Indian Naval Discussion


kit
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 18 Sep 2013 23:11

Maybe this optronic mast system is just right for the new line of subs

http://www.janes.com/article/27124/cass ... ast-system

The new OMS 200 is a compact, modular, low-profile, non-hull penetrating, search/attack optronic mast that integrates multiple mission sensors in a single radar absorbent material-coated housing. Whether it is used as a standalone system or in combination with another optronic mast or optical periscope, the system is engineered to allow integration with all submarine types, either from build or upgrade .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 19 Sep 2013 08:52

There was one report that the Vik would no come with its full/intended SAM system.Is there any further light on this matter?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 19 Sep 2013 09:19


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Sep 2013 10:41

well this was expected. they are the only game in town at 65,000t size + EMALS + HawkeyeNG + F18EDE
onlee issue to be hashed out is what is the power requirement of EMALS and how does a COGAG ship generate it?

if the Barak8 is going to take a decade to arrive or be abandoned, I would favour equipping the Kolkata class with SPY1F+SM2 over any euro option. atleast it is proven over long service and huge production volume. we need a immediate soln to get these huge ships into service.

in parallel, work to modify the AAD into a naval SAM and its radar system would have to start locally and hopefully deliver something by 2020.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishnan » 19 Sep 2013 11:00

never gonna happen, it will only kill what all we have achieved in house, everything from NLCA to future IAC's

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby maz » 19 Sep 2013 12:09

SNaik, please help with the OLS/ TACAN question. What systems are on the Gorky and what is likely to be on the IAC-1?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Sep 2013 13:06

krishnan wrote:never gonna happen, it will only kill what all we have achieved in house, everything from NLCA to future IAC's


I think they would just be a consultant like fincantieri is for the IAC1.
NLCA being our design can be modified to support catapult takeoff. thats the benefit of being our design.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 19 Sep 2013 13:56

Singha wrote:
krishnan wrote:never gonna happen, it will only kill what all we have achieved in house, everything from NLCA to future IAC's


I think they would just be a consultant like fincantieri is for the IAC1.
NLCA being our design can be modified to support catapult takeoff. thats the benefit of being our design.


when an Italian chef offers to cook for you , will you order Italian pizza from pizza hut ? no pun intended :mrgreen:

only problem is don't fire your long time cook when you become addicted to Italian cooking, the chef would be around only till he sees fit ! :((

Better get your cook to learn Italian cooking :rotfl:

Khan wants to do the entire thing all bells and whistles knowing well Indian industry/DRDO (the cook :mrgreen: ) is in no shape to match up ! But politico/babu log have a way of shoving down everything in one go ..lets see what happens

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 19 Sep 2013 14:30

The help will come with a "package",carrier tech,cats,F-35s,etc.,just like the C-17 + Chinooks! cost about $10-15B at least.
It would be far better for the IN to develop a 60-65t nuclear powered carrier,particularly as a carrier has a lifespan of at least 4 decades and we are nowhere self-sufficient in petro-products.A stretched/enlarged design of IAC could easily be designed ,costing us a lot less than importing a new design.We will also now shortly the experience of the Gorky/Vik too for comparison with the design of IAC-1 , and develop a design to suit our own requirements. The IAC-2 could also operate any naval version of the FGFA where we have a JV going,which some sources say will similarly be developed for the RuN.

I think that we have gone too far down the line for B-8 to scrap the programme.The last reports indicated that the Israelis would be inducting the SAM into its own naval assets from this yr. end.It is on course for the "K" class DDGS too and would once perfected offer commonality off type across our frontline surface warships.The US is going "hell-for-leather" before the coming hustings in order to "seal-the-deal" for s many def. deals as poss. before the UPA gets its well-deserved desserts.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Sep 2013 14:52

another option is license the PA2 carrier design from DCN and adapt it to our needs. due to funding the work has not started but perhaps design work is all done. it was to feature steam cats and hawkeyes and same size as QE2 class.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 19 Sep 2013 15:10

Oui,but the "Rosbifs" have rejected this design as being too expensive,cats et al in favour of the STOBAR design and STOVL Jsfs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Sep 2013 15:14

was are Rosbifs? the french need to use hawkeye and rafale neither of which will really work off ski jump. they need a CTOL carrier if they want to remain in the carrier game.

the UK did flip once to CTOL for QE2 then flopped back to VSTOL JSF.

