Indian Naval Discussion

Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 18 Dec 2012 22:29

Have we purchased the Klub ASROC-ski: 91RE1?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 18 Dec 2012 22:44

titash wrote:I had some thoughts on the NOPVs being built in GSL - these appear to be 2000+ tons, somewhat "stealthy", equipped with a "stealth" 76mm gun, and 2x AK-630 CIWS, in addition to helicopter/hangar


The real deal : 8)

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yLBE ... GP8107.JPG

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hnair » 19 Dec 2012 00:27

whoa Aditya G 8)

About the upgraded subs firing Klubs, So with these tests, we finally have a declared land-attack capability from subs. No more dragging little boats to kick your ass, pakis :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 19 Dec 2012 00:55

Thanks hnair & Aditya G

That is a pretty large hangar. I wonder if it can hold a SeaKing sized heli or just a light heli.

Good news on ze klubs...Karachi 71 anyone? :-)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 19 Dec 2012 01:23


That is super cool 8)

Found another
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby KrishnaK » 19 Dec 2012 02:29

^^ Which ship is that ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Misraji » 19 Dec 2012 02:42


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Amitabh » 19 Dec 2012 16:24

indranilroy wrote:

That is super cool 8)

Found another
Image

What's the hull on the far left? Looks larger than an OPV but does not resemble either the Kamorta class or Shivalik class.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Dec 2012 16:38

the size and shape of this OPV makes it look like a proper ocean going patrol ship of the lafayette mould. not heavily armed but long legs and good seakeeping.

perhaps 8 urans in steeply inclined tubes could be accomodated harpoon style in some crack of the woodwork no?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 19 Dec 2012 17:32

it's not as simple as plug and play. The CG of these ships will be but one consideration in up arming them. I am sure tsarkar can elaborate on the feasibility of such a proposal.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Dec 2012 19:00

Even the woebegone ships the pn gets from us retired fleet have 8 harpoons in packs of four in steeply inclined tubes. Seen in a lot of smaller royal navy vessels as well. Uran is a light and small missile...even the kora class has 16 of them iirc. These are smaller than these opv. And they have two ak630 as well.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JTull » 19 Dec 2012 19:30


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 19 Dec 2012 19:41

Exactly Singha ji. Packing 8 inclined Urans and 8 or maybe 16 Barak-1's shouldn't be a problen on a 2000 tonne ship. But I assume they will only be fitted in case of emergencies like war or naval blockade of pakis. Right now it seems fitted for long range patrol around Malacca or Somalian coast.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Dec 2012 19:57

funny thing is due to lack of suitably sized patrol vessels, the USN uses DDG51 ships in that role and the only thing useful is the squad of marines onboard and some 0.50cal HMGs fixed on poles.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 19 Dec 2012 21:24

Bheeshma wrote:Exactly Singha ji. Packing 8 inclined Urans and 8 or maybe 16 Barak-1's shouldn't be a problen on a 2000 tonne ship. But I assume they will only be fitted in case of emergencies like war or naval blockade of pakis. Right now it seems fitted for long range patrol around Malacca or Somalian coast.

To fit either would require a refit , unless the vessel is pre fitted with structural components to support inclined launcher and Fire control system it is unlikely they can fitted during conflict. Uran's don't come cheap and fitting that along with Barak will easily double the cost of OPV not to mention additional cost of maintenance. One of reasons CG went with Medak rather than Super Rapids on some of Patrol vessels.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rupak » 19 Dec 2012 21:46

Fitting Urans on the NOPV would defeat its very design and operational philosophy. First you would need to rewire/recable the, then in addition to Urans, you would have to install the appropriate sensors (radar, etc). That would add both to capex and opex..not to mention top weight in this case.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 19 Dec 2012 22:04

She looks complete except for the AK gun mounts.

Singha wrote:the size and shape of this OPV makes it look like a proper ocean going patrol ship of the lafayette mould. not heavily armed but long legs and good seakeeping.

perhaps 8 urans in steeply inclined tubes could be accomodated harpoon style in some crack of the woodwork no?

