Indian Naval Discussion

David Siegel
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 09 Sep 2012 15:39

IN and Coast Guard off the guard :evil:
@MOD: Please move this to appropriate thread if required.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=euyYDIPnaGk&feature=plcp

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 09 Sep 2012 19:02

I think India can strike a deal with russia for more nuclear SSNs with some military cooperation/understanding vs the chinese fleet.If a powerful IN can tie the chinese down in IO and South China sea., they might feel less adventurous in their northen borders with Russia.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nakul » 09 Sep 2012 19:12

I think that in the obvious delay in acquiring SSKs, we will need to acquire another Akula to augment our submarine fleet. Acquireing 2 will ensure that at least one can be on duty at all times.

Moreover, it might be a good idea to have a co-operation with another country to build submarines on the lines of "Brahmos." If the Arihant is deemed a success, we already have most building blocks for making a submarine. AIP / fuel cells can be an area where ToT might help jumpstart the program. VL Brahmos, SAMs & other IN wishes could be more easily integrated in the new build.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Sep 2012 20:09

the only synergy I would see is with Japan and Aus both of whom are going for large SSK. Japan with Soryu and Aus is considering either Soryu and U216 to replace collins.
while the HDW might have better specs on paper, it doesnt exist today and Aus is likely to be only customer...they dont exactly operate in a high threat or needy env......playing hero under unkils cover is always easy. Japan seems to take its JMSDF far more seriously in terms of funding and eqpt.....and their machine tools/electronic/shipbuilding industry is top notch .... hooking in with them for Soryu-I would be a major strategic coup imo....we could even license their Oshumi design for ASW patrol carrier , get a couple made there and rest here.

we are paying huge financial escalation and opportunity costs in not making up mind and moving on P75 project.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nakul » 09 Sep 2012 20:17

We could simply speed up the process by adopting to IN's initial plan of acquiring a western submarine (Scorpene) & an eastern (Russian?). The west part has already been decided and Russia does not have any serious competitors in the east.

An independent Japan would be a boon to us but we all know the US - Japanese relationship. IMHO it would be unwise to allow unkil a step in our submarine fleet. Unless IN chooses to change its initial plan, we are stuck with the Russian line of subs. In that case, it would be prudent to ask for greater ToT by going for a joint project rather than simply buying one off the shelf.

License production (with ToT) is good as long as it makes us immune to external manipulations. But nothing beats designing your own boat. :evil:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 09 Sep 2012 20:48

i think IN is still toying with the MKIsed scorpene albit of larger dimensions for its second line.. but i think too many eggs in french basket ?!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ranjbe » 09 Sep 2012 21:46

David Siegel wrote:IN and Coast Guard off the guard :evil:
@MOD: Please move this to appropriate thread if required.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euyYDIPnaGk&feature=plcp


This is 7 years old (2005). Is it still relevant today?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Sep 2012 04:06

The mighty Ark Royal sold for scrap! What a missed opportunity to have been used in an amphib/ASW role.To see the excellent condition of the ship,pensioned off early due to UK budget cuts,there was an excellent feature of it on its last voyage on Nat Geo a few days ago.We could've acquired the ship and all its Harriers for a song.The USMC acquired all 70+ Harriers for their amphibious ships instead.The manner in which we've extended the life of the Viraat shows that the Ark could've soldiered on for at least another 15 years.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9531606 ... scarp.html

Flagship aircraft carrier Ark Royal to be sold for scarp
The former flagship of the Royal Navy is to be sold off to scrap merchants ending two years of uncertainly over her future, it will be announced in Parliament today.

By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
09 Sep 2012

HMS Ark Royal, once the bullish symbol of Britain’s defence diplomacy, will follow the ignominious fate of her sister ship HMS Invincible by ending life as a razor blades.

There had been strong indications that she would sold to a British diving company and sunk off the Devon coast to become a major scuba diving attraction.

