Indian Naval Discussion

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 14 May 2013 10:19

Nick_S wrote:
sohamn wrote:Has there been any research been done to check the feasibility of converting Mig29K to a CATOBAR fighter?
IIRC, Soviets were initially considering CATOBAR carriers (1970s/80s) and also built a land based CAT facility. So yeah, there probably has been some research of that sort but there's like zero chance of developing it.

The reason I asked is because I think the only change required will be a modified front landing gear to handle the stress of a catapult launch. And if this is the case then N-LCA should be also be possibly converted into a CATOBAR fighter. This would be necessary if we want a high degree of interoperability of fighters between Vikrant and Vishal. Otherwise, we need to buy a whole fleet of Rafale which would be very expensive.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 14 May 2013 11:07

IAC-2 's tonnage itself is up in the air right now. It makes little sense to have a 60K tonne ship if it can just operate more aircraft but is not able to operate heavier aircraft - AWACS, MRPA, tanker derivatives.

EMALS will no longer be futuristic in 2025, though the US might be the only people with proven technology, (maybe more willing to share it around in that timeframe). EMALS is also a great weight and volume saver - space that can be used to carry more/larger aircraft.

The only ambition we should steer clear of IMO is a N-power vessel. Too many things being done the first time, and a new propulsion system -regardless of the SSBN learning - might get us into an LCA/Kaveri redux.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 May 2013 11:35

I had been inside a Ka-31 AEW and was briefed by the pilots who were manning in , my first impression is this baby is just designed to do dedicated AEW role , there is no space inside the chopper but its fully loaded with electronics in rugged structures , Was surprised to see lot of shiny LCD in cockpit , I was expecting many analog instruments but the analog seems just backup.

I found a lot of empty space in there which can accommodate atleast 50 % more electronics stuff then what it carries now ,i was told that is for future upgrade etc.

This thing is capable of detecting targets between 400-500 km depending on the height it is flying and pass it on to Talwar class frigate , now from the video posted IN Mig-29K can receive data from Ka-31 in real time so it should be a real boon to the fighter aircraft on CAP mission , since this can see far far beyond what the Mig-29 Zhuk-M radar can see.

The only draw back i see is its short airborne time of 3 hours plus , may be if they can do refuelling on this and increase the onstation time to double the amount that it can do now it would be great.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 14 May 2013 11:45

US Navy targets aviation history with carrier drone launch

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 043071.cms

WASHINGTON: The US Navy plans to make aviation history on Tuesday by catapulting an unmanned jet off an aircraft carrier for the first time, testing a long-range, stealthy, bat-winged plane that represents a jump forward in drone technology.

The X-47B, which can carry the equivalent of two precision-guided bombs and fly 2,000 nautical miles in one trip, is due to take off from the USS George H. W. Bush in the Atlantic using the same sling-shot system that sends manned aircraft aloft from the short runways aboard aircraft carriers.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 May 2013 12:14

if we go hawkeye - will that be compatible with the iaf phalcons - data integration wise? i.e. could we establish full coverage all across the pak coast using the in and iaf assets?

maz · Post by **maz** » 14 May 2013 14:06

Yes, the major drawbacks are the range and endurance limitations of KM31. Hawkeye will remedy that along with powerful onboard processing capability.

maz · Post by **maz** » 14 May 2013 14:07

Nice write up on navair by Cdre Rai

http://iduanalysis.com/gaurding-the-air ... n-11th-may

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 14 May 2013 15:11

srai wrote:
SagarAg wrote:Looks operational. Its built for testing N-LCA right??

Most likely it will also be used by MiG-29K pilots for carrier landing practice.

But why exactly has it been built facing a mountain?

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 14 May 2013 16:41

aditp wrote:

But why exactly has it been built facing a mountain?

It has not been built facing a mountain. Rather if you look at the topography of the area, the angle of the photo suggests that the mountain is actually that island of Mortar Island (most probable candidate) or Grand Island, which are about 3-4 km away.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 14 May 2013 22:25

nik wrote:Rafale M = 90 million vs. Mig-29 = 30 million plus spares commonality and 10 years maintenance experience.
Indian navy better think a hundred times before dreaming of Rafale M and getting cockeyed like IAF is now.

