Indian Naval Discussion

bmallick
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 08 Jun 2013 18:59

Philip wrote:BM,truly,no sarcasm was meant! I truly didn't realise that Sanya was that close,within BMos range and was delighted at the info.It puts a completely new perspective to an Indian presence in Vietnamese waters and being able to operate out of Vietnamese ports. Just imagine the future when we have our BMos equipped subs lurking in the Indo-China Sea operating out of Viet ports/bases! The "Leaky" fleet will be in "shiver me timbers" state!


Philip saar, in that case please accept my sincerest apologies.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 08 Jun 2013 22:57

RajitO wrote:
titash wrote:Can anyone help understand why we still keep the fore SA-N-1 Goa if the missile is obsolete? Perhaps it's still effective against helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft

Thanks,


SA-N-1: Area Defence

Barak: Point Defence


I understand that. My point was why continue to hang on to a missile with a low kill probability, vintage guidance systems, and whose electronics have been compromised long back? Specially when we've been using the SA-N-7/12 from the same supplier for the last 16 years, and our newest frigates use that missile.

Since we've been docking/upgrading these ships regularly with a view to keeping them in service for 10 more years, why not rip out the remaining SA-N-1 launcher/illuminator and mount a SA-N-7/12 launcher/illuminator & Top Plate instead of STAR.

As Maz said, could it be that the SA-N-1 has been upgraded, and still remains competitive against the newest fighters, cruise missiles, and EW systems? Or does it simply exist to deny the higher altitudes to fighters and maritime patrol aircraft?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2013 04:33

Now India's very own "sinking subs".

1.Tangled in red tape, India's submarine fleet sinking
Rajat Pandit, TNN | Jun 9, 2013,

NEW DELHI: The navy's desperate attempts to rescue its sinking underwater combat arm have been dealt a double whammy. First, the ongoing project to construct six Scorpene submarines has been delayed by another 14-18 months, with the first vessel now slated to roll out of Mazagon Dock Limited(MDL) by November 2016 at the earliest.

More worryingly, the new project to construct six advanced stealth submarines, armed with both land-attack missile capabilities and air-independent propulsion for greater underwater endurance, is still stuck in political apathy and bureaucratic red-tape. It has already been examined by three committees after being granted "acceptance of necessity" in November 2007.

The finance ministry has now again returned the file for the over Rs 50,000-crore project, code-named Project-75India, to the defence ministry for clarifications.

"The draft Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) note for P-75I is simply being tossed around with no resolution in sight. The global tender or RFP (request for proposal) for it can be issued only after the CCS approves the file," said a source.

Even if the P-75I tender is floated today, it will take at least three years to ink the contract with the selected foreign collaborator, and another seven to eight years after that for the first submarine to be built.

With the over Rs 23,000 crore Scorpene (P-75) project already running four years behind the original 2012-17 induction schedule, alarms bells are now ringing. The navy is making do with just 14 aging conventional diesel-electric submarines — 10 Russian Kilo-class and four German HDW ones — which are to be progressively retired in the coming years despite life-extension refits. China and Pakistan, meanwhile, are adding muscle to their underwater combat fleets.

Way back in 1999, the CCS approved a 30-year submarine-building plan, which envisaged induction of 12 new submarines by 2012, followed by another dozen by 2030. But the government's inability to plan and take decisions means the navy is yet to get a single submarine 14 years later.

P-75I is embroiled in a debate over the "selection of Indian shipyards" and the "indigenization level to be achieved". While two submarines are to be imported, four will be constructed in India.

The navy wants private shipyards to be involved in the project to save time since MDL is overburdened with orders. But the MoD's defence production department has insisted that three will be built at MDL in Mumbai and one at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam.

The Scorpene project, with contracts being inked with French firms in October 2005 has been grossly mismanaged, with huge time and cost overruns. The deal for the 'MDL procured material packages', including sensors, propulsion and the likes, with the French firms was signed only last December. The order for heavy-weight torpedoes to arm the submarines is also yet to be placed.

Projections show only five to six of the present 14 Indian submarines will be fully operational by 2020. Even with a few Scorpenes by then, India will remain far short of the minimum 18 conventional submarines required to deter Pakistan and China.


PS:What a pathetic situ and one has to lay the blame squarely and primarily upon the MOD and AKA's dithering days as DM.The IN has been pleading for a quick decision for a decade+,and the mismanagement of the Scorpene deal,now where just one small non-AIP sub of around 2000t,costs almost as much as a 12,000t nuclear powered Akula,is simply ridiculous.


2.Why on earth didn't we pick up those early retd. RN harriers.the USMC did and with good reason too! I am sure that if Britain restarted production of Harriers there would be buyers.

Harrier Rescues The F-35B

June 4, 2013: The U.S. Marine Corps is now preparing to upgrade many of their 140 AV-8B Harrier jet fighters to keep them in service, at least until 2030 (instead of 2027). This is because the replacement for the AV-8B, the F-35B, was supposed to begin replacing AV-8Bs this year, but that has been delayed at least two years. Extending the useful life of the AV-8Bs is possible largely because two years ago Britain sold all its Harrier jet fighters, spare parts, and ancillary gear to the marines. The American marines are the largest operator of Harrier aircraft. Harrier production ceased in 1997, as did major refurbishment of older aircraft in 2003.

Three years ago Britain retired its fleet of 74 Harrier vertical-takeoff jets as a cost-cutting measure. The aircraft were put into storage but with enough maintenance services to keep them in shape for rapid reactivation. It was hoped that a buyer could be found. The American marines were not interested initially, because they were expecting the new F-35B to arrive in time to replace their aging Harriers. The F-35B has since suffered numerous delays and is now even threatened with cancellation. This led to the purchase of Britain's Harrier aircraft and spare parts. This could keep the marine Harriers in service for at least another two decades. Without the infusion of British equipment the American Harriers would have been retired in the late 2020s.

Most of the British Harriers are being cannibalized for spare parts. The British and American Harriers are largely identical. A lot of the electronics are different but the airframes and engines are interchangeable. The marines paid $180 million for the stock of spare parts and decommissioned British Harriers.

The Americans are not the only ones having problems keeping their Harrier forces going. Five years ago Britain sold four surplus Harrier aircraft to India, to be cannibalized for spare parts. In the previous twenty years, India had lost half of its 30 Harrier vertical takeoff fighters to accidents, and the fifteen remaining aircraft often could not fly because of a shortage of spares. Britain also offered help with Harrier refurbishment.

The Harrier has the highest accident rate of any current jet fighter. This is largely because of its vertical flight capabilities, which give it an accident rate similar to that of helicopters. The U.S. Marine Corps has lost a third of its 397 Harriers to such accidents in 32 years. That's about three times the rate of the F-18C. However, accident loss rates for combat aircraft have been declining over the last century. Current Harrier rates are similar to those for many fixed-wing aircraft operating in the 1970s. Harrier pilots simply accept the fact that since they operate an aircraft that can fly like a helicopter, they have to expect the higher loss rates that go with it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 09 Jun 2013 12:44

If the Scorpenes cost us upwards of 1 billion apiece, then the next series of imported subs will cost us 1.5 billion a piece for sure.

In this case, it makes sense to build more Arihants. Articles suggest that the first Arihant cost 2.9 billion (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ia/atv.htm). If we build 10 plus of these then costs can come down significantly.

At least we are spending money on domestic production and keeping the technology wheel moving along.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Jun 2013 13:08

yes it increasingly makes sense as the next two arihant class vessels are already said to be under work.
unlike SSK there is no special need to find a AIP system or apply cycles on how to fit in heavy missiles like nirbhay or brahmos.

scrap the P75 and just fund a few more arihant by expanding the production system. we will get the boats quicker looking at glacial pace of work on scorpene...all we need is another foreign type in this mess.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Jun 2013 14:23

We should have ordered 636M class submarine in 4-5 numbers way back in 2010-11 and by 2019 frame work we would could have got 5 636 class subs armed with Klub , plus the 8 upgraded Kilo we operate giving us good logistical and training advantage.

from 2018 onwards we would start loosing T-209 one by one followed by Kilo class inducted earlier and by that time frame we probably at best hope for 2-3 Scorpene in IN service provided we are not facing future bump with this project and MDL stick to its few times revised time lines.

Every one is familiar with the file tossing exercise between MOD and MOF , this will go on for some time and we have RFP then hopefully that gets resolved in 2-3 years then we have PNC and final agreement , even in all optimistic situations I dont foresee P-75I getting signed any time before 2019-2020 frame work.

Its never too late to change since the situation would be far more serious compared to what it is now by 2018 , Cancel the P-75I drama , Start building more Scorpene in the next batch of 6 we can have AIP and integrated with Nirbhai/Exocet , this is a quickest way to bump up the fleet in the shortest possible time. Order more 636M class may be 6 in numbers and we should have all the 6 by 2020 , integrate it with Nirbhai/Klub and indian Sonars and Electronics.

So we have 12 Scropene Class and advanced Scorpene Class and another 10 636M and upgraded Kilo by 2020-2024 both class with maximum Indian content where ever possible and within the scope it does not delay the project. Not only this would bump up the naval submarine fleet quickly with quality conventional submarine in the next 10 year but will also be cheaper to procure , maintain , train crew and have standard weapon system as far as possible.

I dont foresee we can have more than 3 Arhiant operational class by 2020 all said and done but we can order one more Akula class , so that the two CBG will have one SSN each.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 09 Jun 2013 16:37

Boiler repairs finished on Vikramaditya, sea trials to be continued in early July.
Trikand to be delivered by the end of June.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2013 18:33

Russia is the only manufacturer that can build subs for the IN in the quickest timeframe,that is a few more KIlos,which it is also doing for itself.In fact,what the IN should do as many navies worldwide have done is to immediately send the oldest Kilo and first to be retired, to be used as a trials sub.This should include new combat systems,sonar,scopes,a BMos plug and AIP package.Some of the eqpt. being used on the Scorpene could perhaps be also used for commonality if poss.At the same time,we should place an order for more Kilos of the latest avatar.By the time the first two arrive within 3-4 years,the trials of the modified Kilo would've been completed ( a 2 yr. timeframe) and if successful,the later Kilos built to the modified std.Kilos have been so successful that they're being built not only the Russian Navy but also new ones for Vietnam and Venezuela.They will also come in at 1/3rd the cost of a new non-AIP Scorpene! In fact,instead of ordering more Scorpenes,at a price of more than $1 billion each,we would be better off in ordering more infinitely better Akula-2s(that can be built faster than our ATVs,of which the SSBN versions our top priority) and at a cheaper cost!

PS:The Amur/Lada is also now sorted out,with Russian funding for more subs.This should also be evaluated for performance against any upgraded Kilo.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Jun 2013 18:59

if we go for 636 on no account should be ask for any mods like a brahmos plug or AIP. just buy the existing design.

there is anyways no need for brahmos on our SSK , torpedo tube launched klubs are enough. the limited speed of SSK means they will not be suited to seas near china in attack role no matter what they carry.

I am afraid only a fleet of proper SSN gives us good underwater teeth vs china. do we really want to spend tens of billions countering the nonexistent sea threat from TSP? a perfect example of preparing to fight the last war better

purists might argue AIP equipped SSKs could wait near indonesia and play havoc on PLAN shipping using HWT and ASMs....but remember once a SAG steams at full speed, the SSK needs to be in exactly the right ambush spot to get any shot at all.....it is too slow to relocate and refire and too slow to catch the SAG in a running tail chase. I read as part of wartime SOP, the moment navy ships get out harbour, they sprint up to full speed to leave behind any waiting subs in their wake (SSK) or force SSNs to go fast and noisy which ASW assets can detect more easily.
Last edited by Singha on 09 Jun 2013 20:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Jun 2013 20:46

Brahmos on conventional SSK beyond model displayed by Brahmos corp is a non-starter , the sub launched Brahmos would be slightly heavier then land model and carying useful number of 5-6 Brahmos in VLS plug in in conventional SSK would make the submarine heavier , draggier and reduce its top speed and range.

Brahmos are more appropriate for larger nuclear submarine like Arihant class SSBN which do not have these constrains.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 09 Jun 2013 22:23

The more I think about it, the more I feel that Brahmos on Submarines, is good to read but impractical.

In case of an SSK, it would require a 4000 tons heavy sub. Now how many such a sub maybe able to pack in. 6-8 missiles is not that good a size, not enough to overwhelm the enemy. Remember in-case of a surface ship, even though a single ship has 8 missiles, a flotilla of 4 has 32 missiles, which can over whelm the enemy defenses.

In case of an SSN of 4000-6000 tons, we might be better served, by putting in Nirbhay rather than Brahmos. Nirbhay's armed SSN, would provide good long range, stealthy attack options, to hit the enemy deep from the sea. Moreover a VLS which can house one 3 ton Brahmos, can easily fit in 4 Nirbhay. Now a SSN with 8-12 such VLS can unleash, 32-48 Nirbhay's.

We are not going to operate a large armada of nuclear subs. It mainly would a modest number of 4-6 SSBN and 6-10 number of SSN's. We just do not have the numbers to split the SSN fleet into two types, one for Brahmos and one for Nirbhay.

Brahmos as a missile, is a great weapon, but let's not try to fit it in every damn platform that we have. Just like a HWT is the best weapon to sink a missile, it still not the main anti-ship weapon on surface platforms. Similarly the Brahmos is a better fit on the Surface vessels, but not on the subs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_25400 » 10 Jun 2013 05:04

The more I think about it, the more I feel that Brahmos on Submarines, is good to read but impractical.


A sub is a stealthy platform. It's value lies in being able to hide. Brahmos' short range and non-stealthiness* strip off the value of the sub.

[* Any missile launch is non-stealthy, short range means that the sub is closer to the reaction, and has less time to hide.]
[** Brahmos aims for high speed. More energy = hotter plume = heavier missile. More speed = air friction for hotter skin = more detectable. Indian hope is that it will anyway be less defensible due to speed. The US, a country with huge technological base and predilection for spending money like water for defense, has preferred stealth over super high speed in this area. (ICBM provide the ultra high speed anyway). In any case, due to MTCR, no one was/is giving us longer range missiles, and this allowed us to improve our guidance and control capabilities, using the toughest possible (non-indigenous) challenge . A prediction : IMHO Even after induction Brahmos sales performance will not be the best among missiles; even Russia wouldn't see a need for it.]

Brahmos are more appropriate for larger nuclear submarine like Arihant class SSBN which do not have these constrains.

SSBNs are too valuable to send into harm's way (with Brahmos it would be designed for this => not a good idea). Extreme secrecy/stealth is even more of a benefit there. There is a reason why SSBN drive at 5 knots/hr, and not SSK. SSK can be spent like blood and water to prevent an opponent from launching his extreme hurt actions. Not SSBN. And I agree that extreme weight makes Brahmos not ideal for SSK - once we have an alternative ready.

Nirbhay is the game changer, not Brahmos. Brahmos is the necessary step, which still has value (and is derisked)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Neshant » 10 Jun 2013 06:03

SSBN may turn out to be a white elephant sailing the seas.

i.e. Too expensive to put in harms way when needed + wrong type of armaments for the given task.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 10 Jun 2013 06:32

Austin wrote:So we have 12 Scropene Class and advanced Scorpene Class and another 10 636M and upgraded Kilo by 2020-2024 both class with maximum Indian content where ever possible and within the scope it does not delay the project. Not only this would bump up the naval submarine fleet quickly with quality conventional submarine in the next 10 year but will also be cheaper to procure , maintain , train crew and have standard weapon system as far as possible.
I dont foresee we can have more than 3 Arhiant operational class by 2020 all said and done but we can order one more Akula class , so that the two CBG will have one SSN each.


12 scorpene class = 12 Billion (very optimistic estimate if we do not get french fried)
10 636M class = 6 billion (best estimate @ 0.5 billion a piece, no one will never give us a good deal after Scorpene)
Kilo Upgrades = 2 billion (guess)
Total = 20 billion over 8 years, per year is 2.5 billion USD expenditure on submarine fleet

2013~14 expenditure on Capital equipment for the Indian Navy per year = approx. 2 billion (http://www.stratpost.com/graphic-defense-budget-2013)

If we do this then we will have only a submarine fleet and no new surface ships or naval air wing which is not good. The numbers suggest stop scorpene class at 6 (or less) and buy cheaper 636M (or local variant if we had one) + Arihant clones.

Honestly, I am really not sure how we will pay for the P75 by a long shot.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 10 Jun 2013 08:15

14 pilots get their wings on 80th Helicopter Conversion Course - The Hindu
Wings were awarded to 14 pilots - 11 Navy and three Coast Guard pilots - at the Passing-Out Parade of the 80th Helicopter Conversion Course held at the Naval Air Station (NAS), INS Rajali in Arakkonam on Saturday.

Vice-Admiral Bimal Kumar Verma, Chief of Staff, Headquarters, Eastern Naval Command, awarded the wings to the pilots.

He also awarded The Governor of Kerala Rolling Trophy for the best all round trainee pilot to Lt. Ankit Sharma, The Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Naval Command Rolling Trophy for the trainee pilot standing first in order of merit in flying to Midshipman Puneet Kumar, and a book prize for standing first in ground subjects to Lt. Ayush Kumar.

The graduated pilots would be joining operational flights at Mumbai, Port Blair, Goa, Kochi, Visakhapattinam and Daman.

The pilots underwent rigorous training for 21 weeks in flying and aviation subjects at the Helicopter Training School (HTS) INAS 561 located in the NAS at Arakkonam.

The HTS commanded by Commander Ashish Bhargava has graduated 578 pilots for the Indian Navy and Coast Guard till date.

The school was recently awarded ISO 9001:2008 certification. The HTS which was based at Kochi till 1992 was shifted to INS Rajali in Arakkonam, which is the largest operational airbase of the Navy, currently commanded by Commodore Puneet Kumar Bahl.


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Jun 2013 08:29

Look at the MOD/AKA's dithering! The minesweeper contract,to replace our dwindling fleet of minesweepers,where the SoKo boat was chosen,has been languishing for a few years now in the cobwebs and cupboards of the MOD (media report today),impossible to understand after a decision has been taken.One realisess now how even when decisions have been taken (like the appointment of the LCA project chief by the PMO),it is the babus of the MOD who are the supreme power,who can simply make the file "disappear"!
Surely the MOD/DM has a check list of projects/programmes and their status,and once the cabinet/ministry has taken a decision,prompt implementation must neccessarily take place? In such a clear case of dereliction of duty,the Def.Sec.should be fired.

Coming back to the subs,the P-75 is already a victim of non-conflict,sunk by babudom.It is past time for the service chiefs to openly protest about the dereliction of duty by the MOD,etc.They have reached the top,they have nothing to lose.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 10 Jun 2013 09:52

A very important thing to note here. Even though many of us agree to the impracticality of the idea of putting Brahmos onto a submarine, the main take from the idea is, here we have a weapon system, which is designed and built in India ( of course with due collaboration with Russia). Hence the flexibility of coming out with more and more variants of the weapon system to fulfill our different needs. Try to ask a foreign company from which we have procured a missile, to come out with a new variant, boy they sure would take us to the cleaners, event if they condescendingly agree to build the new variant.

Thus, it is only home built products which provide the greatest bang for buck, always.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 10 Jun 2013 13:25

Image

P8-I with 4 Harpoons payload.

I have a noob question. I read that AAM will loose their shelf life if they go on continuous patrols, will missiles like Harpoons suffer the same?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Jun 2013 14:01

there are dummy training rounds for ASMs also.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 10 Jun 2013 21:52

Saya just posted these on DFI. Not sure if they have been seen before. K-15 launch.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/stra ... post744953

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 10 Jun 2013 22:16

barath_s wrote:SSBNs are too valuable to send into harm's way (with Brahmos it would be designed for this => not a good idea). Extreme secrecy/stealth is even more of a benefit there. There is a reason why SSBN drive at 5 knots/hr, and not SSK. SSK can be spent like blood and water to prevent an opponent from launching his extreme hurt actions. Not SSBN. And I agree that extreme weight makes Brahmos not ideal for SSK - once we have an alternative ready.


The minute Brahmos/missile is fired any AEW platform can pick it up especially given the missiles' limited range compared to TLAM or Nirbhay, it would very hard for SSK to get away in the middle of a ocean with their limited submerged speeds.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Jun 2013 23:10

Thats pretty much for any anti-ship missile , exocet , klub ,brahmos .....that does not prevent subs carying these missiles.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 11 Jun 2013 00:15

titash wrote:I understand that. My point was why continue to hang on to a missile with a low kill probability, vintage guidance systems, and whose electronics have been compromised long back? Specially when we've been using the SA-N-7/12 from the same supplier for the last 16 years, and our newest frigates use that missile.

Since we've been docking/upgrading these ships regularly with a view to keeping them in service for 10 more years, why not rip out the remaining SA-N-1 launcher/illuminator and mount a SA-N-7/12 launcher/illuminator & Top Plate instead of STAR.

As Maz said, could it be that the SA-N-1 has been upgraded, and still remains competitive against the newest fighters, cruise missiles, and EW systems? Or does it simply exist to deny the higher altitudes to fighters and maritime patrol aircraft?

I guess more than anything else it is the complexity of the work , associated down time and cost which are preventing the IN from replacing the entire Volna system.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Jun 2013 00:25

Bheesham, They deleted the video.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 11 Jun 2013 01:00

Err..what video? I was just talking of the under water pics of K-15 launch.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Jun 2013 01:13

I meant the pics. Cant see them. Maybe my browser?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 11 Jun 2013 02:50

Try this
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Jun 2013 02:58

He got that as stills from the video posted in Surabh Jah's blog that I linked in Missiles thread. it also has the pontoon that was used for the launch.

Original was posted by some kid from a college.

viewtopic.php?p=1468428#p1468428

Video URL:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 11 Jun 2013 03:02

Didn't see the vids. Good one.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Jun 2013 03:13

I liked best the last part where the map of India comes to light.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 11 Jun 2013 03:39

kmkraoind wrote:...

P8-I with 4 Harpoons payload.

I have a noob question. I read that AAM will loose their shelf life if they go on continuous patrols, will missiles like Harpoons suffer the same?


Yes.

Shelf life - in a climate controlled and shock resistant canister with a system that checks its health at regular intervals (in an off mode); typical shelf life is around 10 to 15 years

On an aircraft - hooked to the electrical of an aircraft (in an on mode) with continuous physical stress from flying conditions such as vibrations, temperature variations, etc.; there is a finite number of times/hours it can be carried

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 11 Jun 2013 04:24

Austin wrote:Thats pretty much for any anti-ship missile , exocet , klub ,brahmos .....that does not prevent subs carying these missiles.


I was referring to using Brahmos for land attack purpose or hitting ships that are docked since we are taking about SSBN, as for AsuW due to sonar limitations you are not going to be firing against target more than 40 nm anything more would require AEW or Satellite targeting.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Jun 2013 07:17

at exactly 6:38 in that video there is a glimpse of the Agni railway wagon with the missile and control systems.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby mody » 11 Jun 2013 12:27

Question with regards to the Navy's requirement for Heavy Weight Torpedo's.
What is the status of the DRDO developed Varunastra torpedo? Why can't these we used instead of the Wass or Atlas Electronika torpedo's?

I had asked this question before, but at the time the requirement was cited only for the scorpene project. The explanation offered by some forum members was that the Varunastra matches the dimensions of Russian torpedo tubes, which are apparently longer then the European 533 mm torpedo tubes. Hence the same cannot be used with the scorpenes.

The current requirement, is not only for the scorpene's but also for all surface combatants, including the P15A and P15B destroyers.
Why can't the Indian torpedoes, Thakshak and the follow up Varunastra be used for these applications?

Are any of the Indian light (TAL) or Heavy Torpedos being used by the navy currently? If not, then the obvious question is why not? Are they just rudimentary, efforts, barely matching the performance of the existing old Russian torpedoes in service with the Navy or are they still not mature enough to be fielded as weapon systems.

Pratyush
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 11 Jun 2013 12:37

Looking at the images of the SLBM being fired from under water. I get the feeling that the under water launcher is an exact replica of the missile firing tube of the Arihant.

Only the DRDO can confirm or deny my feeling :((

Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 13 Jun 2013 23:35

Interesting update on Russian IL-38 upgrades,detection range now 320km.
Our IL-38SDs have a lot of useful life in them and are cost effective performing the "low and slow" task prosecuting subs.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnava ... 30613.aspx

Russia Plays Catch Up

June 13, 2013: A year after receiving its first upgraded Il-38N maritime reconnaissance aircraft the Russian recently navy ordered more of its remaining IL-38s to be upgraded to the IL-38N standard. The Russian Navy only has about 18 IL-38s operational. These four engine aircraft are roughly equivalent to the American P-3s, but have not had their sensors and communications equipment updated since the Cold War. Only 59 were built between 1967 and 1972. This upgrade has already been installed on five Indian IL-38s a decade ago, but it took until 2010 to get the upgrade working reliably. Getting the upgrade for more Russian aircraft was mainly a matter of finishing development and then getting the money. The Il-38N upgrade was first proposed in the 1980s, but the end of the Cold War and a shortage of money delayed work for decades.

There have been several more upgrades since the Il-38N was first proposed to India in 2001. These were major upgrades of an aircraft that had been in service since the 1960s. The latest upgrades enable the aircraft to detect ships within 320 kilometers. There is also a new thermal (heat) sensor, more powerful computers, and increased capability in all sensors.

Existing Il-38Ns can detect surface vessels and aircraft and submarines up to 150 kilometers away. Sensors carried include a synthetic aperture/inverse synthetic aperture radar (for night and fog operations), high-resolution FLIR (forward-looking infrared), LLTV (low light television) camera, ESM (electronic support measures) system, and a MAD (magnetic anomaly detector). The aircraft can carry anti-ship missiles, in addition to torpedoes, bombs, depth charges, and electronic decoys.

The Il-38N is a 63 ton, four engine turboprop aircraft with a crew of ten, endurance of about ten hours, and it can carry nine tons of weapons. The 63 ton American P-3 has very similar characteristics. Russia built 176 Il-38s while the U.S. built over 600 P-3s. The Indians are replacing their Il-38s with the new American P-8, a twin engine jet based on the American B-737 transport. The P-8s are replacing all the American P-3s as well.

member_26965
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_26965 » 14 Jun 2013 14:25

Mumbai and JNPT ports widening hampered due to vintage bombs

http://frontierindia.net/mumbai-and-jnp ... tage-bombs

INS Vikramaditya can come in full load with 12 m draft as the channels are going to be 14 m draft. But with tidal window.

suryag
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby suryag » 14 Jun 2013 19:52

Once again the Russians doing research at our cost and reaping the benefits. Why dont people understand this simple fact that when we buy foreign we are arming them indirectly. What is the guarantee that the IL-38 wont be sold to China.

NRao
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 14 Jun 2013 20:06

Interesting:

Poster wrote:Our IL-38SDs have a lot of useful life in them ..................................


And the very article that he posted:

The Indians are replacing their Il-38s with the new American P-8, a twin engine jet based on the American B-737 transport.


The IN does not seem to think the IL-38s are that good?

nachiket
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 14 Jun 2013 23:43

The P-8s are supposed to replace the Bears, not the IL-38s.


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