I assume we do not want to mimic the kuznetsov design from nikolayev. original design locked up the fwd part with granit silos. varyag has removed it. and no catapults.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Sep 2013 15:26

les rosbif is what the french call the english. its a corruption of roast beef, which the english are fond of, but the comment is more about having red faces from over eating. the english ofcourse call the french - the frogs

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby svinayak » 19 Sep 2013 22:05




What do they gain by collaborating. They are not interested in the India's security interest.
They gain publicity in one of the largest populated country in the world by just announcing their intent. Just the publicity and pr on a large populated nation along with other nations who work closely with India such as Asean nation gives them great value. with almost 2B population

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saje » 19 Sep 2013 23:07

Acharya wrote:What do they gain by collaborating. They are not interested in the India's security interest.


Actually Gora sahib wants to help us so that we can help him. Sahib's favourite projection toy -- the AC, is going to be hugely costly to build and own if built in Sahib's own land by gora log. Since Sahib doesn't trust the yellow man to build these cheaply for him, Sahib wants the brown man to do the job.

Best part is - an Indian made aircraft carrier of the US 5th/7th Fleet won't even have to leave its area of operations when it goes for repair/refit.

Image

So in future, let's not be surprised when Gora sahib offers to 'help' us in ships,submarines,ASW aircraft and everything else that the US 5F and 7F needs!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby svinayak » 20 Sep 2013 00:07

Will they allow India IN to exercise with both 5F and 7F . Also India needs to joint excercise with the Centcom

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby raj-ji » 20 Sep 2013 03:04

Lalmohan wrote:les rosbif is what the french call the english. its a corruption of roast beef, which the english are fond of, but the comment is more about having red faces from over eating. the english ofcourse call the french - the frogs


The English are called rosbif by the French because when they are out in the sun (French beaches), they easily get sun burned and their complexion turns very pink, like rosbif (roast beef).

I like the over eating comment as well.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 20 Sep 2013 07:26

Has anyone tracked an important development,Russia reopening an Arctic island naval base at Kotelny in Siberia .There is a map in one of the papers,showing the view from an Artic perspective,which unlike the flat maps we normally see,shows how important the region is form the maritime perspective.the melting of the Artic ice cap is seeing a rush of nations all scrambling for the mineral wealth and a new cheap trade route from Europe and America to Asia by sea,by-passing the usual Suez route.Oil to China and japan will be faster and cheaper by this route.This is going to ease the Chinese problem of getting Russian oil via the Malacca Straits.Russia now has another route by which it can export its huge oil and gas reserves.

Incidentally,it was a welcome sight to see MIG-29Ks vigorously operating out of INS Dega at Vizag.It will be interesting to see the Gorky/Vikram operating from the eastern seaboard.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 20 Sep 2013 07:31

tsarkar wrote:
maz wrote:If I remember correctly, ONGC (or some other entity) also funded the Sukanya class OPVs. It is not unusual for state owned oil companies to fund naval/ CG platforms.
It was indeed ONGC that funded Sukanya class OPVs.


Wasn't it the DRI? Directorate of Revenue Intelligence??

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Sep 2013 07:43

>> .Oil to China and japan will be faster and cheaper by this route.This is going to ease the Chinese problem of getting Russian oil via the Malacca Straits

er both china and japan probably uptake russian oil/gas from the vladivostok region. for importing from caucasus basin cheen wants pipepines and already has one from kazakhstan to its east coast. for importing from gulf nations, the malacca route is only option

it would however open a more direct trade route from the northern europe/east coast of US to the ports of japan/china/south korea than taking the panama canal or suez. this is a huge amt of trade.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 20 Sep 2013 09:48

chetak wrote:Wasn't it the DRI? Directorate of Revenue Intelligence??


Infact I recall that the complete Coast Guard budget is from Ministry of Finance (Customs is one of the departments of MoF).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 20 Sep 2013 12:37

Hopefully this report is accurate.

Indian Navy's quest for deep sea rescue vehicle almost over
http://www.defencereviewasia.com/articl ... lmost-over

The Indian Navy's much delayed plan to acquire the Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicle (DSRV), a pressurised capsule meant to rescue sailors from disaster-struck submarines at sea, has made some headway with the completion of technical evaluation of two contenders.
The Indian Navy’s much delayed plan to acquire the Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicle (DSRV), a pressurised capsule meant to rescue sailors from disaster-struck submarines at sea, has made some headway with the completion of technical evaluation of two contenders.

Two companies, one each from the United Kingdom and Russia, are in the fray for the project. Sources said the technical evaluation of both has been concluded, and the process is set to move forward pending the defence ministry’s nod.