I am sure Indian Air Force has 30+ years of exp maintaining MIg-21's, may be we should be looking to buy those for our navy if Russia is willing to make a naval version of Mig-21.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 14 May 2013 23:48

maz wrote:Yes, the major drawbacks are the range and endurance limitations of KM31. Hawkeye will remedy that along with powerful onboard processing capability.

The KM 31 platform is great..No doubt about it. Wonder how much improvement in range and endurance can be achieved if the radar is replaced by smaller Desi AESA derivative from our AWACS project.

Don't like the small screens for mission control/co-pilot station. It's a heavy workload monitoring 400~500 KM airspace and seems like the operator will be mostly monitoring health of the radar systems. All major action will be done on-board the Talwars via datalink.

maz · Post by **maz** » 14 May 2013 23:48

rajsunder, surely u are joking when u speak of a naval Mig21??

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 15 May 2013 00:00

rajsunder wrote:
nik wrote:Rafale M = 90 million vs. Mig-29 = 30 million plus spares commonality and 10 years maintenance experience.
Indian navy better think a hundred times before dreaming of Rafale M and getting cockeyed like IAF is now.
I am sure Indian Air Force has 30+ years of exp maintaining MIg-21's, may be we should be looking to buy those for our navy if Russia is willing to make a naval version of Mig-21.

FYI...Mig 21 is a second generation fighter, Mig-29 is 4th generation and Rafale M is 4.5 generation.

Main difference between 4the and 4.5 generation seems to be AESA, as both are not stealthy.

Can one 4.5 generation plane take on three 4th generation planes? How long before we will be able to upgrade the MIG-29K to an AESA radar?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 May 2013 00:13

^^ You clearly did not read the sarcasm of a poster who is very measured in what he posts.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 May 2013 03:58

That was a good view of the AEW Kamov.A very neat compact bird.Given that we have developed our own AEW mini-AWACS using an Embraer platform,with a "wafer" styled radar atop the fuselage,it shouldn't be impossible in the evolution of the KA-31 to devise an AESA version of its billboard rotating radar.Austin said that there appeared to be plenty of internal space on the Kamov.This could be used either for more eqpt. or even an additional fuel tank to extend the endurance.

With conformal radars aboard warships aplenty,ASW/AEW multi-role helos with conformal radars used in the fuselage should also come about.The Hawkeye "chapatti" rotating radar is rapidly being replaced by billboard styled radars for medium sized platforms.On larger carriers,Ospreys have potential for AEW versions,but for carriers below 65,000t without cats,AEW helos using either the Kamov or Merlin will stay relevant for a long time.A-2-A buddy refuelling of fighters with AESA radars will expand the envelope.Future naval MIG-29/35s should incorporate AESA radars and TVC too.If we build larger 65t+ carriers,we could operate Super-Sukhois ,FGFAs too from them.These aircraft have radars with a 500km+ range.

Ideally,we should develop along with Russia a STOVL naval aircraft,similar to the JSF,or even a STOVL version of the FGFA.Cats are extremely costly to build and operate,requiring huge power sources.There would be a market for at least 500 of the type .The RN has gone the STOVL way with the JSF,abandoning the conventional version.A 65t carrier will only see the light of day around 2015.That would give us enough time to develop a STOVL strike aircraft.

UCAVs are the way of the future,with the USN already in initial tests.However,they don't come cheap at all and have limited payloads due to their internal weapons bay and stealth features.One would need both UCAVs and manned fighters aboard future carriers.Our classified Aura/whatever could have a naval version too .

