Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vina » 10 Dec 2012 10:57

For ex. a STOVL fighter using STOBAR will be able to carry a lesser payload than a Cat launched aircraft,but the carrier needs not to sail into the wind" when launching and recovering aircraft.The ski-jump on the bow has also been found to give the vessel better sea-keeping qualities,esp. in rough weather.So the pluses and minuses can be juggled around

Oh no, it does need to. That 25 kts is a big difference in safety margin while taking off and landing,especially on hot days with high loads. Even in WWII, with prop planes and straight wings, planes which take off literally like birds, carriers turned into the wind to launch and recover. With the heavier jets of today, no way you can do it otherwise.

As for sea keeping, the carriers deck is pretty high above the wateline and sea keeping is really not an issue. Yes, an angled flight deck will give more freeboard at the deck, I grant that , but it is really not an issue.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishnan » 13 Dec 2012 13:12

http://frontierindia.net/ins-vikramadit ... ing-trials

Indian Aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, formerly the Admiral Gorshkov, traveled 12000 miles during its recent test, which is almost the distance of half the earth. The tests also saw 517 sorties from the aircraft carrier by different types of aircraft, including MiG-29K, Su-33, Kamov helicopter etc. The information was given by Commanding Officer is Captain Suraj Berry, a specialist gunnery officer on the occasion of Navy Day.

INS Vikramaditya INS Vikramaditya travelled 12000 miles, handled 517 flights during trials

INS Vikramaditya. Image: Sevmash
“No other company besides Sevmsha, could undertake such a massive task to repair and upgrade the ship, with a very high level,” said Captain Barry, quoted by Sevmash. Suraj Berry led the Indian crew of the vessel during the test in the harsh conditions of the North Sea this summer. 3 months of sea trials showed Vikramaditya’s good handling characteristics. The ship developed speed 27.9 knots. Experts of the RAC “MiG” praised the ships Ski-Jump, whose geometry can successfully allow aircraft to take-off on the desired trajectory.

The aircraft carrier is currently back in Sevmash for ironing out the deficiencies observed during the trails. As per the revised schedule, Vikramaditya will be back to testing in summer 2013.

Read more: http://frontierindia.net/ins-vikramadit ... z2EutnqgKs

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saje » 13 Dec 2012 15:12

krishnan wrote:
“No other company besides Sevmsha, could undertake such a massive task to repair and upgrade the ship, with a very high level,” said Captain Barry, quoted by Sevmash.


Some how... the above lines reminded me of the below photo. But then I guess it's just my perverted mind.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 14 Dec 2012 01:53

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19816

do we know what percent of the contract worth is the LD on gorshkov is?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Zynda » 14 Dec 2012 15:59

I have a friend who is serving on Trenton. He has worked on other IN ships in the past. I was asking him about Navy's opinion on DRDO developed SONAR. He did not have a whole lot of good to say about HUMSA. He said the real world performance is about less than 1/4th of the range claimed by DRDO.

The effectiveness of SONAR apparently depends on salinity and temperature of the water. Indian tropical waters have high salinity and higher temperatures compared to temperate regions. Any SONAR will experience degredation in tropical waters but DRDO's sonars perform very badly apparently.

I was disappointed to hear this. I know DRDO's sonars aren't best in the world but I was under the impression that Navy is satisfied with its performance, hence repeat orders. My friend says that Navy doesn't have a choice as it is very expensive and difficult to procure good SONAR systems from other countries.

I am hoping the above facts are inaccurate to a large extent. I don't know much about SONAR. Austin or others who have extensive knowledge about Navies could provide information which is contrary to the above? I read that DRDO is continuing to work on 4th generation HUMSA and wants to develop ultra-low frequency SONAR systems. This is the path advanced developers (Thales) have taken and hence a step in right direction!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Dec 2012 17:46

Zynda- there is no ship called INS Trenton- so the info itself looks a bit dubious, considering Amounts we are paying for Chakra, scorpenes, we can well afford good foreign SONARS, so the Navy must be making a decesion based on real world performance and not brochitous.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Zynda » 14 Dec 2012 17:56

Well, he is serving on INS Jalashwa (I was too lazy to look up its latest name and hence mentioned it as Trenton). I hope his info his not from his first hand experience.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 14 Dec 2012 19:36

Thing is that its all about context. India's tropical conditions - which your friend described - mean that all sonars have their performance drastically reduced in the Indian context.