The navy is hopeful that the DSRV will be acquired within the next two years.The need to procure a DSRV has long been felt by the Navy, but the pursuit has gained a sense of urgency in the wake of the accident involving the INS Sindhurakshak which killed all 18 personnel on board.

INS Sindhurakshak was rocked by explosions when the submarine was berthed in the dockyard, but the danger of the navy’s ageing fleet of underwater boats meeting a mishap in deep sea is frighteningly real.

India has 15 submarines, most of which are old. Apart from the nine Russian kilo class submarines equipped with land attack missiles, the navy operates four German type 209 attack submarines and a single nuclear powered INS Chakra, an Akula class submarine leased from Russia.

The process to acquire the DSRV was started more than five years ago, and bids invited in 2010. The navy is looking for a vehicle in the 3,000-tonne category and at the time, platforms still under development were also under consideration

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 21 Sep 2013 14:28

update on Vikram

A MiG over the deck: Vikramaditya aviation tests passed
“The trials programme has been completed, and we expect the aircraft carrier to dock at Sevmash on Friday, September 20,” the shipyard said in a press note, confirming unofficial press reports. “The weather has been less then cooperative, though”

On July 3, the Vikramaditya, refurbished on behalf of the Indian Navy, sailed to the White Sea for repeat trials (after repairs on its steam boilers were completed). This time around, the power plant was beyond reproach – the ship achieved the required 29 knots while demonstrating good manoeuvrability.

This was followed by joint trial missions with the Northern Fleet’s naval aircraft at the Barents Sea. The MiG and the Sukhoi aircraft performed daytime and night-time take-offs and landings, with different sets of armaments and fuel loads. According to unofficial reports, both the equipment and the people operating it performed brilliantly. In any caDuring its return trip, on the White Sea, the ship once again went full steam ahead at the request of the Indian side, achieving 29.5 knots to meet the design specifications. According to Rossiyskaya Gazeta sources, the ship also went full steam in reverse at 15.2 knots. The commander of the Russian crew, Captain Igor Ryabko, and Indian Navy Commodore Suraj Berry took turns at the controls.

Once the Vikramaditya arrives at Sevmash, the shipyard’s workers will get down to preparing the ship for official delivery to the customer. A special handover ceremony has been tentatively scheduled for November 15.

Informed sources tell RIR that the Vikramaditya will reach India’s west coast by the middle of January 2014. se, the customer’s representatives were on hand to witness the action and were happy with what they saw.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rupesh » 21 Sep 2013 17:05

Operation Cactus 1988 Maldives



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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Sep 2013 17:05

good details on Mig-29K flight test program on Vikram ( in russian use translator )

Night Flight MiG ship

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 22 Sep 2013 19:55



their satellites not working well ? :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Sep 2013 20:01

Kit_> they wanted the footage inside the ship, which no satellite can get

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby williams » 23 Sep 2013 10:34

It is interesting how the Chinese use every state machinery they have for clandestine work. It is also interesting how they perceive our own media and Navy. They think that they can get through our officials with a simple lie. It makes me wonder how savvy are our folks with the Chinese mindset.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Sep 2013 14:42

The Chinese tactic is to push at every point and spot weaknesses.Same tactic on the border too.Every Chinaman should be considered as a potential spy.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 23 Sep 2013 17:32


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 24 Sep 2013 11:49


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Viv S » 24 Sep 2013 14:22



I don't why this merits 'alarm' in the MoD. The caller clearly introduced himself as a journalist from the state Chinese media and requested officially released footage from Doordarshan. I imagine a spy would have gone about it with at least some degree of subtlety.

Bottom-line is any sensitive information needs to be withheld from the media, foreign or domestic. Nothing should be handed over to DD or private Indian channels than the MoD/IN is not comfortable with the Chinese viewing.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 25 Sep 2013 13:06

Interesting interview by Komardin, Head of Rosoboronexport at NAMEXPO-2013.
Vikramaditya will be handed over on 15 November and will sail immediately for India, arriving in late January 2014 and paying visits to 14 ports enroute.
Russia has been contracted to supply and install aviation-related equipment (hangar equipment, elevators and arrestor gear) for Vikrant.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 25 Sep 2013 15:49

Viv S wrote:I don't why this merits 'alarm' in the MoD. The caller clearly introduced himself as a journalist from the state Chinese media and requested officially released footage from Doordarshan. I imagine a spy would have gone about it with at least some degree of subtlety.

