Indian Naval Discussion

titash
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 21 Dec 2012 07:45

I just thought of something...since a PN fast attack craft's ability to detect IN ships is limited by the radar horizon, we won't see a volley of missiles fired at ranges of > 20-25 nautical miles irrespective of the missile's range. The full potential of a missile is realized only when mid course updates (via maritime patrol aircraft/helicopter) are available.

This means, an NOPV with a airborne helicopter (or Ka-31 support) is going to be able to launch Kh-35/Harpoons at ranger > 50 nautical miles against unsupported PN fast attack craft...which means that an NOPV operating with support should be able to deal with all but massed airborne threats

I guess my conclusion is that the NOPV provides a useful supplementary helo/rotary UAV platform during wartime which effectively increases an accompanying frigate's ASW/ASuW punch

Ideas???

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 21 Dec 2012 08:33

The missile boats like azmat are a joke in today's warfare. They will be restricted to coastal defence and attempted hit and run on stationary targets. Why would you want to waste a Kh-35 on them? Would it be possible for Seaking or KA-31's to fire a few Hellfire or Helina and disable them. The missile boats hardly carry any SAM worthy of air defence.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nash » 21 Dec 2012 08:42

For ship like azmat we don't need to send any warship, but just a single air launched brahmos and aal izz well.

With Brahmos-1 and coming hypersonic version , i think in case of war we can sunk whole surface fleet of PN not in days but in few hours.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 21 Dec 2012 08:57

nash wrote:For ship like azmat we don't need to send any warship, but just a single air launched brahmos and aal izz well.

Brahmos and Klub are too valuable to waste on a little thing like an Azmat. A Sea Eagle fired from a Sea King or an Uran at the most should be enough.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 21 Dec 2012 09:04

titash wrote:PLAN surface units will never be engaged by IN ships because they will be taken out by air strikes in the event of a foray into the IOR.

Please read Vivek Ahuja's scenario in the scenarios thread. IAF Su-30's can't be everywhere and there are limits to how close aircraft like the P-8 can get to fire their Harpoons. The IN Mig-29's can carry the Kh-35 maybe but not a Klub/Brahmos. Besides, the Vik maybe in a different sector, so the Migs may not be available as well. PLAN surface ships will very much be the biggest targets of the Shivalik, Talwar and co.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Dec 2012 12:02

imo if air power is not available, PLAN capital ships are best targeted using HWT and Klubs from kilo subs and Exocets from Scorpene's.
ofcourse anything can be used if the formation is broken up and stragglers are isolated.

thats why most USN ships dont really bother much ASM except for a token 8 harpoon in the closet. they have enough subs and carrier punch to do the job.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 21 Dec 2012 12:36

Singha saar, USN has 11 mammoth carriers, each of which packs a bigger punch than 3 Vikramadityas. With that kind of airpower available, FFG's and DDG's are reduced to support and air-defense platforms. Kilos/Scorpenes have limited speed and range and IN has only a fraction of the airpower.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Dec 2012 13:33

true, but we dont have to search the entire IOR to locate the cheen ships. even without any discreet spotter reports from friendly govts, there are only 2-3 points between the indonesian islands from where a cheen fleet can sail from hainan and enter the IOR. our subs need just wait there in deep water south of indonesia and listen for calls from A&N based P8Is scouring the area......even on sonar the diff between the screws of a merchant ship and a warship should be evident as will be their sailing in a formation not in isolated ones like merchant ships. they will also avoid the merchant shipping lanes itself for fear of being found by india-friendly ships and reported.

the other thing is a cheen fleet is already in the coast of africa or in transit through IOR when the war starts. this I think they will cleverly arrange without letting the fleet commander know until after the war starts. but in reality war or peace such a cheen fleet will be monitored by both our LRMP and subs.

only Cheen nuclear submarines of the 093 class will be a real threat. they can pass undetected through indonesia, outrun SSKs easily, we dont have SOSUS or a surfeit of LRMP / ASW escort ships...we need to be careful on that count. no doubt with russian help they have been fitted with klubs.

one glaring weakness of Cheen ships is ASW , they are focussing heavily on AAW. they probably wouldnt have a clue if a line of 3 kilos sitting quietly below some salinity layer unleashed a spread of 9 heavy torpedoes , cut the wires and let them run active. decamping to a safe spot before following up with 2 klubs each to mop up.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 21 Dec 2012 14:21

How about Brahmos from Andaman.