The reason Indian Navy sticks with DRDO sonars over the imports is because they are still customized for Indian conditions and offer equal-better performance than higher priced imports, which face much the same issues, and furthermore, are not even upgraded to newer tech (OEM charges a huge price).

In practical terms, the DRDO sonars have been ok enough to detect and take out an USN boomer in an exercise.

The HUMSA is also superseded, its older gen and right now the HUMSA-NG is in production.

The next sonar is in development for future large platforms, as well.

While things aren't perfect (as mentioned, the conditions in India tropical waters make all sonars have reduced effectiveness), they are not as bleak either as you were concerned about. There is a decent article on the topic here:
http://www.flonnet.com/fl2905/stories/2 ... 510000.htm

Do look at the points about research into salinity & temperature gradients which NPOL has specialized in, in order to improve their sonars and also, the fact that the HUMSA is now out of production with the NG in production.

It will take a few years though before the NG standardizes. Some of the earlier ships would have HUMSA and some, APSOH.

The NG design was put into production in 2008, is now the standard fit on most ships and in another 4-5 years time, the next improved variant will be out.

The NPOL has now developed HUMSA-NG (new generation) and S. Kedarnath Shenoy, scientist, is its architect. The project was completed in just four years – from the drawing board to tests, fitment on a vessel and evaluation, said Anantha Narayanan. He added: “It is a third-generation sonar for surface ships that the NPOL is making. There lies the message.” The message is that it disproves the notion that the DRDO delayed the projects, he said. APSOH took seven years to develop, HUMSA five and HUMSA-NG less than four years. “So the learning curve has enabled us to deliver the products in time, and right now we are ahead of the [availability of the] ships,” the Director added.

Shenoy said that out of 10 HUMSA-NG sonars delivered to the Navy since 2009, three were installed on its ships and the integration of one was under way.


“We are a highly focussed laboratory. We don't do anything outside underwater surveillance,” Anantha Narayanan said. In the Twelfth Plan period (2012-17), the NPOL plans to concentrate on an anti-submarine warfare suite for ships, fourth-generation HUMSA and second-generation Mareech. “We are in continuous upgrade mode because the life of a sonar system is not more than 10 to 15 years,” he said.


The NG will also be complemented by an advanced towed array sonar. Initial Naval fits are using Thales ATAS, but a local design called Nagan is also in trials. This towed array sonar will be both active/passive and offer drastically improved performance over the ship fitted conventional sonars. It uses some of the newest tech that we have, but the Navy will insist on it being as good as it can be made since upgrades are possible in the local context & NPOL/NSTL etc literally operate as Naval establishments.

Net, this is fundamentally the advantage of local production & development, since iterative improvements keep coming out.
In the 80's, DRDO's first generation of radar warners barely met the IAF's requirements but were still comparable to some of the tier 2 stuff that we used to get from foreign firms.

Today, systems have advanced to the point that we have moved EW sourcing almost fully local, ESM/RHAWS/RWRs are completely local. Systems are produced, improved and again produced.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 14 Dec 2012 21:45

The trenton would not carry any DRDO made sonar. In the warm and humid climates of India most of the claims by western manufactures fail badly, thats why we need DRDO or IN to build something suitable for our requirement.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 14 Dec 2012 21:49

Bheeshma wrote:The trenton would not carry any DRDO made sonar. In the warm and humid climates of India most of the claims by western manufactures fail badly, thats why we need DRDO or IN to build something suitable for our requirement.


1000 percent correct
from simple a/c ref compressors (becaue of voltage fluctuations) to WDM2 railway engines (had to increase the size of radiators to cool the engine in 42 degree summer heat around the country) from GM to T-90s to any thing foreign maal hs mal in Indian conditions.

That is why it is Sad to see DRDO floating tenders to make Diesel engines from collobrators..
I feel its a shame on India after 60 yrs we still depend on Foreign collobration even for motor cycle manufacture...

