Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 16 May 2013 03:54

nits wrote:Nik; sometimes i feel you post just just for sake of posting - you want more aircrafts which will cost billions and in same breath you are worried for there fuel which is peanuts compared to the aircraft cost :-?


Fuel cost are not peanuts, since airlines major expense is fuel. It costs 80,000 USD per day in fuel cost to fly a 737-800 at max availability. Flying 8 for 300 days per year will cost a cool 200 million USD in fuel only. Maintenance is additional. Figures from http://www.airline-empires.com/index.ph ... -a320-200/. Granted that we will not fly these planes like an airline, but it will still be substancial $$$ in expense over 10 years, more than aircraft cost..
We have to monitor west for Paki agostas and east for Chinese subs. And the Indian ocean is quite substancial if we decide to monitor traffic going across it or set up a blockade.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 16 May 2013 04:13

Look who is home ?

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 16 May 2013 06:15

Will wrote:How much of a use is that Ski Jump ramp. Taking of aircraft carriers is not as big a deal as landing on one. Dont think that ramp will be much use for landing practice unless they got some arrester wires configured at the other end.
sohamn wrote:^^^ Very true, what was required is to have arrester wires. I don't think it is possible to have arrestor wires configured at the other end of the ski jump as it would simply be too dangerous.


Here is your answer:
Shore-Based Test Facility nearing completion in Goa
...
India’s first Shore-Based Test Facility (SBTF) is nearing completion. Built at the Naval Air Station, INS Hansa in Goa, the facility would replicate as a static model of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) being built at the Cochin Shipyard. The SBTF would have a 14 deg parabolic profile ski-jump for take-off and an arresting gear for landing.
...
... “The facility will ensure timely induction of Naval LCA (NLCA) into naval service and conserve ship-based test flying effort. Apart from the flight testing of NLCA, the SBTF can be subsequently used for training of naval pilots on NLCA and MiG 29K....
...
The SBTF will be a equipped with restraining gear system with ski-jump for take-off, arresting gear system for landing, optical landing system, TV landing control system, light signaling system and other associated auxiliary units, exactly similar to the IAC.
...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 May 2013 06:52


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 May 2013 06:54

Navy is working out plans for a fwd operational base and a couple of new airbases in the andamans.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sankum » 16 May 2013 07:04

Image

The arrester landing facility being built at dabolim airport on a parrallel track. The yellow line is 205m.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 16 May 2013 10:28

This one is the real deal. Like the runway extension after the ramp for safety. In the prior photo, if the take off went wrong, then the plane with pilot are heading in to the dirt patch.

The vertical stabilizer on the shiny new P8i is looks outsized. Hoping we learn from it like we did from the Phalcon and build desi-equivalents in numbers.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 May 2013 17:44

nik wrote:This one is the real deal. Like the runway extension after the ramp for safety. In the prior photo, if the take off went wrong, then the plane with pilot are heading in to the dirt patch.


If the poster is right, the prior photo is of a ski-jump - meant for a takeoff. The second photo is one for an arrestor - for landing.

The vertical stabilizer on the shiny new P8i is looks outsized. Hoping we learn from it like we did from the Phalcon and build desi-equivalents in numbers.


The P-8s are derived from the civilian 737, whose vertical stabilizer seem to be as large.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby maz » 16 May 2013 22:30


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 May 2013 22:35

what is the huge beehive shaped structure under the fuselage? sonobuoy launcher? spooled wire antenna to talk to subs?


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 May 2013 00:55

someone may add more to India's ways of launching
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_naming_and_launching

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20126
Chinese navy's submarines and other warships in the IOR.


