Indian Naval Discussion

[anishns]

Wouldn't knowing to swim be one of the pre-requisites before joining the navy?
Unless there is more to the story....

Warship captain sacked after misguided order leads to death

New Delhi: The captain of the INS Talwar, a frontline frigate of the Indian Navy, has been removed from command after his order caused the death of a young officer at sea.

Captain Rahul Parmar allegedly ordered young officers on board his ship to dive into the sea off the coast of Gujarat. He allegedly wanted to test their bravery and readiness for emergencies. One of them- a sub-lieutenant and the youngest officer on the ship - drowned. The tragedy occurred on December 20.

The INS Talwar was on patrol duty; it has been used for anti-piracy operations in the recent past.

A Board of Inquiry has been completed by the Navy; it has asked for the removal of Captain Parmar.

[tsarkar]

“Some blame Mulla for reducing speed of the ship that led to the attack. It was not his decision, but of an engineer specially deployed by the administration

The engineer in all probability would have been Lt. V K Jain
http://indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/trans2em ... _sonar.htm

In 1970, another young electrical officer, Lieutenant VK Jain, having just returned from a course in Britain, started working with the BARC Team on improving sonar signal processing. During 1971, Lieutenant Jain tried out the BARC modification kit at sea. The trials were encouraging and he was working on further improving it when the war broke out in December 1971. Lieutenant Jain prevailed upon the Command Headquarters at Bombay to let him embark with his modification in Khukri when she was sailed for an anti submarine operation. During the next two days and until the Khukri was torpedoed and sunk, the modification kit was connected up. The submarine carried out its attack undetected.

My admiration and respect for Captain Mulla just keeps getting deeper. To reconstruct the events of that night, Capt. Mulla and his obsolete ships deploy against a modern French submarine, with state of the art sonar and torpedoes.

Typically surface ships cruise at speeds four times the speed of dived submarines, and this prevents submarines from effectively tracking them. However, instead of taking this defensive posture and evading PNS Hangor, Captain Mulla takes an offensive posture.

He slows down and sails in a pattern to give Lt Jain a fighting chance to detect the Pakistani submarine on his experiemental sonar. He knows fully well that his slowing down and executing a grid search pattern will enable the Pakistani submarine to track him, and yet he still took that chance and batted on front foot.

There is no greater bravery than being fully aware of the odds stacked against oneself, yet squaring shoulders & looking at adversity straight in the eye with the chin up. May the almighty bless the souls of Capt. Mulla, Lt. Jain and the other warriors of that valiant crew.

[Nihat]

Warship captain sacked after misguided order leads to death

New Delhi: The captain of the INS Talwar, a frontline frigate of the Indian Navy, has been removed from command after his order caused the death of a young officer at sea.

Captain Rahul Parmar allegedly ordered young officers on board his ship to dive into the sea off the coast of Gujarat. He allegedly wanted to test their bravery and readiness for emergencies. One of them- a sub-lieutenant and the youngest officer on the ship - drowned. The tragedy occurred on December 20.

The INS Talwar was on patrol duty; it has been used for anti-piracy operations in the recent past.

A Board of Inquiry has been completed by the Navy; it has asked for the removal of Captain Parmar.

Will this former captain not be tried in court for needlessly putting an officers life at risk and indirectly contributing to his death.

After all the goodwill the navy generates , one off events such as these can really put off young men and women who aspire to join the navy if proper justice is not served.

[Sid]

^^ I am pretty sure there is more to this story then what is being reported here, may be just a small slice of truth.

[VijayV]

About INS Talwar incident.
"http://livefist.blogspot.com/2012/01/i ... d-of.html"
Here it says. It was excise about " a sea swimming survival drill in the Arabian Sea, which involved officers and sailors jumping from the ship and rapidly swimming 50-meters away, simulating a jump-ship in the event of a hit or other accident. "

But "Sub Lt Kumar jumped, but failed to surface (ironically, he was a seasoned swimmer, ex-NDA). Elaborate search operations were conducted but he couldn't be found. First designated missing, he was later designated dead. On the ship's return, Captain Parmar was relieved of command. The navy has, however, said that the CO has been asked to step aside only so that the investigation isn't prejudiced."