An estimated bid of £6.5 million was submitted to purchase the ship that as a diving reef could have contributed up to £30 million to the local economy

Chief Petty Officer Nicholas Downs on the deck of the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal (PA)
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20 Apr 2012

But it is understood that the Ministry of Defence hierarchy could not stomach the imagery of the iconic aircraft carrier sinking to bottom at a time when the Navy has been decimated by cuts.

Officials have examined a series of other options for the 22,000 ton warship that included becoming a casino off China, a London heliport, nightclub or museum ship.

But the announcement in Parliament is expected to reveal the details of the scrap deal after the vessel was decommissioned in 2010 five years ahead of its expected sell-by date.

HMS Invincible was sold to a Turkish scrap metal firm last year as part of the MoD's drive to get its finances in order but there was great indignation when photographs appeared of its hulk being stripped.

Ark Royal is seen as a symbol of the former might of the Royal Navy, being the fifth vessel to carry the name of the flagship which saw off the Spanish Armada in 1588.

Known as the Mighty Ark, the light aircraft carrier saw action in the Adriatic during the Bosnian War in 1993 before being sent to lead the British fleet during the invasion of Iraq a decade later.

Following the Strategic Defence and Security Review's decision to scupper the vessel and ground the Harrier jump jet fleet 18 months ago, the Royal Ark has been awaiting its fate in Portsmouth harbour.

A MoD spokesman said: ''HMS Ark Royal was decommissioned in 2010 after three decades of service and an announcement on her future will be made to Parliament on Monday.

''Retiring her five years earlier than planned was a difficult but necessary decision to help address the multi-billion pound Defence deficit and deliver a balanced MoD budget.

''The new, much larger Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers will start to enter service in 2017.''

However there is a strong chance that the Ark Royal’s name might be preserved if, as hinted, the Prince of Wales agrees to allow its name to replace his on the second 60,000 ton carrier being built.


PS:Conventional AIP subs in future will be of two kinds.Those with supersonic/LR cruise missiles and those without.Replacing the older Kilos with Brahmos equipped Amurs (finally being pefected) would to me be one of the options,as there are newer modernised Kilos still being constructed for Vietnam,Venezuela,etc.They would also come in at approx.,if one is to take open source info at its word, half the price of a Scorpene.The IN should concentrate upon designing and building both ATVs and SSGNs modelled upon the basic ATV hull.Mastering the ability to design and build nuclear powered subs is the highest priority for the IN.Until we are able to do so,building SSBNs first to meet the PRC challenge,acquiring another two Akulas would help immensely in replacing the declining sub numbers and extendign our reach and capability.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Sep 2012 09:00

none of the options on the table seem to fit our needs best.
my idea of our needs being
- nirbhay is a must
- brahmos is a must
- atleast 20 HWT/subsonic ASM in the torpedo room
- long endurance
- AIP

[1] the Amur is a failure and Russia is instead going to build Kilo-NG instead for coastal patrols. Amur was never demoed with any VL capability or in-service AIP though no doubt if enough money x time is poured into it, Rus can come up with a solution. the time to start on that is past.
[2] HDW U216 - has a promising set of specs, but the multipurpose section behind the sail seems oriented toward equipt and swimout chambers for KSK operators rather than a missile VL array. not in service. no potential export customer other than Aus. unlikely to be funded by germany - too big for the Baltic sea where U212 rules.
[3] Soryu - again looks promising on the outside. swedish AIP system. should be good given japanese technology levels and free access to help from USA. has the strong suit of being in-service with more building, so issues will be looked at and fixed. lacks the VL section amidships to fire large weapons like brahmos. Japan govt approvals might pose some initial hurdles.

