarines.
(c) Undertaking low intensity maritime operations.
(d) Laying of mines.
2. Area of Operation :- To operate within 200 NM of the base port.

3. Other Features

(a) Dimensions:

(a) Draught – Not exceeding 2.7m in fully laden condition without Sonar Dome
(b) Displacement – Not Exceeding 650 Tons ( Shipyard may propose tonnage as per their design also)
(c) All other dimensions and displacement as per design.

(b) Speed & Endurance

(a) Speed: Top Speed Not Less than 25 Knots in full load condition at ambient temperature.
(b) Endurance : 1800 NM at 14 Knots

(c) Weapons
(a) ASW Combat Suite
(i) Hull Mounted Sonar (HMS)
(ii) 2x Indigenous Torpedo Launcher (Three light weight torpedo tubes per launcher in pyramid configuration)
(iii) 1x Indigenous Rocket Launcher
(iv) Mine Laying Rails for Light weight mines
(v) Low Freq Variable Depth Sonar(LFVDS)
(b) Two 12.7 mm Stabilised Remote Control Gun
....................

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4505
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 21 Apr 2012 04:44

Navy could retire INS Viraat,

It has been in service for over 50 years and now INS Viraat, the lone aircraft carrier operated by the Indian Navy, could be on its last legs with the Navy undertaking a detailed survey to determine when to decommission the warship.

Sources said the internal hull of the warship, which was first commissioned in the British Navy in 1959, is giving way from the wear and tear of over half a century of sailing. A detailed project is now being carried out to determine the residual service of the carrier. The Navy, which has already stretched the service life of the warship beyond expectation, is not too keen to keep it going on for much longer.
...
...
The officer also said work on the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), which will be christened as the INS Vikraant, is also progressing and the warship would be able to operate both MiG 29K and the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

Initial difficulties in producing an arrester wire that would cater for both fighters — which are of different weight categories — have been sorted out with Russian assistance, Mahadevan said. He elaborated that work on the second indigenous carrier has not started as the Navy is still firming up its specifications. He hinted that the Navy would want a greater variety of aircraft to operate from the second ship, including heavier surveillance aircraft.
...

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Apr 2012 08:39

its almost certain ADS2 will be in 55,000t weight category - same as varyag and CVF size, and that we will probably take up rafale-M and E2-D with catapult system...probably even EM cats if things go well.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 21 Apr 2012 10:44

srai wrote:
D Roy wrote:These are the "Janta" class...The ships shall have Diesel propulsion with Water Jets...To operate within 200 NM of the base port...[b](c) Weapons (a) ASW Combat Suite (i) Hull Mounted Sonar (HMS) (ii) 2x Indigenous Torpedo Launcher (Three light weight torpedo tubes per launcher in pyramid configuration) (iii) 1x Indigenous Rocket Launcher (v) Low Freq Variable Depth Sonar(LFVDS)


I’m not sure why members are calling it Janta class.

Let us understand DE submarines like Pakistani Agosta and Chinese EKM877 copies

They travel 10 knots on surface, 20 knots submerged just under the surface using diesel engines and snorkel, and 4-6 knots truly submerged using batteries. Range in the last mode is barely 300-500 nm before batteries need to be recharged.

So a DE submarine sprints and ambushes. In 1971, the PNS Hangor had multiple ambush zones on the West Coast of India. She was first off Bombay, but when the main fleet departed, she moved off Gujarat coast with the (correct) assumption that the Petya and Osa boats would need refueling there, where she encountered Kukhri and Kirpan.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/Trans2Tr ... ps_enc.htm
The following four signals recovered from the GHAZI have been reproduced in Admiral Krishnan's book:

DTG 221720 NOV 71
FM : COMSUBS
TO :SUBRON-5
INFO : PAK NAVY
-----------------------------------------------------
FOLLOWING AREAS OCCUPIED.
1. PAPA ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR.
2. PAPA FIVE, SIX, SEVEN, EIGHT.
3. BRAVO ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE, SIX
4. MIKE.
--------------------------------------------------------
Bravo Zones were seas around Bombay. Mike Madras Victor Vizag

It is very difficult for a DE submarine to chase a fleet at high seas because it simply cannot keep up. During WW2, German U Boats set up ambush zones in the Atlantic guided by HQ. However, they simply didn’t have the endurance to chase convoys.

Now the Janta class with patrol exactly these areas where submarine ambushes are expected.

1. Janta class is Water Jet propelled, so will have high speeds of 35 knots & short reaction time and will be able to sprint to areas wherever enemy submarines have been detected. Same water jets powering TFTA LCS.