[Aditya_V]

“Some blame Mulla for reducing speed of the ship that led to the attack. It was not his decision, but of an engineer specially deployed by the administration

The engineer in all probability would have been Lt. V K Jain
http://indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/trans2em ... _sonar.htm

In 1970, another young electrical officer, Lieutenant VK Jain, having just returned from a course in Britain, started working with the BARC Team on improving sonar signal processing. During 1971, Lieutenant Jain tried out the BARC modification kit at sea. The trials were encouraging and he was working on further improving it when the war broke out in December 1971. Lieutenant Jain prevailed upon the Command Headquarters at Bombay to let him embark with his modification in Khukri when she was sailed for an anti submarine operation. During the next two days and until the Khukri was torpedoed and sunk, the modification kit was connected up. The submarine carried out its attack undetected.

My admiration and respect for Captain Mulla just keeps getting deeper. To reconstruct the events of that night, Capt. Mulla and his obsolete ships deploy against a modern French submarine, with state of the art sonar and torpedoes.

Typically surface ships cruise at speeds four times the speed of dived submarines, and this prevents submarines from effectively tracking them. However, instead of taking this defensive posture and evading PNS Hangor, Captain Mulla takes an offensive posture.

Saar, the TSP captains book on sinking Khukri reeks with inconsistencies and there are reports that PNS Hangor was in its Base of Karachi Harbour only not on patrol.

Infact, Recently former Navy personal have recently revealed that the Submarine that sunk Khukri was detected a few times but did not surface at all from Dec 3 to Dec 9 and was most probably a US Nuclear sub. It also maintained much Higher speeds that the Hangor could.

This was done IN rule of the seas was completely paralysing Pakistan and trying to change the outcome of the war by reducing the Indian blockade effectiveness and getting supplies to Pakis.

[ramana]

tsarkar, Your account puts the incident in a whole new light.

So the Khukri was hunting for the sub and got torpedoed thrice. And it slowed to allow the experimental sonar signal processing system a fighting chance to detect the other sub.

BTW hats off the IN for demonstrating constant innovation.

[SBajwa]

BTW hats off the IN for demonstrating constant innovation.

most definitely

[harbans]

Lt Cdr VK Jain was an IIT Kgp alumni. IIRC there was a bravery medal too instituted after his name. Some of the older forum members from IIT Kgp (EE) might remember him.

[suryag]

And for the uninitiated A.Paulraj described in the link is the founder of Beceem wireless which made a standalone LTE(4g modem) modem and was later acquired by Broadcom. He was also a prof in Stanford.

[nash]

X-posting from army thread.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/will- ... on/898335/

Will China threat last 2 yrs? FinMin stalls military expansion

Sources said the finance ministry has also blocked the second stage of expansion of India’s first Navy-only bases, INS Kadamba in Karwar along the Karnataka coast. This Rs 13,000-crore plan involves creating more than a dozen piers and more berths which will host, among other ships, India’s next aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, better known as Admiral Gorshkov, which is now being refurbished in Russia.

that spoil my start of the day ...

[kuldipchager]

Infact, Recently former Navy personal have recently revealed that the Submarine that sunk Khukri was detected a few times but did not surface at all from Dec 3 to Dec 9 and was most probably a US Nuclear sub. It also maintained much Higher speeds that the Hangor could.




1971 I use to follow india news lot.It is true that news was that yellow or sub called fargo was in the area.Those name are co-inside with USA N/Subs.It is to bad the US have to sink indian warship when the war was almost over.It was India who give news that it lost the warship.Pakistan say after 4-5 days that it sink warship.In other word if India wuold't say no body will find out that we have lost the warship.I am sure the US will never said it.

[rajanb]

Lt Cdr VK Jain was an IIT Kgp alumni. IIRC there was a bravery medal too instituted after his name. Some of the older forum members from IIT Kgp (EE) might remember him.