DRDO need to work on miniature subs that search and destroy. unmanned submarines can win us the great power status.. even the sole super power will dread of such technologies, stealthy small, single mission search and destroy on command.

communication channel to such subsurface vehicles would be the key.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sourab_c » 17 May 2013 06:54

Hey fellas,

I was looking into some of the systems on the P-8s and came across this from Wikipedia :

In mid-2008, the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) deleted the requirement for the P-8A to be equipped with magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) equipment. This was part of a NAVAIR-directed effort to reduce P-8A aircraft weight by 3,500 lb (1,600 kg) to improve aircraft range and endurance. P-8Is destined for the Indian Navy will continue to retain MAD. The P-8A will use a new hydrocarbon sensor to detect fuel vapors from diesel submarines and other conventionally powered ships


Does anyone have any insight into why the IN went for MAD rather than the new hydrocarbon sensors?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 17 May 2013 07:00

Sniffer for diesel submarine fumes have been around for decades i think. Not sure how reliable it is...the vietcong were able to confuse ammonia sniffers on american a.c by hanging urine pots up in the trees. On other hand a MAD is hard to cheat.

Real reason could be khan does not intend the p8a to be flying low and using the mad. They have already invested in a kit to launch torpedoes and sonobuoys from 20,000ft which was never dont before. Perhaps the job of detecting submerged subs will be left to helicopters and other subs in the network while the not for export sar/isar modes on the apy radar is said to be very capable of detecting submarine periscopes at long range. That mode was degraded on our p8 because it works for land target surveillance as well

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 17 May 2013 07:40

sourab_c wrote:Hey fellas,

I was looking into some of the systems on the P-8s and came across this from Wikipedia :

In mid-2008, the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) deleted the requirement for the P-8A to be equipped with magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) equipment. This was part of a NAVAIR-directed effort to reduce P-8A aircraft weight by 3,500 lb (1,600 kg) to improve aircraft range and endurance. P-8Is destined for the Indian Navy will continue to retain MAD. The P-8A will use a new hydrocarbon sensor to detect fuel vapors from diesel submarines and other conventionally powered ships


Does anyone have any insight into why the IN went for MAD rather than the new hydrocarbon sensors?


Do hydrocarbon sensors detect SSNs and SSBN?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 May 2013 08:17

airborne lidar is another possibility perhaps.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sid » 17 May 2013 08:57

RajitO wrote:
sourab_c wrote:Hey fellas,

I was looking into some of the systems on the P-8s and came across this from Wikipedia :

In mid-2008, the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) deleted the requirement for the P-8A to be equipped with magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) equipment. This was part of a NAVAIR-directed effort to reduce P-8A aircraft weight by 3,500 lb (1,600 kg) to improve aircraft range and endurance. P-8Is destined for the Indian Navy will continue to retain MAD. The P-8A will use a new hydrocarbon sensor to detect fuel vapors from diesel submarines and other conventionally powered ships

Does anyone have any insight into why the IN went for MAD rather than the new hydrocarbon sensors?


Do hydrocarbon sensors detect SSNs and SSBN?


This is a relatively new system and is more effective in detecting new breed of AIP equipped submarines.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nick_S » 17 May 2013 09:01

sourab_c wrote:Hey fellas,

I was looking into some of the systems on the P-8s and came across this from Wikipedia :

In mid-2008, the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) deleted the requirement for the P-8A to be equipped with magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) equipment. This was part of a NAVAIR-directed effort to reduce P-8A aircraft weight by 3,500 lb (1,600 kg) to improve aircraft range and endurance. P-8Is destined for the Indian Navy will continue to retain MAD. The P-8A will use a new hydrocarbon sensor to detect fuel vapors from diesel submarines and other conventionally powered ships


Does anyone have any insight into why the IN went for MAD rather than the new hydrocarbon sensors?


Is it written somewhere that P-8Is do not have the new hydrocarbon sensor in addition to MAD ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 17 May 2013 09:04

I thought with aip one could chug along at 3 knots for a couple weeks with no need to snorkel. So no radar or smoke signature nor any thermal signature of a shallow running sub.

Khan must have some other sensor planned or in the basement to tackle aip subs...perhaps a radar of sorts on p8a and mq4c to detect the submerged wake of submarines?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 May 2013 09:15

Did DARPA wrap up the blue light from solid state/laser detection project into a deployed system? deep sea ops mission.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 17 May 2013 10:05

Could be on route. Behind every khan system is a n and n+1 product cooking in the pot. Surely they realize china masters or clones aip means iran, north korea and other tall fliends get it next.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 17 May 2013 12:37

The blue-green laser has reportedly had some success.The use of sats is increasing.Some years ago,it was revealed that Britain/NATO was detecting sub wakes using sats.Here is some open source info on the same.