Or just stationing a 3-4 Bhalus or 8-10 Su30MKI/Mig29Kub with Brahmos on Andaman

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Dec 2012 14:51

IOR is a big ocean birader, just take a look at the area between India and the antarctic...bigger than the atlantic and mostly very deep with few volcanic islands.

thats a lot of ocean for a strike group to disappear into. fortunately our SSBNs can also lurk there with zero chokepoints unlike the cheen SSBNs from sanya and elsewhere.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vishvak » 21 Dec 2012 16:14

It should be a regular feature to have long trips of patrol boats from shores of India to other countries connected by shores at the minimum.
Last edited by vishvak on 21 Dec 2012 23:10, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 21 Dec 2012 16:30

^^ The Chakra might just be having a leisurely cruise along those places right now and checking out the points the Arihant will have have to loiter along in!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 21 Dec 2012 20:05

@ Nachiket,

Sirjee, I agree IAF Sukhois can't be everywhere; they'll be heavily engaged in the north east/kashmir. However, within a decade, the IN will have over 100+ fighter aircraft comprising Mig-29K/LCA MK-II and perhaps Rafale-M/JSF. This is a more potent force than the air forces of many countries, and a far cry from what we can put together today

Any PLAN surface units will face air strikes from IN carrier aircraft, A&N based IN aircraft, P8-I (of which speculations range from 24-30 aircraft) and as Singha described...our SSK/SSN fleet. Our frigates/destroyers have very little chance of being engaged. Of course this assumes a fight in the IOR. Going to the south china sea, within PLAN AF bomber range is another affair entirely

Also, if there are are any tactical objectives that the PLAN wishes to accomplish, it must be in the northern IOR (where alas, it will be under threat). After all, how is a PLAN fleet south of Diego Garcia have any bearing on hostilities? Air Power is inherently more flexible and IN/IAF can redeploy to the anti shipping role much faster than a PLAN fleet can redeploy from the northern IOR to southern IOR

Also,
A Kh-35 strike is more than enough to disable a PLAN frigate/destroyer. You don't have to "BrahMos-it" and blow the thing to pieces. Simply crippling the bridge/starting a large fire is enough to take that ship out of the ORBAT. More so for small PN fast attack craft.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hnair » 22 Dec 2012 00:23

er, why waste any missiles on azmat type of boats? Just drop a cheap iron bomb with an LGB kit screwed on, from high altitude. Buggers wont know whether India hit them or one of their own went green.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 22 Dec 2012 07:29

@ hnair

Are LGB effective against moving targets? Its one thing to target static bridges from a high flying aircraft and quite another to bomb maneuvering ships. After all, high flying aircraft are easily detected by radar

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 22 Dec 2012 07:38

Need something like Hellfire-XL or Helina-LR with 30-45 km range and heli portable.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 22 Dec 2012 07:49

in the first iraq war an allied pilot dropped a LGB on a helicopter if I remember right
No link to this, So if an iron bomb can take out a rotary wing bird I am pretty sure it can take out a surface ship.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Dec 2012 09:06

Usmc seacobras mount the hellfire for such a anti fac role iirc.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vipul » 22 Dec 2012 20:20

Navy receives warship INS Saryu from GSL.

The indigenously designed new 105 metre-class warship, INS Saryu was on Friday handed over to the Indian Navy by the Goa Shipyards Limited (GSL).



INS Saryu would be the largest offshore patrol vessel to be operated by the force.

"The warship was handed over by GSL Chairman Rear Admiral (Retd) Vineet Bakhshi to Commander Amanpreet Singh-- the CO-designate of INS SARYU in a simple ceremony in Goa," the shipyard said in a release.

The Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV) will help meet the increasing requirement of the Navy for undertaking ocean surveillance and surface warfare operations in order to prevent infiltration and transgression of maritime sovereignty, it said.

The warship was one of the vessels ordered by the Defence Ministry after the 26/11 attack in Mumbai in 2008.

This vessel is suitable for monitoring sea lines of communication, defence of offshore oil installations and other critical offshore national assets, the release said.