Yes, I knew him. He was a year senior and a very smart, brave kid even in college. A pleasure to chat with him. It was with horror when I came to know that he was on the Khukri. A couple of other Navy friends always spoke highly of him.

[Austin]

Russia to hand over nuclear sub to India in January

Russia will hand over the nuclear-powered Akula class attack submarine, the Nerpa, to the Indian Navy “by the end of January,” a source in the United Shipbuilding Corporation said on Friday.

He made the statement in response to Russian media reports that the boat was to he handed over on January 19 as projected earlier.

“The Nerpa will be delivered to the Indian Navy by the end of the month but not on January 19. India has agreed on the acceptance and the boat is completely ready to be handed over,” he said.

[ramana]

tsarkar, If there was no special equipment on board the ship what would have been its normal course of action?

Paul Raj's critique of the basic science behind the experimental equipment is troubling.

[Brando]

Will this former captain not be tried in court for needlessly putting an officers life at risk and indirectly contributing to his death.

After all the goodwill the navy generates , one off events such as these can really put off young men and women who aspire to join the navy if proper justice is not served.

Unless there was some gross dereliction of duty, it is hard to justify an Admirals Mast. As far as the story goes, the Captain was conducting a team building exercise and due to the enthusiasm of a young officer, a tragedy occurred. Stuff happens.

[hnair]

Even more troubling is that adviser chap, who chucked the good Cmdr out of the program. His imprint seem to crop up awkwardly in odd places

[harbans]

Yes, I knew him. He was a year senior and a very smart, brave kid even in college. A pleasure to chat with him. It was with horror when I came to know that he was on the Khukri. A couple of other Navy friends always spoke highly of him.

Fellow hall mate if you consider me a RP'ite (for my brief sojourn there). I know someone who knew him very well. Personally know a few from Kgp who made the IN as career. More highly skilled and Technical people opting for the Armed Forces is a much needed thing in todays world of warfare. There's a need some of them make it to the COAS, CNS etc..or spearhead a strategic command initiative.

[shiv]

Infact, Recently former Navy personal have recently revealed that the Submarine that sunk Khukri was detected a few times but did not surface at all from Dec 3 to Dec 9 and was most probably a US Nuclear sub. It also maintained much Higher speeds that the Hangor could.

This was done IN rule of the seas was completely paralysing Pakistan and trying to change the outcome of the war by reducing the Indian blockade effectiveness and getting supplies to Pakis.

The next step up India needs is a civil/military investment in sea-bed exploration - maybe unmanned submersibles so that the wreck can be examined to look for any clues about the sinking. There is an off chance that the type of torpedo could be found from debris.

[Pratyush]

After all this time finding the definite type of torpedo would be hard.

The South Koreans were lucky that the Chnonan went down in shallow waters and that she was raised relatively soon from the sea bed.

[sum]

Second nuclear submarine headed for year-end launch

Informed sources told The Hindu that the construction of a second Arihant-class nuclear submarine, to be named INS Aridaman, is moving fast at the Shipbuilding Centre (SBC) in Visakhapatnam. It is slated for launch by this year-end or in the first quarter of next year.

“The boat, under outfitting now, is headed for a year-end launch. Meanwhile, hull fabrication is on for the third Arihant-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine,” the sources said. “Unlike surface vessels, submarines are fully outfitted before launch, which makes it a prerequisite for its weapons to be tested and ready well in advance.”

The first submarine of the class, INS Arihant, launched in July 2009, has just completed its harbour acceptance trials and is set to undergo the crucial sea acceptance trials in February.

“This will be followed by weapon trials before the submarine is formally inducted into the Navy, hopefully in 2013, when the country will attain the much-desired nuclear triad,” the sources said. Concurrently, nuclear-powered submarine INS Chakra, borrowed on a 10-year lease from Russia mainly for training purposes, will be inducted in the latter half of 2012.