1. Asia Times:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LE13Ad02.html

Xcpts:


US satellites shadow China's submarines
By Peter J Brown

The People's Liberation Army's Navy (PLAN) submarines cannot spot United States satellites high overhead as the submarines leave their bases at Sanya on Hainan Island, Qingdao in Shandong province and Ningbo in Zhejiang province, and head for deeper water.

Plenty of very deep water can be found in the South China Sea, especially in the zone north of the Spratly Islands, east of the Paracels, and south of the Luzon Strait.

"A more challenging area for submarines to operate undetected is the East China Sea, which is quite shallow from the Chinese coastline up to the Okinawa Trough with a depth of only 30 to 60 fathoms [180 to 360 feet] in most places," said associate professor Peter Dutton with the China Maritime Studies Institute at the US Naval War College.

"Much of the water space [in the South China Sea] is more than 2,000 fathoms deep," said Dutton.

Detecting submarines via satellite is a form of Non-Acoustic Anti-Submarine Warfare (NAASW). Lasers, infrared and other detectors and synthetic aperture radar (SAR) in space may be used as part of this NAASW activity. Satellites might see subtle undersea disturbances caused by submarines, watch wave patterns on or beneath the sea surface, or detect subtle variations in ocean temperature.

This is not to be confused with satellite communications, nor is an "EO" or "Earth Observation" satellite to be confused with "EO" as in an "Electro-Optical" means of detecting submarines.

Over the next 18 months, the US National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) - operator of the US spy satellite fleet - is planning multiple satellite launches, and China must assume that one or more of these new US surveillance satellites will help support US Navy efforts to locate and track PLAN submarines.

Satellites form a network along with undersea sensors and detectors fixed on the sea floor or drifting in the open ocean as well as devices mounted on other submarines, ships, unmanned undersea vehicles (UUVs), aircraft, helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

Many are skeptical that satellites can perform NAASW missions effectively, reliably and at reasonable cost.

"The natural disturbances of the sea surface due to wind and tides, it seems to me, are very likely to mask any disturbance due to a submarine passage, and so even if this were a viable detection technique, it seems to me so limited in application that it would not be worth the investment," said one former US Navy sonar expert.

In April, a source told RIA Novosti, a Russian newspaper, that Russia had developed a novel satellite module "used for both defense and civilian purposes, in particular, providing meteorological data", and it can "carry out remote sensing of the sea and detect submerged submarines". This will be tested in space perhaps as early as next year. [1]

"Submarine detection, by any means, is a classified and highly guarded topic. The fact that the Russians are talking about it is the most interesting aspect of this announcement," said Brian Whitehouse, president of Nova Scotia-based OEA Technologies, Inc. He co-authored a paper with Daniel Hutt in 2008 about spaceborne sensors, ocean intelligence, and the maritime battlespace. [2]

The satellite in question is apparently the first of three small Russian Kanopus (Konopus) remote sensing satellites.

"This satellite is planned for 2011 and it will carry an Earth observing payload that includes a sensor for studying the underwater light environment," said Dr Jonathan McDowell, an astrophysicist at the Massachusetts-based Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics who is also the editor of Jonathan's Space Report. "I cannot evaluate the claim that this will let them detect the wakes of submarines. I do not believe that such technology is being used operationally at the moment. I am not aware of relevant flight experiments, but they may have occurred."

Russia has previously demonstrated its satellite sub-hunting skills. Swedish satellite expert Sven Grahn identified the Russian Almaz-1 satellite which was launched in 1991 as a submarine-detection satellite that could see the surface wake or trail of a submerged sub. Besides this satellite, the Russians deployed other large, nuclear-powered and radar-equipped ocean surveillance satellites.

