Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Apr 2013 09:11

Unannounced blockade yeah kya cheez hai ....the last time IN managed to get close to such a thing was after Parliament attack when they went into action mode and ships as we know from IN statements were ready to strike from multiple directions on pakistani ports .....ofcourse PN ships were left stranded and slow to react at they didnt anticipate such a move since PA did not take into confidence the other service as usual like kargil ,ofcourse after 26/11 the PN were quickly out at sea within 24 hours.

Ofcourse IN ships came back after things as anticipated cooled after months of deployment and the terrible fear that the blockade left on the leadership of PA was truly felt by Indian public when some year later they responded in kind by 26/11 using the reliable and patrolled by IN and ICG arabian sea route and many bomb blast that followed before that period and after it...... ofcourse in anticipation of the same fear that PA would go through Indian leadership in kind did not go for a blockade of Paki ports.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Apr 2013 09:22

in WW2 era battleships in films used to be large hall type areas for crew sleeping not on bunks but hammocks. not sure if its a hollywood invention or real world.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby abhik » 22 Apr 2013 09:36

BTW doesn't a blockade cross the paki nuclear red line?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Apr 2013 09:39

Does PA Rawalpindi have a website with FAQ on what constitutes Red Line in first place that should clarify things a bit ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby KrishnaK » 22 Apr 2013 10:37

I believe Lt. Gen. Kidwai of the SPD had mentioned that a blockade would be treated as crossing redlines. What VivS is trying to say is: it's the navy's job to provide the ability and the politicos to decide on what will actually be done. The Pakis also thought they could pull off Kargil, but that didn't stop us from retaliating and proving a war could be fought under the ambit of nuclear weapons.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Viv S » 22 Apr 2013 12:25

abhik wrote:BTW doesn't a blockade cross the paki nuclear red line?

Austin wrote:The last time such a thought went passed like a fast meteor flashes the earth was after 1992 Mumbai blast when PVN govt was contemplating blockade against PN only to be wisely told such a blockade would result in war , since then we have only seen Ships from Pakistan have only visited Mumbai and Ratnagiri with arms .....no blockade



We're discussing an act of military brinkmanship. Of course there's good chance it may result in war. For that matter even mobilizing the army could result in war; the other side might view it as an impending attack (eg. Op Brasstacks '87) and resort to a pre-emptive strike. A military blockade is the next step up the escalatory chain.

A blockade achieves two objectives that a general mobilization or an air strike (as proposed by Eklavya) don't.

Firstly, the strategic pressure applied through a military mobilization plateaus once the military is completely mobilized. The pressure applied through a blockade on the other hand is constantly on the rise.

Secondly, an airstrike on Karachi will almost certainly result in heavy civilian casualties. The govt of neither country is equipped to handle that sort of political pressure. Islamabad may be forced to retaliate with general war commencing thereafter. And in the event that they exercise restraint, it leaves New Delhi in the same position as before, except with pictures of numerous dead civilians to explain. A naval blockade in contrast is inherently bloodless, low profile and highly effective. And since the Pakistani economy can shrug it off a couple of days before it really starts to hurt, it discourages a knee-jerk response.

Just as importantly it allows the Indian govt to retain the initiative while giving the Pakistani establishment is long (albeit narrowing) window of time, to decide what sort of response they can realistically afford.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Apr 2013 13:34

Well we can discuss what ever we want to and these are more appropriate for scenario thread.

The reality is there wont be any blockade or brinkmanship or any such cool things , if events in past 20 years did not convince us of it , I am not sure what else will.

It really does not matter in the end if the Politican or Navy or RAW or IB fails ...in the end India fails and on every occasion citizen of this country paid with their blood.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Apr 2013 13:52

Russia, India sign agreement on military exchange

Russia and India have signed an agreement on training Indian deck-based aircraft pilots, Sergei Korotkov, head of the Russian aircraft corporation MiG, told reporters on Sunday.