More of my thoughts late in a thread by itself

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 14 Dec 2012 22:13

@ Zynda,

Here is my perspective for what it's worth:

The Navy/Air Force are very capital intensive organizations that make extensive use of hardware/electronics. These pieces of equipment are extremely expensive in terms of costs to the nation (to put things in perspective, 1 submarine of ~ $1 billion = 1000 - 5000 km of new highway construction)

When you put down the money for a new warship, you invest $1 billion with an expectation that it will provide "national security insurance" for 25 years. As threats evolves, the value of this "insurance" diminishes with time and the warship is eventually obsolete in ~ 20 years

So how does one provide continuous "national security insurance" while not bankrupting the nation? The answer is to adopt a mix of:
(1) Brand new warships that can deal with the latest threat perceptions (~ Mirage 2000 to counter PAF F-16s)
(2) 10-15 year old warships that have been upgraded with new sensors/weapons and make up the buld of the fleet (~ BVR equipped Mig-21 Bison Upgrade)
(3) 20-25 year old warships that will probably suffice for patrol duties, anti-piracy, and the most underrated of all naval activities...TRAINING (~ Cannon/R-60 equipped Mig-21 Bis)

The net effect of all this mix of platforms should provide adequete "national security insurance" against Somali Pirates, Pakistani Submarines, Chinese Aircraft Carriers, etc. At the very least, it should provide sufficient deterrance


Now, back to SONAR...

I'd like to have the latest USN / RN ultra-low frequency flank array, towed array SONAR on *ALL* warships. But there are inherent problems:

(1) USN / RuN / RN / FN all maintain fleet ballistic missile submarines that carry their nation's deterrent. Why on earth would they part with their top tier SONAR that can compromise their own deterrent?

(2) Other than the above nations, no one else makes good second tier SONAR with the possible exception of Japan and Germany. All these second tier SONARs are designed by highly paid engineers/scientists and made by highly paid factory workers in first world nations. By default this means first world prices :-)

(3) The life cycle of electronics is significantly shorter than the life cycle of warships. Whereas a warship can be risked in combat for ~ 20 years, the SONAR itself will be of dubious combat value in ~ 10 years

This basically means that SDRE has access only to second tier SONAR capability at exhorbitant prices and need re-capitalization every 10 years at a bare minimum. This will essentially break the bank! Think of how many kms of highway (i.e. drivers of a nation's economy and the well being of its citizens) you can have for that money?


So what is the alternative?

(1) You *must* develop local capability in design and production of electronics. You may start out with a crappy product that can only detect Pakistani Agostas at 3 kms, but the user feedback will give the designer the confidence and knowledge to make iterative improvements and build a product line spanning decades, that will eventually compete with the best

Example: The so called "Poor Quality Asian" Toyota / Honda brands have driven GM / Ford / Chrysler into the ground after 30 years of perseverence. Now Kia is doing the same to Toyota / Honda :-)

How will you ever build a SDRE product line into the league of L3 / Lockheed / Northrop if you give up as soon as the user's reaction to your initial products is "Poor Quality SDRE"???


(2) Remember that the Paulraj's APSOH was better than any second tier SONAR that the british were willig to provide in the 1970s./1980s The HUMSA was the same in the 1990s/2000s. Now that we have more money as a nation, and more "importance" thanks to our nuclear/economic strengths, the west is willing to give us better second tier SONARs that outclass the HUMSA/NAGAN

However, in order to have that western "buy" options continually available to us, we must have comparable desi "make" capabilities. This is the same reason why TSMC charges TI less money to build their chips in TSMC's foundry as compared to say Qualcomm/Broadcom...because TI has an internal "make" capability


Just my 2 cents...

Regards,

Titash

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_22539 » 14 Dec 2012 22:31

^^+1. Every once in a while we have these questions being asked and answers being given as well. It is remarkable how amnesic people are when it comes to these things. But at the same time there is no loss of memory when it comes to every tiny little fault that is ever found in anything Indian. I hope I live to see the day when these attitudes start to vanish.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Zynda » 14 Dec 2012 22:40

KaranM & others,
Thanks for the response.