"Russian satellites known as RORSATs used radar to track surface ships, but the US Navy was not concerned that our subs could be detected, much less tracked. The signals, even if they existed, would be so wrapped into random noise that extracting any usable intelligence from them proved impossible," author James Oberg, a top US expert on Soviet and Russian space programs, told Asia Times Online. "The cancellation of that [Soviet] satellite program followed at least three accidental re-entries of debris. The laws of physics compelled them to orbit as low as possible, creating high air drag."

The theoretical boundary below which satellites cannot successfully maintain their orbits is approximately 160 kilometers above the Earth.

The Soviet space station Mir may have served as a platform for related research activities in the same way that the US Skylab once served as a platform for space radar testing in 1970s.

In the late 1990s, sub-hunting satellites made headlines. An American scientist, Peter Lee, was caught and convicted of passing sensitive information to China about the so-called Radar Ocean Imaging (ROI) joint project which involved the United K and the US. A decision by the US Navy based on concerns about further disclosures about the nature and scope of the ROI project echoes to this day.

"Peter Lee's case was they had this guy giving this very sensitive data to the Chinese on underwater detection of submarines. They ran into this case where the navy wouldn't allow a court case against him because of the data. So they had a bargain plea, and he got off, basically. For stealing very high-level stuff, he gets probably, what, a couple of months in a halfway house," former US ambassador to China, James Lilley, told PBS in 2004. [3]

China obtained relevant information from Russia, too.

"Chinese experts reportedly received technical assistance from Russian satellite experts in years following the Soviet Union's collapse," said associate professor Andrew Erickson at the China Maritime Studies Institute. "Specialists at the State Key Laboratory of Satellite Ocean Environmental Dynamics have researched ship detection using [SAR]."

Maritime surveillance became a top priority at the national level when China's so-called, "863 State High-Technology Development Plan" was activated. And China's fleet of Haiyang ocean surveillance satellites will grow to three when Haiyang-2A is launched later this year

Prior to the ROI program, the US SEASAT ocean satellite project which was launched by the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) in 1978 carried a SAR into space for maritime surveillance purposes. After just over 100 days in space, SEASAT suddenly stopped working due to a short circuit in the design of its solar panels.

"Rumors suggested it had been turned off or sabotaged. There was a claim that SEASAT had mapped a field of World War 2-era shipwrecks on the floor of the English Channel," said Oberg.

A US Navy oceanographer from Australia, Paul Scully-Power, who became the first oceanographer in space, flew on the space shuttle Challenger (STS - 41G) in 1984. The US Navy later admitted that the mission had successfully detected the undersea or internal waves generated by a submarine which had been tracked successfully at relatively shallow depths. This was deemed, "incredibly important to us" and was reported by the Washington Post in 1985 - quoting a senior US Navy admiral at the time. [4]

n mid-May, by the way, the final flight of the space shuttle Atlantis (STS-132) will include a longtime submariner, US Navy captain Stephen Bowen.

According to naval analyst and author Norman Polmar, certain satellites can track submarine wakes, but are unable to do so continuously nor all the time, and not in all underwater environments. A submarine's depth, and speed along with the characteristics of the ocean bottom and water clarity, among other things, come into play here.

"A submarine is a relatively small, finite object - perhaps 300 to
500 feet [91 meters to 152 meters] in length in most cases - but the submarine's wake is persistent and stretches out for miles," said Polmar.

While the PLAN submarine fleet is the largest and most diverse in Asia, and very soon the fastest growing in the world, the PLAN's nuclear submarines are relatively easy to find. It is the diesel/electric submarines - and those equipped with so-called air-independent propulsion systems in particular - that are much harder to detect.

"The US Office of Naval Intelligence's unclassified July 2009 report on the PLAN suggests that some of the PLAN's diesel submarines are already extremely quiet, but its nuclear submarines remain relatively noisy," said Erickson.

US satellites play an increasingly important communications role in ASW, and are critical to the US Navy's Persistent Littoral Undersea Surveillance Network (PLUSNet), ForceNet and Sea Shield programs, to name a few. In addition, the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is funding the Tactical Relay Information Network which uses lasers to instantly beam vital messages to submerged US subs as they are underway and perhaps chasing down other subs.

