Indian Naval Discussion

Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 30 Aug 2013 23:15

relax. its just to stop carrying around tons of printed books and ease of maintaining different versions of manuals in portable format.
any tablet would work.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 30 Aug 2013 23:31

tsarkar wrote:What about rejecting the Dhruv that the others have so wholeheartedly adopted?

The joys of generalization & some unpleasant facts that kill-joy :)


Wasn't the Dhruv rejected because it didn't meet IN's specs ??? Though IN employs Dhruv but in limited quantities.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nick_S » 31 Aug 2013 03:00

rahulm wrote:Any interest from the few BRF'ites down under? Maybe time for a BR Sydney meet.


I would be interested in attending a BR meet in Sydney.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Aug 2013 04:57

But all that is in the future. Dedicated military satellites like Rukmini will help India keep real-time tabs over the rapidly-militarizing IOR, where China is increasingly expanding its strategic footprint, as well as on troop movements, missile silos, military installations and airbases across land borders.


How did they come up with the name Rukmini?

The civilian sat Rohini is named after the nakshatra and not Vausdeva's wife Rohini the mother of Balarama.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sudham » 31 Aug 2013 06:14

Hi,
I would be interested in attending a BRF Sydney meet.
Regards

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 31 Aug 2013 12:03

sohamn wrote:^^^^ Huh! Are they crazy?? who approved or sanctioned this request? Windows OS on tablet is the worst idea for the navy. When the whole world shunned their pathetic mobile platform, Indian navy decides to acquire it. But I doubt surface or any other windows tablet could match the spec mentioned by the navy as there are none in the world with the same spec. This shows the lack of common sense of the navy brass.


[quote=SKrishna]God send opportunity for M$crosoft !!! Their Surface tablets are lying unsold in warehouses... (if only the Navy could look beyond Windows which is known to have failed miserably in mobile computing... )

Microsoft permanently slashes price on struggling Surface Pro to $799[/quote]

Important point you both missed is the fact that they have asked for windows 7 professional and above. This does not mean they have asked for quotes for the windows surface tablet OS. They have asked for specific ruggedized tablet hardware.

Just FYI windows 7 pro is a can be hardened and the navy has a image customized for themselves. Trust me this is very secure unlike your home pc/desktop. :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 31 Aug 2013 12:30

Windoes is good as long as Navy doesnt use the Tablet to connect to internet , Its an open secret that all Windoes have backdoor built in for the NSA to snoop into ..... so as long as Navy Personal uses the Tablet for purpose without connecting to internet it is fine.

Not to mention Windows OS is itself vulnerable to many forms of virus and worms compared to Linux or Android OS ...So not sure why they wouldnt use a tablet with Linux or Andriod OS or better use BOSS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Ope ... _Solutions )

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 31 Aug 2013 15:23

Russia’s naval presence in the Bay of Bengal, which prevented a joint American-British strike on Indian cities, did not end after the 1971 war. Russian ships stayed on for two more years, clearing mines from the delta and recovering gold dumped in the sea by the Pakistanis.

Sweeping mines, salvaging looted gold after the 1971 War

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 31 Aug 2013 16:50

GSAT-7 launch: Indian Navy will no longer depend on foreign satellites

With the successful launch of India's first 'military' satellite (GSAT-7) into the geosynchronous transfer orbit early Friday, Indian Navy will no longer depend on foreign satellites like Inmarsat, which provides communication services to its ships.

According to defence experts, the satellite will enable the navy to acquire Blue Water capabilities and it need not depend on foreign satellites, which provides communication services to its ships.

The spacecraft is equipped with transponders in Ku band, S band, C band and UHF (ultra high frequency) band to improve the maritime communications among the Indian Navy's warships.

"The satellite's solar panels were deployed soon after it was placed in the orbit for generating 2,900 watt power. Initial checks have indicated its health is normal," the ISRO statement noted.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 31 Aug 2013 16:52

I am not familiar with Windows tablet related issues, but I just do not see a problem here - the Forces use a different variant of OSs that is very localized and hardened. IN (all services?) should have IT depts. that would localize the OS.