Troubled by the eroding strength of its conventional underwater arm, the Navy's ‘blue water' aspirations remained in the realm of wishful thinking, with the force failing to add even a single submarine to its inventory in the last decade.

With the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) programme to indigenously design and build nuclear-powered attack submarines gaining momentum after years of indecision and disorientation in the 1990s, the goal, claimed the sources, was within reach now.

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma said last year that once commissioned, INS Arihant would be deployed on ‘deterrent (combat) patrol.'

Although it would be home-ported in Visakhapatnam, the submarine, armed with nuclear-tipped K-15 or B-5 ballistic missiles and having a range of about 750 km, would offer effective deterrence against Pakistan, the sources pointed out.

The missiles are developed under the Sagarika programme.

Displacing about 6,000 tonnes, the 112 metre-long Arihant-class of boomer submarines are powered by indigenously-built 80-MW nuclear power plants. Each submarine is said to store 12 K-15 missiles besides torpedoes and torpedo-launched cruise missiles.

Nerpa only inducted by mid-2013??

[Singha]

read it again - says 2nd half of 2012.

there are plenty of civil deep sea exploration outfits who will find and explore the Khukri wreck....an example being the guys who found the titanic, probably in much deeper water.

[tsarkar]

tsarkar, If there was no special equipment on board the ship what would have been its normal course of action?

There are multiple ASW procedures that would have been carried out, primarily developed by RN in WW2 but learnt by (R)IN during the same time, as well as during exercises.

These would have been better than the grid pattern at slow speed executed by these ships, that allowed Hangor to track Kukhri. Readers should realize warfare is patient business. Hangor tracked Kukhri from morning till evening before it could confidently predict its course.

Even then the first torpedo missed. As Kukhri charged towards the torpedo wake, the second torpedo hit. If the second torpedo too missed, then Kukhri would have closed range sufficiently to depth charge. It was a close call and could have gone either way. Dusk attack helped, because visual sighting of torpedo tracks became difficult.

However given the fact that Pakistani Daphne had a more modern sonar, odds were stacked against Kukhri. Indian Type 14 was built 1955 while Pakistani Daphne was built 1970. There was a 15 year technology gap.

Paul Raj's critique of the basic science behind the experimental equipment is troubling.

Not really, he is being factual. Even Edison failed 99% of the time. No disrespect or shame in that. A3 and A4 missiles both failed in their first firings. Learning from mistakes is the best possible outcome.

Where it goes wrong is that we often build personality cults around "great individual", and when initial indicators appear of things going wrong, instead of undertaking course correction, everyone is in awe, and dares not to upset the scheme of things, and express views contrary to that of the "great individual". Ofcourse, "great individual" can be "great leader", "great scientist", "great general", "great admiral" among others.

The other extreme behavior is peer & public humiliation of those who fail.

Ofcourse, today's India has matured significantly, and barring the media, most of the cross section of the populace avoid both extreme behaviors.

[Austin]

A single ASW ship without any ASW helicopter support and an experimental sonar trying to catch and kill a conventional submarine is really on a suicide mission , the captain of the boat has to be really really lucky or the submarine commander has to be really really stupid to screw things up. It appears the Pakistani sub took its own time to go for the hunt even though he missed the first time , Very Heroic of Captain Mulla and his crew to take this mission.

Even today hunting a single conventional submarine in high seas or littoral environmant devotes a significant surface ship and Air borne ASW asset to try to find it and the odds are still in favour of conventional submarine specially in littoral environment , like the many exercise of US CBG versus conventional submarine fleet in littoral environment has proven the conventional submarine still gets better off most of times.

[chackojoseph]

Naval Aeronautical Engineers pass out of National Institute of Aeronautical Technology

[ramana]

tsarkar thanks for your response. The troubling aspect is not his critique but the issues it raises. Let me articulate it better later.