The agreement stipulates Russian pilots training their Indian colleagues who will fly on board Russia’s MiG-29K/KUB fighter jets.

The training will consist of two stages, with the first one due to start in Russia two months ahead of the departure of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier set to be handed to the Indian navy before the end of this year. The second stage will be held on Russian territory.

Earlier this year, India received 20 MiG-29K/KUB fighters from Russia.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 22 Apr 2013 14:52

Snehashis wrote:Arihant surfaced! Well on a tablo.

Hull diameter and length looks a bit larger than Akula and also looks like it has a twin shaft.


It's an Oscar SSGN :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Viv S » 22 Apr 2013 16:55

Austin wrote:Well we can discuss what ever we want to and these are more appropriate for scenario thread.

The reality is there wont be any blockade or brinkmanship or any such cool things , if events in past 20 years did not convince us of it , I am not sure what else will.

It really does not matter in the end if the Politican or Navy or RAW or IB fails ...in the end India fails and on every occasion citizen of this country paid with their blood.


The debate was about the merits of a submarine centric navy versus those of carrier centric one, in the Indian context. But if your assertion is that the prospect of a war itself is non-starter, well... then that makes most debates on military related threads redundant. No point in quibbling over the Arjun and T-90, or the C-17 and IL-476, when you have attached a rider that they will never employed.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Apr 2013 18:10

Viv S wrote:But if your assertion is that the prospect of a war itself is non-starter, well... then that makes most debates on military related threads redundant. No point in quibbling over the Arjun and T-90, or the C-17 and IL-476, when you have attached a rider that they will never employed.


I agree the prospect of war is remote to non-existant both Chidambaram has mentioned wrt Pakistan and NSA wrt to China ...more than the talks action speaks louder than words and all action since past 20 years have shown inspite of grave provocation and even what would constitute an act of war by hostile county GOI did not react and simply mellowed down or pussy footed , either under foreign pressure or their own lack of will and no one was ever held accountable or punished for acts or ommision for all the violence the country has experience in past 20 years except creating more body bags for unfortunate indians who get caught up in it.

I doubt such facts would deter any body to discuss on War Scenario or what this tank or that aircraft can do ... it is fun and it gives thrill plus alternate reality

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 22 Apr 2013 20:41

Great video of P-8Is weapon testing program. Damn it, they did the whole thing in 7 months!!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Apr 2013 20:46

good find that. US test infra and exp is second to none. the sharp end of the spear....we could use 16 more of these big beasts.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Apr 2013 21:10

Nice video the aircraft look spanking shiny with good build quality. Do they plan to integrate Brahmos or Klub with P-8I ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Viv S » 23 Apr 2013 00:02

Austin wrote:Nice video the aircraft look spanking shiny with good build quality. Do they plan to integrate Brahmos or Klub with P-8I ?


Harpoons only. The Klub doesn't have a air launched variant and the Brahmos is probably too big for the P-8I.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby suryag » 23 Apr 2013 02:13

Can it be used as a bomb truck?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 23 Apr 2013 07:31

suryag wrote:Can it be used as a bomb truck?


If you see from the video it drops Quickstrike training mines from its wing pylons, and those are very similar to the Mk.82 Snakeeyes. But to be a bomb truck similar to a dedicated bomber would require some mods to the internal weapons bay etc. and that is certainly within Indian jugaad - whether it will fall afoul of some end user agreements we have signed is another question.