Also:

Its an open secret that all Windoes Windows have backdoor built in for the NSA to snoop into


Nope. I suspect you picked up this from a few news reports. It is very unfortunate that some folks used the word "backdoor". It is NOT. Here are some other open secrets. NSA has been doing what they do for eons. This is related to encryption and exporters of software from the US have restrictions on encryption - this has been in place since I cannot even recall when. These restrictions are dictates from a variety of US gov organizations. NSA plays a very small role in that export matter.

If one recalls GoI had an issue when IIRC Blackberry wanted to start an encrypted email service (????) in India. It is the very same issue that the NSA faced that the GoI was trying to address.

A very similar issue popped up either is Saudi Arabia or one of those small nation states. I would think (and hope) ALL concerned nations with very serious threats would resort to such things.

The IN can very easily circumvent this feature if they so desire. It is done all the time in internal systems.

Do not want to get into any further, but there is nothing backdoor about it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SKrishna » 31 Aug 2013 17:08

Austin wrote:Windoes is good as long as Navy doesnt use the Tablet to connect to internet , Its an open secret that all Windoes have backdoor built in for the NSA to snoop into ..... so as long as Navy Personal uses the Tablet for purpose without connecting to internet it is fine.

Not to mention Windows OS is itself vulnerable to many forms of virus and worms compared to Linux or Android OS ...So not sure why they wouldnt use a tablet with Linux or Andriod OS or better use BOSS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Ope ... _Solutions )


I can understand hardened Linux or BOSS but Android??? Are you serious??? Android is home to an overwhelming 79% of all malware on mobiles...

79 Percent of Mobile Malware Targets Android

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kapil » 31 Aug 2013 17:13

Rahul, you went back?

Phone Vhone kaahi naahi?

IN can do all that but it needs to be publicity savvy. Witness the RAN FR time table.
Here, you come to know about things a day before.

Kaps

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 31 Aug 2013 17:18

NRao wrote:Nope. I suspect you picked up this from a few news reports. It is very unfortunate that some folks used the word "backdoor". It is NOT.


http://investmentwatchblog.com/leaked-g ... s-the-nsa/
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/ ... -1999.html

US Government does not export encryption keys that NSA cannot decrypt.

Be that be the case , we can ensure our security by using OS like BOSS on any tablet that they want to buy ...that way we have full control over the source and updates/patches etc. It would be an effort but its worth the money.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 31 Aug 2013 17:48

^^^^^

We are talking of IN tablets right?

Perhaps even more ominously, he added: “The other realistic scenario is that TPM chip manufactures don’t sit within reach of the NSA, but in China….”


There are multiple issues here:
* IF you are really interested I would suggest you start reading more pertinent articles than that Bollywood material
* IF you think milspec materials are that easy, you are in for a whole boat load of surprises. That article does not even scratch the surface
* NSA related encryption topics have existed since Windows 95!!!!!

There is more to be written, but that should suffice.

And, I would not be concerned about Windows being used by the IN. I assume they would have a great IT dept.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 31 Aug 2013 18:28

VIna has put out some interesting facts about the services and comparative indigenisation efforts.However,the issue is not that simplistic.Tracing the development of our indigenous industry and the history of acquisitions for the armed forces is a doctoral thesis! There were so many factors involved ,mainly easier to import than to develop and build at home on time and within budget.

Perhaps some DRDO programmes should be treated as in the US as "X" (experimental) projects.Once they have matured,they then get inducted into the armed forces.If they fail,they get dumped.The US of course has a lot more money than we have.Today worldwide,nations are collaborating in major defence projects as they cannot independentally (barring the US and China for diff. reasons) afford the same or have to pool tech for the same.But certainly,the time is long past when the 3 service have to put their perspective plans into factoring in a far greater % of indigenous content,at least 75%,and getting embedded in these projects right from the start.The MOD must also, as has been done with the IN,give the services that element of leadership and freedom that they deserve in critical decision making,and not protect underperforming DPSUs ad nauseum,and attempting to shove down their half-baked products down the throats of the services.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 31 Aug 2013 18:38

Austin wrote:
NRao wrote:Nope. I suspect you picked up this from a few news reports. It is very unfortunate that some folks used the word "backdoor". It is NOT.


http://investmentwatchblog.com/leaked-g ... s-the-nsa/
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/ ... -1999.html


The NSAKEY things was debunked ages ago and the TPM thing is typical anti-MS sensationalism.