[Philip]

The Khukri class belonged to the Type 14 Blackwood class "second-rate" ASW frigates.Their main armament was the LIMBO mortar .The Type 14s' limited size, at just 310 ft (94 m), restricted them from continuing past the 1970s and continuing the work as anti-submarine ships. Their small hull limited the extent of modifications and upgrades possible, preventing the Type 14s from being modernised with more effective weapons, effectively rendering them obsolete. All were decommissioned in the 1970s.

(Wik) The LIMBO mortar had a range of only 1000 yds,linked to the ship's sonar.The range of the mortars was controlled by opening gas vents from 400 to a maximum of 1,000 yards (366 and 910 m). The weapon was linked to the sonar system of the ship, firing on command when the target was in range. The rounds were projected so that they fell in a triangular pattern around the target.
The firing of the Mortar Mk 10 was controlled by the Type 170 (and later the 502) attack sonar from the Sonar Control Room (SCR), which was generally located next to the operations room in the warship.
The 170 sonar had 3 operators who maintained sonar contact with the target and effectively aimed the weapon in bearing, range and depth. The operators were controlled by the SCO (Sonar Control Officer) who was in charge of the SCR.
When a contact had been confirmed as a hostile submarine, the SCO manually fired the Mortar Mk 10 from the SCR upon receiving the order from the captain in the operations room. The firing was done by means of a pistol grip and trigger mounted to the deckhead immediately behind the operators.

From the above one can see that the Khukri and her sisters,were outclassed by the Daphne class Hangor,built a decade later.The action was a mismatch. The Daphne's sonar too detected the Khukri at a reported range of between 6-8 nm.Even if the Khukri had detected the sub earlier,LIMBO's range was just 1000yds.In the circumstances ,it was very courageous of the Capt. of the Khukri once the torpedo attacks were detected to go in for the kill ,despite the sub's earlier advantage of attacking first.The absence of a helicopter on these small frigates now virtually obsolete,was a grave shortcoming.In fact barring the Vikrant,none of the IN's surface ships could carry an ASW helo.The Leander's were the first.The IN's warships would have to rely upon speed,a good sonar and luck to avoid a sub's torpedo attacks from succeeding.Had the IN not given its own subs orders not to attack unless the targets were positively identified as belonging to the PN (to avoid an excuse for western powers to come to the aid of Pak),a couple of merchantmen sunk off Karachi would've had a salutary effect upon the operations of the PN and its sub fleet.

[ramana]

war gamers Journal article

Sinking of the INS Khukri

A daughter remembers:

Why they chose to go down with the ship?

[Austin]

From the above article it seems IN and IAF devoted a huge amount of resources in Op Falcon to hunt down the Hangor but without luck

The battle between INS Khukri/Kirpan and Hangor is more like WW2 era Sub/Surface ship battle albeit with sophisticated sonar to aid , Indian Ships lacked stand off weapons like torpedoes hence had to come closer to cause mortal damage to Hangor with its ASW Mortars , Hangor had capable sonars but the fact that its torpedoes failed to explode the first shot at Kirpan and the 3rd one fired was out ran by the same ship probably nothing more then a more sophisticated straight runner torpedoes.

Khukri was indeed unlucky to be hit by the first shot while Kirpan had its own fair of its luck to miss two torpedoes fired at her.

[SagarAg]

^^ Was it due to some evasive measures taken by INS Kirpan or it was just pure luck on there side that both the torpedoes missed it

[Austin]

1971 War: Sinking of the KHUKRI - Vice Adm (Retd) GM Hiranandani

[SagarAg]

Hey Austin thanks for the article.

[kuldipchager]

[i]HANGAR had sailed from Karachi on 22 November for a patrol off the Saurashtra coast. On 1 December, she was ordered to shift to the area off Bombay to relieve her sister submarine MANGRO who was completing her patrol.
On 2 December, HANGAR sighted the Western Fleet which was on its way to its patrol area. HANGAR reported this to Karachi and continued her patrol off Bombay. She was unable to find good warship targets. Thereafter "The Story of the Pakistan Navy" states:[/i]




When Krachi was under attack then these subs were at harbour how these sub were petrolling indian coust.Or if they were petrolling then why they did't attack indian boats to save there ships getting dustroyed by Indian attack.One more time Khakry was hit by Amerian sub.