It can also be deployed for escorting high value ships and fleet-support operations, it said. Designed and built by GSL, the warship is the culmination of many years of in-house design development and ship build techniques.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23364 » 22 Dec 2012 20:38

The Saryu class are 2200 tons,105M stealth (or atleast radar signature reduced) shaped ships. The propulsion systems are good enough for a respectable 25+ knots sustained speed. But they are tasked as patrol vessels and armed with a 76mm gun. With a 6000nm range, where are they going to patrol? Mumbai to Porbandar? If so, fine. Case closed. Dvora/Super Dvora/FAC class boats are enough for that, right? And this is Coast Guard territory, not IN.

If not, and they are asked to patrol South China sea/Arabian Sea, which is expected with their tonnage and range, what will they do in a hostile environment? Especially facing a enemy with AsHM missiles, submarines with torpedoes and patrol aircraft. Sneak up to 2 kms of an enemy ship/submarine and fire with the 76 mm gun? Call INS Kolkata for help? If these ships are part of a flotilla/battle group, what value will they provide to the group with no ASW,AA or AsHM capability? They will be a weak point of the flotilla.

If there is a logic of cost to not arm them, it still does not make sense. You are spending 500+ crores/ship to get a good capable platform but not putting any teeth on it? . And you are making 9 ships of this class, which works out to 5000 crores.Why? It is better to make a 1000-1500 ton boat with less capex and put a ASW or AsHM capability on it like the Tarantul class. An advanced Tarantul class if you like, and you build 8 fully armed corvettes, which can kick ass, for that money. And yes, their opex will not be less either with 16 officers and 100+ sailors. So, what are you saving money on? And last i checked, accountants were not running IN.

Something somewhere does not makes sense. The Saryu class is almost like a Class 12 student wearing half pants, half sleeve shirt with a water bottle round his neck and sucking a lollipop. This is not what Class 12 students are expected to wear/behave.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 22 Dec 2012 22:33

Without adequate air cover Tarantul class cannot operate in hostile territory, since P-3s or Su-30s will make quick work out of them. China has Taiwan Strait where its missile boats can be very effective while operating under PLAAF air cover we don't have that luxury. If you throw in Air defense systems, radar etc on corvette (P-28 on steriods) you end up with mini Talwar that costs almost the same and 5 times as much as NOPV ...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 22 Dec 2012 22:54

The NOPV need not carry all the sensors but if it has TAS and 324 mm TT then it can be used for ASW in conjunction with P-28/Talwar/P-17. If it can carry 4-8 Urans then they can be guided by other ships or Helis

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 22 Dec 2012 23:22

Guru_Tat wrote:...Something somewhere does not makes sense...
Indeed...now, who was Sita?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 22 Dec 2012 23:26

Bheeshma wrote:The NOPV need not carry all the sensors but if it has TAS and 324 mm TT then it can be used for ASW in conjunction with P-28/Talwar/P-17. If it can carry 4-8 Urans then they can be guided by other ships or Helis

Any helo operating from NOPV can deploy Uran and Uran requires launch platform to provide targeting information.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 23 Dec 2012 02:12

Except it can only carry 1-2 unlike 8 cell in a ship

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby neeraj » 23 Dec 2012 05:52

INS Saryu - commissioned 21st Dec
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby RamaY » 23 Dec 2012 06:18

Isn't INS Sarayu sold to sri Lanka?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 23 Dec 2012 07:22

Bheeshma wrote:Except it can only carry 1-2 unlike 8 cell in a ship

Yes but that is only way you will ever get Uran's on Saryu in war time situation. Perhaps deploy ATGM like Spike? Israel has deployed them in its naval vessels to counter any Hizb. gun boats.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 23 Dec 2012 07:39


John
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 23 Dec 2012 08:23

^ Just a warning I would stay away from clicking those links, got ton of virus alerts.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 23 Dec 2012 18:52

Nuke sub Chakra facing problems with critical components: Navy

NEW DELHI: India's only Russian-origin nuclear submarineINS Chakra is facing problems with its critical components affecting its operational readiness.

The 8,000-tonne submarine has been facing problems with its critical components and Russia has been asked to provide the parts for the vessel which need to be replaced, Navy sources told here.

However, they did not divulge the components which would have to be replaced but indicated they are critical for the operations of the submarine.

India had inducted the Akula-II Class 'Nerpa' nuclear submarine in its inventory in April this year at the Vishakhapatnam-based Eastern Naval Command. It was renamed 'Chakra' by the Indian Navy.