I apologize If the tone of my post conveyed intent to import SONARs from TFTA countries. That was not my intent at all. I was just surprised to hear the drastic drop in SONAR performance. It is possible that SONARs he is talking about could be APSOH or HUMSA and not the NG variant (my thoughts didn't go in the direction of asking him which variant of SONAR he is referring to!)

Happy to know that HUMSA and NAGIN products are being further developed.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 14 Dec 2012 23:28

Simple pooch
When did Hyundai / Kia start
When did Tata steel start
When did Hindustan motors and telco start

Why is SK ahead
Why is India where it is

Indian problems are structural, mental, and provisional
As long as these remain we will only be king of CKDs and master users of Screw drivers technology

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 14 Dec 2012 23:57

@ pentaiah

Not quite so simple sirjee...the complexities of governing India are far more. India is a composite nation with a very diverse population, and diverging viewpoints. A democracy to boot...that means all these viewpoints must be heard/accomodated on some level

SK enjoys direct superpower protection, has only 1 border, has a very racially homogeneous population (i.e. no internal/religious strife) and was a pseudo democracy for the longest time --> a dictatorship usually means clarity and decisiveness in decision making

We can't just wish away our baggage and say SDRE should be like SK. Doesn't happen that way. Different strokes for different folks

Regards,

Titash

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 15 Dec 2012 00:04

Bhy is Daewoo trucks owned by TATA
Bhy is SSangyong owned by Mahindra
Bhy is Indian sat on moon and ISRO launching sats for france, japan and korea while korea cannot even match NoKo in this regard.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 15 Dec 2012 00:08

To get technology my dear because it hurts to move butt and do it at home
Evn JLR is the same
That's for your byphor aka buyfor kweshion
:P

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 15 Dec 2012 00:11

Exactly. India has to acquire or develop. No massa to donate/provide/sell/license build SM-3/6 or Aegis class ships for poor SDRE only sanctions..Sniff sniff..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 15 Dec 2012 00:48

Hi Zynda, thing is that in some areas - like sonars, radars, EW and missiles - India now has a core development capability which allows it to keep upgrading its systems and put newer ones into service. Things aren't always easy with the 1st and 2nd generations of any platform, the key thing is to continuously invest in making the items better as Titash said.

The first naval submarine sonar + FCS was Panchendriya (on Foxtrot class subs). The USHUS when developed for Kilos had a tough development cycle and finally cleared naval trials in 2011. But the experience has clearly been valuable and would have been leveraged for both Arihant type subs and follow on to the USHUS.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZdvuBM8NjYU/T ... /S-5-2.jpg

But this would be Gen3. Similarly, in radars, EW etc we are now on 4th and 5th Gen products (in terms of our local development cycles), which is how the iterative development process works. I mean, just look at 80's INDRA-1 radar and the AESA systems in development today, the advances made in radar tech are massive. Similarly, SAM-3 when compared to AAD, and latter is in a different class of complexity - both R&D and production of such missiles will drastically benefit from the hard lessons learnt via earlier programs.
Last edited by Karan M on 15 Dec 2012 01:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 15 Dec 2012 00:49

I remember my conversation with a former IA officer who took over the administration of a software company I was associated with. He was totally against the Arjun and said in a one on one with T-90 its class will be shown. In a sense he was right, the higher class of Arjun was shown. Service folks at times can have biases of their own.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_22539 » 15 Dec 2012 01:07

^^+1.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 15 Dec 2012 12:19

Understand navy chief Joshi’s message, shift geopolitical attention to Indian Ocean



Was it fair of the government to brush aside the Navy Day message of navy chief D K Joshi, suggesting that it was a media goof-up? The admiral's message merely conveyed the classical role of any navy such as ours which has a blue water capability. It is universally known that navies are meant to swiftly deploy and operate in any oceanic area where the interests of the nation require it to do so. That has always been the purpose of any navy and China certainly knows this.

Frankly speaking, did not the media get it right when it linked the navy chief 's message to China's aggressive maritime posture? Rather than fault the media, we need to seriously introspect on India's timidity. Why do we always remain on the back foot when dealing with China?