This writer speculates that as many as a dozen countries have operated sensors aboard satellites involved in some form of NAASW research. Others may disagree with this assessment.

Whitehouse and Hutt, for example, stated that, "many of these sensors are not of immediate practical benefit to military operations".

Keep in mind that commercial satellite ventures, and public - private partnerships such as Germany's RapidEye AG offer all sorts of satellite imagery.

Smaller, less expensive satellites possibly flying in formation over the ocean may offer significant advantages here. They can train their sensors and cameras on a single spot as they pass by in formation. California-based Microcosm Inc, for example, is developing the NanoEye small-satellite system, which comes equipped with basic or advanced electro-optical and infrared sensor payloads.

"Smaller satellites flying in formation may seem attractive for reasons of cost and coverage, but larger satellites offer far more advantages in terms of real capabilities," said Polmar. "Simply because of their small size, the smaller satellites are less capable, offer less electrical power and you cannot put much on them unlike much larger satellites."

The real advantage comes from the entire satellite-enabled infrastructure - or systems of systems - which links the powerful space-based sensors and detectors with those mounted on surrounding ships, subs, UUVs, aircraft, helicopters and UAVs - including the new "Sea Avenger" - so that all this surveillance data merges together to form a "common undersea picture" which can be instantly shared across the entire ASW community.

Aircraft and UAVs lingering overhead can mimic surveillance satellites, and their presence is an important aspect of the US "Maritime Domain Awareness" strategy. Another option involves inserting additional maritime surveillance assets above conventional aircraft and UAVs, and beneath the satellites.

For example, the US Navy is interested in DARPA's "Integrated Sensor Is the Structure" (ISIS) program, which is, in effect, an integrated stratospheric airship/radar - the stratosphere is found at an altitude of roughly 10 to 50 kilometers above Earth - featuring a 600-kilometer-wide sensor radius. In fact, DARPA included a slide during a briefing last year that showed how a single ISIS on station over the Luzon Strait could conduct surveillance operations covering the entire Strait from Taiwan to the northern Philippines, and almost as far west almost as the coast of China.

"No single sensor/platform combination has all the answers. Every sensor has its limitations. As a result, each application usually involves a suite of sensors, platforms and computer-based models," said Whitehouse and Hutt.

Associate professor Kazuto Suzuki of Hokkaido University's Public Policy School described Japan's Maritime Self Defense Force (MSDF) as "one of the best ASW forces without using satellite capability".

"There is no discussion of a satellite infrastructure for ASW. Satellites are only useful for detecting activities [at submarine bases]. MSDF and the 7th Fleet of the US Navy are sharing the work for ASW, and there is a strong confidence between them," said Suzuki.

However, over the years, Japan has launched many advanced remote sensing/earth observation, meteorological, and engineering test satellites - exactly the types of satellites which are ideally suited for conducting satellite-based NAASW research and development.

One relevant joint NASA-Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency project on the International Space Station recently tested a maritime hyperspectral imager. This coincided with work on the same type of imager done as part of the US Navy's Tactical Space Innovative Naval Prototype program involving so-called TacSats and their maritime satellite links to buoys and "unattended" sensors - perhaps UUV-mounted sensors.

China routinely uses ocean-centric satellite imagery provided by the US, Japanese and Europeans. Their own undersea mapping projects such as one done recently as part of a larger and more comprehensive Chinese survey of the South China Sea rely heavily on access to this data. [5]

The world's vast oceans have not been rendered completely transparent, but for over three decades, satellites have been transforming the way we view them.

As the US Congress scrutinizes the US-Russian START (Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty) successor and possible restrictions on the future use of US submarine launch tubes for anti-missile purposes, new potential threats to submarines need to be examined carefully.

Finally, the sinking in March 2010 of the South Korean destroyer Cheonan - important evidence in the form of "satellite imagery" is surfacing although the investigation is still underway [6] - serves to remind everyone that work must continue to help thwart future surprise attacks.