Bottom-line is any sensitive information needs to be withheld from the media, foreign or domestic. Nothing should be handed over to DD or private Indian channels than the MoD/IN is not comfortable with the Chinese viewing.


Indian MOD is needlessly paranoid while footage of inside the ship is not really a secret specially when its not sailing and when they do sail they generally white/block the screen of sensitive equipment to make sure no data is seen while the rest can be shot by the media.

While the real secret are just flicked away from MOD Babus Office by Arms Dealers and who know even spies using simple Pen Drive they tend to get paranoid over things they shouldnt in the first place.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 25 Sep 2013 17:01

This is a joke,that an unfinished "30%" only hulk of metal in its present far from unfinished state,without any eqpt. installed, cannot be photographed.The PRC have mastered the art of stealing the world's mil secrets,even that of the JSF and allegedly all the US's N-warhead designs,through cyber espionage.The NSA too has been eavesdropping on Indian communications galore and even bugging di0lomatic Indian missions on US soil. Add to it the fact that as posted above,the motley crew of arms dealers and agents have a free
run of Indian def. secrets thanks to a corrupt system,makes for a good Bollywood comedy plot.

There has been little open news as to how the IN is going to make up the crisis in the sub fleet after the SR disaster.The speedy release of the second line tender will not solve the immediate numbers problem at a time of crisis with increasing PLAN sub activity in our backyard.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vipul » 26 Sep 2013 02:58

Russia offers one-year guarantee for aircraft-carrier.

NS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov), the $2.33 billion Russia-built aircraft carrier which will be delivered to Indian Navy on November 15 after a delay of nearly five years, will only have a one-year guarantee.

Victor M. Komardin, Deputy Director-General of Rosoboronexport, Russia’s state-owned arms exporter, told media persons here that during the guarantee period, a team of Russian engineers would be stationed in India to take care of “every single screw of the ship.”

Komardin said the warship which would be handed over at the Sevmash shipyard near Moscow, will arrive in Mumbai in February.

Asked about retrofitting the ship with LR-SAM (long-range surface to air missiles) being built jointly by India and Israel, he said Vikramaditya was already an Indian Navy’s asset and that the Navy was free to do whatever it wanted to. But it would have to conform to the Russian design parameters.

Komardin said for Russia defence co-operation and arms supplies are a part of its politics of friendship. “For us, politics comes first, then comes economics,” he stressed. Though regimes had changed in Russia, politics had not. Indo-Russian exports and imports had been going up every year all along. Russia’s engagement with Indian industry was much stronger and wider than other countries,” he claimed.

He said India and Russia were “genetically friendly” and that the Russian side wanted to carry on the current defence co-operation. He noted that though Russia had traditionally been India’s largest supplier of defence requirements, India was now increasingly sourcing its needs outside of Russia.

He said Russia appreciated India’s efforts to indigenise defence production.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nits » 26 Sep 2013 11:12

India’s Submarine Woe’s, Option 1 – Go for 18 Scorpenes, Option 2 – 3 More Scorpene, Scrap P75I & Build 6 SSNs

India had procured 10 Project 877 Russian Kilo subs and 4 German Type 209 HDW (2 built in India) since mid 1980s, after which it was decided in late 1990s to have ‘two line 30 year national submarine building programme’ for the Indian Navy to boost its submarine strength. Unfortunately in 1990s the Indian Navy inducted just 4 submarines and the biggest mistake was to not opt for building more Type 209 HDW despite having the all documents under ToT.

All this and the recent blast & sinking of INS Sindhurakshak along with the ill-fated attempt to upgrade INS Sindhukirti submarine in HSL at Vizag have left Indian Navy with 12 submarines out of which only 6 to 8 are available for patrolling, most of which are over 20 year old. This means that by the time Indian Navy will get all 6 Scorpene submarines under P75, ie by 2020 Indian Navy will be left with just 6 old subs (heavily upgraded 4 Type 209s and 2 Kilo inducted in late 1990s) and 6 new subs. Even if we go by the ‘two line 30 year national submarine building programme’ no one knows when we will have the required submarines that can be considered as good numbers.

So in order to have enough submarines to defend India’s maritime borders the Indian Navy can opt for 2 options, Option 1 is to go for 18 Scorpene submarines.