now since nothing available has the perfect fit to our need, one has to compromise. where to compromise is the question.
my personal compromise I would like to float out is
[1] abandon the VL sub launched brahmos
[2] loaded out 30 weapons is there in soryu and U216 so reload count of HWT and ASM is not an issue.
[3] tomahawk SLCM is in service from torpedo tubes on british subs, adapt nirbhay to fire out of TT if its not that way now (each sub could carry ~15 nirbhay)
[4] go for the more mature Soryu design, as a side benefit get our first real contact and tieup with japan's mighty shipbuilding industry..clean up our act and our trash lying around in yards..be tfta.
[5] use 3M54E and 3M54E1 Klubs as the prime ASM
[6] get a pvt yard to build the 3rd sub onward in India and build atleast 6 subs to the same design.
[7] slightly upsize the Soryu to improve the AIP performance and living quarters given our longer transit times via indonesian straits into western pacific.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 10 Sep 2012 14:09

Singha Ji,

The 216 at a first glance looks like it has been designed to meet the P 75I requirement. Consider its range and the fact that it is advertised that it can transit through the Malacca straits and its relative long range.

Could be mistaken though.

But I guess that we need to wait for the successful completion of the P 75 it self before the P75I can arrive.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Will » 10 Sep 2012 14:34

There were reports that one of the major reasons why the P75I has been delayed was because none of the manufacturers had a submarine that matched the IN requirements. Seems like the Vendors had asked for time to design a sub that would meet the IN specifications. The U216 is one such effort I think. But this could also create a problem where none of the newly designed subs would have been built or inducted anywhere. Does the criteria that the weapons system should be in actual service hold true for the P75I requirement to? Correct me if I am wrong but wasnt the U209 designed specifically for the IN? I was to young at that time to remember. :)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 10 Sep 2012 14:46

209 was designed as a family of subs with the 1500 meeting the IN requirements. The class stared with 900 went up to 1800 which formed the basis for the Israeli Dolphin class.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nakul » 10 Sep 2012 15:04

There is also a little issue with integrating Brahmos with the sub. I don't see Russia co operating with western desgins on this aspect. Can we do this on our own?

There were a few reports going around that Brahmos Corp was adamant on using VLS for underwater Brahmos. IN was sticking to SAMs as VLS. Dunno what the situation is now.

These new subs could form a nuke deterrent armed with nuke Nirbhay missiles.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 10 Sep 2012 15:20

Russian help will not really be important once the Sub launched Brahmos is perfected. As the missile will be made in India. The launchers perimeters can easily be shared for integration with the designer.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Sep 2012 17:22

with Klub in service, what is the need for brahmos on subs? both have a similar speed, klub terminal stage is smaller. we can continue to buy and use klub for submarines while using brahmos for surface units. given the sheer density of PLA/PLAAF targets on the tibet plateau, brahmos corp will be maxed out for years and years producing enough missiles for IA alone. and they can still make the proposed mini-brahmos for fleetwide use across the IAF. I dont see submarines as a similar huge market for them or even critical. we have the tools like Klub and HWT to take a ship apart.

nirbhay SLCM when it comes, will be a very potent land attack weapon due to its range advantage vs brahmos.

I say we need to move our backsides on this soon, because the yard selected will need a couple years to ramp up , train people, order long lead items, while the foreign yard delivers the first couple we still need to get ready in a big way.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 11 Sep 2012 01:42

Regardless of which sub we choose, this time the Navy must put its foot down and ask for the first 2 subs to be delivered completely built by a shipyard in the manufacturer's country. We really do not need a Scorpene redux with the P-75I.

BTW, Singha saar, you missed the S-80 and Marlin in your comparative analysis. I couldn't find much info about the specs of the Marlin class. But I guess we can expect them to have at least some degree of commonality with the Scorpene.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nakul » 11 Sep 2012 01:51

Things are looking bad from a speed point of view. The earliest date for Scorpene is 2015. The MDL is insisting that all the subs should be manufactured in India. IN has tried to bridge the requirement between speed & indigenous development by asking for the first 2 subs to be built in foreign shipyards by Indian labor.