....

funny thing is due to lack of suitably sized patrol vessels, the USN uses DDG51 ships in that role and the only thing useful is the squad of marines onboard and some 0.50cal HMGs fixed on poles.


I was reflecting upon the same points during a training in office :mrgreen:

Now first of all, this class is a substantial improvement over its predecessor (Sukanya class):

• Displacement: ~2200 vs ~1900. Size is accordingly higher
• Air Defence: 2x30 mm CWIZ vs none
• Main Armament: 1x76 mm Turret gun vs 1x40 mm Bofors cannon
• Stealthy shaping

The Indian Navy's strategy seems to lie upon making small numbers of highly specialized vessels (Khukri class for example). On the lack of missile armament; there was a similar discussion on P-28 Kamorta class as well. Tsarkarji had clearly explained the effect of additional armament on displacement, costs etc

Nevertheless, lack of missile capability is a disappointment. There are several classes which are smaller and perhaps not as capable, yet are armed with missiles:

• IN Khukri Class: 1500 Tons – 2x2 P-15 Styx
• IN Kora Class: 1500 Tons – 4x4 Kh-35 Urans
• IN Veer Class: ~500 Tons – 2x2 P-15 Styx
• PN Azmat Class: 560 Tons – 2x4 C-802

Per wiki even SLNS Sayura (ex IN Sukanya class vessel) was modified with C-802 missiles.

PS: What is our grouse with Kashtan? Why not have missile and gun based air defence in the same system (vs having none).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nikhil_p » 19 Dec 2012 22:57

Going out on a limb here!...

What if, and a big IF at that, we load a Brahmos/Prahaar/Smerch TEL vehicle on this (if possible just the trailer with the tubes) in the Heli Hangar bay, with the Helo travelling on the Pad, tied down by chains (:D). When it is attack time, the helo takes off, the TEL rolls out and launches.

The weight penalty will not be very great ( I suppose) and at the same time will give a long range attack capability for those 'surprise' attacks ala Karachi.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 19 Dec 2012 23:09

Those ships were *designed* from the ground up to sport those weapons. The Saryu class has been optimized for something else. It is not simple plug and play.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rupak » 19 Dec 2012 23:37

Aditya,
The P-25s and Tarantuls are optimized for a different type of mission and were designed from the ground up (as D Roy says) to embark missiles. The NOPVs are designed for low-intensity operations which require good sea-keeping and endurance. The more cost-effective way of arming them with missiles is to embark helicopter equipped missiles.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hnair » 19 Dec 2012 23:55

The Tarantuls et al seem to be for a coastal defense type role, which will attempt to prevent an enemy capital ship from approaching a coastal target in peninsular India. A purely defensive role, akin to coastal batteries, but more flexible. They will not venture deeper into sea, to hunt down other capital ships, nor can they undertake long patrols.

Arming these new OPV ships with missiles during war is not an option either, as these are not blue-tooth enabled. The easiest role is escort for vital sea lanes during war. Remember china have a lot of undercover trawlers (even contractors from ASEAN region), that can act as raiders during wartime and really cause disruptions to an already raised insurance rates. Any of these OPVs can ease these trawler/raiders into the davy jones' locker with minimal fuss.

Plus if we can get a modular towed sonar going, it can form an effective node of a grid.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 20 Dec 2012 01:56

Well I certainly hope ASW capability in the form of 324 mm TT and Tower array sonar. Do Indian Seakings or KA-28's carry KH-35V? That would add some punch otherwise both P-28 and NOPV seem rather toothless.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 20 Dec 2012 02:20

PS: What is our grouse with Kashtan? Why not have missile and gun based air defence in the same system (vs having none).