Why go for 18 Scorpenes

Simply bcoz selecting the P75I design from RfP to production will take atleast 12 yrs with 2 yrs for RfP, 3 yrs for ToT and setting up production line and 7 yrs to roll out the first sub , we don’t have that much time and it will affect the operational capability of Indian Navy
Even if P75I selection is done by 2018 the first submarine will role out only by 2026 atleast and by that time Indian Navy will be left with just 6 Scorpenes, it will affect the operational capability of Indian Navy
Considering that 8 of the 13 submarines are already beyond 20 yrs in service and as per 30 year sub making plan Indian Navy was supposed to have atleast 24 subs by 2030, its not a good idea to wait for P75I to fructify

How to do it

Considering that Mazagaon Docks (MDL) has said that after 2015 it will roll out a Scorpene submarine every 9 months. It will be much better idea to increase the number P75 Scorpene submarines to 18 with first 6 (hull 1 to 6) currently being built left alone for now (hulls to be completed by 2016 and all 6 launched by 2020) and next 6 (hull 7 to 12) being AIP powered (provided Stirling AIP is chosen, the most deployed worldwide) with production starting from 2018 onwards. However development of DRDO/NMRL AIP can still go on provided that AIP is used on the Indian designed submarine later after 2030
By the time the last batch of 6 P75 Scorpenes (hull 13 to 18) enter production sometime in 2024 it will be time for the 1st P75 Scorpene for upgrade/refit ( hull 1 launched in 2015),
This is the time when Indian Navy can ask MDL to try and add a VLS missile firing capsule (for firing Brahmos/Nirbhay SLCM)/ module into it and test it
Once successful then remaining 5 hulls of the first batch of P75 Scorpenes can be added with missile firing capsule / module
With the AIP module (Stirling AIP having been selected) added in 2nd batch of Scorpenes, the same AIP module can also be added into the 1st batch of P75 Scorpenes (hull 1 to 6) giving them immense potential.
Once that is done the 3rd batch of P75 Scorpene (hull 13 to 18) to be built from 2024 onwards (launched 2030 onwards) can easily include Stirling AIP and VLS missile firing modules.
Similarly when it will be time for 2nd batch of P75 Scorpenes (AIP powered hull 7 to 12) to be upgraded (built 2018 onwards and launched 2024 onwards & upgraded 2032 onwards) we can add the missile firing VLS modules into them (which would have been successfully tested on 1st Scorpene launched in 2015 & upgraded sometime in 2025). That will give 2nd batch of Scorpenes immense potential with VLS missile firing module (for firing Brahmos/Nirbhay SLCM)
This will mean that all 18 Scorpenes will eventually be AIP powered and VLS missile firing subs.
Benefits

This pattern if adopted will give MDL submarine makers immense confidence to design any type of submarine quickly with high quality standards.
It will eventually help recover the cost incurred for setting up the P75 line.
Once that is done India could refocus on making Type 209 submarines, 12 in all (having sat on its ToT long enough) with missile firing VLS modules already tested and deployed with more Indian elements (India made steel) & DRDO designed AIP, much the same way as we are now doing with the Bofors guns. If the Type 209 production starts by 2030 Indian Navy can hope to get 30 submarines (18 Scorpenes & 12 Type 209 submarines) by 2040 as the expertise of making 18 submarines will allow them to churn out the Type 209 at a much faster rate.

India’s Submarine Woe’s, Option 2 – 3 More Scorpene, Scrap P75I & Build 6 SSNs - (Will be published tomorrow )

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 26 Sep 2013 14:39

Looking at the future of the IN sub fleet, and the money being earmarked for the project. It seems that the plan is to totally gut the Sub fleet, in the hopes that it will act as a CBM for the PRC.

Coming to the article posted above.

It is difficult to believe, based on the performance with the Project till date, that, the MDL can start to deliver the second batch of the Scorpeans by 2018, if an order is placed today. Also, it must be kept in mind that the, by the time the last of the 6 Scorpeans is launched by the MDL. the basis design it self will be nearly 20 years old.

That being the case, investing, more money on the Scorpean may not be the best course of action on part of the Indian navy. It is a separate discussion that, it may be the only option left to them. But that is making virtue out of necessity. Rather than a deliberate choice.

Coming to the P 75 I. It looks to be promising development, if one just looks at the plans. But the number of Boats needs to increase from 6. Perhaps 12 or 18 to be delivered from 2020 to 2030. With the first 2 from the foreign yard, if it is a must. While the remainder be split equally, between a Pvt and Public yard. Only then the capital investment, in the two lines can be amortised and cost per unit be brought down.

At the same time a number of nuke boats will have to be built and brought into service. For which we may a separate yard.


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