One wonders whether a naval MIG-21 would've succeeded.I doubt it as the aircraft's design and characteristics from available material,would require extensive "surgery" to adapt it to carrier ops. In those far away times,the Soviets used to describe the carrier derisively as Marshal Malenkov,pioneer of Soviet rocket forces-a "missile man", did,as the "5th hind leg of a dog"! So carriers were not on the minds of Soviet leaders until a certain Sergei Gorshkov became naval chief and after building up a massive nuclear sub fleet that could take care of US carriers,started building carriers of their own.One of which will in the near future proudly fly the IN's ensign and Indian flag!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 May 2013 04:13

maz wrote:Nice write up on navair by Cdre Rai

http://iduanalysis.com/gaurding-the-air ... n-11th-may

China is expanding its interest in the region with ‘cheque book diplomacy’ , building and taking over commercial ports like Gwadar, while USA with a leased base in Diego Garcia which lease expires next year, has begun re-balancing its forces in the East with a ‘Pivot’ like move, and looking at Gan island in the Maldives as a base on payment.

Can India lease Diego Garcia? Will it be opposed by other countries? PRC?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 May 2013 04:32

DG is wrapped up in the courts in the UK.It is highly unlikely that the Brits will relinquish their hold over DG and return it to Mauritius.However,IF DG is returned to the Mauritians some time in the future,the strong ties that India has with it should see the possibility of us using the base.One note of warning.China is making rapid inroads in Mauritius.45,000 Chinese are coming to live and work in Mauritius in a thinly disguised Chinese "development" there.A kind of "Chinatown" is being developed underway,funded surreptitiously by the PLA,Chinese civil contractors have already buillt many housing developments,etc.,The number of Chinese amounts to the equivalent of 3 Chinese "civil" divisions,who will be engaged in IT..and we know what that means,"cyberwarfare",etc.,all using Mauritius as a covert militayr base,that too right under the noses of India,who have such long-standing traditional ties with Isle Maurice!

IN,MEA,are you listening?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 15 May 2013 04:39

Philip wrote:One wonders whether a naval MIG-21 would've succeeded.I doubt it as the aircraft's design and characteristics from available material,would require extensive "surgery" to adapt it to carrier ops.

Mig 21 is known for high landing speeds, not the best attribute for carrier operations.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 May 2013 05:20

SagarAg wrote:
srai wrote:
Most likely it will also be used by MiG-29K pilots for carrier landing practice.
Carrier landing practice ?? Is IN trying to land a jet from the front side of the carrier

Obviously not

when they land it will be from the other side.

I should have also added takeoff along with landing practice. The facility simulates an aircrat carrier deck dimensions (maybe excluding the angled deck portion used for landing) and from what I remember it has arrestor wires.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 May 2013 06:28

There was a bbc pgm in ior rim nations that showed this chinese development in mauritius. Its a vast industrial free trade zone that is right now just scrubland and big roads. There is a chinese restaurant there run by a cheen lady, and oddly a line of mongolian yurts with handicrafts inside that function as dining rooms.
For sure they are trying to put top mauritian political and business leaders on the payroll though.

The other strong lobby there is the tuna fishing industry. They unload the frozen tuna and tin it there for export around the world.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 May 2013 10:19

Indian Navy Will Boost Kamov Fleet With New Carrier

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 15 May 2013 10:46

Philip wrote:DG is wrapped up in the courts in the UK.It is highly unlikely that the Brits will relinquish their hold over DG and return it to Mauritius.However,IF DG is returned to the Mauritians some time in the future,the strong ties that India has with it should see the possibility of us using the base.One note of warning.China is making rapid inroads in Mauritius.45,000 Chinese are coming to live and work in Mauritius in a thinly disguised Chinese "development" there.A kind of "Chinatown" is being developed underway,funded surreptitiously by the PLA,Chinese civil contractors have already buillt many housing developments,etc.,The number of Chinese amounts to the equivalent of 3 Chinese "civil" divisions,who will be engaged in IT..and we know what that means,"cyberwarfare",etc.,all using Mauritius as a covert militayr base,that too right under the noses of India,who have such long-standing traditional ties with Isle Maurice!

IN,MEA,are you listening?