It is more expensive than Barak and requires extensive deck penetration & space in order to be fitted in and also in trials its performance was lackluster. Russians claimed to have fixed the latter issues with latest variant and are also offering Palma which is cheaper and can be easily mounted on in place of ak-630s

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hnair » 20 Dec 2012 02:27

Beeshma, NOPVs are not capital ships which need golden teeth. Their primary purpose is not offensive action against another capital combatant of an opponent, but more like running the writ of India during long years of peace, in a cost effective fashion around IOR rim. It is a really important law enforcement objective, that upholds the prestige of a power during peace, as much as a big Vicky might do during war.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23364 » 20 Dec 2012 02:49

324 mm TT would really NOT add up to any significant ASW capability, range and warhead on the 324mm TT would put them more as a defensive platform than an offensive one.

We need 533 mm TT's on them, they carry a serious punch, have a 50km range and require marginally more space than 324mm TT's. Also, IN has already put in place a big order (200?) for Blackshark TT's for Scorpene subs. If that option is costly, we can also plan for the indigenous Varunastra or Thakshak TT's (if and when they are developed). A 2100 ton, 105M ship can carry 2X2 or 4X4 533mm TT's easily and with the state of indigenous Sonar technology today (no details of the Humsa NG yet), can hopefully make use of the 50km TT range easily.

Somehow, I feel that the Kamorta class and the Saryu class are under-weaponized, even though there is good potential for arming them. I mean, can't we at-least fully arm them for a single ASW, ASM or AA role? We are already paying 500 crores/boat (Rs 2600 crores for 5 boats) for the Saryu class. Pay 100-125 crores more/boat and add a good radar/sonar with either a Barak-8 or 533 mm TT's or a quadruple Kh-35 launcher. Since there are 9 Saryu & 4 Kamorta class ships to be built/being built, I daresay, we might even have some economies of scale here.

They are not small platforms, so why limit their weapons packages?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 20 Dec 2012 04:39

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ct-380052/

No talk of delays in the Barak 8 here

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 20 Dec 2012 07:07

As hnair saab said - the NOPV appears to be an asset that will serve India well through the long years of peace. Patrolling pirate infested somali/malacca waters, SAR, 'show the flag' visits to the island nations, etc. for much less $$$ than a Shivalik/Talwar

The frigate/destroyer units will thus have less 'mileage' on them and will be reserved for those 2 weeks of conflict that hopefully will never take place

Judging by the fact that we have 9 NOPV on order (4 GSL, 5 Pipavav) in addition to 6 for the Coast Guard, clearly we appear to be preparing for a sustained presence in somali waters. Insurance rates have risen so high on account of our pirate birathers (with 'handlers' in London and 'supporters/guides' in pakistan) that it will take a very large naval commitment to achieve freedom-of-the-seas for our exports/imports

As regards the use of NOPV during wartime, helicopter launched torpedoes/AShM seem to be the best strike option. Ideally a towed array sonar package would be deployed as a force multiplier...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 20 Dec 2012 07:24

Misraji wrote:INS Saryu class OPVs.

The project is delayed because the Indian supplier contracted to supply the gearboxes has yet to deliver them. The gearboxes have been ordered from an OEM and the first gearbox is scheduled to be delivered by early December 2011

Was this a private gearbox supplier or a PSU? Presumably the OEM is a dedicated manufacturer of gearboxes

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Dec 2012 08:31

the power plant is presumably a pair of marine diesel engines? wiki lists it simply as 2 x 7790 KW engines.

one domestic supplier is Elecon of Pune who import from Renk of germany and assemble locally. they are supplying gearboxes for all P17, P15A and ADS-1 ships.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 20 Dec 2012 09:29

Wars occur less than once a decade, and Navies spend most of their time patrolling & keeping SLOCs open. Deploying a frigate or a destroyer against a pirate skiff is uneconomical.

These ships have high range/endurance ensuring longer time on station.

During wartime, they defend high value assets like frigates/destroyers/aircraft carriers from missile boats like Azmat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNS_Azmat

The 76 mm gun outrange the 23 mm light gun easily destroying their light hulls, while the AK-630 gives protection against missiles.

If required to undertake ASuW or ASW, they can embark a Seaking equipped with Radar + Sea Eagles or Dipping Sonar + Torpedoes.

Cost contributors are Sensors, Weapons, Machinery & Hull in that order. Not fitting expensive sensors or weapons saves a lot of cost.

Fitting missiles on ship will be an expensive proposition, when 4 Type 15B & 7 17A are on order carrying loads of missiles.

INS Kolkata carries more BrahMos than there are ships in the Pakistani Navy.

Aditya – the comments you’re attributing to me are from Rupak, who is a writer on defence matters. I’ve read a couple of well written articles by Rupak Chattopadhyay & I’m assuming it’s the same Rupak. BR has made good contribution to defence journalism in India through people like Krishnan, Maz, D Roy, Mihir, Chacko et al.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 20 Dec 2012 09:31

Singha wrote:
one domestic supplier is Elecon of Pune who import from Renk of germany and assemble locally. they are supplying gearboxes for all P17, P15A and ADS-1 ships.


Unless I am mistaken, the type of excuse/reason given for failure of supply of such a gearbox is "The grade of steel required did not arrive from USA/France". OT, but even for LCA, the aviation grade aluminium comes from abroad.

When I hear/read such things I begin to wonder about the real meaning of "domestic industry" and what MIC would mean under the circumstances.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 20 Dec 2012 09:34

tsarkar wrote:
Aditya – the comments you’re attributing to me are from Rupak, who is a writer on defence matters. I’ve read a couple of well written articles by Rupak Chattopadhyay & I’m assuming it’s the same Rupak. BR has made good contribution to defence journalism in India through people like Krishnan, Maz, D Roy, Mihir, Chacko et al.


There is no Rupak but BR Rupak and Chattopadhyay is his name.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Dec 2012 10:14

http://www.elecon.com/products.php?id=140&level1_id=30

Shiv you will no doubt want to pore over their house magazine (14mb) http://www.elecon.com/pdf/elwaves-2011.pdf

one of their gearboxes being transported from pune to mumbai for P17a was damaged when the packaging material caught fire.
secondly the same type of gearbox(for LM2500) being transported to kochi for the ADS in one instance met with a truck accident. and this was after initially some mismatch was found between the design of the ship and the power-plant to gearbox coupling and rectified.

obviously the logistics of moving these high value long lead items need to improve substantially. giving it to the guy who transports sacks of rice is not on. I have seen gigantic wind turbine blades being transported around south india, perhaps there are cos who specialize in outsize and high value cargoes.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 20 Dec 2012 22:15

Excellent posts by everyone ... thats why we come to brf 8)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Katare » 21 Dec 2012 04:35

I think, NOPV are mainly for peace tome operations, training officers and sailors at high seas and at war time they will lord over commercial ships in sanitized areas.

P28 is similar displacement as OPVs but they are made for active war duties and specifically for submarine hunting.

Tragedy is that P28, the first truly world class Indian warship, is criminally behind the schedule. 4 of these were ordered in 2003, have we commissioned any yet?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Katare » 21 Dec 2012 04:41

Some uncooked radical thoughts. Since it costs too much and takes too long to build these large "Can-do-it-all" ships and we are not having much luck building numbers anyhow. Major ships with multitudes of sensors and weapons integrated densely manned by a large crew is tough, expansive and time consuming task in Indian environment. To solve this problem, and build a large navy, why can't India build dedicated missile attack and air defense boats of <1500 tons that can be paired with Frigates, destroyers and aircraft carriers for additional punch depending on the mission. How about doing some wild innovation, well that's how they start!!

Can we put 72 barak 1, 24 Barak 8, 4 CIWS on a ~1500 ton ship without any sensors, guns, and torpedoes? Highly specific design would mean very small crew is needed which would leave empty room for a big engine and extra fuel. All the weapons will be fired using sensors from mother ship? Can they put 16 Brahmos and 2 torpedo tubes and a helicopter on 1500 ton ship sensors to make another specific attack design? can we put 4-5 armed ASM helicopters without any sensors or weapons to make another module that can be added to principal ships.


Can a flotilla consisting of 1 Delhi, 2 P17s, 3 P28, 2 Diesel Submarine, 5 of these boats (2 air defense, 2 missile attack, 1 helicopter ship) and a replenishment tanker survive on its on in South China Sea in an extended petrol?

What if add another petrol party similar to the one described above but with an additional aircraft carrier, a nuclear sub and 10 of these boats?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 21 Dec 2012 05:57

^^^

Interesting ideas. All new ships are able to share radar/signals and control each others weapons (or at least provide the optimal use amongst each other). However, 1,500t is too small for any decent range. I would think it would need to be closer to 3,000t+ for power projection beyond IOR. Plus, IN would need many more replenishment tankers than it currently possesses.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 21 Dec 2012 06:21

tsarkar wrote:During wartime, they defend high value assets like frigates/destroyers/aircraft carriers from missile boats like Azmat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNS_Azmat

The 76 mm gun outrange the 23 mm light gun easily destroying their light hulls, while the AK-630 gives protection against missiles.

Inspite of the AK-630 to defend against missiles, it would still mean that the Azmat would be able to fire its C-802s before it gets within range of the 76mm gun of the OPV and hence would have the advantage.

INS Kolkata carries more BrahMos than there are ships in the Pakistani Navy.

:mrgreen:

The Kolkata class aside, I sometimes get the feeling that some IN ships are too lightly armed for their size. Biggest example being the Shivalik class carrying the same AShM load as the Talwar class despite being ~2000 tons heavier.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 21 Dec 2012 07:14

Excellent posts all round!

@ Nachiket:

The Kolkata class aside, I sometimes get the feeling that some IN ships are too lightly armed for their size. Biggest example being the Shivalik class carrying the same AShM load as the Talwar class despite being ~2000 tons heavier.


The number of heavy surface units opposing us is fairly minuscule. As tsarkar said, the INS Kolkata carries more BrahMos than the PN surface fleet. PLAN surface units will never be engaged by IN ships because they will be taken out by air strikes in the event of a foray into the IOR. Our most likely opponents are therefore PN subs, PLAN nuclear subs, and in the future, PLAN carrier based strike aircraft. That is way all indian built frigates/destroyers like the Shivalik carry 2 helos. Also, all future frigates/destroyers P15A, P15B, P17A will carry a comprehensive AEGIS like fleet air defence solution

@ tsarkar:

The 76 mm gun outrange the 23 mm light gun easily destroying their light hulls, while the AK-630 gives protection against missiles.

If required to undertake ASuW or ASW, they can embark a Seaking equipped with Radar + Sea Eagles or Dipping Sonar + Torpedoes.


I agree that the best ASuW/ASW solution is provided by a SeaKing equipped with the mission sensors/weapons. On that note, the question arises whether the helicopter hangar is large enough to embark a SeaKing? Or will the Chetak (or forthcoming 5 ton helicopter) be mandatory?

Additionally, as Nachiket pointed out, PN fast attack craft would have already fired off missiles at an NOPV screening IN frigates/destroyers. How good is the AK-630 in itself? It cannot deal with a saturation missile threat...after all, the need to have Barak-1/Barak-2 was driven by these very factors

I suspect that the NOPV will be existentially risking itself in a screening/missile trap role like HMS Coventry

Your thoughts please...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Dec 2012 07:31

is the sea eagle missile still in service with our sea kings or already retired and replaced with harpoon once the new medium naval heli deal is inked?
a good naval heli should be able to reach out 150km from the ship and release the harpoon from around 80km when going out for a targeted attack....but far slower than a 300km missile unleashed from the ship itself like the subsonic 3M54E1.


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