The Chinese debacle of 1962 is now history and the military equation is quite different today. Yet, we are just not able to deal with China on an equal footing. What this recent incident shows is that our inferiority complex does not lie only across the McMahon Line but extends even to India's maritime dimension.

This is indeed ironic, for unlike the landward frontier with China where we find ourselves tactically disadvantaged, the situation at sea is entirely in our favour; we have an immense geographical advantage.

India's geographical location in the Indian Ocean could provide us with strategic leverage which our political leadership ought to bear in mind. With the Indian subcontinent positioned dominantly astride the vital sea lanes of communication (SLOC) - which include China's new silk route through the Indian Ocean - it is not India but China that finds itself on the back foot.

India is unable to exploit its advantage on the maritime front simply because our geopolitical attention remains consumed by the Line of Control and the McMahon Line. Our strategic compulsions vis-a-vis these land frontiers have led to a landlocked mindset, blinding us to the geographical reality that India is actually a maritime country.

In short, other countries like China have learnt to exploit the geographical facts far better than us. Moreover, using the sea is not just a matter of increasing understanding, but above all, a process of building capabilities. That indeed was the essence of Joshi's message on December 4. The people of India would be reassured to know that ours is the only navy in the Indian Ocean region that has the capability to operate aircraft carrier battle groups and nuclear submarines.

Explaining the role of a navy has never been easy, since there is a vast difference in the way that a navy operates compared to an army or air force. Since navies invariably operate in international waters, which are open highways, they have the intrinsic advantage of being able to deploy to any part of the globe, unlike the army or air force which are confined to the nation's borders. Whilst all navies are well aware of their designated role and potential, it is the diplomats on both sides of the border who need to get attuned to the concept of naval operations. The Kargil conflict of 1999 is a case in point.

While the Indian army and air force were still preparing to evict the Pakistani intruders, the Indian Navy fleets had already deployed and seized the initiative at sea. The swift deployment of Indian Navy battle groups prevented escalation and confined the hostilities to the Kargil sector. Gunboat diplomacy certainly has great possibilities.

Reach and endurance is the concern of every blue water navy, and it is for this reason that the Indian Navy regularly deploys and operates across the world in different oceanic areas. That the Chinese have a healthy respect for the Indian Navy's capability has also been well established.

In September 2000 when the Indian Navy deployed a task force of submarines and destroyers to exercise in the South China Sea, there were misgivings in certain political circles. To those who understand what sea power is all about, it came as no surprise that this task force, which operated for more than a month in the region, was finally received by the Chinese at Shanghai naval base with full military ceremony.

Not many would know that the year 2012 is a historical landmark for the Indian Navy, for it came into being exactly four centuries ago, commissioned by the British East India Company in 1612. From a ragtag marine force, the navy is today a blue water force with potent capabilities . This is the sort of maritime heritage that would make any nation proud and is surely what every Indian would like to hear.

Joshi's reassuring message on our navy's 400anniversary was essentially meant for the people of India. That such a message was misconstrued as a diplomatic faux pas clearly shows that we have a scant understanding of what sea power is all about.

Perhaps we need to learn why the Greeks of antiquity and the emperors of ancient Rome went about building their navies even though it was an era of continental wars. If we do not want to fail the test of sea power as happened with Alexander, Napoleon and Hitler, it is time that we in India understood the purpose of a navy.

By Sushil Kumar: Former chief of the Indian Navy

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 15 Dec 2012 16:44

SaiK wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=19816

do we know what percent of the contract worth is the LD on gorshkov is?


5%, AFAIK. Russians are willing to supply 2-4 AK-630M gratis and offer extended post-guarantee service for boilers free of charge.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 16 Dec 2012 05:41

I had some thoughts on the NOPVs being built in GSL - these appear to be 2000+ tons, somewhat "stealthy", equipped with a "stealth" 76mm gun, and 2x AK-630 CIWS, in addition to helicopter/hangar

Appears to be a rather large and well equipped boat just for patrolling and sinking somali pirate craft. Are there any other potential uses for these vessels in a higher threat scenario? Seems like they don't stand a chance against Subs or Aircraft/Ships firing AShM

So why go to all the trouble to lavishly equip and outfit a patrol vessel? Any why generate a new "stealthy" design? We could have just churned out new Sukanya class vessels

Ideas???