2. It will have greater endurance than ASW helicopters that need to depart after X hours and MPA that need to depart after XX hours.

3. Janta class will be low cost, enabling greater numbers to be built.

4. A submarine commander will pause before firing an expensive DM2A4 torpedo at a cheap Janta class.

5. Janta class with its high speed can maintain a safe separation distance from any enemy torpedo

6. Full sensor suite

7. Even the latest ASW HWT at 50 knots gives an enemy submarine enough time to detect and launch countermeasures to seduce torpedoes away. Janta class will race in at 35 knots atop the enemy submarine and blast it with RPK-8 system that cannot be jammed. Or it can launch TAL at close ranges giving enemy submarine lesser time to react.

Janta class, like the Gurkha and his Kukhri, packs a lot of punch in a small package. Call it Gurkha class.

SagarAg
BRFite
Posts: 1164
Joined: 12 May 2011 15:51

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SagarAg » 21 Apr 2012 12:05

INS Vikramaditya update:
http://www.sevmash.ru/eng/news/419-0904
Monday, 09 April 2012 14:39
Yet another stage began with repair and modernization of the aircraft carrier “Vikramaditya”. Over the last weekend the ship was unmoored from the outfitting quay wall and moved to the wiping station.

During 20 days they will be measuring the magnetic field of the aircraft. This procedure is essential for all naval ships and for their protection against mine-and-torpedo weapons reacting to a ship's magnetic field. “The most important thing for us is that the aircraft carrier has become entirely self-contained: all internal systems and mechanisms, the ship’s propulsion system, galley, water supply system are operable,” reports the commissioning manager Igor Leonov, “the ship’s board has been uploaded with the foodstuffs for 30 days, there is the Russian crew constantly present on the aircraft carrier”. The movement operation itself, according to Igor Leonov, passed with success although not without some difficulties – the shipyard’s water area is still covered with ice.
The works on the aircraft carrier are going on day and night. At the same time there are up to 1100 workers on the ship, who get there by tugs. The next important stage is a heeling test: the ship’s board will be uploaded with the weights of 360 tons, which are to be transferred from one side to another at a certain time. The ship’s heel is used for calculation of its center of gravity, what is very important for estimation of stability. After all arrangements on the shipyard’s water area the aircraft carrier will sail to sea for sea trials. The departure is scheduled for the 25th of May. :)

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby svinayak » 21 Apr 2012 13:55

m

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21046
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 21 Apr 2012 14:41

Folks might remember my plea for the Janata class ASWs a long time ago-replacements for the Pauk.If they can also possess a flight deck (no hangar),which can operate a small ASW helo or UAV,triangulation of the sub-surface contact can be better achieved.TSarkar has well described the kind of sensors and weaponry that the class could carry,and the absence of a BPDMS system like Barak would allow more dedicated ASW weaponry aboard.If like the Pauk it carries a stern-mounted modular TAS/VDS,coupled with high speed (35-40kts,remember that the Pauks have the same hulls the Tarantula missile boats),these craft could be extremely valuable in sanitising our main naval bases and key ports allowing the larger surface vessels to concentrate upon command of the high seas.If our new minesweepers,which will possess excellent sonars too,are also kitted out/can be kitted out for emergency use as ASW vessels,we would have more than 24 coastal ASW assets apart from the larger frigates etc.

PS:In fact if the same hull is also used to build Coast Guard cutters,these craft too could be roped in during a crisis for ASW duties (with fitted for but not installed,lightweight ASW TTs,etc.,) just as our OPVs have other capabilities like launching Dhanush.

Kailash
BRFite
Posts: 1062
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 02:32

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kailash » 21 Apr 2012 19:06


Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Apr 2012 20:46

maybe a P28 or similar ship could provide a helicopter or two to command and lead a swarm of Janata class ships. a MCM ship in the swarm might also help.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16829
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Apr 2012 21:00

India should park a floating base just outside the EZ of TSP. Even a 8 week period is good enough.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Apr 2012 00:01

Some pictures and details on Talwar/Teg on this blog

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-163.html

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 22 Apr 2012 11:36

Singha, Philip, I speculate the Janata class will be very similar to the GRSE WJFAC & GSL XFPV, with an increase in displacement, and maybe a fourth diesel and waterjet to account for the increased weight. And it can be built rapidly like the IN and ICG FPVs.