[SNaik]

Teg at 32+ knots
http://vkontakte.ru/video4338467_161651146?hd=0&t=37s

[Philip]

I frankly have doubts about a US sub sinking the Khukri.Assistance to the PN yes,direct involvement no.Had a decision been taken by the US to sink IN warships and subs to prevent us from defeating Pak in the east,then they would've attacked the Vikrant,whose role in bottling up E..Pak,not allowing in reinforcements or retreats/escapes of Paki troops, was crucial.They would not have embarked upon such a dangerous and controversial act against India for the sake of a small "second rate" ASW frigate,which if it had become known that it was sunk by a US sub,would've seen the Soviets perhaps enter the conflict as some de-classified reports may have suggested.

[SagarAg]

India was well protected by Soviet nuclear subs in the east as far as I have read about the war. The US navy movements in the east was monitored by the Soviets subs trailing them.

[ramana]

[i]HANGAR had sailed from Karachi on 22 November for a patrol off the Saurashtra coast. On 1 December, she was ordered to shift to the area off Bombay to relieve her sister submarine MANGRO who was completing her patrol.
On 2 December, HANGAR sighted the Western Fleet which was on its way to its patrol area. HANGAR reported this to Karachi and continued her patrol off Bombay. She was unable to find good warship targets. Thereafter "The Story of the Pakistan Navy" states:[/i]




When Krachi was under attack then these subs were at harbour how these sub were petrolling indian coust.Or if they were petrolling then why they did't attack indian boats to save there ships getting dustroyed by Indian attack.One more time Khakry was hit by Amerian sub.

Kulidp, It does not follow. The PN subs were already prepositioned across IN bases like PNS Hangor around Mumbai and PNS Ghazi around Vizag way before the actual war was declared on Dec 3. All the sightings were before war was declared and hence they could not take action.

I would suggest your inference is incorrect.

[kuldipchager]

Forum Moderator
ramana Post subject: Re: Indian Naval DiscussionPosted: 16 Jan 2012 10:06



Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 23355 kuldipchager wrote:
[i]HANGAR had sailed from Karachi on 22 November for a patrol off the Saurashtra coast. On 1 December, she was ordered to shift to the area off Bombay to relieve her sister submarine MANGRO who was completing her patrol.
On 2 December, HANGAR sighted the Western Fleet which was on its way to its patrol area. HANGAR reported this to Karachi and continued her patrol off Bombay. She was unable to find good warship targets. Thereafter "The Story of the Pakistan Navy" states:[/i]




When Krachi was under attack then these subs were at harbour how these sub were petrolling indian coust.Or if they were petrolling then why they did't attack indian boats to save there ships getting dustroyed by Indian attack.One more time Khakry was hit by Amerian sub.Kulidp, It does not follow. The PN subs were already prepositioned across IN bases like PNS Hangor around Mumbai and PNS Ghazi around Vizag way before the actual war was declared on Dec 3. All the sightings were before war was declared and hence they could not take action.

I would suggest your inference is incorrect


Mr.Ramana
There was news that russian sub was in the area because British ship try to sneak to krachy for to deliver the wapons but when they see russian sub they go back.

[ramana]

KC, Your arguement is that these subs are in karachi when the IN task force attacked. However from all accounts these subs were aldready underway lurking near Indian harbors way before that date.

Please dont use bold as it implies screaming. Its not polite.

[rajanb]

KC, Your arguement is that these subs are in karachi when the IN task force attacked. However from all accounts these subs were aldready underway lurking near Indian harbors way before that date.

Please dont use bold as it implies screaming. Its not polite.

I know it as a fact, that the PNS Ghazi was reported as being tracked on the morning on the day that the PAF attacked in the evening. Naval HQ advised Vizag to track the Ghazi and update them for further orders till such time that NHQ deemed it appropriate to commence action.

Had a very accurate chaiwallah in those days.