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 16 Dec 2012 08:13

Why not? Its the natural progression. Its the weapons and radar fit that add to the cost. I can see these being exported and maybe be used as templates for light frigates for exports.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Dec 2012 08:38

Barak could be installed fairly easily over that hanger for a 16 or 32 cell load. Those ak630 can tackle harpoon class asm.

For areas like brown water patrolling on west coast or in andamans, laccadives these look adequate.

Maybe they have better sea legs for longer roles as well like off the african coast or asset protection in south china sea

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 16 Dec 2012 09:52

these vessels are far cheaper than what a "full load" stealth frigate would cost. not just in terms of capex but Opex. Complex weapons systems also need to be maintained - the more you have the greater the opex. These ships can also operate in shallower waters and have more deployment flexibility

They are optimized for ocean patrolling roles i.e against threats such as pirates who run around in really cheap vessels of their own. You simply don't want expensive power projection ships chasing down pirate dhows. These are much better for that and they can perform a variety of low and medium end tasks.

Moreover with MDA they are also ideal for acting as the naval version of a land based ISTAR unit and vector information for the shooters.

You need a mix of ships and these ones can operate hi-low-medium with the exception of strike warfare i.e I am clubbing together the business end of AAW, ASW and major ASuW) but can have a good role in enabling it.

Their smaller size combined with stealth features makes them a more difficult target for FACs carrying anti-ship missile and so they also have a role to play in fleet early warning and protection while deploying closer to enemy shores.
Last edited by D Roy on 16 Dec 2012 13:41, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 16 Dec 2012 11:39

saje wrote:
“No other company besides Sevmsha, could undertake such a massive task to repair and upgrade the ship, with a very high level,” said Captain Barry, quoted by Sevmash


Some how... the above lines reminded me of the below photo. But then I guess it's just my perverted mind.<SNIP>


No, it not perverted but bloody awfull mind which passes such insinuations so casually...if you nothing better to do, then spare us your idiotic comments.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 16 Dec 2012 23:39

@ Bheeshma - I don't dispute the 'natural progression' part; i'm just questioning as to whether the cost involved in 'natural progression' is really necessary if the expected role & threat perception is patrol/escort/anti-piracy

On that note, the light frigate template & potential exports makes more sense


@ Singha, D Roy - There is definitely space for Barak. However, the full functionality of the Barak is exploited only with a medium range air search radar such as the EL/M-2238 (also lacking). In any event, these ships will need at least a full 2-3 months in a shipyard to be modified to carry the radar/missile system. Not to mention the lead time of ~ 6 months to 1 year to procure said systems

In essence, these second rate frigates that are "fitted for but not with" AShM/SAM Systems/Sonar can be converted for combat use only AFTER a major skirmish is already over (assuming all future wars will be of short durations)

The one role I can foresee is that of providing additional helicopter platforms as part of a ASW force or convoy escort

Ideas?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 17 Dec 2012 10:26

Our CG vessels belong to the CG,which comes under the control of the IN esp. in wartime.I guess that these OPVs have a secondary role in wartime in acting as ASW escorts,given that they have a large hangar capable of accomodating a multi-role helo.If there is some provision below deck at the stern for a TAS and also light-weight TTs to be fitted ,these vessels will be very useful in wartime,escorting merchantmen and sanitising the inshore coastal zone.

Pl. look at the recent sub glitches in UK, US (a sub limping back to port right now) nuke boats as well as Collins class subs in OZ and elsewhere. As sub tech gets more complex.so does its operations and maintenance.Which is why this rampant lust for the very "latest and best" is proving even to advanced navies a double-edged sword.It is also the reason why the venerable '80s design upgraded Kilos are still in production because of their simplicity and reliability and sound design.Equipping Kilos with AIP and Brahmos would be an intriguing option if only our planners could think outside the box.ERemember we did something similar with the MIG-21 Bison upgrade which has served us well.