OT - the blue car in Austin's link is a Logan, that is a best seller from Renault in Russia and Eastern Europe and whose manufacture is outsourced to Mahindra.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3473
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 22 Apr 2012 20:39

New INS Vikrant - April 2012 pics:

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/4590 ... geview.jpg

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/5245 ... 55356f.jpg

The construction has stopped since the hull was floated out :((
Last edited by Gerard on 23 Apr 2012 02:01, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed inlining

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 23 Apr 2012 02:59

Aditya G wrote:New INS Vikrant - April 2012 pics:

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/4590 ... geview.jpg

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/5245 ... 55356f.jpg

The construction has stopped since the hull was floated out :((


The ship is supposed to be built in a modular manner. This means there are other parts being built separately and will be integrated to the main when ready. Also, there must be tons of work going on internally - cabling, pipes, engine installation, fittings, etc.

Bolasani
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 22 Sep 2005 10:43
Location: Hyderabad
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Bolasani » 23 Apr 2012 08:52

Galleries of pictures from Rediff on two exercises being conducted by Indian navy

Tropex-2012 (theatre-level readiness and operational exercise)

Indo-US naval exercise -Malabar

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 23 Apr 2012 12:14

Very detailed videos on the Krivak.III class (i.e. Talwar class) [in Russian]. It shows both external and internal of the ship. For each weapon type, it shows where it's located, how it's stored internally, its guidance radar, its control stations and live firings.



Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Apr 2012 14:37

India-Japan defence talks are on and in future JVs in certain areas...

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/04/i ... on-in.html

IN is evaluating the Shin Meiwa US-2 long range 4-engine seaplane for military logistical tasks.

I say its the ideal plane for our island territories and coast guard's LR surveillance needs. even MARCOS units could add this as a long range strike asset like paras got C130J.....I see the makings of a good alistair mclean novel here, in the island chains around the south china sea...."south north by java head" or "to the shores of bandar seri bagawan" :)
Last edited by Singha on 23 Apr 2012 16:04, edited 1 time in total.

D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 23 Apr 2012 15:43

This is an interesting buy for more than one reason.

Although I do hope that India considers the A-40 Albatross as well. Given that we are pretty much preparing for peer-peer warfare, the A-40 would be in line with all the other badass developments we are seeing or will be seeing shortly.

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vina » 23 Apr 2012 18:21

During WW2, German U Boats set up ambush zones in the Atlantic guided by HQ. However, they simply didn’t have the endurance to chase convoys


Once the U Boats were out in the Atlantic, esp out of the range of shore based aircraft, int he "no coverage" zone that existed for the bulk of the war, the U-Boats ran on the surface , could outrun the convoys, regroup and re attack using wolf pack tactics.

It is when the final closure of the mid atlantic gap with carrier borne aircraft that the U-Boats were driven underwater fully and the U boat campaign became unviable .

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 23 Apr 2012 23:19

vina wrote:
During WW2, German U Boats set up ambush zones in the Atlantic guided by HQ. However, they simply didn’t have the endurance to chase convoys
Once the U Boats were out in the Atlantic, esp out of the range of shore based aircraft, int he "no coverage" zone that existed for the bulk of the war, the U-Boats ran on the surface , could outrun the convoys, regroup and re attack using wolf pack tactics. It is when the final closure of the mid atlantic gap with carrier borne aircraft that the U-Boats were driven underwater fully and the U boat campaign became unviable .
There were two types of convoys in the Atlantic in WW2,

Slow Convoys travelled at 8 knots and could possibly be overhauled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SC_convoys
As these were slow convoys, composed of ships making 8 knots or less, they were correspondingly more vulnerable, and witnessed a disproportionate number of attacks.

Fast Convoys travelled at faster speeds and couldnt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HX_convoys

More often, U Boats ambushed convoys like dacoits of Sholay ambushed trains as they came one after the other -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_SC_130
Ranged against them were 25 U-boats in three patrol lines, which had been organized by U-boat Command BdU on 15 May. This was in response to intelligence from B-Dienst which reported a westbound convoy (ONS 7) and two eastbound (HX 238 and SC 130) approaching the Air Gap. One group, Iller, of six newly arrived boats was just arriving, while two other groups, Donau I and Donau II, were formed from boats already on station, plus reinforcements.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_SC_7
On the night of 18th/19th five boats made a concerted attack...Meanwhile, the arrival of Convoy HX-79 in the vicinity had diverted the U-boats and they went on to sink 12 ships from HX-79 that night.


In retrospect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy#Analysis
The success of convoys as an anti-submarine tactic during the world wars can be ascribed to several reasons related to u-boat capabilities, the size of the ocean and convoy escorts. In practice, Type VII and Type IX U-boats were limited in their capabilities. Submerged speed and endurance was limited and not suited for overhauling many ships. Even a surfaced U-boat could take several hours to gain an attack position. Torpedo capacity was also restricted to around fourteen (Type VII) or 24 (Type IX), thus limiting the number of attacks that could be made, particularly when multiple firings were necessary for a single target. There was a real problem for the U-boats and their adversaries in finding each other; with a tiny proportion of the ocean in sight, without intelligence or radar, warships and even aircraft would be fortunate in coming across a submarine. The Royal Navy and later the United States Navy each took time to learn this lesson. Conversely, a U-boat's radius of vision was even smaller and had to be supplemented by regular long-range reconnaissance flights.