Notes
1. Russia to build submarine-detecting satellite, RIA NOVOSTI, Apr 15, 2010.
2. Ocean intelligence in the maritime battlespace: the role of spaceborne sensors and hf radar, Canadian Military Journal, July 14, 2008.
3. PBS interviews James Lilley, PBS.org, June 4, 2003.
4. "Shuttle Flight Yields Data on Hiding Subs," The Washington Post, March 22, 1985, p A10. (Not available online.)
5. Using satellite data to map coral reefs in the South China Sea, Spie, February 21, 2007.
6. South Korea Concludes That North Korea Sank Ship, Chosun Says, Bloomberg.com, May 7, 2010.

Peter J Brown, a satellite journalist from the US state of Maine, was part of the team that worked on the 1991 PBS documentary, "Submarine: Steel Boats, Iron Men". )


Since range,time on station,endurance is vital,it is why I keep on wanting upgrades of our Tu-142s which have unmatched range and endurance,far greater than the P-8s even with refuelling.

2.Ausairpower:

Here is a lengthy paper by Carlo Kopp of Oz on the same subject.MAD explained diagramatically too.

http://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-ASW-Se ... c-2010.pdf

3.Naval Post Graduate School
Monterey,
California
Thesis:
The Resonant Interaction of a Submarine's Wake with a Stratified Fluid
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a273046.pdf

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sourab_c » 17 May 2013 16:33

Nick_S wrote:
Is it written somewhere that P-8Is do not have the new hydrocarbon sensor in addition to MAD ?



Possible, let us know if you find anything regarding that.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 17 May 2013 17:33

Nick_S wrote:Hey fellas,

I was looking into some of the systems on the P-8s and came across this from Wikipedia :

In mid-2008, the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) deleted the requirement for the P-8A to be equipped with magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) equipment. This was part of a NAVAIR-directed effort to reduce P-8A aircraft weight by 3,500 lb (1,600 kg) to improve aircraft range and endurance. P-8Is destined for the Indian Navy will continue to retain MAD. The P-8A will use a new hydrocarbon sensor to detect fuel vapors from diesel submarines and other conventionally powered ships


Does anyone have any insight into why the IN went for MAD rather than the new hydrocarbon sensors?

Is it written somewhere that P-8Is do not have the new hydrocarbon sensor in addition to MAD ?


They don't. In the fullness of time someone from the Navy will confirm it, but don't hold your breath...

Applying Occam's Razor, the Navy has experience with MAD and decided to stick to it, rather than switch to a different and not all that new technology.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Klaus » 17 May 2013 18:43

Singha wrote: spooled wire antenna to talk to subs?


Was hoping the P-8I's have a trailing antenna as a mobile ELF/VLF facility apart from shore based ones.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 May 2013 20:45

I am already thinking ahead on how some new next generation stealth subs with mirror surface fixtures that could deflect these blue lights. theoretically possible.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 May 2013 20:56

Philip, Recall the French espionage case where they acquired radar sat details from the US in the mid-late 90s?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 May 2013 23:22

If they can do on country C, then they can do country I as well, more so on I because of use of technology from country R, plus the new class of signature they may want to capture when I is planning to launch one soon.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 21 May 2013 09:07

A short and nice video on Mig 29K features ... not sure whether posted earlier or not


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 21 May 2013 13:02

Red Alert! Are our Scorpene's fatally flawed?

The already troubled Scorpene sub programme,5+ years overdue and almost as expensive as a nuclear suib,is beginning to resemble the Oz's disastrous Collins sub fleet,that too even before the very first sub has been launched.last month we were told of another 18 month delay as the Spanish technical team,helping build the French designed subs,which Spain is also building, had returned home.Now we find that the Spanish version of the sub might sink like a stone to the bottom of the sea! Is this why the Spanish team made a quick getaway back to Spain? The MOD/IN need to clarify matters urgently.

530m bill for Spain's 'sinking submarines'
Updated: 20 May 2013 14:02 GMT+02:00

A defence contract worth €2.2 billion has hit the rocks after tests showed that the "world's most modern" submarine would plunge straight to the bottom of the sea.

http://www.thelocal.es/20130520/530-mil ... ZsmKazPJwE

Sunday's El Mundo newspaper reported on the latest developments in the submarine saga that has given Spain's defence department a sinking feeling.