The BSI published a clarification after websites reported about that Windows 8 warning

Basically, they pedalled back a bit. They now claim they never warned about Windows 8 itself, but about possible risks when combining Windows 8 with TPM 2.0, because the user no longer has complete control over his system and that because of that, the user could end up in a situation where the system is permanently unusable. So for instance hard drives can be tied to motherboards so that if the motherboard dies you cannot recover data from the drive.

Austin wrote:US Government does not export encryption keys that NSA cannot decrypt.


PGP pretty much smashed all export restrictions back in the 90s. Some laws are on still on the books, but 'unbreakable' encryption is widely available to anyone who wants it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 31 Aug 2013 19:21

right.. unbreakable encryption is possible by moving away from standards. adding one's own salt, and factors there is nothing pretty much can break.. unless there is some insider who gets way excited to share and decipher.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby KrishnaK » 31 Aug 2013 22:35

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Austin wrote:US Government does not export encryption keys that NSA cannot decrypt.


PGP pretty much smashed all export restrictions back in the 90s. Some laws are on still on the books, but 'unbreakable' encryption is widely available to anyone who wants it.

Projects like OpenBSD are based in Canada to work around US export laws. On top, the private sector pays a lot better and has more encryption experts employed. If any of the popularly used encryption algorithms had major flaws it would be out in the open by now.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 31 Aug 2013 23:19

Austin wrote:Windoes is good as long as Navy doesnt use the Tablet to connect to internet , Its an open secret that all Windoes have backdoor built in for the NSA to snoop into ..... so as long as Navy Personal uses the Tablet for purpose without connecting to internet it is fine.

Not to mention Windows OS is itself vulnerable to many forms of virus and worms compared to Linux or Android OS ...So not sure why they wouldnt use a tablet with Linux or Andriod OS or better use BOSS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Ope ... _Solutions )


Trust me Austin the guys at NIC have required Software MNC's to provide unprecedented access to the internals working of the software before they were cleared for use within the government. I will not say more then that.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 31 Aug 2013 23:45

KrishnaK wrote:Projects like OpenBSD are based in Canada to work around US export laws. On top, the private sector pays a lot better and has more encryption experts employed. If any of the popularly used encryption algorithms had major flaws it would be out in the open by now.


Did a quick search on OpenBSD, seems to be a commercial effort. Is it? They claim a bunch of things, but that is not acceptable for military use.

IF we want to really discuss this topic we need to differentiate between commercial and military uses. That German article that Austin posted may very well work in commercial India, I do not know. OpenBSD may be just great in commercial India. WRT OpenBSD The question I have is is it used by the Canadian military. I can bet pretty much anything that IF the Canadian military were to use it, the OpenBSD OS would be very heavily modified. You just cannot use a commercial OS - as is - in a military secure environment.

So, suggest that we figure out if the article/s are for commercial or military use - before we post.

Ever since Mr. China hacked (around 2002/2) there have been a huge change. And, if one follow the bread crumbs one will see the pattern out there.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Lilo » 31 Aug 2013 23:49

What of the rumors regarding stuxnet which sunk Sindhurakshak ... Are they proved to be just rumors onlee ..?

AFAiK DRDO was developing a custom OS for precisely this reason ... What is its present status...

And this is idiocy to splurge money on overpriced Windoze 8 and its document reading malware (Office ) when there are gazzilion light weight and bare bones alternatives of Linux android kindle's etc which can be used as stop gap...

Isn't the need just to eliminate the bulky Paper manuals when doing maintenance work ?

HYDERABAD: Exhorting the need to have a robust cyber security system in place, DRDO chief V K Saraswat today said the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) alongwith other premier institutes is developing India's own operating system (OS), which is likely to be ready in next three years.