On the SLCM front, currently we don't have an indigenous missile. France will be supplying Exocets with Scorpenes. Brahmos is not ready nor is the launch platform. Klub missiles did not perform satisfactorily in Russia when launched from Indian Kilos. IN refused to take command of the sub without rectifying the Klub issue. Perhaps thats why an indigenous platform seems so seductive. Nirbhay & Brahmos could make us independent on the SLCM part.

I wonder whether L&T (or any other yard) can speed up production of SSGNs. A few Arihant class subs could patrol for months armed with conventional missiles. A few Nirbhays wouldn't go amiss either. We can't wait for the SSBNs to complete before starting production of SSNs. As some of our inhouse experts said, Arihant class subs will be converted to SSGNs once the newer & bigger (Avinash?) class of SSBNs come online.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 11 Sep 2012 04:02

Instead of waiting for MDL they should let L&T build the follow on P-76. If they can build nuke subs they can build diesel electric also.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 11 Sep 2012 04:24

L&T have been waiting for a long time to build Russian B'mos armed subs,the model was shown 4 years ago at Aero-India and at Defexpos.MDL however want to hog the whole art of sub building despite the Scorpene delays fearing being shut out later on when private yards prove more efficient,hence their insistence of the lot being built at home/MDL.L&T which is supplying major components of the ATV could easily build the second line,but sadly wasting its talents/skills.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 11 Sep 2012 04:36

Its the MoD's decision. If they chose they can easily award it to L&T and ask MDL to focus on scorpene and follow on if required since 6 are clearly not enough.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2012 07:36

indeed. with such massive cost and investment, MDL should be asked to make 6 more Scorpene2 subs.
meantime the parallel line can proceed.
it would be stupid to wait until 2020 to let MDL finish the scorpene, implement the changes needed for a entirely new design and start building. we would get the 1st not before 2025!!
in that time period, Cheen will churn out atleast 10 new SSK for sure, if not more.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 11 Sep 2012 23:15

The cost of additional Scorpenes will be phenomenal.The Scorpenes are already hugely beyond their original cost and ideally a new Indian sub design would be best.In fact I would advocate MDL to build if it can,a new SSGN They in retrospect have been a very costly yet to be acquired decision.In addition,they do not come with any missile equiv. to the Russian Klub series,the latest versions of Exocet of lesser range and sub-sonic.Our decision taken years ago seems to have been in part to stymie the PN from progressing to a newer tech of French boats than their home-built Agostas AIPs.With the Germans reluctant to sell the PN their U-boats,Pak now has to rely upon Chinese reverse-engineered tech and their French Agosta class tech.
The latest F mag issue has details of Russian sub blg. diesel and nuclear boats.The next two Amurs (Kronstadt and Sebastopol) to be built for Russia have started and from third sub onwards will have AIP.Amur design now frozen for production."14-20" non-nuclear powered boats of the Amur (677) and Kilo (636.3) will be built 12 new Kilo "636.3" subs are also being built for Russia and Vietnam.These have more automation than earlier Kilos.Why Kilos are still being built are because of reliability,already in service,cost-cheap,time-only 3 years to build a sub, new weaponry and all are Klub missile armed,missiles superior to any on western boats.Key ingredient in diesel subs is the weaponry says Rubin's chief.Both will be offered to India,Kilos as an interiim solution to replace older Kilos.On offer is also a second refit and modernisation proposal for old Kilos to extend their life by upto 10 years.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 11 Sep 2012 23:41

Philip wrote:The latest F mag issue has details of Russian sub blg. diesel and nuclear boats.The next two Amurs (Kronstadt and Sebastopol) to be built for Russia have started and from third sub onwards will have AIP.Amur design now frozen for production."14-20" non-nuclear powered boats of the Amur (677) and Kilo (636.3) will be built 12 new Kilo "636.3" subs are also being built for Russia and Vietnam.These have more automation than earlier Kilos.Why Kilos are still being built are because of reliability,already in service,cost-cheap,time-only 3 years to build a sub, new weaponry and all are Klub missile armed,missiles superior to any on western boats.Key ingredient in diesel subs is the weaponry says Rubin's chief.Both will be offered to India,Kilos as an interiim solution to replace older Kilos.On offer is also a second refit and modernisation proposal for old Kilos to extend their life by upto 10 years.


Phillip Kilo's Combat management system is relatively obsolete compared to other submarines even U-209s that where built locally and not to mention Kilo's are more expensive to maintain and would require Russian assistance for refits etc. So buying Kilo for interim solution makes little sense, when we could have building more U-209s locally.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 12 Sep 2012 00:44

If after building the Scorpenes and HDW (in the 90's) IN/MDL can't design their own submarine then they can only blame themselves. The P-76 should be Indian design based on experience gathered from Scorpene/HDW/ATV and kilo operations.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nakul » 12 Sep 2012 00:49

We should concentrate indigenous efforts into building more nuclear submarines. Whether we like it or not, diesel subs can be brought off the shelf. Nuclear subs are almost always inhouse construction. We can't expect Russia to keep leasing their SSNs everytime. The IN should have an SSN design stowed away waiting for the Arihant class of subs to complete.

If we can get a few SSNs up and running, it would reduce the huge deficit we are running with China. After all, isn't 1 SSN = 3 SSKs?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 12 Sep 2012 01:07

Nakul,
There is nothing wrong with utilizing a foreign company for design but when it comes to execution MDL seems to be lacking and seem to require a great deal of French assistance when it comes to building the Scorpene (compare that with Korea). As for 1 SSN = 3 SSK they are completely different platforms and Scorpene by itself costs as much as LA class SSN (wouldn't be surprised if final figure is well over 1 billion each).
Last edited by John on 12 Sep 2012 01:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 12 Sep 2012 01:08

They have very different use. In Littoral waters near the coast the AIP equipped SSK still rules. IN needs to have a balance force IMHO it should have 5 SSBN & 10 SSGN/N for blue water, second strike and 20 AIP SSK's for littoral combat by 2035-40. For the near term (2025) will have to do with 3 -4 SSBN, 3-5 SSN and 15-16 SSK. This means getting L&T and PIPVAV into the act and soon.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nakul » 12 Sep 2012 01:18

Personally I am glad that we are building up a technological base for building submarines. Unfortunately, this is slowing down the Scorpene program but IMHO it is a worthy trade off.

SSKs can be purchased directly from any submarine manufacuring company. Vietnam is in a fix in SCS. So it has ordered 6 Kilo class submarines. Russia is churning them out at a rate of 1 a year. If push comes to shove, we will have to do the same.

Until then, we are expanding our tech base and hopefully put some more money into L&T's coffers while demanding them to increase their capacity. We don't need a Soviet style war machine churning out subs like sausages but it would good to give our scientists new challenges (Russia had 20000 scientists working on nuke subs per Dr Saraswat. Image the Soviet number before that!)

As for the 2nd Akula, either we are doing it under the table or Mr Antony thinks its not worth the money (unlikely IMO). They are what we need more urgently since our current nos are heavily lopsided in favor of SSKs. Israel has ordered 3 Dolphin class subs for their nuke deterrent. Perhaps we might use a similar model armed with Nirbhay if Arihant proves inadequate. SSBNs seem to have a bulls eye marked on them. We could routinely send subs armed with Nirbhay in SCS without raising suspicion like an Arihant would. Does anyone know about the successor of Arihant class?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 12 Sep 2012 04:56

ISI’s eavesdroppingon Indian Navy inJaffna rattles RAW
Setting up of a listening post by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in Jaffna of northern Sri Lanka has rattled the security establishment with agencies suspecting that the notorious spy agency might snoop on the communication lines of the Indian Navy.

A recent report of the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), the country’s premier external intelligence agency, has warned of increased ISI activities in Jaffna in the last 3-4 months during which they have been erecting spy equipment for keeping tabs on the movement of Indian submarines, agency sources said.

Following the RAW report, a high level meeting was held in the National Security Council (NSC) Secretariat on Tuesday to assess the threat and take counter measures to contain any damage to the strategic plans. A presentation was made by the Director General of Military Intelligence highlighting the importance of securing the communication lines of naval assets. Sources said India is likely to take up the issue with Sri Lankan authorities to check the instance of a third country using its territory to target another nation.

China has in the past established a similar listening post in Coco Islands to keep tabs on the communication waves and ship movement in the Andamans.

ISI’s listening post in Jaffna is close to the Indian coastline and the notorious Pakistani agency wants to listen in on all the communication of Indian submarines and those of the Visakhapatnam-based Eastern Command that boasts of Indian nuclear submarines as well INS Chakra of Russian origin in its fleet.

Recently, the ISI had been involved in digging a tunnel along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu in its bid to infiltrate terrorists into Jammu and Kashmir that has of late exhibited signs of return of normalcy. The infamous spy agency is also suspected to be behind incidents of fire in a number of Sufi shrines in the State so as to fuel tension amongst the communities.

The origins of hate propaganda using cyberspace in the midst of the recent violence in the North-East were also reported from Pakistan.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 12 Sep 2012 12:13

John,Nakul,guys,I am posting the info in the mag.Earlier I advcoated building more U-boats since the firm,HDW had been cleared of any scam charges which had killed further production two decades ago.However,both the German U-boats and Scorpenes do not have a missile as versatile as the Klub series and consequently,will give us limited capability even though both are ecellent silent boats good for the littorals.Their cost too is exorbitant.The cost of a 10 yr. Akula lease ,with an option to buy it later on at depreciated prices,is a much better deal than just one or two Scorpenes!

This is where as an interim option,to keep numbers happy,even the Russians are building new 636.3 Kilos with modernised combat systems,sonars,commns systems and weaponry to equip the RuN.The IN needs to induct a sub in the future that has AIP plus can launch Brahmos/Klub,LR cruise missiles and also fire Shkval rocket TTs.It is most unlikely that any of the western subs will be able to acomodate B'mos because of their small size (why Oz has rejected them for their future subs) ,while a B'mos version of the Amur has been available in concept form for some time.It would probably be the cheapest too.

Designing diesel-electric AIP subs is a difficult task and let's face it,we have NO experience at all.The IN and our naval architcts can only draw upon their experince of operating Foxtrots,Kilos and U-209/1500s.Plus the generation of naval constructors who built the U-209s have all retd. However,where we are building our own sub and developing our own sub-tech,albeit with Russian help,is in the ATV series.Being significantly larger in size,it would be easier for us to design some of the eqpt.that does not require much miniturisation and automation as in highly automated Swedish boats.So if we concentrate upon mastering the art of building SSBNs and SSGNs which are the top priority of the IN and our strategic forces,the lesser task of acquiring diesel/AIP boats can be achieved with a JV with a foreign builder.Standardisation of most of the weaponry is another goal as it would make it far eaiser for inventories at bases on either seaboard where either a N-sub or diesel sub could be armed with the same TTs,missiles,etc.,instead of having to always return to a dedicated base.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 Sep 2012 15:54

For P75I, we already have:

1. Knowledge of what our Navy needs.
2. Building + quietening tech from scorpene.
3. Control room systems from Arihant.
4. Tech knowledge needed to install vertical missile launching system again from Arihant.
5. DRDO is already in process of building indigenous AIP system.
6. Brahmos + Nirbhay
7. Sonar.

what else we need buy?
1. Diesel engines
2. Torpedoes

Size of Soryu can be achieved by making a mini-diesel Arihant. So why go shopping for P 75I ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 12 Sep 2012 16:50

MoD/IN may want a cheaper alternative for P75I considering the huge price each Scorpene has. If so then Russian subs may be the answer. Japanese subs may well be costlier than Scorpenes. Our own design for P75I will be a huge risk and slippages will affect numbers. For now we can reserve our own design for the nuclear boats (SSNs/SSGNs) and leave P75I to a foreign design (wherever it may be built).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Sep 2012 18:12

From this link

Egypt subs deal boosts German arms sales

Germany paid the lion's share of the overall cost of the Dolphin sales to Israel, including more than one-third of the $1.8 billion price tag for the batch now being built, as well as giving Israel until 2015 to pay its share.



Why do our scorpenes cost soo much?

and
Berlin is negotiating with Saudi Arabia for the sale of some 600 Leopard 2A7+ main battle tanks potentially worth $12.6 billion



Comparitively Arjun Mk-2 is not so expensive.

khukri
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby khukri » 12 Sep 2012 21:31

^^^^^
Saudi deals are not the best yardstick to measure true cost -remember Al Yamamah?

Nick_S
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nick_S » 13 Sep 2012 06:32

Aditya_V wrote:Why do our scorpenes cost soo much?


Cuz our babus need to make their cut.

RajD
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby RajD » 14 Sep 2012 19:24

If not yet posted: The Russians are at it again supposedly due to unexpected bad weather.
http://www.defencenow.com/news/889/dela ... -navy.html
Yet another delay in testing schedule. causing delay in training of Indian pilots and finally the handover. God knows when it is going to see Indian shores.
Regards.

Kartik
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 15 Sep 2012 00:05

Nick_S wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Why do our scorpenes cost soo much?


Cuz our babus need to make their cut.


No, it's because we insisted on building all the Scorpenes in India, with its attendant infrastructure and training costs, with ToT to allow MDL to re-gain all the experience it lost after the 2 HDW Type-209-1500s were built there and no further submarine building went on for 2 decades. If further Scorpenes are ordered from MDL, some of the costs should only go down.

I know its fashionable to blame bureaucrats for everything, but they're not always to blame.

Kartik
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 15 Sep 2012 00:06

MiG-29K landing on and taking off from INS Vikramaditya

MiG-29K on Vik

Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Sep 2012 12:55

The problem is that the MOD/babudom seldom listens to the enduser and takes good advice,in this case the IN and imagines fondly that they can "do the business" and fail us time and again.In the Scorpene case,there has been a huge cost escalation and a minimum of 3 years delay,which looks like growing.As with the experience of the U-209s,even with the first two being built in Germany,look at MDLs track record of how long it took to build/assemble the remaining two! As many service officers have repeatedly said,who are these experts in defence in the MOD who sit in decision-making judgement over professionals in the field? There has been no audit of the ATV too,one of the reasons why Adm.Bhagwat ,allegedly who asked for one,was sacked. Babudom has deliberately kept apart and widened the communications between the executive and the military.Unless there is a better and closer networking between the exec.,MOD and the military,and integrataion of the armed forces into the MOD in the decision-making process,the current situ will remain and we the taxpayers will suffer .

zlin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby zlin » 17 Sep 2012 08:53

Some Chinese media quoted from Russian sources the INS Vikramaditya got serious problem/damages in sea trial. The vessel probably will have another year or more delay. Cost hikes?

Here is the link to Russian source in Russian

http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2024130

google translated

"Admiral Gorshkov" overheated in the Barents Sea

Aircraft carrier, and this year is not doplyvet to India

India terms of transfer of the former Russian aircraft carrier "Admiral Gorshkov" (Vikramaditya) newly migrated. As the "Y", during sea trials cruiser has a problem: seven of the eight boilers out of service. Now experts Severodvinsk "Sevmash" will assess the status of the damaged equipment, and understand how to deliver the ship to the dock (on one carrier operating the boiler does not get to it.) After that you can begin to eliminate the defects. The accident will inevitably affect the deadlines cruiser: the most optimistic projections, the Indian Navy will receive it no earlier than October 2013.

The fact that during sea trials cruiser Vikramaditya had serious problems, a source told "Kommersant", close to the "Rosoboronexport". According to him, on July 8 for the first time an aircraft carrier out into the Barents Sea from the dock, "Sevmash". The program was designed for 124 days. One priority is to test power plant carrier. "Once the cruiser set sail from the" Sevmash ", no visible problems arose. USS consistently scored low and average speed - says the source" b. "- But the test program, and called for the development of the maximum speed. Was the beginning of the problem." According to him, last week, as soon as the aircraft carrier picked up speed to 30 knots, with an alarm system sends a signal about the problems in the power plant. "Cruiser just got up. Later identified as eight power plant boilers, seven were put out of action," - he complained.



The source said the "Y", the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya was preparing for sea trials, the problem is that the Indian side rejected the traditional thermal boilers - asbestos, saying it increased danger to the crew. So the developer boilers - Special Boiler Design Bureau (ICBC) - had to look for a similar option: instead of asbestos boilers CVG-3D (see reference) were assessed refractory brickwork. Direct creation of steam boilers for the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya in 2005 involved the Baltic Shipyard. "When the experts have reached the power plant, it became clear that the brickwork around the boilers simply fell apart, unable to withstand the temperature, - stated the source" b. "- The condition itself boilers can be judged only after the carrier gets to the" Sevmash ", but fear that they will have to change, without foundation. "



December 4 - Day of the Navy of India - Vikramaditya aircraft carrier was to be transferred to the customer. Earlier deadlines repeatedly shifted (see the background). Now there is no doubt that the timing of re-move. Even if steam boilers do not have to change to the new needs and they will only repair specialists "Sevmash" will have to saw the cruiser compartment to remove them and the manufacturers - Baltic Plant argue sides "b" in the industry. "If the boilers can not be repaired, you have to create them again, and then to experience first on the stand, then install again and finally conduct sea trials," - says one of them. The source said the "Y" in the "Rosoboronexport", the Indian Ministry of Defence has already aware of the incident. "According to preliminary information, deadline postponed no earlier than October 2013," - he added, "b", adding that the readiness of the vessel to the other parameters is more than 95%.



"The situation is certainly unpleasant. Against the background of the entire cycle of the modernization of" Admiral Gorshkov ", which lasts for so many years, one year is not as dramatic, - said the deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, Konstantin Makiyenko."



However, the Russian experts, there are other problems. With one working boiler cruiser can not move, so if part of the seven damaged boiler does not work somehow, it will come to the fore the problem of transportation. The source said the "Y", most likely the finishing of the damaged boiler to working condition will be made directly to the ship, and on arrival at the "Sevmash" experts take their comprehensive evaluation, which ultimately will determine their fate. In addition, according to the "Y", this week should arrive in Severodvinsk delegation "Baltic Plant" and ICBC.



This is not the first pad of the Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation in the field of shipbuilding. For example, a long time are transferred to lease nuclear submarine K-152 "Seal". Initially the boat was to be transferred to the Indian Navy August 15, 2007, but due to the complexity of the modernization and an accident (in 2008 abnormally triggered fire extinguishing system - part of the crew perished) finally acceptance report was not signed until December 30, 2011. In other areas of the relationship are more successful: according to experts, up to 70% of basic supplies of Russian aircraft falls on India. In total, according to the "Y", the military-technical cooperation with India in the past year has brought Russia about $ 3.6 billion, or 27% of total revenue ($ 13.5 billion).



We also note that from 13 to 15 October in New Delhi on VI Russian-Indian Forum on Trade and Investment. It will be a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on trade-economic, scientific-technical and cultural cooperation, which the Russian side headed by Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, who oversees the government, the military-industrial complex. It is possible there again raise the question of the fate of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya.



Press Secretary Mr. Rogozin Lydia Mikhailova advised "Y" to make a written request to the Military-Industrial Commission. In the United Shipbuilding Corporation "Rosoboronexport" and "Sevmash" the official declined to comment. Get comments Baltic Plant and ICBC failed. The Embassy of India in Russia quickly comment on the situation as they could not.


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