The €2.2 billion contract to design and build four S-80 underwater craft, billed as "the most modern submarine in the word" has been put on red alert after engineers found flaws in the plans and sounded the klaxon.

€530 million had already been spent when calculations made by engineers at Navantia, the construction firm, revealed that the submarine as designed would dive to the bottom of the sea and stay there due to excess weight.

Opposition party United Left has mocked the development in parliament and demanded explanations.

Two possible solutions have been proposed to help the fat-bottomed sub get off the ground: trim its weight or make it longer.

The second is more feasible but also more expensive as every extra metre added to the submarine would increase its cost by more than €7.5 million.

The president of the Navantia board has defended the work of the company's Cartagena shipyard and complained of "meddling" by unqualified people.

He explained that it had been reported as far back as 2005 that the development process was not being properly followed and that there was a lot of necessary improvisation due to the addition of new elements at the request of the Ministry of Defence.

The Spanish navy will take delivery of the four submarines next year, in the hope that they will be capable of floating.

Steve Tallantyre (news@thelocal.es)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-80-class_submarine

In the 1980s France began studies for the replacement of their S-60 Daphné class diesel submarines. The French shipyard DCNI came up with an all-new design called S-80, with a teardrop hull and new weapons and sensors, which their government decided not to fund.[7] DCNI then proposed a cheaper option called the S-90B, an S-70 Agosta class submarine with limited improvements which was again rejected by the French but which was exported to Pakistan.[7] Meanwhile Spain faced the same problem in replacing their Daphnés, known as the Delfín class in Spanish service, as part of Plan ALTAMAR. Bazán (later Izar, and then Navantia) started on a new design but when it started to look like the S-80, it was agreed to collaborate in a joint venture based on the French S-80.[7] This joint design was shown at Le Bourget Navale in October 1990.[7]

The end of the Cold War meant that funding dried up and the joint venture had to wait until 1997 for their first sale - to Chile - of the new design,[8] which was designated the Scorpène class in export markets. The same year Spain started to look again at its requirements, and in 1998 they indicated that they would buy four Scorpènes,[7] optionally with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system for greater endurance when submerged. A staff requirement for the S-80 Scorpène variant was completed in October 2001.[9] This was soon overtaken by events, as the Armada became more interested in using submarines for power projection than in a more static, defensive role.[9] This shift was codified in guidance of January 2002 from the Chief of Naval Operations and in the strategic defence review of February 2003.[9] The new requirement called for a larger submarine with better endurance and land-attack missiles, which became known as the S-80A design. This was an AIP submarine with a hull diameter of 7.3 metres (24 ft) compared to 6.2 metres (20 ft) for the Scorpène family, a submerged displacement of around 2,400 tonnes versus 1,740 tonnes, larger rudder surfaces and a different fin position.[9]

The Spanish government approved the purchase of four S-80A submarines in September 2003 and signed a contract with Izar on 24 March 2004.[10] The original deal was €1,756m to design and build four submarines,[10] about US$550m per boat, but by 2010 this had increased to €2,212m[11] (US$700m/boat). The plan envisaged the first boat to be delivered in 2011 but government dithering over who should supply the combat system pushed it back to 2013.[9] In 2011 Spain's budget crisis further delayed the first delivery until 2015, with the remaining boats being delivered at one year intervals until 2018.[12] Construction of S-81 began on 13 December 2007.[13] In January 2012 the names were announced, honouring three engineers who made submarines and the first commander of Spain's submarine force respectively - Isaac Peral (S-81), Narciso Monturiol (S-82), Cosme García (S-83) and Mateo García de los Reyes (S-84).[14] In May 2013, Navantia announced that a serious weight imbalance design flaw had been identified which will delay the delivery of the first submarine to the Spanish Navy until possibly 2017.[15]

kit
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 21 May 2013 14:55

The newest of Khans inventions are space based sensors for tracking submarines, ballistic missiles and even cruise missiles in real time. This obviates need for far flung bases and high altitude stealth UAV s are used to patrol areas of special interest. Predators seem to be passe' in the next gen American UAV systems. The rest of the world does have some way to go. ASAT technology does go some way to deal with these ( read china/Russia) but apparently trend from khan is to use mini sat constellations that has a lot of redundancy built in , stealth and active built in countermeasures . Poseidon with BAMS seems to be relevant for next half a decade that's all .. till the space based tech matures.

Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 May 2013 16:05

I wonder if a swarm of smaller sats using smaller aperture sensors could feed into a mother system that gets the overall virtual big aperture picture..kind of like how a aesa radar has nodes , smp computers and even insect eyes are really compound eyes. Degradation will be graceful and scaling up easier than a single uber sized sensor if someone can figure how to do it.

maz
Webmaster BR
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby maz » 22 May 2013 02:50

Volunteers needed with HTML and Joomla skills for updating naval and coast guard pages.



As most viewers would agree, the IN pages need major updates while a new section for the ICG needs to be created. Four volunteers will work with me to create pages and update them regularly using material provided by me.

Initially, I estimate 10 hours per week for a period of 1 month to create pages, then populate them. Subsequently, I estimate no more than 2 hours per week to update various sections/ pages with new events.

Thanks for your interest and i look forward to hearing from some of BR's readers.

Cosmo_R
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 May 2013 03:09

Philip wrote:Red Alert! Are our Scorpene's fatally flawed?

Now we find that the Spanish version of the sub might sink like a stone to the bottom of the sea! .....


Sinking rapidly to the bottom is a feature not a bug. Where have they said it cannot rise just as fast to the surface in order to drive LRMPs MAD?

Philip, you're looking at this as submarine half full of water, I OTOH, look at it as submarine half full of hot air. ;)

suryag
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby suryag » 22 May 2013 03:45

I think we should buy Russian Subs which sink without a noise(kursk etc)

Gurinder P
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gurinder P » 22 May 2013 05:44

suryag wrote:I think we should buy Russian Subs which sink without a noise(kursk etc)


Really dude? Your comment is very inconsiderate to the sailors that lost their lives. Grow up!

Neshant
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2013 06:47

Kursk was a very sad situation.

Some of the sailors were still alive many hours after the sub went down.

Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 May 2013 07:05

we do not follow the japanese media , so dont know how their new soryu class went on, but every other project in submarine area seems mired in problems and cost over runs - seawolf, scorpene, S80, astute, collins, U214....

seems like its better to work out a sound design and stick to it , churning out large nos in improved tranches - Kilo(877 and 636) , Akula and 688(I).

did the virginia class have similar "design issues"?

Neshant
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2013 07:15

i hope India has a bunch of dolphins protecting its fleet.

at short & medium range, their sonar and abilities of detection are many times better that of the best submarine.

they identify sea mines and approaching enemy subs & surface ships a lot quicker than any electronic detection means.

i've heard the US has at least 20 dolphins protecting each carrier fleet.

in addition they also carry out attacks (blow themselves up) against enemy vessels and can navigate deep into coastal rivers.
____

US navy dolphin finds rare early torpedo

http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/nature/p ... d-torpedo/

A specially trained dolphin made an unusual discovery for the Navy during a mine-training exercise off the San Diego coast recently: a 130-year-old, self-propelled Howell torpedo.

A bottlenose dolphin named Ten made the find in March in waters not far from the Hotel del Coronado, according to various reports in the past few days, including the San Diego Union-Tribune and the Los Angeles Times. A week later, a second bottlenose dolphin named Spetz confirmed the sighting.

member_26965
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_26965 » 22 May 2013 08:42

Hello friends...

Some naval projects mentioned like Kilo towed sonar upgrade, future Indian Navy Large ASW Platform

here http://frontierindia.net/atlas-elektron ... management

More information on INS Vikramaditya

http://frontierindia.net/valery-chkalov ... kramaditya

http://frontierindia.net/ins-vikramadit ... h-dry-dock

http://frontierindia.net/ins-vikramadit ... -rectified


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