PS:What gives with today's media report about Pipavav's alleged mysteriou memorandum,aims and ambitions in excess of its stated purpose,building ships,that of building seaplanes,amphibians,aircraft,sundry defence eqpt. and weapon systems and also to be "brokers" for others in obtaining contracts etc.Is there the presence of a "firang" connection behind the yard?
Last edited by Philip on 17 Dec 2012 11:18, edited 1 time in total.

Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 17 Dec 2012 11:14

PPS:Clarification about the TOI report today,following on from its Nov.30th report, about the JV between MDL and Pipavav.The original agreement passed by MDL's board was grossly added on in the MOA later to in effect allow the JV to lobby for and "act as a "broker" for arms deals,etc.,in effect giving this JV powers far beyond any Indian PSU.Pl. check the TOI for further details.

Mumbai, June 11:

Pipavav Shipyard will tie up with French naval shipbuilder DCNS for technology transfer.

The focus of teaming together is to build the most modern assets, including modern warships for the Indian Navy and the Coast-Guard, Pipavav Shipyard said.

Mr Pierre Legros, DCNS Head of the Surface Ships Division, said, “DCNS's pledge is to become a key technology and know-how provider to Pipavav. Our objective is to propose modern manufacturing processes together with modern platforms.

DCNS is committed to transfer the technologies needed to support India's national security needs.”

DCNS is a global major in naval defence and an innovative player in energy. DCNS designs, builds and supports surface combatants, submarines and mission-critical systems and equipment.

It also proposes services for naval shipyards and bases, besides offering solutions in civil nuclear engineering and marine renewable energy.

The Group employs 12,800 people and generates annual revenues of about €2.6 billion.

Mr Nikhil Gandhi, Chairman, Pipavav Shipyard, said, “DCNS is well known for its high tech and very efficient platforms such as Scorpene submarines, Mistral-Class LPDs, FREMM frigates and innovative Gowind vessels (Corvettes and offshore patrol vessels) among others. DCNS and Pipavav will provide the country advanced expertise on naval ships.”

Pipavav was recently chosen by Mazagon Dock to form a joint venture to build warships for the Indian Navy. The partnership is expected to boost the country's drive for self-reliance in the field of Defence manufacturing.

Mr Patrick Boissier, DCNS Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, said through the P75 Scorpene submarines, on-going indigenisation programme and DCNS India, DCNS is working to enlarge its footprint in India.

murug@thehindu.co.in


Pl. note the bit about "civil nuclear energy",amongst other things in the tie-up!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 17 Dec 2012 11:37

Pipavav management seems to concentrate on building wealth for its investors rather than invest more on technology capabilities and infrastructure.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Brando » 17 Dec 2012 15:44

^^ Only by making shipbuilding "profitable" will Indian private sector yards find enough capital to invest in capabilities and technology down the road. "Profit" is a great motivator to entice more investors to put their money into something that is traditionally seen as a slow industry. Pipavav, L&T etc got into the business to make a buck, helping the nation build its navy is a happy "side-effect".

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 18 Dec 2012 00:36

kit wrote:Pipavav management seems to concentrate on building wealth for its investors rather than invest more on technology capabilities and infrastructure.

That is how ALL companies work. The threat of losing money is what drives them to do better. If they do not invest in technology and capabilities and do a slow or shoddy job, they won't get repeat orders and will lose money. The Public Sector shipyards on the other hand are guaranteed repeat orders even if they take 10 years to build a frigate.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hnair » 18 Dec 2012 02:28

titash-saar, good points. As DRoy-saar has mentioned, I too believe these new boats are to provide a cheaper alternative than sending a Kirvak class for what are essentially "law enforcement" around the Indian Ocean rim. They seem big enough to punch through big waves and reach a spot on time and within budget. Also these seem to be pretty voluminous and can do a bit of disaster relief management, have decent boarding parties with adequate fire (via that big gun) and helicopter support etc.