The Russian submarine had met with an accident in November 2008 when it was undergoing sea trials in the Sea of Japan in which around twenty sailors were killed and several others were left injured.

The submarine was launched in 1993-94 but its construction was held up since then due to lack of funds with the Russian Navy.

However, in 2004, the Russian side decided to build it after reaching a ten-year lease agreement for operation of the submarine with the Indian side.

With INS Chakra and the yet-to-be-inducted indigenously built INS Arihant, India is planning to have two nuclear submarines guarding its vast maritime boundary.

With a maximum speed of 30 knots, Chakra can go to a depth of 600 metres and has an endurance of 100 days with a crew of 73. However, as per the lease accord, it cannot carry nuclear warheads.

The vessel is armed with four 533mm and four 650mm torpedo tubes.

India had leased and operated a Charlie-class Russian nuclear submarine, also called 'Chakra', in 1988 for training its personnel on such submarines.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23364 » 23 Dec 2012 20:59

@Titash

The release from the Office of the Navy Chief reads "monitoring sea lines of communication, defence of offshore oil installations and other critical offshore national assets, the release said." as the Saryu class ships primary responsibilities.

Do you really need radar signature reduction, 25+ knot top speed, 2200 ton displacement and a 6000-8000nm range in a ship to fulfill the above objectives when all you are using for protection is a 76mm gun?

The point of my earlier post was very simple. If you are making a substantial investment in a 2200 ton 105M long ship fast ship with stealth features and a 125+ crew, why not arm it suitably? Put a LR-SAM battery on it or a 2X2 533mm torpedoes or a quadruple Kh-35 Uran launcher on it along with related sensors for an incremental cost and give it some teeth.

Globally ships of this size carry substantially more offensive equipment, we need to find our own sweet spot in terms of arming them and cost, not e-masculating them.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 23 Dec 2012 21:13

For one, none of these weapons come by themselves. They will need heavy and costly sensors and trained personnel to operate them. That's like making it into a small corvette.
Also, it may be offensive to deploy a ship with that capability in some situations.

Since it can have a chopper, it can be armed with suitable offensive weapons too.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 23 Dec 2012 21:26

Guru_Tat wrote:substantial investment in a 2200 ton 105M long ship
You missed the earlier discussion on this. Sensors & Weapons are more expensive than Machinery & Hull. To add the former, one may end up spending twice the cost of the latter.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 24 Dec 2012 00:35

Tsarkarji, what are various sensors required to equip such a boat with the minimum asuw capability? I am talking about rbu6000 and lwt torpedo system?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 24 Dec 2012 02:56

@ Guru_Tat

As tsarkar said, the sensors & weapons are the most expensive part of a ship. The size, speed, endurance, and helicopter capability are the required minimum investments to prosecute somali pirates and perform SAR. Adding sensors, SSM, SAM would quadruple the cost.

I was originally questioning the need for Stealth Features + 76mm + AK-630 whereas a Sukanya design might have worked just as well. I am now coming around to the thought process that it may simply mean that putting a 76mm + AK-630 provides an added margin of survivability for practically no cost (after all, guns are the cheapest naval weapons; I also assume a cheap EO ball is incorporated). Ditto for the Stealth Features, may have an initial design expense but not increased manufacturing costs versus the Sukanyas

In case additional platforms are needed and the Saryu needs to operate in a true naval role, then its embarked helicopter (and it should really be capable of embarking a SeaKing) will provide the ASW or AShW punch to a task force/concoy escort

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Katare » 24 Dec 2012 04:00

I think 6000 NM range is actually denoting the endurance of the ship. It'll not operate more than a few hundred nautical miles away from the shores. Although It could cover several thousand square miles during each patrol trip. It could also provide months long 'at the station" endurance.

It is not a warship!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Dec 2012 07:57

its more suited than Sukanya class to first cross the indian ocean and then do coastal and island patrolling. even if its role therein is not high threat, you still need a big, fast and stable ship to reach that far and maintain time on station.

far better than devoting a P28 or bigger to that role.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby suryag » 24 Dec 2012 13:04

Nuke sub Chakra is facing spares problems because the Indian submariners do not know how to use them :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 24 Dec 2012 18:43

Wokay.

GSL has released a picture of the INS Saryu.

http://www.goashipyard.co.in/control/fi ... U.jpg.jpeg


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