"One of the major elements of cyber security is having our own operating system because today we are dependent on all OS systems which are imported whether it is based on Windows, Linux which is likely to be having malicious worms/things and hence it is essential that we have our own OS," the DRDO Director-General said here


http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... rimes-drdo

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 31 Aug 2013 23:51

vulnerability is about the security aspect of the system.. and having an access to internal working of the software does not remove the vulnerability that came in with the system.

i am not talking if it has or not, but saying these two are different aspects.

it applies to any system, e.g: INC: no matter how much you know about its internal working its vulnerability to corruptions and bribes can be categorized and qualified.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 31 Aug 2013 23:56

Its more about the content of source that matters , if you have a binary OS like Windows then you really do not know whats inside it and how it work and what patches go in and what happens it is all maya.

When you get an open source OS like BOSS or OpenBSD or FreeBsd or some other flavour and you have full control over the source , patches updates etc and can audit it for vulnerabilties and backdoor stuff etc then you are more confident since you have full control.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby KrishnaK » 31 Aug 2013 23:56

NRao wrote:
KrishnaK wrote:Projects like OpenBSD are based in Canada to work around US export laws. On top, the private sector pays a lot better and has more encryption experts employed. If any of the popularly used encryption algorithms had major flaws it would be out in the open by now.


Did a quick search on OpenBSD, seems to be a commercial effort. Is it? They claim a bunch of things, but that is not acceptable for military use.

IF we want to really discuss this topic we need to differentiate between commercial and military uses. That German article that Austin posted may very well work in commercial India, I do not know. OpenBSD may be just great in commercial India. WRT OpenBSD The question I have is is it used by the Canadian military. I can bet pretty much anything that IF the Canadian military were to use it, the OpenBSD OS would be very heavily modified. You just cannot use a commercial OS - as is - in a military secure environment.

So, suggest that we figure out if the article/s are for commercial or military use - before we post.

Ever since Mr. China hacked (around 2002/2) there have been a huge change. And, if one follow the bread crumbs one will see the pattern out there.

NRao,
OpenBSD is about as commercial as Linux. It's open source. But that's besides the point. I never meant to say we should use OpenBSD. Those that work on the project take security very seriously and they restrict themselves to using freely available security implementations and algorithms. I was just pointing out to the fact that there exists unencumbered security code available to those who would like to use it. For all practical purposes, the US export control laws have no real effect. This was in response to Austin's claim.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 01 Sep 2013 00:05

correct austin, and the reason that there are open source and information about the vulnerabilities. there are cert (like cmu), and us gov cert.org. to know about them.

reporting vulnerabilities improves quality of the product.

normally, security package is different and one has to pay for it.. and restricted to many govs.out
it is one thing about breaking the security, and it is entirely different to let know others how your security works.

so, secure data and communication should be gov specific and country specific. i would highly think about india's own encryption and decryption algos in the first place. but this does not prevent hackers.. so, there is comm level encryption /hardware level protection needed.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 01 Sep 2013 01:50

What binary? No defdept person will ever install a purchased binary and install it! In serious efforts the defdept actually sit with vendors and ensure secure code. Suspect you have not been exposed to such situ.

I would expect IN to even prohibit a chip that article talks about, either remove it or have a known chip set installed.

Like I said there is a huge diff between commercial and def implementation.

KK,

Thanks.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rahulm » 01 Sep 2013 06:22

Hi Kapil,

This India trip was a blur mainly because it was terribly frustrating. After spending full unproductive days at government offices, I left in a hurry without making much progress. I won't bribe - that's the problem. I am sorry, I was incommunicado after my first contact.

I had a limited window available from work and had to make it back before the 27th.
I have retreated but am not defeated. I will advance from a different flank. Next visit should be longer.

I have had a few chats with various IN people about PR and public engagement. Sadly, the small minority who see the benefits are drowned out by the majority who do not see it as a priority.

In the meantime, any chance of you coming for the Sydney IFR? Would be great if you could make it. There is a Paki P3C participating which they could not refuse us on an open public day.

--

Nick_S and Sudham, please PM me to work out logistics. Thank you.

R

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 01 Sep 2013 08:47

NRao wrote:What binary? No defdept person will ever install a purchased binary and install it! In serious efforts the defdept actually sit with vendors and ensure secure code. Suspect you have not been exposed to such situ.

I would expect IN to even prohibit a chip that article talks about, either remove it or have a known chip set installed.

Like I said there is a huge diff between commercial and def implementation.

KK,

Thanks.


Can't agree more NRao. Austin when I say unprecedented access to internal working I mean exactly that. This can and will include source code access depending on the criticality. Some of this was required for ensuring security of our utilities infrastructure. Defense is even more critical and no one even the corrupt have been allowed to interfere.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Sep 2013 09:39

Unprecedented Access , what are you talking about ?

Couple of year back our vendors were involved in networking of WNC in Mumbai , Vendors/OEM are involved in tenders who ever wins the tender gets the deal and then they subcontract it to their partner , I wont tell you who the specific vendor was but lets say HCL wins the deal they subcontract to their partner , they use the same Windows OS , CICSO routers/switches and all the same software commercial vendors uses , No Unprecedented access , the only form of security is what you get via firewall/anti-virus software etc no different from any other commercial entity. The Navy leaves it on the OEM and Vendor to do the job and the software/hardware used are the same as any commercial operator would use.

I can give you example of work done at HAL and Army Central command and most of the time the subcontractor has really no clue about security and these are the ones who do most of the work , all they are interested is do the job within agreed time and get the money.

You can be assured that in all cases the hardware and sofware are procured in much the same way as any other commercial entity would do. We only found some DRDO organisation were security conscious when it comes to the fine nity gritty , I remember looking at a document for HPC setup in an DRDO entity and they had great deal of question down to level of packages and what can/must be added and it was based on opensource even though if these are again commerical Linux type OS.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 01 Sep 2013 18:07

I know of one IT supplier who did some important work for one of the services.He found that his work was just part of a complete system,and each supplier had little or no idea of the rest of the work,the whole put together by the service themselves.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 01 Sep 2013 19:20

Austin/Philip,

Thanks. I sleep very well (outside of your post on binaries).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 01 Sep 2013 19:47

Austin,

You can have your views and I don't intend to get onto a slug fight on this thread. I know what I am talking of and you know what you did at WNC. Lets keep it at that.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 01 Sep 2013 19:55

Austin, search for "shared source initiative" and government security program on the Microsoft site. Similar programs exist with from other vendors. CISCO, IBM, ORACLE et al are no exception.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sankum » 03 Sep 2013 06:40

Image

Rough hanger representation of ins vikrant. Taken as 134m by 21m. 21m width is estimated from google earth. While 134m length is that of cavour hanger. Two automated rail lines for aircraft movement in hanger can be seen in ndtv video of ins vikrant hanger cgi. The red line are fire screens at 44m and 98m from begining of the hanger. 11 mig 29k and 6 kamovs can be carried in more flexible layout than ins vikramaditya where 3 rail lines move the aircraft and is densely packed.

Thanks N Rao. I was struggling with image URL.
Last edited by sankum on 03 Sep 2013 07:03, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Sep 2013 06:49

sankum wrote:Image


Missing the / in the closing [img]

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Sep 2013 06:53

I know of one IT supplier who did some important work for one of the services.He found that his work was just part of a complete system,and each supplier had little or no idea of the rest of the work,the whole put together by the service themselves.



Standard operating protocol; have a cousin who had same experience with RN (UK).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 03 Sep 2013 11:18

They all work on need to know basis. I know someone who was doing project for creating CFD model of airflow in tunnels for Indian Navy back in 2001. IN will not even share what, how, where information, only necessary geometric inputs and boundary conditions were supplied. :) same everywhere.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rupak » 04 Sep 2013 15:30

Second NOPV INS Sunayna commissioned
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... rol-vessel

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chandanus » 04 Sep 2013 17:48

Was in a city , noticed a guy carring some parts n PCBs on back of a bicycle..a little chat revealed that they were parts for homing head our home grown torpedo :shock:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Sep 2013 01:48

chandanus wrote:Was in a city , noticed a guy carring some parts n PCBs on back of a bicycle..a little chat revealed that they were parts for homing head our home grown torpedo :shock:


It's all part of a chankian strategy to hide in plain sight. Only worry is where he bringing them from.


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