The pioneer of ASW tactics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic_John_Walker and a practitioner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Mac ... vy_officer)#SOE.28Senior_Officer_Escort.29

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5346
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 24 Apr 2012 01:37

This news item relates to the P-8A Poseidon and not the P-8I Neptune, but I'm posting it here to get people aware of the Increment 2 upgrades that Boeing and the USN have planned for the P-8. the IN will be very interested in the ASW capability increase through Increment 2 upgrades. And also note the mention of the MQ-4 being able to seamlessly communicate with the P-8- it explains the IN's interest in this unmanned surveillance platform.

Flight Global article

The US Navy is set to start operational testing of the Boeing P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft this summer.

"What we're looking forward to this year, really, is our initial operational test and evaluation of the programme," says Capt Aaron Rondeau, the USN's Poseidon programme manager.

Those formal operational tests will start this summer and should take about six months, but could run through to the end of the year. There have already been some operational evaluation activities that have been completed, thanks to the integration of the developmental and operational test teams. Should that all go according to plan, the P-8 will be declared operational in the third quarter of 2013.

The Increment 1 capability on the P-8 will be an improved version of what is on the USN's upgraded Lockheed Martin P-3 Orion, which the Poseidon will replace. However, there are a host of improvements that are planed for the new Boeing 737-based jet.

The first major upgrade will be Increment 2, but that effort has been split into two parts, says Boeing's P-8 business development director David Robinson. The incremental upgrade is being developed with Australian participation.

The first part of that effort is to equip the aircraft with a new Multi-static Active Coherent (MAC) system, which has been accelerated to be fielded in fiscal year 2014. That will enable the fast, high-flying aircraft to search for enemy submarines over a much larger area with a network of active and passive sonar buoys.


"The major focus is on the anti-submarine warfare," Robinson says. "MAC is a major portion of Increment 2."

The other part of the Increment 2 upgrade includes the Automatic Identification System, which would allow the P-8 to read ships' transponders, plus a new computer architecture to rapidly add new capabilities, a new tactical operations centre (TOC), and a high-altitude anti-submarine warfare (ASW) system.

The high-altitude ASW system, which is a collection of sonar buoys, would enable the P-8 to take a closer look at "areas of interest" generated by the MAC, Robinson says. "You'd be able do both [MAC and high-altitude ASW] at the same time," he says.

The TOC would allow a Northrop Grumman MQ-4 Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) unmanned air system aircraft to coordinate seamlessly with the P-8, and would allow the Poseidon to better manage its various ASW activities and sensors. Those capabilities should become operational around FY2015.


A follow-on Increment 3 capability has not yet been fully defined, but will include the ability to have some level of control of the BAMS aircraft, Rondeau says. It would also have further architecture improvements to allow for roll-on/roll-off capabilities that might enable the jet to take over certain intelligence-gathering missions currently assigned to the USN's Lockheed EP-3 Aries, he adds. It would also have a new high-altitude ASW weapon and a new "digital, net-ready" anti-surface ship weapon that would improve upon on the existing Harpoon missile.

It might also incorporate J-series inertially-guided satellite-correct weapons and the advanced airborne sensor littoral surveillance radar.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 24 Apr 2012 06:24

^^^
MQ-4C BAMS UAS
(Broad Area Maritime Surveillance Unmanned Aircraft System)

BAMS Cutaway

BAMS Datasheet

AbhiJ
BRFite
Posts: 494
Joined: 29 Sep 2010 17:33
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby AbhiJ » 25 Apr 2012 15:42

The Supreme Court on Monday refused to stay a Bombay high court order permitting a Cyprus merchant vessel MW Nordlake, which allegedly rammed into and sank a Rs 1,058-crore Indian Navy Ship, to leave Indian shores after furnishing a bank guarantee of Rs 46.87 crore.

The Nilgiri class frigate, INS Vindhyagiri, was hit by the container-laden Cyprus flag flying MV Nordlake near Sunk Rock Lighthouse off Mumbai causing severe damage to the warship's structural integrity leading to its total loss.


Jaising protested against the negligence charge and explained that the date of incident happened to be the Navy Day when all naval ships comprising officers and their families were out in the sea for a "parade".