But anyway you look at it, it's a beast, and ours has a MAD unlike the USN one which has created quite a lot of heartburn in their P8A community :!:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Surya » 23 Apr 2013 07:37

But anyway you look at it, it's a beast, and ours has a MAD unlike the USN one which has created quite a lot of heartburn in their P8A community


any links for that info

thanks in advance

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 23 Apr 2013 07:56

Surya wrote:
But anyway you look at it, it's a beast, and ours has a MAD unlike the USN one which has created quite a lot of heartburn in their P8A community


any links for that info

thanks in advance


Hain Ji joo are supposed to be on top of these sort of things no? :mrgreen:

http://idp.justthe80.com/naval-projects ... rcraft-mma

1.An upgraded Raytheon APS137 Maritime Surveillance Radar designated AN/APY-10 with 240 degrees forward coverage.
2.Telephonics APS-143C(V)3 Multi-Mode Radar (MMR) for aft coverage. The radar is also fitted on aircraft such as the USCG HC-144A Maritime Patrol Aircraft, and HU-25D Falcon Jet. The APS-143 is featured on most international S-70 Naval Hawk helicopters and certain NH-90, Super Lynx and other Maritime Helicopters. The forward and aft radars will together give the Neptune a 360° surveillance capability against airborne targets.
3.Electro-optical / infrared sensors from Northrop Grumman's Electronic Systems
4.A rotary internal re loadable pneumatically controlled sonobuoy launcher.
5.Canadian firm CAE's AN/ASQ-508A Advanced Integrated Magnetic Anomaly Detection (MAD) System.
6.SIGINT equipment.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 23 Apr 2013 07:58

Surya wrote:
But anyway you look at it, it's a beast, and ours has a MAD unlike the USN one which has created quite a lot of heartburn in their P8A community


any links for that info

thanks in advance


That ours has a MAD? Or the Heartburn ? :)

EDIT: Hail BR crowdsourcing!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 23 Apr 2013 08:00

Austin wrote:Nice video the aircraft look spanking shiny with good build quality. Do they plan to integrate Brahmos or Klub with P-8I ?


Saar I sincerely doubt that that the airframe will be able to handle the sheer weight of brahmos without extensive mods and also it will limit other payload options big time.

I personally reckon a payload of 4 Blk II 250KM Harpoons with the ability to carry some jdams and or air launched torps would be better than slinging two brahmos.

Also in terms of utility the biggest advantage P8I brings is sensors, sensors and sensors reckon between the IAF and IN we can get enough shooters into the box we need sensors to identify and track...JMT

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 23 Apr 2013 08:01

RajitO wrote:
suryag wrote:Can it be used as a bomb truck?


If you see from the video it drops Quickstrike training mines from its wing pylons, and those are very similar to the Mk.82 Snakeeyes. But to be a bomb truck similar to a dedicated bomber would require some mods to the internal weapons bay etc. and that is certainly within Indian jugaad - whether it will fall afoul of some end user agreements we have signed is another question.

But anyway you look at it, it's a beast, and ours has a MAD unlike the USN one which has created quite a lot of heartburn in their P8A community :!:


The nose of those looks very very similar to the nose of a LJDAM to me.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 23 Apr 2013 08:37

Austin wrote:Russia, India sign agreement on military exchange

Russia and India have signed an agreement on training Indian deck-based aircraft pilots, Sergei Korotkov, head of the Russian aircraft corporation MiG, told reporters on Sunday.

The agreement stipulates Russian pilots training their Indian colleagues who will fly on board Russia’s MiG-29K/KUB fighter jets.

The training will consist of two stages, with the first one due to start in Russia two months ahead of the departure of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier set to be handed to the Indian navy before the end of this year. The second stage will be held on Russian territory.

Earlier this year, India received 20 MiG-29K/KUB fighters from Russia.


where is the exchange in this? I see it as just a one-way training contract.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 23 Apr 2013 08:41

suryag wrote:Can it be used as a bomb truck?


why would you use something so specialised and something that is required for a special set of tasks that the IN desperately needs platforms for, for something like just dropping bombs? There are plenty of other assets that can do that job, but none other than the MR platforms that can do the job of the P-8I.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pragnya » 23 Apr 2013 09:00

Kartik wrote:
suryag wrote:Can it be used as a bomb truck?


why would you use something so specialised and something that is required for a special set of tasks that the IN desperately needs platforms for, for something like just dropping bombs? There are plenty of other assets that can do that job, but none other than the MR platforms that can do the job of the P-8I.


Image

IAF’s Innovative use of Transporters as Heavy Bombers

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 23 Apr 2013 09:29

IMHO India should invest in jet-powered strategic bombers. And I mean bomb trucks, not the Su-30s. Simple, cheap, docile, but fast (800 kmph fast).

P.S. I know this has been discussed to death here. I just needed to get it out of my system once. :-o

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 23 Apr 2013 09:38

Kartik wrote:
suryag wrote:Can it be used as a bomb truck?


why would you use something so specialised and something that is required for a special set of tasks that the IN desperately needs platforms for, for something like just dropping bombs? There are plenty of other assets that can do that job, but none other than the MR platforms that can do the job of the P-8I.


Because as the An-32 and before this the An-12 examples show, our lack of a dedicated bomber fleet forces us to do jugaad. The P-8I will always be used primarily for the specialized roles intended, but never hurts to have a Plan B, C, or D.

andy B wrote:Also in terms of utility the biggest advantage P8I brings is sensors, sensors and sensors reckon between the IAF and IN we can get enough shooters into the box we need sensors to identify and track...JMT


And Speed. It brings a much faster time to transit to its mission area which is/was a big problem with the turboprop MPAs. With a surveillance target to prosecute the time elapsed from the last known datum is a killer variable that throws the search equation for a loop.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 23 Apr 2013 09:44

indranilroy wrote:IMHO India should invest in jet-powered strategic bombers. And I mean bomb trucks, not the Su-30s. Simple, cheap, docile, but fast (800 kmph fast).

P.S. I know this has been discussed to death here. I just needed to get it out of my system once. :-o


Well, would you like a milkshake and some fries with that?

Name me one strategic system that is also simple and cheap and you can have the keys to the city.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 23 Apr 2013 09:59

RajitO wrote:Because as the An-32 and before this the An-12 examples show, our lack of a dedicated bomber fleet forces us to do jugaad. The P-8I will always be used primarily for the specialized roles intended, but never hurts to have a Plan B, C, or D.


you're comparing a simple transport with a specialised maritime recon platform. The An-32 can still perform that task and are far more numerous in number than the P-8I, which performs a specialised role that is desperately needed and even for that, the existing numbers of P-8I on order are less.

There is no need for diluting the specialisation of the P-8I crew by introducing new roles that other crew can take on. Nor is there any need to add weight to the P-8I by introducing any onboard changes to perform even a rudimentary bomb truck role.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 23 Apr 2013 10:29

Kartik wrote:
RajitO wrote:Because as the An-32 and before this the An-12 examples show, our lack of a dedicated bomber fleet forces us to do jugaad. The P-8I will always be used primarily for the specialized roles intended, but never hurts to have a Plan B, C, or D.


you're comparing a simple transport with a specialised maritime recon platform. The An-32 can still perform that task and are far more numerous in number than the P-8I, which performs a specialised role that is desperately needed and even for that, the existing numbers of P-8I on order are less.

There is no need for diluting the specialisation of the P-8I crew by introducing new roles that other crew can take on. Nor is there any need to add weight to the P-8I by introducing any onboard changes to perform even a rudimentary bomb truck role.


One is not comparing anything but drawing a parallel...a matter of nuance not semantics.

When even the once mighty but now cash-crunched Americans are trying to squeeze in a ground attack capability in the "Air Dominance" F-22, do you think the thought will not cross the IN's mind as to how to squeeze a platform for all it's worth? Especially since "those An-32s" will not be under their control and tasking.

To repeat, any speculative changes to the P-8I to perform a bomb truck, rudimentary or advanced, will most probably run into end user monitoring issues with the US, as will wiring it for Brahmos and other non-standard weapon integration.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby dinesha » 23 Apr 2013 12:14


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 23 Apr 2013 12:38

dinesha wrote:VIDEO:P-8I Completes Testing
http://www.boeing.com/Features/2013/04/ ... 17_13.html


Nice! Too bad someone beat you to it - see previous page :twisted:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby suryag » 23 Apr 2013 12:47

and the test lead in that video

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 23 Apr 2013 12:59

RajitO wrote:
And Speed. It brings a much faster time to transit to its mission area which is/was a big problem with the turboprop MPAs. With a surveillance target to prosecute the time elapsed from the last known datum is a killer variable that throws the search equation for a loop.


Just to be clear I left the speed component out for the IN as that advantage does not apply given that the maritime bears have a high sub sonic cruising speed already. The speed advantage is more prominent when compared to the P3. Again JMT ofcourse.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Apr 2013 13:11

speaking of P3, 100s of USN P3 will be retired next few yrs as P8A hits full rate production.

the Munna will be wanting to cheaply get more P3 with harpoons to be more of a local pest.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 23 Apr 2013 13:26

From the video, we see the P-8I dropping a bomb, I wonder which one, looks like one of the GBU or JDAM family. Didn't know it could drop this weapon, very nice addition. Would be awesome to order more of these birds, I would say an eventual fleet of around 36-48 would be incredible, where around 12 can be used for defence of our waters while the remaining 24 to 36 used for offensive use + control of Indian ocean.

I also think its a great Mini Brahmos/ Nirbhay candidate.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nishu » 23 Apr 2013 13:41

Hi Guys
I have small questions on the flight testing program .
1) When they decided to mount weapons on wings they should have already created a flight test program to test it , Now why are they saying that it's all of a sudden they decided to test it and created a program .

2) Since they know they have to test weapons drop from wings that too from a commercial derivative aircraft Why were there any Qualified people to test this .
“We only have a few people left who have done store drops from an aircraft and they were fighters.”
.

If their were few people why dint they hire more . Why did they think that they can make do with the present team when none were qualified .

3 ) If the aircraft was untested in all these areas how come IAF ordered it , Is it because its American and they can test it's all performance indicators ? .

5) If this can be taken as a base to judge IAF then why dint it order LCA .

I hope i was able to convey my point as at this time i am myself got confused what i asked :D .

Edit : To those grammar Nazis please don't mind my english .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 23 Apr 2013 14:23

Septimus P. wrote:From the video, we see the P-8I dropping a bomb, I wonder which one, looks like one of the GBU or JDAM family. Didn't know it could drop this weapon, very nice addition. Would be awesome to order more of these birds, I would say an eventual fleet of around 36-48 would be incredible, where around 12 can be used for defence of our waters while the remaining 24 to 36 used for offensive use + control of Indian ocean.

I also think its a great Mini Brahmos/ Nirbhay candidate.


:-? As mentioned earlier that is a Mk 65 Quickstrike mine, its inert training round cousin to be more accurate.

As for integrating one's favorite wishlist weapon with it, getting around US end-user monitoring will be interesting, but hey there's a first time for everything!
Last edited by member_23455 on 23 Apr 2013 15:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 23 Apr 2013 14:25

nishu wrote:Hi Guys
I have small questions on the flight testing program .
1) When they decided to mount weapons on wings they should have already created a flight test program to test it , Now why are they saying that it's all of a sudden they decided to test it and created a program .

2) Since they know they have to test weapons drop from wings that too from a commercial derivative aircraft Why were there any Qualified people to test this .
“We only have a few people left who have done store drops from an aircraft and they were fighters.”
.

If their were few people why dint they hire more . Why did they think that they can make do with the present team when none were qualified .

3 ) If the aircraft was untested in all these areas how come IAF ordered it , Is it because its American and they can test it's all performance indicators ? .

5) If this can be taken as a base to judge IAF then why dint it order LCA .

I hope i was able to convey my point as at this time i am myself got confused what i asked :D .

Edit : To those grammar Nazis please don't mind my english .


I think your grammar may be the least of your worries here... :shock:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nishu » 23 Apr 2013 14:42

Sorry Rajitho Sirvadu ,
Can you please tell me why ?.


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