Wishful thinking. UK would be extremely foolish to handover these strategically invaluable islands to Mauritius. WikiLeaks had some news about UK proposing to declare the whole area as environmentally sensitive, that would prevent their courts from resettling the Natives back to these islands. With the UK defence budget cuts, it makes sense for Brits to let Khan use the islands, enhancing their own security in turn.

They will most probably lease it to US for another 20 years. Secondly, no way is the US letting DG go after billions of $$$ that it invested in the naval and air infrastructure on these islands and especially now that Asia-Pacific will host 60% of USN assets.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 May 2013 11:15

I am not too sure DG is a full featured base like the ones in italy, greece, (was) subic bay or okinawa.
more like guam it seems to be a place to refuel & rearm not a heavy repair or R&R. its the kind of base IN is planning in the A&N a operational turnaround & recovery base.

everything has to be flown in at huge expenses...incl food and water probably. it has a single 4km runway, a smallish apron and a oil farm - just a hangout for a few bombers to go bomb the wahabi warriors and a place for USN ships to refuel. they have a base in bahrain closer to the action and multiple bases like Al-udeid and thumrait to base their strike ac.

if the PLAN makes a big move into IOR we could see increased nums of P3, P8A and BAMS lurking around there.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 15 May 2013 12:18

Russia Puts Finishing Touches on Indian Aircraft Carrier
http://en.rian.ru/military_news/2013051 ... rrier.html

member_25399 · Post by **member_25399** » 15 May 2013 12:24

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 059930.cms

Will the whole fleet be based in TN ? Any ideas on the split on numbers required for east and west coast.
How much of a logistics issue will it be to base a few on the Andaman Islands ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 May 2013 14:24

Navy hit by another sex scandal, AK Antony orders probe

Ajit.C · Post by **Ajit.C** » 15 May 2013 14:58

Boeing Poseidon inducted into Indian Navy
From Times of India

Navy inducts Boeing Poseidon-8I to tighten coastal security
CHENNAI: India has inducted its first Boeing Poseidon-8I aircraft, which will boost long range maritime snooping and warfare capability, into Navy at its air station INS Rajali on Wednesday.

Vice admiral B K Varma, chief of staff, Eastern Naval Command of the Indian Navy said "the aircraft is to be used for broad-area maritime and anti-submarine operations. The aircraft is going to be a unique part in our anti-surface warfare, surveillance and intelligence capacities".

He said "it is capability based planning, not a threat based planning, that India follows to enhancement of maritime border security".

As part of a detailed maritime mission plan, Varma said, different phases of coastal security schemes were also being implemented across the Indian maritime borders.

"For an effective understanding of the maritime related issues in Indian waters, a Maritime Domain Awareness (MDA) is now being designed to coordinate with 17 maritime agencies in the country. This will also ensure an identity for each and every fishing boat and vessels in Indian waters to avoid maritime safety and security violations," he said.

The Boeing P8I is armed with anti-ship Harpoon missiles, Mark-54 anti-submarine torpedoes and Mark-82 depth bombs and was handed over to India in Seattle in December 2012.

It also has a Global Positioning System ( GPS)-cum-Inertial Navigation System that ensures accuracy in hitting targets.

It was in 2009 India signed a two billion dollar contract for a batch of eight aircraft, of which seven will be delivered by 2015.

Induction of P8Iaircraft is being observed as a significant development in enhancing India's coastal security at a time when there are a lot of speculations about how China is involved in the development of a port near Karachi, a coast-based port of Gwadar.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 15 May 2013 16:51

Considering the size of Indian ocean, how many of these do we need to make a difference? Eight seems very low unless they are only for naval strike deployments.

Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force aviation has 100 P-3 Orion's, US 150 plus. Having even 30 will be another 4~5 billion expense. Plus they have high operating costs burning expensive aviation fuel.

Given China's recent activities in the Indian ocean, Indian navy should be exploring more cost effective and resilient sensing platforms.

nits · Post by **nits** » 15 May 2013 17:00

nik wrote:Considering the size of Indian ocean, how many of these do we need to make a difference? Eight seems very low unless they are only for naval strike deployments.

Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force aviation has 100 P-3 Orion's, US 150 plus. Having even 30 will be another 4~5 billion expense. Plus they have high operating costs burning expensive aviation fuel.

Given China's recent activities in the Indian ocean, Indian navy should be exploring more cost effective and resilient sensing platforms.

Nik; sometimes i feel you post just just for sake of posting - you want more aircrafts which will cost billions and in same breath you are worried for there fuel which is peanuts compared to the aircraft cost

Though i agree on increased numbers but do take in consideration that China and US have much larger area to cover compared to India and both of them have multiple conflict theaters and so #'s are high. Japan is more of defensive force and hence the high #'s...

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 15 May 2013 17:29

Looks like INAS 312 is flying the newly inducted P-8Is!
Does anybody know if the Tu-142Ms were handed over to a different (newly raised?) Squadron or are there different flights within the same Sq operating the two types?

Link from tarmak

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 15 May 2013 18:50

Good news, IN has its own Phalcon moment today! albeit a little silent one

noob question, with the recent Mig-29k squadron induction, is there an overlap of responsibilities between coast based MKI squadrons (Sulur/Thanjavur) and the Black Panthers Mig-29k squadron as far as Indian ocean goes?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 May 2013 19:29

the IAF MKI squadron in thanjavur will be the last one to come up sometime in 2018. before that all northern bases will get their 2nd squadrons.

by that time the Mig29K sqdn will also be seaborne on the IAC(one hopes) and gorshkov.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 15 May 2013 19:45

Timeline is quite true, however, unless we are talking about sustained operations within IOR, the MKI's 10hr range is sufficient(?) for specific missions within IOR taking off from mainland

For sustained operations, would like to see an exercise between the Mig-29k taking off from Vikram based in BoB and the Singaporean F-16s stationed at Kalaikunda airbase, hopefully in 2014

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 15 May 2013 19:50

nik wrote:Considering the size of Indian ocean, how many of these do we need to make a difference? Eight seems very low unless they are only for naval strike deployments.

Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force aviation has 100 P-3 Orion's, US 150 plus. Having even 30 will be another 4~5 billion expense. Plus they have high operating costs burning expensive aviation fuel.

Given China's recent activities in the Indian ocean, Indian navy should be exploring more cost effective and resilient sensing platforms.

I think a follow on order for another four is under process which which bring the numbers up to twelve.

Can't figure out how IN wishes to deploy these. Perhaps the vast majority would be used to cover the east coast and beyond the islands towards malacca straights given that the naval threat from the west is minimal. Not to mention that these planes can be made to redeploy in less than a day in case of an emergency .

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 15 May 2013 19:57

Why the fixation on Singaporean F-16s? If anything we need to be wargaming with the Vietnamese Su-30s out of Cam Ranh Bay. That is how the fortune cookie is going to crumble sooner or later.

arun · Post by **arun** » 15 May 2013 20:06

A number of pictures on the homecoming of INS Sindhurakshak after her refit in Russia are available on this Russian website. The entry is dated May 7, 2013:

Clicky

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 15 May 2013 21:02

Haven't come across any news report that talks about Indo-Viet air exercises, if we had the intention we could have used the MKIs already at least after last Red Flag

Anyways, read your other post about not needing nuke propulsion for IN Carriers, if IN CBG is going to operate outside IOR why deny ourselves simpler logistics even after the whole Arihant meditation experience. The Chinese might get a nuke propelled carrier themselves sooner or later.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 May 2013 22:30

The ski jump ramp at dabolim airport from google earth. The yellow line shows a length of 205meters upto launch point.

Will · Post by **Will** » 16 May 2013 01:29

How much of a use is that Ski Jump ramp. Taking of aircraft carriers is not as big a deal as landing on one. Dont think that ramp will be much use for landing practice unless they got some arrester wires configured at the other end.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 16 May 2013 03:34

^^^ Very true, what was required is to have arrester wires. I don't think it is possible to have arrestor wires configured at the other end of the ski jump as it would simply be too dangerous.