Commissioned on July 8, 1981, into the Navy, INS Vindhyagiri was primarily used for anti-submarine operations, ocean patrol and naval gunfire support. The Union government accused MV Nordlake of "recklessly altering its course" to collide with the warship.


The government had filed an admiralty suit against the ship MV Nordlake and its owner MS Nordlake, a company incorporated in Germany, in the Bombay HC and raised a claim for Rs 1058.54 crore.


http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... v-nordlake

SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 524
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 26 Apr 2012 18:09

Few more pics of Vikramaditya from Oleg Kuleshov
http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/45828.html

Indrajit
BRFite
Posts: 167
Joined: 19 Feb 2004 12:31
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indrajit » 26 Apr 2012 18:38

The control tower looks pretty odd on the Vik,why can't such a huge Island accomodate a control tower,does'nt it look like a flawed design?

JMT

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1653
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sid » 26 Apr 2012 22:23

^^
That's what you get when you try to convert a helicopter carrier to aircraft carrier.

Deck landing on such a cramped space is going to be a real chalange

aniket
BRFite
Posts: 290
Joined: 14 Dec 2010 17:34
Location: On the top of the world

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby aniket » 26 Apr 2012 22:36

Doesn't it already have a control tower.IIRC the tower is so huge because when it was built it housed a phased array radar, extensive electronic warfare installations, and an enlarged command and control suite.In fact the Gorkshov was considered a separate class because of that.The huge radar was the antenna for the Mars-Passat ("Sky Watch") 3D air search radar, comparable to the US SCANFAR radar if not the AN/SPY-1 used by the Aegis combat system.

keshavchandra
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 22:23

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby keshavchandra » 27 Apr 2012 00:41

Comment on INS vik. Project and its mere situation (May be some years prior) by a worker. After seeing all these current facts and design issues (Quoted), it was a real challenge for the manufacturer and its refitting, to get it under the shoe of IN. Just take a look...

well, what is there to justify if the project is in general a curve, I'm on this project six years in the hydraulics involved in PKB, give concrete examples of its parts, PTG30 / 2 (podemnik trossovy hydraulically) a large aircraft podemnik located in the middle of the deck, a series of airplane delivery on poletku than 5 minutes, only to rise or descent of the platform's documentation is more than 2 minutes, and even towing and unfastening of the aircraft, near the lift up to 30 tons will be one of the starting positions, working with them can be said at once puts an end to the takeoff and landing ( this heritage Gorshkov from him not to leave). In the place of contact with aircraft landing deck, great location arms cellar with a lift lid and poletke, and why it was doing this to me as a cellar is not very clear, it is very small, judging by the number of racks, climbs back up poltyschi shells but a dozen bombs. At the time when I had left Hull consumers of hydraulic potential in an emergency situation were not able to manual control (which is the valve protivozharnoy, heeling, diferentnoy, bilge, fuel, in general almost all spacecraft systems with the exception of special systems GEMs), simply because the designer of the ship utsanovil bypass spool valves backwards, I told them 2 months of angry letters he wrote about it a potentially dangerous situation, but they are probably smarter, left as is. Brake wire ropes on the project by the way, only 3 and not 4 as Kuznetsov, due to the fact that the hydraulic brake car is not acidic, and the fourth to push the size of nowhere, an Indian sweet flyers will not be in this regard. Does the ship have to anchor the device, I just do not know, and the most funny that it works just do not even know the designer of the ship, and the iron came from the northeast at 70% otlichlos of drawings, we certainly blinded the working scheme of the fact that it was in the factory but how it will work there Dunno, a similar situation with the SPU boats. Small pile of idiocy out there, such as a block gidroraspredliteley in the same room, and allows the distributor to translate this unit is powered by a backup pump station in another nafigaaaaaaa? I certainly do not remember everything now, but this ship is one big fun, like a lot of different things, but these little things add up to a total ass, mainly the fault of the designer and the factory in Nikolaev (only factory in Nikolaev may, at one and the is drawing to collect three different tanks). In short we do not need this. Indians for the first time come for training, but we no longer need, we already have one of these. Edited at 6:33 pm 4.26.2012 (UTC)

krisna
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5829
Joined: 22 Dec 2008 06:36

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krisna » 27 Apr 2012 02:15

Indian Navy Commissions Stealth Frigate 'Teg' Tomorrow
Image
Image
The Indian Navy commissions the first of its follow-on Talwar-class (modified Krivak-II) stealth frigates Teg today at Yantar shipyard in St Petersburg. The Commissioning CO is Capt Rakesh Kumar Dahiya. Shano Varuna.


Return to “Military Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest