Indian Naval Discussion

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 15 Jun 2013 01:45

^^^^^
IN Bears have been upgraded in Russia in 2010-2011. They are going to be service at least till 2020.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jun 2013 04:32

For sure both of them are slated to be replaced. They both have limited life remaining. The 38's were upgraded between 2006-10 and were expected to last another 15 years (2021-25) - which is not too far of. At 5 + 8, they are a small number to replace. The only factor I would like in the Bear is the area it covers - yes that is something very desirable.

But for me to retain the Russian assets I would need more than them increasing the radar's range every two years, substituting with a better computer (yawn) and providing a new coat of paint - just not cut it. (Even their IL-476 is not worth it IMHO.)

IN has 8 P-8Is, expected to get another 4 (options) and perhaps another 12 after that. And with other assets I just do not see a need for the Russian machines which have performed their function very well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2013 06:10

IN Bears were not upged. Rus asked for $900 million and we refused. they have ASW Kit only now, no ASuW or ELINT kit. far less versatile than the P3 which has umpteen variants, rolling upgrades and a huge user base.
huge endurance is no use in such a uncomfortable plane without the required sophisticated gear to sniff out subs and target ships.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 15 Jun 2013 16:18

Philip wrote:Interesting update on Russian IL-38 upgrades,detection range now 320km.
Our IL-38SDs have a lot of useful life in them and are cost effective performing the "low and slow" task prosecuting subs.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnava ... 30613.aspx

Russia Plays Catch Up

June 13, 2013: A year after receiving its first upgraded Il-38N maritime reconnaissance aircraft the Russian recently navy ordered more of its remaining IL-38s to be upgraded to the IL-38N standard. The Russian Navy only has about 18 IL-38s operational. These four engine aircraft are roughly equivalent to the American P-3s, but have not had their sensors and communications equipment updated since the Cold War. Only 59 were built between 1967 and 1972. This upgrade has already been installed on five Indian IL-38s a decade ago, but it took until 2010 to get the upgrade working reliably. Getting the upgrade for more Russian aircraft was mainly a matter of finishing development and then getting the money. The Il-38N upgrade was first proposed in the 1980s, but the end of the Cold War and a shortage of money delayed work for decades.

There have been several more upgrades since the Il-38N was first proposed to India in 2001. These were major upgrades of an aircraft that had been in service since the 1960s. The latest upgrades enable the aircraft to detect ships within 320 kilometers. There is also a new thermal (heat) sensor, more powerful computers, and increased capability in all sensors.

Existing Il-38Ns can detect surface vessels and aircraft and submarines up to 150 kilometers away. Sensors carried include a synthetic aperture/inverse synthetic aperture radar (for night and fog operations), high-resolution FLIR (forward-looking infrared), LLTV (low light television) camera, ESM (electronic support measures) system, and a MAD (magnetic anomaly detector). The aircraft can carry anti-ship missiles, in addition to torpedoes, bombs, depth charges, and electronic decoys.

The Il-38N is a 63 ton, four engine turboprop aircraft with a crew of ten, endurance of about ten hours, and it can carry nine tons of weapons. The 63 ton American P-3 has very similar characteristics. Russia built 176 Il-38s while the U.S. built over 600 P-3s. The Indians are replacing their Il-38s with the new American P-8, a twin engine jet based on the American B-737 transport. The P-8s are replacing all the American P-3s as well.

In other words,India pays for the development of the upgrades and Russiona Navy "adopts" those updates, without of course paying / thanking India. Nothing unusual, I suppose

Which anti-ship missiles are carried by the IL 38s of Indian Navy ? Any photos to prove the claims ?

K

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Jun 2013 16:20

^^^

The 38s were upgraded to fire the sea eagles. That is documented clearly and photos exist on the BRF as well. But I think that the 38s should not be upgraded beyond the sea dragon upgraded already conducted on them.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 15 Jun 2013 16:33

Pratyush wrote:^^^

The 38s were upgraded to fire the sea eagles. That is documented clearly and photos exist on the BRF as well. But I think that the 38s should not be upgraded beyond the sea dragon upgraded already conducted on them.

There were trials (and a photograph too) of Sea Eagle from IL 38s. But has Sea Eagle become a standard weapon on IL 38 ? And Sea Eagle may be de-commissioned soon !!!

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 15 Jun 2013 20:34

Kersi D wrote:
Philip wrote:Interesting update on Russian IL-38 upgrades,detection range now 320km.
Our IL-38SDs have a lot of useful life in them and are cost effective performing the "low and slow" task prosecuting subs.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnava ... 30613.aspx

[==quote==]Russia Plays Catch Up

June 13, 2013: A year after receiving its first upgraded Il-38N maritime reconnaissance aircraft the Russian recently navy ordered more of its remaining IL-38s to be upgraded to the IL-38N standard. The Russian Navy only has about 18 IL-38s operational. These four engine aircraft are roughly equivalent to the American P-3s, but have not had their sensors and communications equipment updated since the Cold War. Only 59 were built between 1967 and 1972. This upgrade has already been installed on five Indian IL-38s a decade ago, but it took until 2010 to get the upgrade working reliably. Getting the upgrade for more Russian aircraft was mainly a matter of finishing development and then getting the money. The Il-38N upgrade was first proposed in the 1980s, but the end of the Cold War and a shortage of money delayed work for decades.

There have been several more upgrades since the Il-38N was first proposed to India in 2001. These were major upgrades of an aircraft that had been in service since the 1960s. The latest upgrades enable the aircraft to detect ships within 320 kilometers. There is also a new thermal (heat) sensor, more powerful computers, and increased capability in all sensors.

Existing Il-38Ns can detect surface vessels and aircraft and submarines up to 150 kilometers away. Sensors carried include a synthetic aperture/inverse synthetic aperture radar (for night and fog operations), high-resolution FLIR (forward-looking infrared), LLTV (low light television) camera, ESM (electronic support measures) system, and a MAD (magnetic anomaly detector). The aircraft can carry anti-ship missiles, in addition to torpedoes, bombs, depth charges, and electronic decoys.

The Il-38N is a 63 ton, four engine turboprop aircraft with a crew of ten, endurance of about ten hours, and it can carry nine tons of weapons. The 63 ton American P-3 has very similar characteristics. Russia built 176 Il-38s while the U.S. built over 600 P-3s. The Indians are replacing their Il-38s with the new American P-8, a twin engine jet based on the American B-737 transport. The P-8s are replacing all the American P-3s as well.
[/==quote]==

In other words,India pays for the development of the upgrades and Russiona Navy "adopts" those updates, without of course paying / thanking India. Nothing unusual, I suppose

Which anti-ship missiles are carried by the IL 38s of Indian Navy ? Any photos to prove the claims ?

K

What is the logic here? What should be Indians doing about it? Should not be money invested in creating/maintaining competition instead of supporting monopolies, especially when the same monopolies are supporting terrorists/jehadis for decades? Russians have been friends and strategic partners so whats wrong in it?

When Indians are keeping the Rafael line open by purchase what should have been done there by Indians? Will not that be used any further by the French? What about thanks?

The Americans are selling pakis f-16 with engines from same company that we are buying for LCA. Should not that be factored at all and how much?

We need much more clarity on this issue for people will talk about it.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 18 Jun 2013 12:57

Indian Navy concerned over depleting submarine fleet.

The bad news just got worse. Six Scorpene submarines, which were meant to be delivered by 2016, are further delayed. The first was expected in 2012. The first of these boats will now be inducted into the Navy in 2016. The reason: bureaucratic delay on part of the Department of Defence Procurement and the Mazagaon Docks Limited (MDL) in finalising the purchase of the equipment to be fitted into the boat and these include the sensors, propulsion systems etc.

The order is not likely to be completed before 2022.

Even now, there is no clarity on what kind of torpedoes are to be fitted into these boats.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jun 2013 14:07

The Torpedoes to be procured for Indian Scorpene is Black Shark Torpedo and about 100 Black Shark are to be procured but they have delayed the signing since the torpedo maker is part of Finmeccanica company which is under investigation in VVIP Chopper Scam.

From the news it appears the first Scorpene will come in 2016 a year delay over the revised schedule of 2015 and the last submarine will come in 2022 , thats about 6 years for 6 subs.

The cost is also revised the report says "The initial cost of the six submarines was pegged at Rs. 18,000 crore. With the delay, the cost is now pegged at least Rs. 24000 crore."

How much would 24000 crore be in USD ? Should give an idea how much each Scorpene cost minus its weapons.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jun 2013 14:26

around $5 billion.

John · Post by **John** » 18 Jun 2013 20:08

All said and done these subs will top billion each which i been echoing since the day the deal is signed, as we found out over and over again the final cost of any indigenous built product is at least 2.5 times the original budgeted cost. You figure by now they will little more realistic with these projected costs'.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2013 23:09

Hindu Slideshow on IN Maritime Museum

LINK

titash · Post by **titash** » 21 Jun 2013 22:33

I have a noob question:

We have 4 Khukri class and 4 Kora class corvettes. In terms of sensor/weapons fit as well as mission profile, they are essentially enlarged Tarantul/Veer class boats. Why then do they have a helipad only (no hangar)?

Seems like a waste of real estate for ships that have no ASW mission profile or equipment; unless they're actively training in ASW as floating airfields...

Thanks,

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Khukri03.jpg

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 Jun 2013 00:10

Corvettes historically have been used as cheap escorts to protect SLOC & protect convoy. India planned a class of 12 corvettes. Khukri class was to be Anti Surface. Kora class Anti Air. Kamorta class ASW. In the absence of Trishul, Kora was built as Anti Surface too. Kamorta has evolved to a whole new being.

Another role was expendable attack ships. The K class boats, being gas turbined, have endurance issues. The diesel powered Kukhri & Kora have sufficient range to come in close & lob missiles. The 90's were frugal days.

Kukhri will work collaboratively with ASW corvettes

Arleigh Burke Flight 1 & 11 destroyers dont have hangers either. ASW was provided by Perry class frigates.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 22 Jun 2013 03:24

IAC to be floated on Aug 12.

The order book position as on June 21 is 25 ships consisting of 20 fast patrol vessels, 3 offshore support ships for Indian and foreign owners and 1 buoy tender vessel for the Department of Lighthouses and Lightships.

Subramaniam pointed out that the aircraft carrier of the Indian Navy will be floated on August 12 by the Union Defence Minister A. K. Antony.

It will be taken to the repair dock for installing ski-jump on the vessel after which weapon systems and trials would be held.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jun 2013 22:26

For Vishal config, is it necessary to have flat-top? EMAL option I guess should be considered with a tech gen skip approach.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jun 2013 15:56

June 29 will handover IN third frigate Trikand (« Bow "), thereby completing the construction of a series of Project 11356 ships for the Navy

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 26 Jun 2013 03:59

India-made aircraft-carrier to test waters in Aug.

The Indian Navy’s indigenously built aircraft carrier, which is under construction at the Cochin Shipyard, will be launched on August 12 by Union Defence Minister A. K. Antony.

The carrier will be floated out of the shipyard on August 12 and taken to the repair dock to carry out remaining work. The hull work for the vessel will be over by June next year, by when the ship will be ready for trials. The vessel will be inducted into the Navy by January 2018, Commodore K. Subramaniam, Chairman and Managing Director, Cochin Shipyard, said.

India is the fifth country in the world to design and construct an air defence ship. The yard has been working with the navy for over seven years in building this vessel, he said.

Describing the construction of the carrier as a significant achievement for the yard, he said this was the most challenging task that it had undertaken so far. According to Subramaniam, this is the first time the yard is constructing a warship.

As the specifications for commercial vessels and warships are different, there are only a few yards in the country where both can be constructed.

The shipyard had signed the contract for the construction of the aircraft carrier with the Navy in 2007 and the keel was laid in February 2009.

Subramaniam pointed out that negotiations with the navy for the second phase of the aircraft carrier are complete and the contract will be signed after getting Cabinet approval. The design of the ship is happening along with its construction, so the shipyard is hopeful of delivering the vessel by 2018, he said.

Sources say that the aircraft carrier, which weighs 40,000 tonnes and has 20,000 tonnes of steel, is estimated to cost $4-5 billion.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 26 Jun 2013 12:00

Vikramaditya scheduled to sail on 3 July.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jun 2013 04:31

The sting in the Scorp's tali is supposed to be closer to 30,000 cr. rather than 24,000!

http://www.stripes.com/china-s-naval-as ... e-1.226669

Good viewpoint on China's naval ambitions.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 27 Jun 2013 04:57

Vipul wrote:India-made aircraft-carrier to test waters in Aug.
...

Sources say that the aircraft carrier, which weighs 40,000 tonnes and has 20,000 tonnes of steel, is estimated to cost $4-5 billion.

Wow! The Nimitz Class carriers (100k tons) cost an estimated $4.5 billion on average. The UK carriers (60K tons) cost about the same. At 40K tons this is more expensive than both. Are the numbers correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz-cla ... te_note-41

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2013 07:47

the latest one CVN 77 (USS Bush) cost $6.2 billion.

but remember they have been building to the same basic design for 30 years now....all the shipyard cost, food chain of component suppliers is all paid for and amortized somewhere.....its not a fair comparison to new design low volume ships like the ADS or QE2/PA2.

Ajit.C · Post by **Ajit.C** » 27 Jun 2013 17:09

From Zee News
Naval ship INS Taragiri bows out of service

Mumbai: Indian naval ship INS Taragiri, the last of the six British-designed but indigenously built Nilgiri class frigates, will bow out of service Thursday after 33 years of glorious service to the nation, an official here said.

INS Taragiri, christened after a hill range in the Garhwal Himalayas, was commissioned May 16, 1980, and was the youngest of her sister ships -- Nilgiri, Himgiri, Dunagiri, Udaygiri and Vindhyagiri.

Cdr. Rahul Shankar, an alumnus of the National Defence Academy, Pune, and Defence Services Staff College, Wellington, is INS Taragiri's 27th and last commanding officer.

The Nilgiri class frigates were the advanced versions of the Leander class of British-designed frigates and built for the Indian Navy by Mazagaon Dock Ltd, Mumbai.

When the first ship in the class, INS Nilgiri, was commissioned into the Indian Navy in 1972, it became a trend-setter as they incorporated increasingly higher levels of indigenization, state-of-the-art technology, weapons and sensors of that era, the official said.

Later, INS Taragiri and INS Vindhyagiri, the last two ships in that class, were significantly modified with the addition of a Seaking anti-submarine helicopter, A244S 321mm triple torpedo tubes and a Bofors anti-submarine twin barrel mortar.

Recognising the ship's considerably enhanced and potent anti-submarine capabilities, the ship's crest depicts a Pallas fishing eagel, a predatory Indian bird found in the foothills of Taragiri hills, signifying that INS Taragiri was "ready to pounce at the enemy underwater," the official added.

In recent years, it was also fitted with advance ship control systems to facilitate control of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles.

Thus, she retained her "cutting edge and functioned as the eye of the Western Naval Fleet for surveillance at extended ranges, blue water operations and network centric warfare, as also the chosen platform for coastal patrolling and anti-piracy operations," the official said.

The solemn de-commissioning ceremony will be held later in the afternoon in Mumbai, the official added.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jun 2013 00:00

New Delhi Issues Surface Surveillance Radar Bid

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Jun 2013 01:28

^^ Production orders for the Revathi 3D Radar as mentioned in Techfocus issue (April).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jun 2013 17:24

I wonder why they are just getting an SSR from outside if DRDO can deliver Revathi they could as well deliver the SSR.

vic · Post by **vic** » 28 Jun 2013 17:34

IAC has been sanctioned around Rs. 3000 + escalation of 2000 crores, how and when did the DDM make it Rs. 30,0000 crore is unknown. Perhaps after a few drinks with import lobby.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 28 Jun 2013 18:46

It appears BEL - DRDO might pitch for Revathi. Since the private sector can quote, it seems to be an open tender. The radar has to be made in India confirming tor DPP rules.

titash · Post by **titash** » 28 Jun 2013 23:47

Gents,
From the DRDO/LRDE page, their areas of work are stated as:

Army:
Multifunction Phased Array Radar and 3D Surveillance Radar for Akash Missile Weapon System
Low Level Light weight 2D Radar for mountainous terrain Air Defence
3D -Tactical Control Radar for Air Defence
Short Range Battle Field Surveillance Radar
Weapon Locating Radar
Multi Mission Radar (MMSR)
FOPEN Radar
Through wall detection Radar
Ground Penetration Radar

Air Force:
Multifunction Phased Array Radar and 3D Surveillance Radar for Akash Missile Weapon System
Active Phased Array Radar for AEW&C
Low level 2D Air Defence Radar
3D Low Level Light Weight Radar
3D Medium Range Surveillance Radar for Air Defence
4D Active Array Medium Power radar for AD role
Airborne Electronically Scanned Array Radar for Tejas Mark II
Ground Controlled interception
SAR for UAVs

Navy:
Maritime Patrol Radar for fixed and Rotary Wing Aircraft
Maritime Patrol Radar with RS and ISAR
3D Medium Range Surveillance Radar for ASW Corvettes
Multifunction Phased Array Radar for Air Defence Ship
Maritime Patrol Airborne Radar for UAV
Coastal Surveillance Radar (CSR)

Regarding the items in bold italics, We know that the Revathi will be the primary radar on the P-28 ASW corvettes. But what about the "Multifunction Phased Array Radar for Air Defence Ship"...I thought the IAC-1 was to have the ELTA EL/M-2248 STAR and the Barak-2. Is this a new development?

titash · Post by **titash** » 28 Jun 2013 23:50

tsarkar wrote:Corvettes historically have been used as cheap escorts to protect SLOC & protect convoy. India planned a class of 12 corvettes. Khukri class was to be Anti Surface. Kora class Anti Air. Kamorta class ASW. In the absence of Trishul, Kora was built as Anti Surface too. Kamorta has evolved to a whole new being.

Another role was expendable attack ships. The K class boats, being gas turbined, have endurance issues. The diesel powered Kukhri & Kora have sufficient range to come in close & lob missiles. The 90's were frugal days.

Kukhri will work collaboratively with ASW corvettes

Arleigh Burke Flight 1 & 11 destroyers dont have hangers either. ASW was provided by Perry class frigates.

Thanks tsarkar-ji

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Jun 2013 08:25

^^ Those are commercial surface navigation radars, since naval ships when not at war will be patrolling crowded Sea Lanes of Communications against Pirates or Terrorists, and using military radars in such scenarios will not be advisable. Soviets used to fit trawlers with ELINT kits and I'm sure the Chinese are not behind. Let DRDO focus on the military stuff.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 29 Jun 2013 19:56

India inducts new power-packed stealth frigate

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Jun 2013 15:56

Do not recollect this piece of news from a couple of months back being posted here.

Contract to power the 4 Project 15 B (P15B) destroyers has been won by Zorya Mashproekt:

16/04/13

SE “Zorya”-“Mashproject” will deliver marine power plants to India

SE “Zorya”-“Mashproject” signed the contract with Indian customer for delivery of gas turbine power plants for ships that will be built at Mumbai shipyard. The contract is concluded with the parties following the results of the tender of 2012. Under the terms of the contract the enterprise will equip four new ships (Project 15B) during the period of 2016 to 2019.

The enterprise already equips the third series of such ships. In 1993-1995 the power units were delivered to India for three ships of the Project 15 (Delhi type) and in 2005-2006 for three ships of the Project 15A (Kolkata type).

The enterprise will produce an updated gas turbine power unit with microprocessor control system.

Clicky

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 30 Jun 2013 22:35

Craig Alpert wrote:India inducts new power-packed stealth frigate

Now IN has got last of 9 of these kirvak(sp?) class ships inducted. Now we have nothing ( frigates)in the pipeline that will get inducted in next 5-10 years? Next batch of frgates will be 7 new gen design which exist only on paper as of now. This clearly indicates that Russian are going to be contracted for another batch of kirvaks to keep inducting ships in the meanwhile. I don't think we'll see first P17A getting inducted in next 10 years

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jun 2013 22:42

any clues if the P15B will be same as P15A superstructure, size and layout or a totally new design?

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 30 Jun 2013 23:57

Singha wrote:any clues if the P15B will be same as P15A superstructure, size and layout or a totally new design?

Russia to help India build 4 guided-missile destroyers

The four Project 15B destroyers are essentially upgraded Project 15A ships, with changes in the superstructure that will improve stealth and include better sound and infrared suppression systems. The displacement of each Project 15B ship will be about 8,000 tonnes and they will operate two helicopters.

The Project 15B ships will be armed with the Nirbhay land attack cruise missile, which has a 1,000 km range, the hypersonic Brahmos-2 anti-ship cruise missile, with a 300 km range and Extended Range Surface to Air Missile also known as Barak 8ER, which has a 120 km range.

The 8000 tonnes is probably a typo more likely to be 7000 tonnes.

The Porject 15B Upgrade

The Project 15B vessel will retain the hull form of Kolkata class destroyers and most of its systems, there will be some significant upgrades. For example, some structural changes in the superstructure will improve stealth and include better sound and infrared suppression. The Project 15B will aslo differ from the Project 15A through employing a fully flush deck. This will improves stealth because of the smoothness of the overall deck with far fewer angles and corners. The displacement of each Project 15B will be approximately 7,000 tons, a 200 ton addition pover the Porject 15A Kolkatas.

John · Post by **John** » 01 Jul 2013 04:12

Snehashis wrote:The 8000 tonnes is probably a typo more likely to be 7000 tonnes.

I don't think it is typo, I won't be surprised even if P-15A approach that displacement full load. To put into perspective Shivalik is over 6000 tonnes, if it incorporates some of those elements from P-17 along with fully enclosed mast and much heavier armament it may even exceed those displacement figures.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2013 15:34

they ought to try keeping inclined tubes for 8 nirbhay amidships near the funnel, freeing up the entire 64 cell front VLS for Barak8 and another 8-16 deeper brahmos VLS just behind the SAMs. hopefully the brahmos tube can also take nirbhays in front.

just on top or ahead of the helicopter hanger could be added a big Barak1++ array of say 32 cells. or distribute them into 4x8 units along the sides.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 02 Jul 2013 05:29

^^^ That's a hell of a lot of SAM on a destroyer, our SDRE destroyers have not been armed like this till now. For an armament package like this we will have to envisage a 10K Tonne+ vessel which would most likely be in the Cruiser category. Maybe we will get there someday, for that our politicos need to grow a spine and our shipyards need to literally and figuratively cleanup their act.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2013 07:21

while the first priority should be rolling out masses of the ASW oriented P28 and its follow on class, the second priority will need to be dedicated AAW DDGs that can network together and take on squadron sized strikes by Su30MKK , F16 armed with mix of subsonic and supersonic ASMs and ARMs. that naturally means Hawkeye/Phalcon is also needed for early warning.

else our ops are going to be resricted in scope once the cheen deploy a couple of carriers.