This (and the lightly armed Kamorta class) might be like our own narration of LCS, where smaller designs can do the work around the coasts at a cheaper cost. Considering the volume (there is another picture of NOPVs, that I remember seeing, which highlighted a really large aft superstructure), I wonder if the whole modular mission hardware concept was also considered? eg: as you pointed out, for ASW tasks, you can use a containerized ASW towed sonar system and use it quite well, along with the helicopters. That effectively increases the ASW capacity from peace time and along with ALHs carrying LWTs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 18 Dec 2012 03:32

The controversy about the Pipavava MOA is the task of also being "brokers" to obtain def. contracts,something that is banned in India.Where does civil nuclear energy also come into the picture.With a 15% stake supposedly by DCNL,Scorpene suppliers (at grossly higher costs per sub than originally agreed upon),the JV appears to be a gateway for entering into every aspect of the country's def. and nuclear industry through a supposed "shipbuilding only" venture!

To illustrate,with many Russian JVs,each JV is kept in a separate compartment,like the one for Brahmos,the FGFA,MTA and other ventures.Brahmos JV does not in its MOA list out every kind of weapon system used by the armed forces as its legitimate interest or ambitions of being defence "brokers",read "agents"....like Win Chaddha,Quattrochi,perhaps?!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 18 Dec 2012 14:17

Indian Sub Repaired in Russia Tested Cruise Missiles

Having passed repair and modernization at Zvezdochka shipyard (Severodvinsk, Russia), Indian Navy's diesel-electric submarine INS Sindhurakshak successfully carried out test launches of Club-S cruise missiles, reported the shipyard's press service.

The submarine hit sea surface and coast-based targets by cruise missiles 3M-54E and 3M-14E. "Missile test is the closing round of the submarine's trials", reports ITAR-TASS referring to the shipyard's press service.

Upon returning to the outfitting quay, the yard and the crew will jointly prepare the sub for delivery and a transfer to basing site in India.

According to press service of Zvezdochka shipyard, the submarine is equipped with up-to-date missile system Club-S; somewhat ten Indian- and foreign-made systems have been mounted on the sub, including Ushus sonar and CCS-MK-2 radio communication system.

"Upgrade of cooling system, placing of Porpoise radar, and some other works improving the sub's combat features and safe operation have been done", pointed out the Zvezdochka spokesman.

On June 23, 2012, INS Sindhurakshak was supposed to leave covered slipway for further launching.

In June 2010, delegation of Zvezdochka and representatives of Indian defense ministry signed the contract for 27-month long repair and modernization of INS Sindhurakshak.

Being specialized in overhaul and dismantling of nuclear-powered submarines, Zvezdochka Ship Repair Center has modernized four Indian subs since 1997 – INS Sindhuvir, INS Sindhuratna, INS Sindhughosh, and INS Sindhuvijay. The shipyard also continues repair and modernization of similar submarine INS Sindukirti in her home base Vishakhapatnam, India.

All these submarines are Russian-made Project 887EKM (Kilo class) developed by Rubin design bureau, St. Petersburg.

They are designed for antisubmarine and antiship warfare; defense of naval bases, coastal and sea lines of communication; reconnaissance and patrol operations.

In the course of modernization under Project 08773, these subs are equipped with advanced Russian Club-S cruise missile system (developed by Novator Design Bureau) with firing range of about 200 km, Indian sonars Ushus and radio communication systems CCS-MK.

INS Sindhurakshak was built in 1997 by Admiralteyskie Verfi shipyard (St. Petersburg) by the order of Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Dec 2012 16:13

>> The submarine hit sea surface and coast-based targets by cruise missiles 3M-54E and 3M-14E.

first official confirm that our Kilos field the 3M-14E

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby yantra » 18 Dec 2012 20:10

looks like we purchased them in 2008 according to this..

http://www.deagel.com/equipment/r1a001020.htm

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 18 Dec 2012 20:23

Singha wrote:>> The submarine hit sea surface and coast-based targets by cruise missiles 3M-54E and 3M-14E.

first official confirm that our Kilos field the 3M-14E


Aside from the Kilos, can we expect it to arm the Akula as well?

Our naval missile capability is generally not in public consciousness ... unlike USN viz-a-viz Tomahawk. Kudos to Navy to keep a low profile on it 8)


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